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Talakeal
2012-06-29, 05:42 PM
This thread has gone was off topic and into personal territory I am not comfortable discussion on an RPG forum. Requesting a lock.

Malak'ai
2012-06-29, 05:55 PM
First of all, NO it's not out of line for an enemy to laugh at the PC's. It's not out of line for them to insult, taunt, intimidate or threaten them. It's what enemies do!
As for motivating the player, have you tried sitting down with him on a non-game night and asking him how you can help him with building his character? If he leaves as many gaps and weaknesses as you say, then you might be able to coerce him into participating more by explaining it's needed for the fluff of his build.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-06-29, 06:10 PM
If it's clear that it's IC taunting from someone who should be expected to do it (the villain) it's just fine in my opinion.

As for this problem player. First, give him some time to calm down, talking to him when he's in a bad mood and has decided he's not enjoying himself will solve nothing.
When he's calm, talk to him out of a the game, see if you can find out what kind of games, movies, books and so on he likes and see if you can find out what he enjoys about them, try to incorporate it in the game. (Could be as simple as not caring for the genre you're playing)
Remind him that RP does award xp and less tangible benefits that can be called upon from time to time.

Ask him straight out what he truly, honestly would enjoy seeing in the game, see if you can incorporate it somehow. Heck even if it's something as ridiculous as dinosaurs with lasers try to work it into something that fits your setting better but can still be recognized for what it is.

And while he doesn't seem like the sort of person who'd accept help from others with his build, find some guides online on how to create well rounded characters (especially of the type he enjoys playing) and send them to him with the motivation of "Since you like the crunchy bits of the game I thought you'd get a kick out of this/find some inspiration/would find it interesting" or something to that effect, anything that sounds positive and encouraging.

Dienekes
2012-06-29, 06:19 PM
No, villains laugh. Or at least some of them do.

Second, dump the bugger he's a waste of space.

Averis Vol
2012-06-29, 06:39 PM
He needs to learn to relax. He, by your words, is a GROWN. ASS. MAN. If he feels the need to throw a temper tantrum over a game by this age your better off without ever playing with him again.

Honestly theres no helping people like him, atleast not in the realm of dnd. You might do well to ask him to go back to world of warcraft and create a new character (Hells if i know whats OP in that game anymore), gear up in BoA enchanted to the teeth and stay in the low pvp brackets.

If this sounds hostile it is unintentional. I honestly believe this is good advice for him.

And yea, villains laugh, constantly, at protagonists suffering, it's what makes them puppy kicking villains.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-29, 06:42 PM
To get the question out of the way early...why do you play with this 'man'? He's making pre-teens I know sound mature and insightful, if not toddlers I've met.

Synovia
2012-06-29, 06:44 PM
No, villains laugh. Or at least some of them do.

Second, dump the bugger he's a waste of space.

Agree. If he doesn't want to RP, and the rest of your group does, he needs to find a new group. It sounds to me like he'd be more at home playing a tabletop wargame, like WHFB or 40K.

Synovia
2012-06-29, 06:53 PM
Well, several reasons. First, he had been a member of our gaming group for well over a decade as well as a "friend"*.
Second, because I run homebrew that I need to playtest, and he is both more critical and better at mastering rules than anyone else in the group.
Third, we are short on players as is and have been unable to recruit more. If we cut someone else from the group it is really going to be tough going.

You sound like my battered-woman friend who keeps telling us that she can't find anyone better (She doesn't realize she can't find anyone better because she's in a relationship, and is never out of his sight).

You won't be able to recruit new players until you get rid of him. My group had the same problem with a player who was constantly causing problems. We'd get new players every once in a while, but they'd never come back for a second session. As soon as we got rid of him, we ended up with too many players.

Jarian
2012-06-29, 06:53 PM
*I put that word in quotes because he is not my friend anymore. About six years ago the rest of the group pulled out on gaming night and forced me to cancel a game I promised I would run for him. As a result he told me that I was not his friend anymore as he cannot be friends with someone who breaks their word, and to this day if anyone makes the mistake of referring to him as my friend he feels the need to correct them and relate a grossly distorted version of the story.

So, let's see here...

Childlike tantrum to reasonable* in-game events: check.
Refusal to admit own mistakes: check.
Playing a social game purely for the numbers**: check.
Holding a grudge for six years: check.

...why on earth would you want to play with this 'man'? Scale down the challenges, play without him. Boom, everyone's happy.

*If this is 3.5, the boss shouldn't have been able to act after a dimension door, but that's admissible handwaving in my opinion.

**Optimizing a character isn't bad, and taking pleasure out of making solid characters is perfectly fine. By your account, this is something entirely different, which is... odd.

Totally Guy
2012-06-29, 06:53 PM
Second, because I run homebrew that I need to playtest, and he is both more critical and better at mastering rules than anyone else in the group.

He does not value the things that I believe (from you other threads) you would have designed your game around. This makes him the last person you'd want to be giving feedback.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-29, 07:01 PM
You sound like my battered-woman friend who keeps telling us that she can't find anyone better (She doesn't realize she can't find anyone better because she's in a relationship, and is never out of his sight).

You won't be able to recruit new players until you get rid of him. My group had the same problem with a player who was constantly causing problems. We'd get new players every once in a while, but they'd never come back for a second session. As soon as we got rid of him, we ended up with too many players.

This is what I'm thinking, really. This person is unsalvageable as a gamer, and what little utility he offers as a game stress-tester is vastly outweighed by all the negatives. Does he have any redeeming character traits whatsoever besides being a human playtest dummy? Fun to watch sports and drink beer with in a non-game context? Always up for a spontaneous game of backyard basketball? A worthwhile member of the human race in any context?

Synovia
2012-06-29, 07:15 PM
The thing is, as long as you continue to allow him to act like a petulant child, hes going to keep pushing the boundaries and keep getting worse.

Sit him down, soften him up with some compliments (like, "hey, I love how you always find the loopholes and inconsistencies in my homebrew. Its really helping me get better at designing it"), and then hit him with it straight up (but you're ruining the game for everyone else by refusing to rp/stay calm/act like a human being)

Jay R
2012-06-29, 07:20 PM
To sum up:

He makes the game less fun for the other players.
He doesn't fit in with the gaming style at the table.
He will not help you find a way to make the game fun for him.
He's good at playtesting your rules.
He is not your friend.

Frankly, a party that's too small would be much better for everyone - including him. Playtesting isn't that important.*

If I were the DM, I would tell him, "The rules are fair, and I have applied them fairly. If you want a change made for your benefit, it's your job to figure out what it is, not mine. You will not be invited back to the game unless you come up with a way to ensure that you won't have a game-ruing tantrum."

*If you're planning to sell the game some day, you will eventually need complete playtesting, which you will find at a nearby con. If not, then any flaw that none of your players exploit isn't a problem.

Wyntonian
2012-06-29, 07:24 PM
To channel Dan Savage for a moment... DTMFA. (The first two words are "Dump the" and the last is "already")

Seriously, why is this guy even touching d&d if all he wants to do is build characters? Get him on an mmo, and away from the joyous, dramatic and fun social experience that a well-run game of D&D is, especially with a good group of friends.


Actually, quite the oppossite. He finds the things that I didn't intend. He finds all sorts of loopholes and exploits that I never even considered because I don't ever consider things outside of the context I intended them for.

Yeah.... these boards have a Homebrew section for a reason. We're all happy to help, and won't bitch and whine and screw up your game in the process.


Also, last panel is secretly talking about your guy. (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/15p54/)

Techsmart
2012-06-29, 07:25 PM
Gonna go with the majority here and say this guy is a pain. We used to have one of these similar kinds of "man-childs" in our dnd/magic the gathering group. Our group gradually grew smaller and smaller, because he kept scaring away new players. Eventually, one of us ("shifts eyes left and right") told him to go away and not come back until he learns be be more mature and a bit more tactful. He threw a temper tantrum, but eventually came back and was much more reserved. Now, our group has already been hurt pretty bad, as far as size goes, but it's slowly improving again. It sounds like he's not going to get any better unless he learns that being a pain in the rear will not be respected. Honestly, are you really walking away from dnd on most nights saying "Man, I only wish we could have done it longer!" If not, then it's time to boot him. If you can't get more people, is it worth having miserable games because of him just to be able to play an RPG?

also,

*If you're planning to sell the game some day, you will eventually need complete playtesting, which you will find at a nearby con. If not, then any flaw that none of your players exploit isn't a problem.
this
If your players know it's homebrew, and they find an exploit, a good playgroup will be willing to work with you when you say "Well, I intended *this*", will adjust and move on. If you are intending it for the sake of more than casual gaming, then your best thing to do is go to a convention and have a bunch of people test it. 10 people, even if they aren't all focused on exploiting rules, are going to find more flaws than one guy focusing on exploiting them.

Dienekes
2012-06-29, 09:19 PM
Well, several reasons. First, he had been a member of our gaming group for well over a decade as well as a "friend"*.
Second, because I run homebrew that I need to playtest, and he is both more critical and better at mastering rules than anyone else in the group.
Third, we are short on players as is and have been unable to recruit more. If we cut someone else from the group it is really going to be tough going.



No way, those games are more or less "fair", and he can't stand to be challenged, let alone lose.


*I put that word in quotes because he is not my friend anymore. About six years ago the rest of the group pulled out on gaming night and forced me to cancel a game I promised I would run for him. As a result he told me that I was not his friend anymore as he cannot be friends with someone who breaks their word, and to this day if anyone makes the mistake of referring to him as my friend he feels the need to correct them and relate a grossly distorted version of the story.

Why is this conversation even continuing? Drop him, then burn his character sheet. If he tries to talk back about how you're not being fair, say your problems with him and add "I could probably ignore all this for a friend, but unfortunately you don't qualify." And throw him out your door.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-06-29, 09:33 PM
He has the same "I don't care about fluff or mechanics, if I wanted to listen to a story I would read a book," for every RPG or video game he has ever played (and he plays a LOT of video games). The only times he ever seems to have fun in any sort of game is when he is crushing much less experianced players in a PVP video game, or in a tabletop RPG where he is using his awesome arcane power to torment and prank NPCs who are so far below his level that they can't possibly fight back or even realize what is going on.

I have tried several times asking him what he wants. His response is to shrug and say "Don't really care. Just try something, and I will tell you when I don't like it."

Yhea, so you've done your part. You've asked him what he wants, you've tried to accommodate him and he not only keeps up his behavior, but keeps getting worse? It's time to bring out the "Grow up or get out" ultimatum, who knows, he might even decide to act like a sensible person at the table. If not, you're down one player, scale your encounters to fit until you find someone to take his spot.

Also, and this is just food for thought, but if he's so focused on taking advantage of loopholes and making "perfect" builds, how many exploits does he find that he keeps quiet about?

TriForce
2012-06-30, 01:17 AM
honestly, im surprised you even bother remembering this guys name.

he doesnt want to be a friend of yours?
he doesnt want to play anything thats not positivly discriminating him?
he doesnt want to admit his own faults?


tell him to go play serieus sam or something like that and leave normal people alone

Honest Tiefling
2012-06-30, 01:32 AM
He's not your friend. He's throwing a tantrum. Where exactly do you live that you can't find PLAYERS? The Moon?

I'd ask your gaming group how they feel about him. If he's causing you pain and you are kind enough to DM...I think its time for a talk. Sounds like the guy really makes it unfun for you. If they don't like him either, ditch and replace. Find some new friends.

Knaight
2012-06-30, 01:45 AM
***: Also, the player in question is not a young person or new to RPGs, they are an adult and have been playing for atleast 15 years. They do, however, pride themselves on being stubborn and never compromising or forgiving.
Never compromising or forgiving is not a positive trait. It is a warning sign. Taking pride in that throws up a lot of red flags.


I put that word in quotes because he is not my friend anymore. About six years ago the rest of the group pulled out on gaming night and forced me to cancel a game I promised I would run for him. As a result he told me that I was not his friend anymore as he cannot be friends with someone who breaks their word, and to this day if anyone makes the mistake of referring to him as my friend he feels the need to correct them and relate a grossly distorted version of the story.
This is absurd. Publicly announcing dropping a friendship due to an appointment having to be canceled once is so far beyond the pale that it boggles the mind.


Honestly his behavior both at and away from the gaming table has been growing steadilly less pleasant as long as I have known him. I could give theories as to why this is, but this isn't really the time or the place for that.
Clearly. Ditch the guy, and never look back. He takes pride in being an unforgiving, uncompromising jerk who blows imaginary slights such as missing one appointment into full on vendettas. This is not a person you want in your life.

Zerter
2012-06-30, 01:58 AM
We've had problem players of similiar nature and well, get rid of him. Having a player just to keep it to a level of players that's acceptable is not worth all the negativity, he's probably keeping outsiders away even if they have never see him on account of making everyone less likely to make the sales pitch or be enthusiastic about it to anyone else.

There is an alternative, given the nature of the guy the truth is that this group and this game are probably really important to him. You can try confronting him 1-on-1 and inform he has to seriously change his behavior, if he has any sense that might work, though he'll probably just throw a tantrum and leave the group, blaming you in the process.

Also, if he does leave, tell him to seek professional help (not like you got anything left to lose in the relationship). He probably won't be open to it right now, but it might get stuck in the back of his mind and help him later on.

Xiander
2012-06-30, 02:23 AM
Is there any reason you can't make do with three players for a while?

It is not easy to ask a player to leave, but I know from personal experience that sometimes it is necessary.

Acanous
2012-06-30, 02:24 AM
Clearly, the solution is to resolve all future encounters by rap-battle.
The guy seems about that mature.

Ditch this person from your group. Get a new person, it's not that hard. You can:
Advertise on a cork-board at your local college
Put up a flyer in a nearby gaming store (Talk to the owner, it makes more repeat business for them if they foster the local gaming community)
Ask your Co-workers
Put up an ad on Craigslist.

That's just some really easy things to do with minimal effort. Kick this guy like he's Leeroy Jenkins.

Grimsage Matt
2012-06-30, 02:45 AM
Guy sounds like he has a bigger ego then Reggie Mantle, and a heapload of entiltlement issues. Not going to tell ya to do anything, but have you ever tried creating a situation were he had to RP? Not even that much, just a bit.

I'll link him later, but introduce him to Capone sometime. Kittle laid back divine power, show a bit of RP, he gives ya a blessing. Show zero tact? Dimension lock and shunted into a piña colada. Might teach him a lesson. And afterwords, you can give him the full details.

If the guys pure number crunching and build maker, he should be able to find a group that does that. Of course he probobly thinks their immature:smalltongue:

Jay R
2012-06-30, 06:25 AM
If the guys pure number crunching and build maker, he should be able to find a group that does that. Of course he probobly thinks their immature:smalltongue:

More importantly, he doesn't want to play with other characters as good as his, and he doesn't want to face challenges that he might lose.

No, he wants "incompetent" players he can blame all setbacks on, and a DM who will keep bending over backwards to try to accommodate him. And as long as he has that, he'll try to stay in the game.

The problem everybody has missed so far is that he lives where the game is being played. You can't show him the door; it's his door.

My recommendation is to move the game. I don't care how inappropriate another house or apartment is; you need to be able to choose the players.

(Besides, you don't need as large a place if the game's about to be smaller.)

Jack of Spades
2012-06-30, 06:47 AM
And yes, I know the overwhelming majority of advice is to show this player the door. And for the first time in my life I am really tempted to do this. The problem is we are already short on players and aren't able to find more, and the problem player is a tenant of the player who owns the house we play in, so he will be there whether we invite him or not.
The problem everybody has missed so far is that he lives where the game is being played. You can't show him the door; it's his door.

My recommendation is to move the game. I don't care how inappropriate another house or apartment is; you need to be able to choose the players.

(Besides, you don't need as large a place if the game's about to be smaller.)
Well you could always either politely ask him to leave (the room, the house, whatever will get him out of your hair) during game-time or ask the owner to have him do so (possibly not-so-politely). But given how this fella has been described thus far, I doubt that will help.

So, on the subject of moving: Given that you live in a place with houses, you probably live in a place that has a gaming store or two. Go to those if you have to. Most gaming stores have tables open for gaming, and you can reserve time for your game.

Grail
2012-06-30, 06:47 AM
No, villains laugh. Or at least some of them do.

Second, dump the bugger he's a waste of space.

QFT.
Simply, he offers nothing to the game, derails it and doesn't actually want to play. Just don't let him know when the next session is on.

Frenth Alunril
2012-06-30, 07:23 AM
I'm a sadist, sorry.

NPC satire time!

Next adventure, the all important linchpin npc needs to display similar if not verbatim dementia. Players approach for RP:

NPC: no reaction.
P1: "Ho there good fellow, word had it you daughter was taken by cultists."
NPC: "Words, words! I don't want words, I want action!"
P2: "Friend, we come to help!"
NPC: "You are no friend of mine, in fact, 6 years ago you said you would see me again, the next day, on the 4th of Gladberry. We were to discuss business plans and I would profit greatly, because I never fail. You, however, with your chicken heart and myopic view of the world set about with others on some fool's quest, causing me to miss the venture and eventual success.
P3: "seriously?" Looks to P2: "Is this for real?"
All players look problem player.
Problem player: "Whatever, let's just go fight already."
NPC: "I don't need your help, I'll do it on my own."

The swirling chaos that ensures will hopefully be a cathartic review of what the purpose of companionship and role play games should be. He wants everything to be about him and his awesomeness, then confront him with himself.

ThiagoMartell
2012-06-30, 07:36 AM
To get the question out of the way early...why do you play with this 'man'? He's making pre-teens I know sound mature and insightful, if not toddlers I've met.
This, so much this. Glyphstone as usual has words of wisdom to share.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-30, 08:56 AM
This, so much this. Glyphstone as usual has words of wisdom to share.

Even if comprehending them usually drives mortal men MAD?:smallsmile:

inexorabletruth
2012-06-30, 09:21 AM
I've got it.

All he enjoys is the crunch, right? Make him an NPC factory. He can build all your BBEGs and high ranking minions for you. His M.O. fits the bill for Bad-Guy builds perfectly: Overly-confident and min-maxed detrimentally. That's every mini-boss ever built! How about it? Do you think he'd enjoy playing the bad guys? It would mean he'd lose more often, but maybe it would be ok then, because he's supposed to lose.

And on a final note: it's not just okay for bad guys to laugh at the PCs. It's kind of expected- like monologuing or explaining how "we're not so different, you and I."

yougi
2012-06-30, 10:12 AM
I've got it.

All he enjoys is the crunch, right? Make him an NPC factory. He can build all your BBEGs and high ranking minions for you. His M.O. fits the bill for Bad-Guy builds perfectly: Overly-confident and min-maxed detrimentally. That's every mini-boss ever built! How about it? Do you think he'd enjoy playing the bad guys? It would mean he'd lose more often, but maybe it would be ok then, because he's supposed to lose.

And on a final note: it's not just okay for bad guys to laugh at the PCs. It's kind of expected- like monologuing or explaining how "we're not so different, you and I."

This, except I would not even let him play them. If he likes designing them, not playing them, well, there you go.

If all he wants is only to go on a power trip, then you'll have to go to Plan B (which honestly should be Plan A) and DTMFA.

Rorrik
2012-06-30, 11:32 AM
..."I don't care about your stupid storyline BS, get back to the game."

After the game I try and talk to him and he tells me that:
He does not enjoy storyline.
He does not enjoy roleplaying.
He does not enjoy tactical combat.
He does not enjoy puzzle solving.
He does not enjoy exploring the world.
He does not enjoy challenges (He told me this is because he never fails (seriously), when he loses a game it is either because someone cheated, the DM put him in an unfair situation, or the rest of the party was so incompetent it dragged him down.

He told me the only joy he got out of RPGs was creating the most powerful build* possible. The rest of the game is just a chore which he puts up with to get the XP and GP he needs to make his build work. Further he told me that he plans on quitting the game the moment he hits 20, because he doesn't actually want to PLAY his completed build (because that might shatter the illusion that it is all powerful I assume), and couldn't care less about finishing up my storyline or helping the other players complete their quest.

He's playing the wrong game. He only cares about one minor aspect of the game and so he's providing baggage for everyone else at the table just so he can get his "I am almighty" high. Recommend him some overly simple video (Fable or something from that genre) where focusing on one power can make him almighty, and don't let him selfishly use your D&D group anymore.

And yes, villains(and everyone else) should laugh at whiny little girls who like to pretend to be heroes.

Traab
2012-06-30, 02:18 PM
At first I thought this was going to be a topic about the morality of dealing with minmaxxed characters by intentionally targeting their weak points or something. Then I read further. He is an infantile jerk. He has an overblown opinion of his talent at making "powerful" characters, he cant handle anything that doesnt bow to his every will, and he poisons everything he touches with his attitude when things inevitably dont go his way. His childish grudge holding over a minor at best incident further proves that he isnt ready for games that involve interaction with others. Personally, I would be afraid to sit next to him, because I would worry that I might knock over my soda onto his lap and he would declare an eternal blood feud between our families unto the 20th generation.

Cut him loose. You may have problems with finding a new meeting place or a 4th player, but those are short term issues, this is a long term drain on everyones enjoyment and is going to destroy the group in the end anyways.

Ehra
2012-06-30, 02:32 PM
From the sound of things, I think he'd be happier just buying Diablo 2 or something and downloading a character builder.

CoffeeIncluded
2012-06-30, 02:38 PM
Why haven't you pulled him off your group like a bloated tick already?

Man on Fire
2012-06-30, 02:58 PM
i wouldn't bother, kick the guy out.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-06-30, 03:33 PM
How do you resist the urge to physically assault this d-bag? "People" like that make my blood boil. :smallfurious:

Xerinous
2012-06-30, 04:12 PM
Have you tried shock therapy? I find a few volts usually sort out problem players rather handily.

TheThan
2012-06-30, 04:19 PM
Yes its perfectly ok to have your villains cackle manically I mean laugh at the heroes.

As far as motivation, I’ve learned that some people can’t be motivated by other people. Sometimes people just don’t get motivated about the game, others are there for one thing, and nothing will satisfy them until they get that one thing. It won’t matter what you try to do to get them motivated they will refuse to be until they get their kick. Others, just need to find their motivation.

Now you’ve stated you can’t really kick him out of your group yet (I strongly suggest you find someone to replace him, then give him the boot). You’ve already stated that you’ve talked to him and that hasn’t resolved the issue, so my suggestion is to play as normal and just let his rants come. Then tell him to shut up and play like he’s got a pair or leave, either way, you’re not going to let him disrupt your game anymore. Then when he drops out of the group for the adventure or TPs back to town, just carry on as if nothing has happened and he never existed. Eventually he’ll stop showing up (strong chance he’ll just pack up and leave right then and there) and your problem will solve itself. If he gets angry at you, remind him that you’re not friends anymore, by HIS choice.

Ranting Fool
2012-06-30, 05:11 PM
From the sound of things, I think he'd be happier just buying Diablo 2 or something and downloading a character builder.

hehe I really do like Diablo games, tell him to go play number 3 :smallbiggrin: lots of mindless killing in a game which is rather easy.

Since all constructive things have already been said I'll just nod and agree with all the other posters :smallbiggrin:

NPC's in my world, Mock, Laugh, Cheer, Boo, Make rude gestures at, Scream and run away from, Scream and charge towards, Worship, Hate, Imitate, Hunt, Kill, Resurrect, Eat, Feed, Steal from, Frisk, Poison, Hide, Giggle at and many other random things.

kyoryu
2012-06-30, 05:58 PM
(He told me this is because he never fails (seriously), when he loses a game it is either because someone cheated, the DM put him in an unfair situation, or the rest of the party was so incompetent it dragged him down.

Actually, this is all I need to see.

DMTFA.

Grimsage Matt
2012-06-30, 06:37 PM
dude, there is no pleasing this jerk. Take him behind the shed and put him out of your misery! Just hide the body. Or videotape a session or two and show it to the cops. And expalin that it was a good/typical game for him. You might get a medal.

But in all seriousness, ditch the SOB. And do it in a way that lets him know how much of a pain not only you, but all the other guys find it. It won't save him, your not god/the devil (And they have doubts), but it will save the people that aren't little bastards.

And another good idea. Show him this thread. Sure, he'll claim that your being a biased jerk, but he's a narrowminded little min maxer that couldn't grow up if his life depended on it.

JoshuaZ
2012-06-30, 06:42 PM
He does play Diablo 3. I am told that when he runs into a situation that kills him "unavoidably" as certain power combinations do, he screams and rants at the other players and then quits the game for several hours to punish it for cheating him.

If this is accurate then there's really no hope for the guy. I almost thought that some of the other stuff might be have been fixable if you talked to him about it, but this really shows that it isn't just a D&D problem. This person has serious anger issues with probably a healthy side-order of Dunning-Kruger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).

SowZ
2012-06-30, 06:55 PM
It is much more fun to play in a group with three players and a GM than four players and a GM where one of the players just wants to be disruptive.

Players can be disruptive on accident by taking the spotlight too much, building characters that overshadow others, being too quick to pvp, etc. I know at some point or another I have been guilty of most of those as have others I've played with. But generally, this can be fixed by talking to the person. Even if they get offended when you bring it up, the next week come game time they usually want to be viewed positively and so will try and tone down the problem behavior.

But we were all lied to as kindergartners when we were told we shouldn't care what other people think. I mean, I understand and agree with the 'intent' of being who we want to be, but those that truly don't care what others think are typically jerks. This guy sounds mildly sociopathic if you are presenting him correctly and I am sure you can run a game without him using a small group.

Does he make everyone else uncomfortable? Most people 'do' care about others so they may not feel good about talking to you about it. But if you ask them, they will probably tell you.

Ehra
2012-06-30, 07:49 PM
He does play Diablo 3. I am told that when he runs into a situation that kills him "unavoidably" as certain power combinations do, he screams and rants at the other players and then quits the game for several hours to punish it for cheating him.

I'm surprised he plays the game at all. Isn't the entire game just a waste of time until he finally has his super duper uber final build set up?

From your description earlier, he seems like the sort of person who goes into the Elder Scrolls map editor and drops the best loot in the game right by the starter area.

Network
2012-06-30, 07:49 PM
Have you tried to do a game session, just with him?

I'm not sure it will actually work, but if he accepts, maybe you will find what he likes. Because if I understood correctly, that's what he blame you for.

If it doesn't work, you could always try Frenth Alunril's idea? I'm not saying any of the two will make him a better player, but pushing him out of the game should never be plan A.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-30, 08:41 PM
Have you tried to do a game session, just with him?

I'm not sure it will actually work, but if he accepts, maybe you will find what he likes. Because if I understood correctly, that's what he blame you for.

If it doesn't work, you could always try Frenth Alunril's idea? I'm not saying any of the two will make him a better player, but pushing him out of the game should never be plan A.

We know what he likes. Unfortunately, what he likes is not conducive to anything another human being should have to suffer through being forced to participate in.

Rorrik
2012-06-30, 10:53 PM
He would never do that. As far as I can tell he only plays games to prove his own superiority over the game, and using the map editor would only prove that he needed to cheat and was thus fallible.

Except he's the one who gets to define what cheating is. When the game does beat him fair and square, he gives it the silent treatment(because it cheated, making it conscious, meaning the silent treatment does effect it's one-zero heart).

Honestly, if he thinks the mechanical predictability of video games breaks some inherent rule, I don't know how he's managed free wheeling tabletop for 15 years without bursting a blood vessel.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-06-30, 11:12 PM
He does play Diablo 3. I am told that when he runs into a situation that kills him "unavoidably" as certain power combinations do, he screams and rants at the other players and then quits the game for several hours to punish it for cheating him.

This is going to sound horribly hostile and insulting, but if you're portraying him properly, are you sure he hasn't stopped taking some form of medication? And if not, you might want to suggest he sees a professional, because this is not normal, adult human behavior and it'd most likely help him in more ways than one to get it under control.

But yhea, I'm with the others, find somewhere else to play and drop him.

INDYSTAR188
2012-06-30, 11:19 PM
First let me say I can sympathize with your problem. We had a really uncomfortable gaming session last Saturday. I was accused of 'cheating' as DM and also being 'too prepared' by the same player. I know you can't kick him out of his own house and removing him from game would probably make it awkward for everyone (maybe more than it already is). I have three suggestions:

- (already mentioned) find somewhere else to game!
- talk to him, give him an ultimatum, "we find some common ground to make this fun for everyone or you don't play with us"
- ask him if he wants to guest DM or help you set up the encounters/baddies

I think the last suggestion might be the best. It allows him to gain the 'control' he clearly desires, while at the same time takes him out of the RP/regular part of the game. Additionally, he'll get a chance to see how much prep work and time goes into setting up a game for your friends enjoyment. It's possible that by bringing him in as a co-DM/DM assistant you and he might be able to mend your relationship, but I wouldn't hold my breath! Good luck friend, that's sad to hear and just ridiculous behavior for a roommate/friend/player/adult/human being.

SowZ
2012-06-30, 11:41 PM
First let me say I can sympathize with your problem. We had a really uncomfortable gaming session last Saturday. I was accused of 'cheating' as DM and also being 'too prepared' by the same player. I know you can't kick him out of his own house and removing him from game would probably make it awkward for everyone (maybe more than it already is). I have three suggestions:

- (already mentioned) find somewhere else to game!
- talk to him, give him an ultimatum, "we find some common ground to make this fun for everyone or you don't play with us"
- ask him if he wants to guest DM or help you set up the encounters/baddies

I think the last suggestion might be the best. It allows him to gain the 'control' he clearly desires, while at the same time takes him out of the RP/regular part of the game. Additionally, he'll get a chance to see how much prep work and time goes into setting up a game for your friends enjoyment. It's possible that by bringing him in as a co-DM/DM assistant you and he might be able to mend your relationship, but I wouldn't hold my breath! Good luck friend, that's sad to hear and just ridiculous behavior for a roommate/friend/player/adult/human being.

Is the OP even interested in repairing the relationship, though? I mean, it sounds like there is no love lost on either side there. I fear this guy behind the screen won't feel satisfied unless he kills a player a session and then boasts about how he does it with only CR appropriate creatures so he must just run them well. I don't know him, but that is my fear. It may be worth a shot, but maybe allow him to build the NPCs and then you run them. Of course, you run the risk of, "running them wrong," and earning his ire even more.

HeadlessMermaid
2012-07-01, 01:56 AM
Actually, quite the oppossite. He finds the things that I didn't intend. He finds all sorts of loopholes and exploits that I never even considered because I don't ever consider things outside of the context I intended them for.

For example, if there is a metamagic which says "Spell has double normal effect, but the target gets a +10 saving throw bonus" he is the guy who triesto apply it to "save=no" spells or "save=harmless" spells cast on allies.
Is that the only reason you haven't shown him the door yet? If yes, I don't think it's worth it.

First of all, I'm assuming that your homebrew system isn't intended for publishing, if it's just for you and your friends, right? Then it doesn't really matter if it's exploitable - as long as no one actually exploits it. If the other players (the ones you enjoy playing with) don't find loopholes, then kick out the problem player, and poof! magic: there are no loopholes. A tree that falls in the forest and all that.

Of course, making up a solid system is an enjoyment in itself. So it's perfectly understandable to seek ways to improve it. But the solution you found - effectively getting this guy to playtest it - defeats the ENTIRE purpose, which is to play the game and have a good time! Try other ways. Go to the homebrew section of this forum, post your ruleset and ask for feedback. Recruit other players. Try to get into his mindset (completely ignore fluff, see mechanics as a tool to powergame and nothing else), and try to figure out loopholes yourself. Etc.

P.S. I never rush to suggest "kick out the player!" to disgruntled DMs, or "find another DM!" to disgruntled players. I usually think of compromise first, and sorting out things with civilized honest discussion. But what you have described is clearly a situation where one man's enjoyment directly precludes the enjoyment of all the rest - and vice versa. There's no need to torment yourselves like that, IMO.

Lhurgyof
2012-07-01, 02:30 AM
Something that caught my eye is the fact the avatar attacked after a D-door. Isn't that impossible?
But you should probably talk with him outside the game about it. Like, after he's cooled down. If he is still the same way, it may be time to show him the door.

Zerter
2012-07-01, 05:19 AM
The PC is totally in the right. He indicated from a early phase what his playstyle was, was told that was okay and suddenly gets killed by a creature that has made up powers (quickened dimension door followed by a one kill blow in the same round? I don't think so) that are specifically designed to counter the well thought out contingencies (as in more than one, though he never imagined he needed a contingency to follow to this particular contingency so closely) that make up the player's defenses.

After seeing his own carefully thought out character die he has to sit there and watch some cookiecutter build be successful in combating the avatar in the dumbest way possible (i are do melee attack!!!) only to see the avatar suddenly change for that to be even more effective.

Next thing the avatar specifically targets him in his mocking and laughter, obviously reflecting the DMs feeling, even though the players the DM is obviously biased towards (given the way this combat goes) get nothing. Nothing. While he gets mocked.

Instead of making a big issue of it and ruining the session, he decides to put aside his hurt emotions for the sake of the group and goes into a meditative state. Putting himself at ease in a mature way, confronting the DM afterwards and explaining why he feels he is being targetted.

He knows the DM does not like him, years before he was promised something that the DM knew was important to him (someone that he considered a friend) and he blew him off for no good reason without admitting it was a big deal. Ever since he has tolerated the DM for the sake of the group, but the two-face has remained a jerk.

Even worse, the DM goes behind his back to make him look bad on gaming forums, despite all the effort he has put into making the homebrew work and the good critique he gives.

Grail
2012-07-01, 05:39 AM
Yup, get rid of him.

Destro_Yersul
2012-07-01, 05:41 AM
*snip*

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or trying to explain PC's view here. The dimension door thing has been explained as homebrew coupled with an absurdly low amount of HP on the part of the PC.

For myself, I say get rid of the guy. He's going to be that immature, well, adjusting encounters for a lower number of PCs isn't all that hard.

Frenth Alunril
2012-07-01, 06:44 AM
Something that caught my eye is the fact the avatar attacked after a D-door. Isn't that impossible?

I'm pretty sure that divine avatars get awesome action bonuses. I know that deities get a number of actions per round that is equal to their divine rank. This, being the god of space, dd would kind of be like breathing, no?

...Just making the counter example.

Looking at the OP's plight again, should you want to salvage the situation, it will with fall on the lines of the problem player accepting fluff, because the fluff in the mechanics, god of space gets a free dd, is outside of his understanding of the rules. Or, you will need a personal confrontation to understand the problem player, because his perception may be generation misunderstandings, which come across a bad behavior.

At the end of the day, it just may turn out the guy is not worth fixing, or, you might get a friend back.

Ranting Fool
2012-07-01, 07:08 AM
This person has serious anger issues with probably a healthy side-order of Dunning-Kruger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).

LOL thanks you for this link! It has made quite a few of my mates laugh as the longer you game the higher the odds are of bumping into someone like this :smallbiggrin::smallcool::smalltongue:

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-01, 09:39 AM
On attacking after using D-Door. Can't Blink Dogs do that too? So why not have a avatar of space have a abillity that lets him use D-Door as a move action, then continue? Precedent is there.

Edit; Also on the cirt thing.... Take a look at the Unliving subtype. Sure, it's for undead, but it allows you to get a crit on one. If you have at least 1 rank in Knowledge(Relgion). Do the same with avatars. If you don't know the relgious stuff, no crit for you.

Also, having low hp and only relying on a contingency teleport? Should have had bears endurance and false life active. Of course, that propably wouldn't help his build's damage output.

Network
2012-07-01, 10:02 AM
LOL thanks you for this link! It has made quite a few of my mates laugh as the longer you game the higher the odds are of bumping into someone like this :smallbiggrin::smallcool::smalltongue:

He may just as well be asperger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome). I mean, it can explain almost anything from his tantrums to his ability to find loopholes in the homebrew you make. Especially if it's hard for him to make friends (if he has some at all).

I'm not saying he is, it's just a theory (probably the last non-medical condition we can think of). Did you tried any of the suggestions, other than pushing him out of the game? You don't talk that much about what you tried since...

The Random NPC
2012-07-01, 11:20 AM
Something that caught my eye is the fact the avatar attacked after a D-door. Isn't that impossible?
But you should probably talk with him outside the game about it. Like, after he's cooled down. If he is still the same way, it may be time to show him the door.

Homebrew system, I would assume D-door works differently.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-01, 11:48 AM
on the d-door thing: even within the normal system that's something a decently built gish could do; much less a home-brewed divine avatar. trace teleport is in CAr and a quickened DD or teleport is core.

edit: okay so trace teleport isn't in CAr, but I'm dead-certain it exists. I'll come back and edit this when I find it, unless someone else posts its location before then.

The Random NPC
2012-07-01, 12:13 PM
on the d-door thing: even within the normal system that's something a decently built gish could do; much less a home-brewed divine avatar. trace teleport is in CAr and a quickened DD or teleport is core.

edit: okay so trace teleport isn't in CAr, but I'm dead-certain it exists. I'll come back and edit this when I find it, unless someone else posts its location before then.

It is in the Book of Eldritch Might page 22 and Expanded Psionics Handbook page 139.

SowZ
2012-07-01, 01:42 PM
He may just as well be asperger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome). I mean, it can explain almost anything from his tantrums to his ability to find loopholes in the homebrew you make. Especially if it's hard for him to make friends (if he has some at all).

I'm not saying he is, it's just a theory (probably the last non-medical condition we can think of). Did you tried any of the suggestions, other than pushing him out of the game? You don't talk that much about what you tried since...

But aspergers isn't sociopathy and I would not excuse this kind of behavior, assuming it is being portrayed accurately, just because of it. People I know with aspergers still have control over their own behavior and while they may hurt feelings or something accidentally, they usually won't knowingly do so. I mean, sure, he could have this but it doesn't make any of these actions less jerk-like.

KillianHawkeye
2012-07-01, 01:53 PM
I put up with a lot of crap to get my gaming fix, but I would not play with this guy. I would rather quit the group myself if expelling him is not an option.

Sutremaine
2012-07-01, 02:00 PM
But aspergers isn't sociopathy and I would not excuse this kind of behavior, assuming it is being portrayed accurately, just because of it.
I thought of the guy having some form of autism when the OP was talking about the lack of compromise and the loophole-finding. The guy's still a jerk though, it's just that Asperger's (if he has it) would colour the way in which he is a jerk.

I would suggest introducing him to Dwarf Fortress and finding somewhere else to play your D&D games.

INDYSTAR188
2012-07-01, 02:06 PM
*snip*

I feel that either you are the player in question or you're someone who had a similar situation. Either way, the point is that we're talking about grown men playing a social game in whats supposed to be a friendly setting. The DM and player need to sit down and figure out their personal differences. It would make the game a lot more fun for everyone, especially the three other players.

VanBuren
2012-07-01, 02:34 PM
Actually, quite the oppossite. He finds the things that I didn't intend. He finds all sorts of loopholes and exploits that I never even considered because I don't ever consider things outside of the context I intended them for.

For example, if there is a metamagic which says "Spell has double normal effect, but the target gets a +10 saving throw bonus" he is the guy who triesto apply it to "save=no" spells or "save=harmless" spells cast on allies.

With the amount of optimization that goes on around here, theoretical or otherwise, I have no doubt that the people at GitP could do just as good a job of that (perhaps better, what with their being multiple people with varying playstyles looking at the rules) all without the drawbacks of being a complete ****.

Well, mostly. :smallwink:


Is the OP even interested in repairing the relationship, though? I mean, it sounds like there is no love lost on either side there. I fear this guy behind the screen won't feel satisfied unless he kills a player a session and then boasts about how he does it with only CR appropriate creatures so he must just run them well. I don't know him, but that is my fear. It may be worth a shot, but maybe allow him to build the NPCs and then you run them. Of course, you run the risk of, "running them wrong," and earning his ire even more.

Where are you getting that?


This is going to sound horribly hostile and insulting, but if you're portraying him properly, are you sure he hasn't stopped taking some form of medication? And if not, you might want to suggest he sees a professional, because this is not normal, adult human behavior and it'd most likely help him in more ways than one to get it under control.

But yhea, I'm with the others, find somewhere else to play and drop him.

How do you convince someone like that to see a professional? He seems like the kind of person who would take that as a personal attack, no matter how well-intentioned.


The PC is totally in the right. He indicated from a early phase what his playstyle was, was told that was okay and suddenly gets killed by a creature that has made up powers (quickened dimension door followed by a one kill blow in the same round? I don't think so) that are specifically designed to counter the well thought out contingencies (as in more than one, though he never imagined he needed a contingency to follow to this particular contingency so closely) that make up the player's defenses.

His playstyle, of course, stepping on everyone else who is into the story. His build, cripplingly overspecialized to the point that a single hit killed him. The abilities, certainly part of the homebrew system--and apparently even possible in Vanilla.


After seeing his own carefully thought out character die he has to sit there and watch some cookiecutter build be successful in combating the avatar in the dumbest way possible (i are do melee attack!!!) only to see the avatar suddenly change for that to be even more effective.

>implying that he's justified in feeling upset because someone else is doing well when they didn't overspecialize like he did.

And the change was because someone suggested the DM might have one of the rules wrong, and so the DM double-checked and realized this was so. Clearly, the ability to admit a mistake and adjust the game to compensate is the mark of a terrible DM.


Next thing the avatar specifically targets him in his mocking and laughter, obviously reflecting the DMs feeling, even though the players the DM is obviously biased towards (given the way this combat goes) get nothing. Nothing. While he gets mocked.

Probably because the villain didn't one-shot the the oher players.


Instead of making a big issue of it and ruining the session, he decides to put aside his hurt emotions for the sake of the group and goes into a meditative state. Putting himself at ease in a mature way, confronting the DM afterwards and explaining why he feels he is being targetted.

Shouting at the brink of crying while making a scene is considered the mature way? I'm gonna call my parents; I always knew I was unjustly imprisoned in that corner when I was 4.


He knows the DM does not like him, years before he was promised something that the DM knew was important to him (someone that he considered a friend) and he blew him off for no good reason without admitting it was a big deal. Ever since he has tolerated the DM for the sake of the group, but the two-face has remained a jerk.

He "blew him off" because everyone else had already backed out, making it impossible to do anyway. Regardless, it was six years ago. And if you're going to hold a grudge over a tabletop game for six years, then regardless of the circumstances, you're blowing it way out of proportion. Remember, tabletop game.


Even worse, the DM goes behind his back to make him look bad on gaming forums, despite all the effort he has put into making the homebrew work and the good critique he gives.

What.

Jarian
2012-07-01, 02:52 PM
Shouting at the brink of crying while making a scene is considered the mature way? I'm gonna call my parents; I always knew I was unjustly imprisoned in that corner when I was 4.

I have the sudden desire to sig this.

SowZ
2012-07-01, 03:04 PM
Where are you getting that?


From how the OP is describing him, it seems like he may want a smooth game but does not seem that interested in being friends. It sounds like he has little respect or at least little like for him.

Network
2012-07-01, 03:11 PM
I thought of the guy having some form of autism when the OP was talking about the lack of compromise and the loophole-finding. The guy's still a jerk though, it's just that Asperger's (if he has it) would colour the way in which he is a jerk.

I would suggest introducing him to Dwarf Fortress and finding somewhere else to play your D&D games.

Maybe the guy isn't, it was just a reply to what someone said on the thread. However autist people don't understand the feelings of others (to a certain point). So one can be a total jerk and not knowing why ''everyone is against him'' (at least until he is told, if he decide realise it was bad). It's even worse if they are immature or didn't work on their social problems (and if someone doesn't know he/she is, it's probably the case).

Knaight
2012-07-01, 03:22 PM
Maybe the guy isn't, it was just a reply to what someone said on the thread. However autist people don't understand the feelings of others (to a certain point). So one can be a total jerk and not knowing why ''everyone is against him'' (at least until he is told, if he decide realise it was bad). It's even worse if they are immature or didn't work on their social problems (and if someone doesn't know he/she is, it's probably the case).

Plenty of people with autism have functioning social skills, and being narcissistic is not a symptom of autism. Your painting people with autism with the same brush as the guy being talked about does not excuse any of his actions, and merely insults everyone with autism.

Furthermore, I'd note that, with the exception of you there is a unanimous push for removal. Said unanimous push is coming from a whole bunch of posters who almost never agree with each other on anything, which is probably a sign that something is very wrong.

VanBuren
2012-07-01, 03:24 PM
From how the OP is describing him, it seems like he may want a smooth game but does not seem that interested in being friends. It sounds like he has little respect or at least little like for him.

From the OP's description, he respects his ability to find flaws and critique his system, and he's reached out on multiple occasions. Whatever bad intent you're seeing isn't present in the OP's account of things.


I have the sudden desire to sig this.

Aw, schucks. :smallredface:

SowZ
2012-07-01, 03:28 PM
From the OP's description, he respects his ability to find flaws and critique his system, and he's reached out on multiple occasions. Whatever bad intent you're seeing isn't present in the OP's account of things.



Aw, schucks. :smallredface:

I'm not saying the OP is being aggressive or spiteful. It just sounds like he legitimately does not like him. People have said, "He sounds like he is like this..." and the OP will say, "It is worse than that." I mean, it doesn't sound like he wants to have a worse relationship, it just sounds like he dislikes him. I didn't see the OP asking for how to repair the relationship, just how to repair the group, but you are right I am making an assumption. I suppose the OP can comment on it or not. I'm being a little presumptuous, sure.

VanBuren
2012-07-01, 03:39 PM
I'm not saying the OP is being aggressive or spiteful. It just sounds like he legitimately does not like him. People have said, "He sounds like he is like this..." and the OP will say, "It is worse than that." I mean, it doesn't sound like he wants to have a worse relationship, it just sounds like he dislikes him. I didn't see the OP asking for how to repair the relationship, just how to repair the group, but you are right I am making an assumption. I suppose the OP can comment on it or not. I'm being a little presumptuous, sure.

You said you "feared he won't be satisfied until he kills a player a session". How can that be parsed in a way that isn't aggressive or spiteful?

Knaight
2012-07-01, 03:44 PM
You said you "feared he won't be satisfied until he kills a player a session". How can that be parsed in a way that isn't aggressive or spiteful?

It's only aggressive or spiteful if it isn't a correct assumption.

SowZ
2012-07-01, 03:54 PM
You said you "feared he won't be satisfied until he kills a player a session". How can that be parsed in a way that isn't aggressive or spiteful?

Wait, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the guy that kills a player or two a session or the OP? I thought we were talking about my statement that the OP doesn't seem interested in being friends with the problem player.

OH, wait, I see what we are talking about now. Okay, yeah, I was confused.

I am saying that if the problem player is being presented correctly and enjoys making builds to beat others builds and hates losing at all, I fear if he runs monsters he will actively try and kill the PCs. This could be off, sure, and it may be worth a try, but I would be careful making this move if I was the DM. I am not saying he 'will' act this way, but it is perfectly reasonable to fear it. If the OP isn't exaggerating the other player, it sounds like he could act that way.

Vinyadan
2012-07-01, 03:59 PM
*I put that word in quotes because he is not my friend anymore. About six years ago the rest of the group pulled out on gaming night and forced me to cancel a game I promised I would run for him. As a result he told me that I was not his friend anymore as he cannot be friends with someone who breaks their word, and to this day if anyone makes the mistake of referring to him as my friend he feels the need to correct them and relate a grossly distorted version of the story.

I couldn't but remember this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html

Are you sure you are not better off playing without him?

Network
2012-07-01, 04:09 PM
Plenty of people with autism have functioning social skills, and being narcissistic is not a symptom of autism. Your painting people with autism with the same brush as the guy being talked about does not excuse any of his actions, and merely insults everyone with autism.

Maybe it was a mistake of mine to aboard the subject, and I don't think it will help to talk about it longer, but :
[The asperger syndrome] is characterized by qualitative impairment in social interaction

And there's already an hypothesis on violent predispositions for them, but I don't trust it anyway. The problem player is a jerk, but I tried to suggest why he remains so. As I said, it was just what I was thinking when I was reading the thread. I can't actually make any affirmation, and I think not many people on this forum can.

VanBuren
2012-07-01, 04:15 PM
Wait, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the guy that kills a player or two a session or the OP? I thought we were talking about my statement that the OP doesn't seem interested in being friends with the problem player.

OH, wait, I see what we are talking about now. Okay, yeah, I was confused.

I am saying that if the problem player is being presented correctly and enjoys making builds to beat others builds and hates losing at all, I fear if he runs monsters he will actively try and kill the PCs. This could be off, sure, and it may be worth a try, but I would be careful making this move if I was the DM. I am not saying he 'will' act this way, but it is perfectly reasonable to fear it.

Oh, I think I get it now. Sorry, I think I got confused somewhere along the line. With that statement, you were referring to the problem player. I thought you meant the OP/DM.

...

Is this the part where the episode ends with us all having a hearty chuckle?

Knaight
2012-07-01, 04:19 PM
Maybe it was a mistake of mine to aboard the subject, and I don't think it will help to talk about it longer, but :

"Impairment in social situations" refers more to difficulties reading body language, limited understanding of taboos, limited understanding of what is appropriate when, etc. It does not refer to being a completely and utterly self centered jerk, which is what is in question here.

HeadlessMermaid
2012-07-01, 05:02 PM
For example anyone who remembers this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177942

Where he didn't like how the game turned out and so he blew up, killed off his own character, and tainted the memory of a six year game that would have otherwise stood out in my mind as the longest and most successful I had ever ran.
Umm... having read only the OP of that thread, it seems that it wasn't one player who killed off his own character, but all except one. Big difference there, and not something that can be written off as a single guy being a jerk.

I'd also like to note that, unless I'm missing crucial information, it didn't sound like a "taint" to me at all. OK, it wasn't a happy ending, but it was a powerful ending. A twist. A tragic ending with the appropriate bodycount. A question mark (who was in the right, who was in the wrong, we leave that as an exercise for the reader).

And in any case, considering that it was the epilogue, and that the players didn't destroy the game prematurely just because they didn't like something, I fail to see the problem. :smallconfused: Well, maybe you didn't like the ending. That's a matter of taste. But "taint"? Why take it so personally?

Grimsage Matt
2012-07-01, 05:39 PM
K, have a idea for him. Let him make a new system, complete with rules, monsters and all that. And then, becuase he made it, he has to DM it. And as he's DMing it, nothing can go wrong right:smallamused:

Also, find a way for him to see this thread. He'll probobly think it was about someone else anyway:smallamused:

Fatebreaker
2012-07-01, 06:50 PM
First, Talakeal, if this player is a problem in your game, remove him from your game and take the steps necessary to keep playing with the folks who make you happy. If you're running the game, you can be wrong, but you can't let problems fester. This is not a problem which will be solved except by swift, decisive action. Boot him and move on.

Second, regarding your previous thread, that kind of ending would be incredibly appropriate (if handled properly) in other genres. As the conclusion of a Legend of the Five Rings game, it would be amazing. But, regardless of the validity of their actions (that is, whether they were right or wrong), it sounds like the execution was poor and the attitude wasn't aimed at making a better story so much as being spiteful. That's a shame, because it could have been a really awesome, bittersweet ending. The world was healed, but at the price of the same heroes who saved it. So, a shame that it turned out so poorly, because the same actions executed differently would have been amazing. If nothing else, though, that attitude highlights what a long-term problem this player has been.

Third, yes, NPCs can (and should!) laugh now and then at the PCs, if that's entirely within their character. You can do all sorts of "rude" behavior if it's in-character and handled maturely on all ends. If it's appropriate for the characters involved, power to you. That can really motivate characters.

Your game will be all the better for ditching a long-term problem. Trust me. I've run plenty of three-player (plus me) games, and they're a hoot. In same cases, they run even better, because it's more time for everyone to shine. Don't let the quantity of players inhibit the quality of players.

Good luck!

Grail
2012-07-01, 06:50 PM
Ok, time to get serious.

All players in a game have a responsibility to the other players, inclusive of the GM. If this player is disrupting the game, you need to discuss it with the other players. Dropping a player who is "playing up" isn't the responsibility of the GM, it is a responsibility owned by the entire group. As a group you need to make the decision to either expel or continue. If you continue, then you need to make the decision as a group whether to accept the status quo or to ask him to change his play style.

Don't carry the weight of this alone.

If the other players kind of get all sheepish about making the decision, force it upon them to take responsibility. Insist on them that they need to encourage him to change his ways.

One player in a group can cause the entire group to become fractured and disband, permanently. You all need to curb this, one way or the other, before that happens.

Gaming is supposed to be fun, as soon as it isn't, players will suddenly have other things that they need to do, or that they've organised to be at and then the game dies for everyone.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-01, 06:54 PM
So yeah, I think everyone here (except the guy who was being sarcastic) is in agreement - this man-child is poisonous to your game. You don't think you can 'fix' him, as you say, and it's pretty obvious that his presence is the reason your small group can't get any new people to join. That means you basically have to put up with him, or remove him from the group; if you choose the former, that's also effectively relinquishing the right to complain about him. It can be difficult to boot someone you've been acquainted with for so long, but it'll be better for your entire group in the long run.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-07-01, 08:26 PM
So yeah, I think everyone here (except the guy who was being sarcastic) is in agreement - this man-child is poisonous to your game.

Aye.

If you want to get feedback from system masters (real system masters, not a min-maxer who thinks that a godling that has limited control over the very concept of distance can be defended against with a Contingent Dimension Door), just post your stuff in the homebrew section.

dps
2012-07-01, 08:40 PM
I run homebrew that I need to playtest, and he is both more critical and better at mastering rules than anyone else in the group.



IMO, you need to separate playtesting from running games for your group to play. Use this guy as a playtester/developer for your games, not as a member of your gaming group. He sounds like a good playtester, but a bad gamer.

dps
2012-07-01, 08:55 PM
Also, that is the problem with homebrew. I have to sell new players a system, myself as a GM, and myself as a person. In the past every new player I brought objected to one of the three, or simply didn't have the time or inclination to play a game full time. Maybe it was the other problem players chasing them away and I just didn't notice, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


Also, some people don't want to playtest--they just want to play. It's not the same thing. The best way to playtest games, theoretically (probably), is to use paid playtesters, but very few designers have the financial resources to do that.

BTW, where are you located? If you're near where I live, I might be willing to get involved in your game.

Grail
2012-07-01, 09:15 PM
Also, if you want to playtest, have you thought about doing it via PbP? A little bit slower, but you'd get players that are not emotionally caught up in this as your friends/acquaintances or cruel nemesis.

dps
2012-07-01, 09:20 PM
Currently Northern California.

I'm in North Carolina. Too bad, wrong NC.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-02, 01:43 AM
I know a lot of people have responded and I'm basically in consensus with them. But I have a twist of an idea.

If he constantly calls you out for cancelling your gaming night one time and says you aren't friends, put him on the spot. Get the other players to go intervention style (making sure first that all are in consensus). The tricky thing is that you telling him to shape up or find a new game will probably just result in him throwing a fit and not playing, but if you get the group to all come at him and explain the situation, if they all are willing and in agreement and are willing to try to be more civil (far more than I could be), then maybe you have a tiny chance of getting him to change his mind. And if not, at least you'll have the chance to shame him in front of a bunch of people all just as tired of him as you are.

onthetown
2012-07-02, 09:54 AM
He does not enjoy storyline.


Well... okay, that's okay. You can kick in the door without storyline. Just go in the dungeon and smash things.



He does not enjoy roleplaying.


Um... still... you know, still kind of okay. I mean, nameless elf sorcerer can just blast stuff, doesn't need to roleplay. Sure, the act of creating a character and blasting stuff is roleplay, but...



He does not enjoy tactical combat.
He does not enjoy puzzle solving.
He does not enjoy exploring the world.


Okay, sure. No tactical combat, just blasting stuff. Blasting = victory. Get a rogue for puzzles, you're good. And exploring the world, who needs that when you've got a dungeon? Sure, it doesn't happen in every campaign, and we've just eliminated almost every option for nearly every campaign in existence, but at least the fun is in the cha--



He does not enjoy challenges


I give up.

Add to that he's acting like a childish fool when he doesn't get his way because other people enjoy doing all of these things... I would ask him to leave. Permanently. Very nicely, but just explain that the game really isn't for him.

Bovine Colonel
2012-07-02, 09:32 PM
Perhaps I'm being overly idealistic here, but I would actually suggest not giving up on him. You said you'd like to see him improve as a person, and you've not given up on him for the past decade where others have. Talk to him, get to the bottom of the issue, try to work out the problems, explain everybody else's point of view, that sort of thing.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I myself wouldn't have the patience for that sort of thing, so treat my advice accordingly. I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts so far.

Kadzar
2012-07-03, 12:26 AM
My advice is: don't associate regularly with people who don't care about you in any way, and don't associate with people out of pity when there isn't any way you can help them. Both those things bring on pointless misery.

Jornophelanthas
2012-07-03, 05:30 AM
Perhaps I'm being overly idealistic here, but I would actually suggest not giving up on him. You said you'd like to see him improve as a person, and you've not given up on him for the past decade where others have. Talk to him, get to the bottom of the issue, try to work out the problems, explain everybody else's point of view, that sort of thing.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I myself wouldn't have the patience for that sort of thing, so treat my advice accordingly. I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts so far.
You give absolutely no argument why this mission to improve a difficult person should be carried out by haing the problem player participate in this roleplaying group.

Also, I am quite sure that if the problem player knew of the OP's conscious efforts to "make him a better person", he would be insulted and reject the efforts.

-----

As explained by the OP, this is a strictly one-sided relationship: the DM gives and the problem player takes. The problem player has even specifically and consistently called out the DM as "no friend of mine" for six years over an imagined slight.

In my opinion, the OP has been setting himself up to be consistently abused by this problem player. So my advice to the OP would be to stop enabling this person. Even if the OP still wants to make the problem player "into a better person", refusing to cater to his immature outlook on life would be necessary.

Which means: Tell him that roleplaying is about challenges, puzzle solving, combat, story, imagination and challenge. And if he only likes to build characters, he should not roleplay with your group.
He is not looking for a DM in you. All he wants you to do is say: "You gain a level" on nineteen occasions.

VariaVespasa
2012-07-03, 07:31 AM
Currently Northern California.

Heh, I was gonna ask if he was a white doctor with a Grace-Jones type black girlfriend living in Houston but I guess not. It was sounding awfully familiar for a while there though...

My el-warpo eventually tried to kill my character in his sleep using both his character and his girlfriends character (who wasnt there that week to have her own say, and had previously always sided with me in the main action sequence that likely set him off), but missed due to having to spend his first attack and only fireball dealing with my druidic menagerie of giant ants etc (and at lvl 7 thats a lot of ants...), giving me time to flee. Pretty much ended my participation in the campaign unfortunately, although it was an unseasoned DM and a somewhat cliche group of players (In a previous campaign with that DM they literally grabbed my rogue, held him upside down and shook him for stolen loot, even though I never steal from my parties as a rogue) I suppose it wasnt the greatest tragedy in the universe. I still enjoyed the games though, because unseasoned though he was, the DM still had some neat stuff, and was pretty open to player actions when we tried something unusual. And I enjoyed most of the players, especially the black woman who was probably the most intelligent of the bunch. Oh well.

Hopefully your problem has a better ending, which shouldnt be hard since youre the DM, not just another player. Good luck! :)

Bovine Colonel
2012-07-03, 10:32 AM
You give absolutely no argument why this mission to improve a difficult person should be carried out by haing the problem player participate in this roleplaying group.

Also, I am quite sure that if the problem player knew of the OP's conscious efforts to "make him a better person", he would be insulted and reject the efforts.

-----

As explained by the OP, this is a strictly one-sided relationship: the DM gives and the problem player takes. The problem player has even specifically and consistently called out the DM as "no friend of mine" for six years over an imagined slight.

In my opinion, the OP has been setting himself up to be consistently abused by this problem player. So my advice to the OP would be to stop enabling this person. Even if the OP still wants to make the problem player "into a better person", refusing to cater to his immature outlook on life would be necessary.

Which means: Tell him that roleplaying is about challenges, puzzle solving, combat, story, imagination and challenge. And if he only likes to build characters, he should not roleplay with your group.
He is not looking for a DM in you. All he wants you to do is say: "You gain a level" on nineteen occasions.

Fair enough. I'll concede the point.