Seeking Coder for Indie PC Game

[Fax Celestis]

You read that right. A few of us are looking at putting together a PC game. Problem is: I can art and design, and Essence can design and write...neither of us can code. So we're seeking someone motivated to code for us and take part in the design experience (and art too, if you're so inclined).

We can't pay you up front, but we can give you an even share of the profits made (if any) from the game's release. Let me know, either here or via PM: I'll be watching this thread.

Don't apply if you're not going to be committed to this project: we're very very serious about this, and we don't need someone phoning it in. I'm not saying that this project has to be your full-time job: I'm just saying that if you can't spare some spare time every day to work on this, then this probably isn't for you.

Some of you probably know me by my reputation: those of you that don't might know me as being one of the people who worked on You Have to Name the Expansion Pack for Dungeons of Dredmor. Or you might know me as one of the dudes who placed Top 16 in last year's RPG Superstar. The other main guy on this project (Essence) also worked on YHtNtEP with me, and I've been very impressed with his work thus far. If you think you can make us proud, let us know and we'll pass you the screening process program.

Oh, that's right: in order for us to consider your application a serious one, we'll need you to write a small test program for us, just so we can see your capabilities.

We'll need you to turn this (http://elementscommunity.com/forum/index.php/topic,28209.0.html) into a playable PC game for your application. No, we don't care what language it's written in. No, it doesn't have to look fancy. And no, the AI doesn't have to be terribly smart. This is a test program, not a release candidate. However, if this is something you're going to struggle with, then this project (which will require a more sophisticated AI and UI, though the UI design won't totally be your domain) might not be for you.

[Volatar]

I would totally do this if I had more experience under my belt. Too bad you aren't posting this two years from now. :smalltongue:

[AlterForm]

I'll be scrounging together a version of the application program; at the very least it sounds like a fun 1-2 day project. :smallbiggrin:

Still, the idea of getting in on something like this is intriguing. I don't suppose you could share some more details about the project goals, specifically the scale and a (very general) idea of the genre?

[Fax Celestis]

We're shooting at an eventual Steam release.

And as far as genre, I have this very interesting poker-based giant mecha turn-based tactical combat game sketched out.

[psilontech]

I know a currently underemployed but very talented coder I might point in your direction.


an even share of the profits made (if any)
To clarify, exactly what percentage of profits would he be given for his work?
Would he be requested to provide funds to the project in any way other than code?
Finally, would you be willing to entering a legally binding contract pertaining to partial ownership of the resulting product and a share of the profits? (Not that I don't trust you, far from it, but I've been screwed over for my work by people I trusted and don't want to push that on my friend).

I'll see about talking to him about this but don't pin any hopes on mine asking or him accepting.

[blackfox]

Urgh I'd join if not school and work. :<
I can point people in your direction though, if that'd be helpful.

[endoperez]

I assume the multiplayer component would require a host other clients connect to. Would this connection be constant (chat) or only there for the sending of files?

This sort of game can easily become political - you attack him so I'll do this and we'll both ... etc. That requires good communication. If that's what you want, you should have good built-in chat system.

[factotum]

I assume the multiplayer component would require a host other clients connect to.

Sounds to me like the "test" game is turn-based, so you could just do it as a hotseat game on a single machine...having to write a full network stack just for a test would be a bit extreme, I think. Plus he mentions AI, so there'll be computer-controlled players there as well.

[TheAmishPirate]

Don't apply if you're not going to be committed to this project: we're very very serious about this, and we don't need someone phoning it in. I'm not saying that this project has to be your full-time job: I'm just saying that if you can't spare some spare time every day to work on this, then this probably isn't for you.

How much spare time are we talking about here? Half an hour? An hour? More? Is there going to be an inevitable crunch time where this number goes up dramatically? I ask as I'm still in school at the moment, but I have enough programming (and game design) experience that I think I might be able to handle a side project like this.

Additionally, is there a deadline on the test program?

EDIT: Another important question: When do you expect these responsibilities to start? August-September I'm working on my senior-year project, and I don't know how much free time I could realistically devote to this then. Before/After that is a different story, but that period of time is going to be tricky.

[endoperez]

Sounds to me like the "test" game is turn-based, so you could just do it as a hotseat game on a single machine...having to write a full network stack just for a test would be a bit extreme, I think. Plus he mentions AI, so there'll be computer-controlled players there as well.

It probably is too much for the test game, but since they left it unclear, I thought it'd be a good thing to ask about. It is also something that's going to have a big effect on the amount of work the coder will have, so it's good to mention it any way.

[Fax Celestis]

To clarify, exactly what percentage of profits would he be given for his work?Since there's four of us on the project, including the coder, it'd be a 25% share. Fair is fair.


Would he be requested to provide funds to the project in any way other than code?No. We're not financing anything at this point: We'll likely try Kickstarter when we get a demo put together.

Finally, would you be willing to entering a legally binding contract pertaining to partial ownership of the resulting product and a share of the profits? (Not that I don't trust you, far from it, but I've been screwed over for my work by people I trusted and don't want to push that on my friend).Sure.

[Fax Celestis]

How much spare time are we talking about here? Half an hour? An hour? More? Is there going to be an inevitable crunch time where this number goes up dramatically? I ask as I'm still in school at the moment, but I have enough programming (and game design) experience that I think I might be able to handle a side project like this.Everyone else on the project has a full-time job already (except me, I just have an 18 month old child and am the stay-at-home dad), so we'll be working on it in our spare time.


Additionally, is there a deadline on the test program?Sooner is better, as we might grab someone else in the meantime. Other than that, no.


Another important question: When do you expect these responsibilities to start? August-September I'm working on my senior-year project, and I don't know how much free time I could realistically devote to this then. Before/After that is a different story, but that period of time is going to be tricky.
We'd like to start ASAP and get cracking on it. If you have a month to two month period where you have time devoted to other things, but still remain visible and accessible for at least meetings, that's cool. We can work on art and other design stuff in that period.

[Fax Celestis]

It probably is too much for the test game, but since they left it unclear, I thought it'd be a good thing to ask about. It is also something that's going to have a big effect on the amount of work the coder will have, so it's good to mention it any way.

Either way works.

[TheAmishPirate]

Thanks! If I have any more questions/concerns, I'll let you know. In the meanwhile, I'll get cracking on the test program.

[MethosH]

Well... I'm great with A.I., since that is my field of expertise... but terrible at network. :smalltongue:

But I may give this try. I'll make a local version and see if I can overcome my network fear and make a offline version :smalltongue:

The game you are planning... 3D or 2D?

EDIT:

I think I'll make an offline Android version of this... Like... "Player 1, choose your move. Ready? Ok... Pass the phone to player 2."

EDIT 2: Damn.. Got too excited. I think I won't have time for this until 3 weeks from now :|

[Fax Celestis]

Sprited 2d with 3d terrain elements. Like FFT.

[Sholos]

Does anyone have a copy of the rules for Crossing Swords or whatever the game was called? I was planning on trying to program it just for my own edification, but the thread seems to have disappeared.

[AlterForm]

The forum relocated. You can find the migrated thread here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28209.0.html).

[Fax Celestis]

The forum relocated. You can find the migrated thread here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28209.0.html).

Thanks, I hadn't spotted that.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here's the issue...the game you've provided is so simple that I could whip up a working console version in something like 20 minutes, tops. A full game version would also be pretty simple.

But just because I can do that doesn't mean I can provide the sort of quality you want in your game, at least in a timely fashion. Can we get a bit more detail on what your game will entail, visual/gameplay/coding-wise without having you give away more than you wish to?

[Douglas]

I'll second Djinn, here. The sample program you're asking for is barely out of the realm of triviality for me, but the information you've given so far is nowhere near enough to decide if I have enough time for the actual full game.


And as far as genre, I have this very interesting poker-based giant mecha turn-based tactical combat game sketched out.
About how complex is the game, on a scale where 1 is Crossing Swords and 10 is Magic: The Gathering?

Is it multiplayer, and if so does it need to handle players being on different computers? Coordinating multiple computers is a large increase in the complexity and scale of coding work required.

What else can you tell us about it? I'd ask more specifics, but without already knowing more about the game I don't know what I'd need to ask about, and unfortunately lack of coding knowledge on your part may hinder your ability to judge which factoids are relevant to coding difficulty.

[Sholos]

Might be simple for some of you, but I've hit a temporary block on how to handle all the co-dependent stuff, like who's targeting who and how stuff affects other stuff. I've got the players in an array, and one problem I'm having is finding the index of a specific player by name (which is how I'm storing a current target) short of checking against all the names.

[Douglas]

Might be simple for some of you, but I've hit a temporary block on how to handle all the co-dependent stuff, like who's targeting who and how stuff affects other stuff. I've got the players in an array, and one problem I'm having is finding the index of a specific player by name (which is how I'm storing a current target) short of checking against all the names.
Take these principles to heart, they will save you a lot of headaches in the future: a) always choose your in-code identifier based on the convenience it will enable in the code, and b) whenever it is reasonable to do so, strings are for input and output only, not for internal data representation. Data should only be represented by strings in the code when the data is inherently a string.

Think about these principles a little, and they should suggest a solution.

[Science Officer]

You probably already know about Steam's Greenlight system (http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight), but just to make sure...

I'd like to help but I'll echo Volatar on this one.

If you don't need a playgrounder, you might have some luck checking out r/gamedev (http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev) or, more specifically, r/gamedevclassifieds (http://www.reddit.com/r/gameDevClassifieds/)

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, here's some bulletpoints:

We're looking at 2d graphics with 3d elements centered around an action-point-based turn-based strategy. If you've played FF Tactics, like that graphically (and tactically, actually, though on a larger scale). Note that FFT uses an action-restriction mechanic (one action, one movement per turn), whereas this would instead use an action-point mechanic (firing your rifle costs 4 AP, moving costs 1 per square, for example, so if you had 10 AP, you could move two squares and then fire twice, or move six squares and fire once.)
The basic game mechanic (as it is currently) is detailed here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=MechCombat#Basic_Combat_Mechanic). Note that it is a work-in-progress so none of that is final.
There may or may not be multi-player: we're undecided on that ATM. There will be a campaign that we're going to focus on first.
AI is important here: vs. computer combat is boring unless the computer is smart enough to provide a challenge. IF POSSIBLE we'd like to have multiple AIs for enemy units (as simple as "medic", "bruiser", "artillerist", or as complicated as "Very Difficult Sniper Unit (Rifles)", depending on the coder's comfort levels.

Without being much of a coder myself, I'd venture the complexity of the basic stuff is fairly simple, but the addition of special equipment or pilot skill abilities (such as any of these:
Gravedigger
Pilot Skill
Effect: If you lead with a numbered spade, you may use one card from the discard pile as part of your following hand. This card must be within a number of cards to the top of the discard pile equal to the face value of your leading card.
Prime Shot
Pilot Skill
Effect: If you lead with an ace and your opponent does not lead with an ace or a face card, your target may not build a hand to defend.
Special: If you lead with the A♠, trigger this ability, and your weapon is associated with spades, you deal an extra +2 damage.

Reversal
Pilot Skill
Effect: You may set aside one non-wild card from your hand by spending 1 AP. Keep this card face-down. If your opponent leads an attack against you with a card that matches your card in either number or suit and they are within range of at least one of your weapons, you may immediately initiate a counterattack against them for no AP cost. If your foe's card matches both suit and number, you deal an additional 2 damage for this counterattack.
Special: If your hidden card is the A of the suit associated with your weapon when you trigger this ability, you deal an extra +2 damage.

) ...would increase the difficulty a lot.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hm. I don't have much experience with 3D graphics, so while I probably could do that, it would take me a bit longer.

I also have no real AI experience, so I don't think I have the experience to code that well.

The rest, on the other hand, doesn't seem that hard, although it might be time consuming to implement that many things.

[Fax Celestis]

We're all learning as we go on this, so if you think you can learn it while you're doing it, feel free.

[Trazoi]

There may or may not be multi-player: we're undecided on that ATM. There will be a campaign that we're going to focus on first.
If I may give a tip, I would make a decision about how important multiplayer is to you fairly soon. It is usually much easier to limit a software architecture designed from the start to be multiplayer-friendly work for one player only than to bolt multiplayer onto an organically design that has built around single player only. Of course if you're planning on building a prototype and then rebuilding from scratch later on you'll be fine either way, but often you don't have time to do that.

[Fax Celestis]

I want to get a programmer sorted out first and then discuss it with them. It'll be one of the first things we discuss.

[Alaris]

Augh, heh... I just started learning a few months ago, so I'm far too inexperienced for this. But it's awesome to see people can get together like this for indie projects. You guys've given me new hope on this, and I'll keep working on my coding so I can one day be part of a project like this.

[TheAmishPirate]

Sent in my application code a bit ago, I just want to confirm it was received and all that.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm

Are you still looking for a programmer at this point? I often lament not having interesting projects, and didn't see this thread when it was first created. I could probably throw together a decent implementation of Crossing Swords and maybe a quick pygame interface in a day or two. I have pretty minimal experience with UI and graphics, but I'm quite good at laying out (game/business) logic as well as debugging, and I'm rapidly gaining experience with encapsulation and useful design patterns.

There are a fairly large number of rule ambiguities in that sample game, though, which bug me when laying out the rules interactions. The most egregious is the "Halt" action, which has a surprisingly high number of hard-to-resolve interactions, most of which would probably rely on the host's judgement, since they aren't clearly defined. Halt loops, two people halting one person who is halting one of those two, and so forth. I don't think I know enough graph theory for this.

EDIT: Ah, I see... run a recursive check up halters, until you find a halter without dependencies, or until the halter is solely dependent on an already-checked halter. Glad I could find the correct algorithmic solution.

EDIT 2: Submitted quick code prototype; the fun part is making pretty rule transcription and code structure, as usual, but adding a GUI isn't that terrible.

[Fax Celestis]

Sent in my application code a bit ago, I just want to confirm it was received and all that.

Yup, I got it. We're discussing.


Are you still looking for a programmer at this point?

Yup.

[Recaiden]

Are you still looking for a programmer and discussing? Is this going anywhere? Not having heard anything in this thread or having gotten even a rejection is discouraging.

[Fax Celestis]

Sorry, things have been hectic as hell for Ess and I: he found out his kid has epilepsy, I have a toddler, my wife just got a new job...

...we're still on this. I'll let you know.