Dragonkin in 3.5

[Khardos]

Was looking into a new character for kicks, and I heard of a dragonkin in 3.5.
I couldn't find an actual PC race. Anybody able to lead me in the right direction? Draconomicon and Dragon Magic weren't of much help. I got all books on a PDF.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...Dragonkin are in the Draconomicon.

They're in the Monsters section, if that helps.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are several ways to do dragon-descended folk in D&D...

Half Dragon
Draconic PrC
Greater Dragon Bloodline
Lesser Dragon Bloodline
Classes and Alternate Class Features and such that are dragon themed.

Dragonkin can mean many things depending on what the heck you are talking about.

What precisely do you mean by 'dragonkin'?? Do you mean a race called Dragonkin? Cause different settings and books and stuff that are not D&D have used the term "Dragonkin". Even D&D has a monster called "Dragonkin", which might not be what you are thinking of.

[Marnath]

Pages 150-151 in the draconomicon.

[Khardos]

What precisely do you mean by 'dragonkin'?? Do you mean a race called Dragonkin? Cause different settings and books and stuff that are not D&D have used the term "Dragonkin". Even D&D has a monster called "Dragonkin", which might not be what you are thinking of.

After reading this.... I should've been more specific. My buddy told me of a Dragonkin PC race in the Draconomicon. He told me it was only an ECL-2. I tried searching through the Draconomicon for a Dragonkin Race with an ECL-2, but I couldn't find it. Thinking I just over-looked it on accident.

[pffh]

After reading this.... I should've been more specific. My buddy told me of a Dragonkin PC race in the Draconomicon. He told me it was only an ECL-2. I tried searching through the Draconomicon for a Dragonkin Race with an ECL-2, but I couldn't find it. Thinking I just over-looked it on accident.

Well according to my draconomnomnomicon the dragonkin only have a LA of +2 but they also have 7 racial hit die. So maybe he just didn't know that you also count the racial hit dice in the ECL?

[Khardos]

Welp, I'm an idiot... the Dragonkin on page 150 of the Draconomnomnomicon is what I was looking for. Just kept missing the ECL 2 that's at the bottom of its description >.>

I was going by HD. I noticed it said 7d8+7, tihnking it was an ECL of 7. When my buddy made his Lycanthrope for our current campaign, It had an HD: 3d8, nothing at the bottom saying Level Adjustment --- . I understand it now >.>
The Lycanthrope gave him the Level Adjustment of +3. The cheetah (He's a Were-Cheetah) gave him none. It all makes sense now.

Now... if only Heroforge could list the Dragonkin so I don't gotta write it out... Time to be not lazy! haha

[Thurbane]

Welp, I'm an idiot... the Dragonkin on page 150 of the Draconomnomnomicon is what I was looking for. Just kept missing the ECL 2 that's at the bottom of its description >.>

I was going by HD. I noticed it said 7d8+7, tihnking it was an ECL of 7.
I think you might be getting LA (level adjustment) and ECL (effective character level) confused.

The Dragonkin race is ECL 9 before adding any class levels. A Dragonkin Barbarian 1 is ECL 10 (meaning it earns XP as a 10th level character) . ECL is is a total of racial hit dice (if any), level adjustment, and class levels in this case 7+2+1 = 10.

On a tangent, I just noticed that the CR of a Dragonkin is 3...now, compare that to a CR 3 Ogre! A 7HD large flying monstrous humanoid with multiple natural weapons can inflict some serious damaged on an unprepared 3rd level party. Just for giggles, imagine a Dragonkin Sorcerer 6: with non-associated class rules, he's CR 6. :smalleek:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I was going by HD. I noticed it said 7d8+7, tihnking it was an ECL of 7. When my buddy made his Lycanthrope for our current campaign, It had an HD: 3d8, nothing at the bottom saying Level Adjustment --- . I understand it now >.>
The Lycanthrope gave him the Level Adjustment of +3. The cheetah (He's a Were-Cheetah) gave him none. It all makes sense now.

Uh... it looks like you guys are seriously messing up on you ECL. That lycanthrope would be an ECL of 6 before class levels. It's LA +3, 3 HD. Dragonkin is ECL 9. Sucks, but WotC seemed to really have a thing against monster PCs in 3.5. Not sure if you can even play them in 4e, since every race is either an LA 0 playable race, or it's not.

And non-associated class levels is the worst rule ever.

[Khardos]

That sucks. Was looking forward to seeing how a level 6 Dragonkin Monk would work out haha

Anybody know of something similar to the Dragonkin in Draconomicon p150 that's only a 2 level dip? Or anything close to it that I could look at.

[Greenish]

Anybody know of something similar to the Dragonkin in Draconomicon p150 that's only a 2 level dip? Or anything close to it that I could look at.Dragonborn of Bahamut from Races of the Dragon looks like an human-shaped dragon too. They're not Large, and don't get flight until level 6 (if you pick that option), but on the plus side, they're +0 LA.

[Zale]

I would suggest Half-Dragon Dragons but they have a 3 LA. And probably aren't worth it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Welp, I'm an idiot... the Dragonkin on page 150 of the Draconomnomnomicon is what I was looking for. Just kept missing the ECL 2 that's at the bottom of its description >.>

I was going by HD. I noticed it said 7d8+7, tihnking it was an ECL of 7. When my buddy made his Lycanthrope for our current campaign, It had an HD: 3d8, nothing at the bottom saying Level Adjustment --- . I understand it now >.>
The Lycanthrope gave him the Level Adjustment of +3. The cheetah (He's a Were-Cheetah) gave him none. It all makes sense now.

Now... if only Heroforge could list the Dragonkin so I don't gotta write it out... Time to be not lazy! haha

Were-Cheetah either has the same level adjustment as any other lycanthrope (+3), or it cannot be used as a PC race at all (LA -).

If you want a large/strong dragon-themed race with wings, consider using Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny with Dragonborn of Bahamut from Races of the Dragon. That will have a total LA +2, no racial HD, and you'll get wings that can eventually enable you to fly.

[Gavinfoxx]

Look, if you want a crazy awesome race for a barbarian, just be a Dragonborn Water Orc.

Also, Lesser Aasimar, Lesser Axani, or Saurial Shifters should work great for Monks (pffft) or Swordsages or Tashalatora Psychic Warriors or Ardents, I believe.

[ShadowPsyker]

Dragonspawn pg. 222 Dragonlance campaign setting.

You gain Sorcerer spells as a 1st level caster on a template, so you don't have to give up that human bonus feat, or go for something with better stats. Even the lowly white spawn has the +7 natural armor bonus and it only has a +1 LA.

[Agent 451]

Dragonspawn pg. 222 Dragonlance campaign setting.

You gain Sorcerer spells as a 1st level caster on a template, so you don't have to give up that human bonus feat, or go for something with better stats. Even the lowly white spawn has the +7 natural armor bonus and it only has a +1 LA.

Just a nitpick, but the white dragonspawn is only LA +1 if you are playing a character that is under the control of a Dragon Overlord. Otherwise, it's a +3.

[Thurbane]

How about Goliath (RoS) with the Draconic (Drc) template?

LA +2, and no racial HD. No wings, but you can get around that with grafts or magic items...

Draconic Creature Goliath
Str +6, Dex -2, Con +4, Cha +2
Powerful Build (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants)
2 claw attacks 1d3
+1 natural armor bonus
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate, Sense Motive and Spot checks

...might not be ideal for a Monk character, though.

[Curmudgeon]

How about Goliath (RoS) with the Draconic (Drc) template?

LA +2, and no racial HD.
That should be 1 racial HD. Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType), so they miss out on the Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) option to exchange a single racial hit die for their first class level.

[Thurbane]

That should be 1 racial HD. Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType), so they miss out on the Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) option to exchange a single racial hit die for their first class level.
...I'm familiar with your reading of those rules, but I'm not touching that with the proverbial 10ft pole. Suffice to say, I don't think there would be many gaming tables out there where the Goliath is played as having 1 permanent racial HD.

It may also be noteworthy that none of the Goliath sample NPCs listed in the same book the race first appear in (RoS, p.181-183) list any sort of racial HD.

[planswalker]

That should be 1 racial HD. Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType), so they miss out on the Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) option to exchange a single racial hit die for their first class level.

Your interpretation is very interesting to me, seeing as NO source ever follows it. Ever.

[Curmudgeon]

Your interpretation is very interesting to me, seeing as NO source ever follows it. Ever.
In a similar fashion, no source book penalizes Monks for non-proficiency with unarmed strikes. Yet that remains the RAW, and I've played in games where these rules were enforced as written. If you want to play with different rules, you should start by at least knowing which of them are from the books and which are house rules.

[Kerilstrasz]

There are the Draconians from Dragonlance setting...
there are the Baaz and Kapak... +1LA and +2LA...
you can find em that Dragonlane Campaing Setting at page 33-37

[planswalker]

and once again, the point is that NO sources EVER use that interpretation. Yes, RAW is an interpretation. It is someone choosing to interpret the rules as they are written, not as is sane or intended.

You continuing to tout pointless holes in the rules that no one ever uses isn't contributing to conversations.

edit: also, by your terms, the WotC books use "house rules" in practically every book...

[Oscredwin]

That should be 1 racial HD. Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType), so they miss out on the Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) option to exchange a single racial hit die for their first class level.

Can you link to the rule that all creatures have at least one racial hit die? Goliaths as presented in RoS don't seem to advance by racial hit die but by class levels just as humans in the MM have a warrior level instead of a humanoid hit die.

[Curmudgeon]

Can you link to the rule that all creatures have at least one racial hit die?
There's no such rule, because Humanoids have a provision whereby they can exchange a single racial hit die for their first class level. Other creature types don't have such a rule. (The links are in the post which you quoted.)

[planswalker]

then please explain to me why you insist that the goliaths and others who are written without any base hit dice must therefore start with a racial hit die?

[Curmudgeon]

then please explain to me why you insist that the goliaths and others who are written without any base hit dice must therefore start with a racial hit die?
Gee, that would be because it's the actual rule for monster races. That rule exists even if the author(s) of those Races of Stone Goliath NPCs were ignorant of it. The exchange option is supposed to represent greater developmental flexibility for Humanoid characters, to offset their few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities.

As with many constraints on player power, such inconvenient rules are frequently "overlooked".

[planswalker]

you say it's a rule. WHERE IS IT?

[Roguenewb]

Also, Savage Species broadened the rule to any creature at all can make the 1 HD swap if it can take class levels.

[Piggy Knowles]

you say it's a rule. WHERE IS IT?

Actually, the burden goes the other way: where is the rule that a character with 1 racial HD CAN swap it out? The only instance I know of where that racial HD swap is mentioned only says it applies to humanoids...


Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

No such clause exists with any of the other types. Rules in D&D are generally permissive rather than restrictive; they tell you what you CAN do, not what you can't do. So there wouldn't be a rule in place saying "all monstrous humanoids with 1 racial hit die can not swap that hit die for their first level."

(Note: I'm playing devil's advocate here - I think its omission was probably an oversight, just as the monk's nonproficiency with unarmed strikes was. And I think any DM who enforces it that way is just being pedantic.)

[planswalker]

no, you claim there's a rule which states that every race has at least 1 racial hit die. I am aware of no such rule. WHERE are you getting it from that every race has at least 1 racial hit die associated with it?

I am NOT, at the moment, arguing about whether or not said hit die, if it exists, can be swapped out. I am arguing that said hit die never existed in the first place unless specifically said to exist. Where does it say that every race has at least 1 racial hit die?

[Piggy Knowles]

no, you claim there's a rule which states that every race has at least 1 racial hit die. I am aware of no such rule. WHERE are you getting it from that every race has at least 1 racial hit die associated with it?

I am NOT, at the moment, arguing about whether or not said hit die, if it exists, can be swapped out. I am arguing that said hit die never existed in the first place unless specifically said to exist. Where does it say that every race has at least 1 racial hit die?

Oh, OK, my apologies. I thought you were arguing about whether the swap can occur for non-humanoids. I don't have Races of Stone in front of me, and I don't recall if the book gives goliaths a hit die of monstrous humanoids.

[planswalker]

um... no, no it does not. Just like there are NO other playable races with 1 racial hit die printed. Ever. Anywhere.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gee, that would be because it's the actual rule for monster races. That rule exists even if the author(s) of those Races of Stone Goliath NPCs were ignorant of it. The exchange option is supposed to represent greater developmental flexibility for Humanoid characters, to offset their few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities.

As with many constraints on player power, such inconvenient rules are frequently "overlooked".

Either the Half-Giant monster entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) is in error, or you are mistaken.

I don't see anywhere in the Monstrous Humanoid or Giant creature types, or any creature types for that matter, where it states that creatures of that type must have at least one racial HD. Therefore, if a specific creature entry does not specifically state that the creature in question has any racial HD, then they do not have any racial HD.

I may have missed where it's specifically stated that either 1. Goliaths have 1 racial HD; 2. All Monstrous Humanoids always have at least 1 racial HD; 3. All creatures always have at least 1 racial HD. If you can provide a reference to a specific rule regarding any of the above three, then please do so, otherwise concede that a Goliath PC does not have any racial HD per RAW.

[Curmudgeon]

um... no, no it does not. Just like there are NO other playable races with 1 racial hit die printed. Ever. Anywhere.

Bladeling: Monster Manual II, page 31 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 4.
Ixitxachitl: Monster Manual II, page 129 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 8.
Chaond: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.
Zenythri: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.

[lunar2]

add to that the pixie, nixie, and grig from the monster manual. all have 1 or 1/2 racial HD, and all are playable.

also, DnD rules are restrictive, not permissive. the rules tell you what you can't do, and how you must do what you can do. they don't tell you what you can do.


Essential to the D&D game is the Dungeon Master (DM). The DM is the referee and storyteller for the game, as well as
the judge when the rules don’t cover a particular topic. Let’s face it: No set of rules can cover every possible circumstance in a game meant to mimic life in a fantasy world. The rules clear up as much as possible, assuming the
DM can make a judgment in a situation that the rules don’t cover or that they don’t cover adequately. DMs are expected to use knowledge of existing rules, common sense, real world knowledge, and a sense of fun when dealing with
such special cases. Knowledge of the existing rules is key, because the rules often do cover similar cases or combine to make such judgment calls unnecessary. It’s not always true, but you often can do or at least try something the rules fail to directly forbid, as long as the DM thinks doing so
is reasonable.

also, the rule that has been quoted about humanoids isn't saying that humanoids can exchange their 1 RHD and racial features. it's saying that they must exchange them. by saying that humanoids must make that exchange, the rules affirm that such an exchange is possible. since no limit is placed on which creature types can or can't do it, they all can with DM's permission, according to RAW (as quoted above).

[planswalker]

Bladeling: Monster Manual II, page 31 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 4.
Ixitxachitl: Monster Manual II, page 129 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 8.
Chaond: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.
Zenythri: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.


all of those, I'd like to point out, are 3.0 sources.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bladeling: Monster Manual II, page 31 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 4.
Ixitxachitl: Monster Manual II, page 129 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 8.
Chaond: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.
Zenythri: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.


All of those very specifically have one racial HD. As I've already asked, please point out where it is stated very specifically that Goliaths have one racial HD.

[Curmudgeon]

all of those, I'd like to point out, are 3.0 sources.
No, they're not. Note specifically the 3.5 update for each.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, they're not. Note specifically the 3.5 update for each.

You've yet to show any evidence that Goliaths have any racial HD.

[LeshLush]

Also, Savage Species broadened the rule to any creature at all can make the 1 HD swap if it can take class levels.
Everyone ignored this but it seems pretty relevant to me.

[Urpriest]

Gee, that would be because it's the actual rule for monster races. That rule exists even if the author(s) of those Races of Stone Goliath NPCs were ignorant of it. The exchange option is supposed to represent greater developmental flexibility for Humanoid characters, to offset their few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities.

As with many constraints on player power, such inconvenient rules are frequently "overlooked".

Again: Why should Goliaths specifically have 1HD? Why not fractional HD, as many monsters do? What evidence do you have of that, specific, determination?

[planswalker]

btw, just thought about it, but doesn't examples of races that DO specify that they have 1 racial hit dice mean that there is NO reason to think that those who do not specify that they have 1 racial hit die DON'T have one?

[Curmudgeon]

Everyone ignored this but it seems pretty relevant to me.
Sure, in a 3.0 rules game. But Savage Species never got updated for 3.5 rules, and the 3.5 Monster Manual specifies Humanoids for the 1 HD exchange.

[planswalker]

we're still waiting for you to show us where it says that all races have at least one hit die if none are specified.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sure, in a 3.0 rules game. But Savage Species never got updated for 3.5 rules, and the 3.5 Monster Manual specifies Humanoids for the 1 HD exchange.

It specifies it's available to humanoids, but it does not specify that it's limited to humanoids.

Furthermore, you've still yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that Goliaths have any racial HD, which was the original issue here.

[LeshLush]

Sure, in a 3.0 rules game. But Savage Species never got updated for 3.5 rules, and the 3.5 Monster Manual specifies Humanoids for the 1 HD exchange.
I'm pretty sure that everything that wasn't updated is still kosher. The laws of 3.0 are only abrogated when they are updated to something different.

[planswalker]

that's not an airtight case. Probably better to just drop it and focus on having him show us where it says that goliaths have a racial hit die.

[ShadowPsyker]

Just a nitpick, but the white dragonspawn is only LA +1 if you are playing a character that is under the control of a Dragon Overlord. Otherwise, it's a +3.

I have absolutely no problem with nitpickers, assuming they can back up their claims. This extra +2 level adjust does not appear in the dragonspawn entry on pg. 222, or anywhere near it.

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure that everything that wasn't updated is still kosher. The laws of 3.0 are only abrogated when they are updated to something different.
Now he's gonna hit you with this quote:

This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
While I generally respect Curmudgeon's reading of RAW, and interpretation of same, there are a handful of key issues where I strongly disagree with him. This is one such case. I think it best if we all just stick to our our interpretations of said rule and move on. Even if it means we are playing with *ptew* "houserules". :smallbiggrin:

And FWIW, literally EVERY Goliath character stat block in can find in every 3.5 book and module that has them makes zero reference to any racial HD.

[planswalker]

"houserules" that appear in many major WotC supplements...

[Curmudgeon]

Dragonspawn pg. 222 Dragonlance campaign setting.
Dragonspawn was updated in Bestiary of Krynn, Revised on pages 43-45. The update is much clearer.

[willpell]

Gee, that would be because it's the actual rule for monster races. That rule exists even if the author(s) of those Races of Stone Goliath NPCs were ignorant of it.

If the authors of that one books can overlook a fiddly detail in favor of X, why is it impossible to believe that the authors of the corebooks persistently overlooked the same detail in favor of the opposite of X? It would be difficult* to credit that the authors of the PHB intended monks not to be proficient with the unarmed strike which the entire class pretty much revolves around; it is however fairly easy to believe they might have thought that the fact that a) monks or b) characters in general were always proficient with unarmed strikes was too obvious to bother mentioning. There are large numbers of authors, true, but most of them were obligated to follow the precedent set by the corebook, especially given the wide release of the SRD, which was going to show up in third party sourcebooks and thus be difficult to contradict without the company's full backing.

* I was tempted to say "impossible", but upon thinking about it I can imagine someone making the argument that unarmed strikes are meant to be nonproficient for the same reason that they do a pitifully small amount of nonlethal damage, and that a monk was intended to need to build up his attack roll enough to counteract that penalty, the same way a fighter might build up his BAB and STR in order to be effective with improvised weapons despite them always being nonproficient. It's a stretch, but it can't be ruled out entirely. And the argument in favor of needing to learn proficiency for natural weapons is even easier to credit, though it still seems unlikely that it's meant to be true across the board.

[planswalker]

So, curmudgeon, are you ever gonna answer for us where you got the idea that goliaths have a racial hit die?

[willpell]

So, curmudgeon, are you ever gonna answer for us where you got the idea that goliaths have a racial hit die?

We know where he got the idea - an extremely strict interpretation of the basic rule coupled with an assumption about what the absence of another rule signifies. (EDIT: To clarify, we don't know where he's gotten the idea that all creatures start with a racial HD unless they're humanoids, but given that he believes that to be the case, it follows logically enough Goliaths would have a racial HD because they are not humanoids, so the exact question asked in the quote above isn't the one that needs to be asked.)


And for the record, you haven't admitted that you were flat mistaken about at least one of your posts:


um... no, no it does not. Just like there are NO other playable races with 1 racial hit die printed. Ever. Anywhere.



Bladeling: Monster Manual II, page 31 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 4.
Ixitxachitl: Monster Manual II, page 129 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 8.
Chaond: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.
Zenythri: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.


You then countered that this was 3.0 and he pointed out that it had been updated and you haven't said anything since then.

[ShadowPsyker]

Dragonspawn was updated in Bestiary of Krynn, Revised on pages 43-45. The update is much clearer.

...Ah? I see Tyin & Desolation Giants. You sure you got the right book?

[planswalker]

We know where he got the idea - an extremely strict interpretation of the basic rule coupled with an assumption about what the absence of another rule signifies. And for the record, you haven't admitted that you were flat mistaken about at least one of your posts:

You then countered that this was 3.0 and he pointed out that it had been updated and you haven't said anything since then.

true, and I should apologize for that. To my knowledge, I did not know of any such examples. I'd completely forgotten about the fae in the MMI and never noticed the bladeling and Co in the MMII.

I would like to point out though that unless there is a rule which explicitly states that all creatures start with 1 racial hit die, the very presence of these creatures would signify that racial hit dice will be explicitly mentioned when present and when not mentioned, there is no reason to assume them present.

[Tytalus]

Bladeling: Monster Manual II, page 31 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 4.
Ixitxachitl: Monster Manual II, page 129 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 8.
Chaond: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.
Zenythri: Monster Manual II, page 170 and FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II, page 9.


I'm not sure what your point is here. The sources don't specify that you keep the racial HD when using the race as a PC race. The provided rules for playing characters of those races read as though they are referring to a level adjustment, not RHD. Given the SS ruling, that makes perfect sense.

In fact, in the Ixitxachitl case, the update makes it clear that no racial HD applies, since the adjustment given in the MM2 ("An average ixitxachitl PC’s effective character level (ECL) is equal to its class level + 2. Thus, a 1st-level ixitxachitl cleric has an ECL of 3 and is the equivalent of a 3rd level character.") and the LA given in the update (+2) match - there's no room for a racial HD at all. Ergo, the racial HD dissapears when the race is used as a PC race.

The same is true for the Chaond and the Zenythri. Only in the Bladeling's case the two don't match, but here the adjustment is larger in the revision, i.e., the racial HD apparently also plays no role.

So if anything, those examples show that your stance is not correct.

[willpell]

Adding a little more confusion to the issue, the Monster Manual 5 entry for Hobgoblins shows three examples of hobs that have "undergone grueling rituals" and become monstrous humanoids. No rules support for putting an existing hobgoblin character through those rites is provided, so there is no definite answer, but my inclination is to be dubious that a character who took his first level as a Humanoid (with no racial HD), who later changes into a Monstrous Humanoid through such a ritual, suddenly gains the mandatory 1 racial HD that Curmudgeon believes it must now have. I can conceive of that happening, but it seems unlikely. (Unfortunately the creatures presented are not much help in figuring this out; they were designed as monsters rather than as characters, and it's impossible to tell what exactly would be happening if a Hobgoblin Wizard turned into a Warcaster.)

[Agent 451]

Dragonspawn was updated in Bestiary of Krynn, Revised on pages 43-45. The update is much clearer.

Thanks for that. It is also in Dragons of Krynn, page 123 for white dragonspawn (and dragonspawn as a whole get an entire chapter, pages 116-125).


...Ah? I see Tyin & Desolation Giants. You sure you got the right book?

Those are the right pages by copy of the revised Bestiary of Krynn.

[ShadowPsyker]

Dragons of Krynn is third party. So I will reiterate; DRAGONSPAWN FOR THE WIN!

[Agent 451]

Aren't all Dragonlance books other than the campaign setting 3rd party?

[Curmudgeon]

Dragons of Krynn is third party. So I will reiterate; DRAGONSPAWN FOR THE WIN!
I wouldn't recommend using the rest of the book, but that does include errata in the Appendix, including for the Dragonspawn template. For easier reading I'd instead direct you to Bestiary of Krynn, Revised; the fully updated Dragonspawn template (not old + separate errata) is on just 2 pages. Again, I don't suggest using any of the new 3rd-party content, just the errata that WotC didn't get around to supplying for Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[ShadowPsyker]

Aren't all Dragonlance books other than the campaign setting 3rd party?

Yes. Dragonspawn appear in the campaign setting, so... you know.

FTW!