Dorjes on Steroids?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just a stream of though based on something said in he Q and A thread...



A 343 A)

Yes, you can make spell trigger and spell completion items with metamagic-applied spells. The adjusted spell level must comply with the limits of the item creation feat. Since Magic Weapon is a 1st level spell and Quicken Spell adjusts the spell by +4 levels, no such wand (limited to 4th level spells) is possible. It doesn't matter what mechanism you use to supply the metamagic feats. Divine Metamagic only keeps the spell level unaltered for your spells, not to spells in items you create. The same applies to Incantatrix class abilities and other metamagic cost reducers: they do not apply to spell levels in items unless that's explicitly stated.

Wondrous items follow the listed formulas in all particulars. If you wish a different formula you're making a custom magic item, and the determination of how (and whether) you can make such a custom item is up to each individual DM.


So...replace Quicken Spell with Quicken Power and "wand" with "dorje"...does it work now?


No.


Not too surprised that's the answer, but could you clarify why exactly? Is it because Quicken Power requires you to expend a psionic focus? In that case, why precisely can the dorje's user not spend his own focus to make the dorje function?


Yes, a requirement to expend psionic focus prevents using a metapsionic feat-augmented power in a dorje. Expending the user's psionic focus has no impact on a power trigger item; expending psionic focus only impacts powers and feats that the user possesses.

So basically, it boils down to Curmudgeon saying that you can't have a metapowered power in a dorje.

Yet...

There's this clause hiding on page 41 of the XPH;

With the right psionic item creation feat, you can store a metapsionic power in a power stone, psionic tattoo, or dorje.

Combined with the limitations on dorjes
dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.
Means that you should be able to pimp out a dorje, especially with the Metapower feat (CPsi).

For example, one could make a [Metapower (Empower)+(Twin)] Empowered Twinned Enlarged Crystal Shard at ML2 (that costs as much as a ML5 dorje) that does... 3d6*2 at a range of 50' +10'/ML. With no save or SR.

Thoughts?

[whibla]

So basically, it boils down to Curmudgeon saying that you can't have a metapowered power in a dorje.

One of the exceedingly rare times I disagree with something he's said. It stems from the notable difference that while Wands can only hold spells of up to 4th level, Dorjes have no such limitation, and can hold powers of up to 9th level.


There's this clause hiding on page 41 of the XPH;

The quote goes on to explicitly state that level limits apply, and that the metapsionically boosted power is considered to be a higher level power, for the purposes of what it can be stored in, in the creation purpose. I would like to add, however, that whoever wrote this section, and others in the book, really really really can't have been thinking too hard about what they were writing. Condradictions abound, even within this small section. For example, a 3rd level power, metapsionically boosted by a feat costing 2 PP now costs 7 PP, yet somehow counts as a 5th level power (which usually costs 9 PP to manifest). It's like they were considering the equivalent spell level increase of metamagic, yet no explicit reference is ever made to this.


Combined with the limitations on dorjes
dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.

You've actually started to confuse two issues here, although it doesn't actually detract from what you're saying. There's a difference between augmenting a power, and metapsionically altering that power. Augmenting refers to spending additional power points to 'overpower' the power. To use the example you give below, Crystal Shard is a first level power, so at a minimum, requires a ML of 1, and costs 1 PP. It can be, when put inside a 'basic'* Dorje, overpowered to cast as a ML 6, using 6 PP, and causing 6d6 damage on a successful hit. It still counts as a first level power, the only thing that has changed is the ML (and the cost to make, but that's a seperate issue).


For example, one could make a [Metapower (Empower)+(Twin)] Empowered Twinned Enlarged Crystal Shard at ML2 (that costs as much as a ML5 dorje) that does... 3d6*2 at a range of 50' +10'/ML. With no save or SR.

Thoughts?

Both Psionic Empower and Split Psionic Ray add 2 PP to the cost of the power. In the example above Crystal Shard now costs (base) 5 PP, and counts as a 5th level power (Back to the point I made above. WTF? 5th level powers should cost 9 PP to manifest). In addition, the minumum ML for manifesting a 5th level power is 9th. However, because the minimum ML of this (allegedly) 5th level power is 9th, yet we're only spent 5 PP on it, we can use the additional PP to boost the damage. Without changing the ML we can boost it by 4d6 (base - i.e. before applying the Empower effect). Additionally, because the power is now 5th level, with a minimum ML of 9th, we could choose to 'overpower' our Dorje, to a ML of 14th, which would boost the damage by 9d6 (base - on top of the original 1d6, and before applying the Empower effect). Doing this would give us a damage range of 15d6 * 2, same range as you gave, with no save or SR. You would still need to roll to hit though...

*There is one more thing that can be said about Dorjes. So far we've only dealth with, as I called them, basic Dorjes. In these the ML (and thus the maximum PP expenditure) is limited to minimum ML (required to use the power) + 5. It is possible to exceed this limit simply by treating the power as a higher level. A 1st level power, in a Dorje, used as a 9th level power has a maximum ML of 22. Of course you would actually need to be a 22nd level manifester to be able to create the item, and the cost would be...high...but it it possible.

*EDIT* After all that, I realised I totally failed my reading check, with regards to the Metapower (?) feat. I tend to be a tad 'biased' wrt those type of feats. Worst type of power / feature creep in the game, imo, for all that they're RAW. I'll leave someone else comment on the 'validity' of their use in making magic items.