View Full Version : How do NPC classes gain levels?
imneuromancer
2012-06-30, 12:13 PM
Can't find an answer to this. If they aren't adventuring, how does the average farmer/blacksmith/noble gain levels?
Craft (Cheese)
2012-06-30, 12:16 PM
There's no specific rule for it anywhere but it's generally taken for granted that NPCs can gain levels by training and having experience in their fields, not just killing monsters. Roleplaying XP, maybe?
Sgt. Cookie
2012-06-30, 12:18 PM
"NPC's gain levels due to the DM deciding they do."
Seriously though, levels are an abstract concept in the D&D world. Unless you're playing an OOTS style game. So simply stating that they do is more than enough.
Prime32
2012-06-30, 12:50 PM
Somewhere in the Tomes it's remarked that NPC spellcasters have the easiest time of levelling up, since NPC fighters have to fight to do so (and could get injured or killed) while wizards just have to read books and sorcerer powers just increase in strength on their own.
Is this like that old joke about beating the eggs and whipping the cream?
ericgrau
2012-06-30, 01:07 PM
Mostly they don't. They tend to be 1st or 2nd level. They might gain a level from random attacks, which is annoying to think that makes their smithing better I know. For the exceptional ones the DM might arbitrarily add more levels.
Or decide what made them exceptional and give xp for that. Studying, even under good teachers, is common so I don't think that's enough. A swordsmith might practice with his blades in real combat, an athlete might train in harsh conditions, and even a chef might face tight time constraints for strict clients while being surprised with unusual ingredients. In all cases I think the common factor is danger, whether or not it involves monsters or is life threatening.
CTrees
2012-06-30, 01:22 PM
Roleplaying and quest xp, i'd say.
RndmNumGen
2012-06-30, 01:26 PM
Can't find an answer to this. If they aren't adventuring, how does the average farmer/blacksmith/noble gain levels?
Like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html).
It's easy to roleplay when your entire existence is a role.
Slipperychicken
2012-06-30, 03:11 PM
In a secret pre-game session involving only himself, the DM awards his excellently-roleplayed Goblin NPC sufficient experience to advance to 9th level. He then pats himself on the back before attending a session involving three other people.
Mithril Leaf
2012-06-30, 07:40 PM
Well I know that for commoners, they level up by becoming more common. After all, a level 2 commoner is twice as common as a level 1 commoner.
Thurbane
2012-06-30, 09:51 PM
In a secret pre-game session involving only himself, the DM awards his excellently-roleplayed Goblin NPC sufficient experience to advance to 9th level. He then pats himself on the back before attending a session involving three other people.
Love it! :smallbiggrin:
If you wanted to be all RAW about it (and not use the common sense approach of the DM hand waving NPC levels), I guess they could overcome non-combat based challenges...
LadyLexi
2012-06-30, 10:04 PM
You spend 100% on items and sell them for 50%. Npc's count as defeating PC's every time they get double on a trade.
Flickerdart
2012-06-30, 10:39 PM
They stand in a corner, adopt the DBZ pose and go HOUUUAAAAAAAGH for 30 episodes, and then gain a new power level.
Urpriest
2012-07-01, 10:44 AM
...NPCs level the same way PCs do. They complete encounters of an appropriate EL. You don't have to complete encounters by killing things, whether you're a PC or an NPC. PCs just happen to have more encounters in a shorter period of time, which is kind of why they're the PCs.
jackattack
2012-07-01, 04:15 PM
"Followers don't earn experience and thus don't gain levels."
If your PC's own entourage of personal NPCs don't advance, how could NPCs who aren't even peripherally involved in adventuring be expected to advance?
shadow_archmagi
2012-07-01, 04:24 PM
You don't have to kill enemies to gain levels- you simply have to overcome the obstacles before you. INBOOK EXAMPLE: Stealing the macguffin from the minotaur's vault is worth the same XP as killing it.
Ergo, if the commoner puts some gold in the bank, and then asks to make a withdrawal, and the minotaur goes and gets it for him, he gets XP for completing a CR 5 encounter. Likewise for if the dragon tries to eat him, and he successfully flees in terror.
Wizards are always involved in scholarly research, so they just have to *look* at the dragon a bit to achieve their goals and get XP.
ericgrau
2012-07-02, 06:27 AM
You spend 100% on items and sell them for 50%. Npc's count as defeating PC's every time they get double on a trade.
NPC: "There just aren't a lot of buyers for magic items these days, few people are adventurers, it's going to sit for a while, there are security fees to prevent my shop from evil adventurers... No, I can't do 5,000 gp. I'm going to sell it for 5,000 gp. Most I can give you is 2,500.... No, I really don't think it's worth more than 5,000 gp but lemme call my buddy up he's an archmage and knows all about these things."
Slipperychicken
2012-07-02, 04:56 PM
Likewise for if the dragon tries to eat him, and he successfully flees in terror.
"Running away" is not the same as "overcoming".
Ranting Fool
2012-07-02, 05:28 PM
...NPCs level the same way PCs do. They complete encounters of an appropriate EL. You don't have to complete encounters by killing things, whether you're a PC or an NPC. PCs just happen to have more encounters in a shorter period of time, which is kind of why they're the PCs.
DM: "Nameless NPC you've managed to survive dinner with your In-Laws without them disowning your wife thanks to a timely use of diplomacy you gain 500xp"
DM: "Your Girl Friend asked you if her bum does in fact look big in that platemail suit you crafted, you successfully changed the subject and avoided a potentially painful encounter, gain 100xp"
Dr.Epic
2012-07-02, 05:30 PM
I think they gain XP by just repeating the same phrase over and over again.:smallwink::smallbiggrin:
ericgrau
2012-07-02, 05:58 PM
"Sigh, times are tough."
"Sigh, times are tough."
"Sigh, times are tough."
"Sigh, times are tough."
Video game NPCs got an xp farming bot yo. Working towards becoming the villains in the next game.
TuggyNE
2012-07-03, 05:20 AM
"Sigh, times are tough."
"Sigh, times are tough."
"Sigh, times are tough."
"Sigh, times are tough."
Video game NPCs got an xp farming bot yo. Working towards becoming the villains in the next game.
Like Adventurers (http://adventurers.keenspot.com/d/0225.html) always tells us (http://adventurers.keenspot.com/d/20011121.html).
supermonkeyjoe
2012-07-03, 05:29 AM
Wasn't there a session writeup someone did of a one on one RP where the player was a commoner? I seem to recall encounters involved a lot of fetching things, taming an irate horse, looking after a dog and things like that. It was more interesting than it sounds :smallyuk:
Salanmander
2012-07-03, 11:24 AM
Maybe they kick a housecat that's trying to steal their food, and pray they survive.
Well, you see, there's this really bored Wizard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)..
Wasn't there a session writeup someone did of a one on one RP where the player was a commoner? I seem to recall encounters involved a lot of fetching things, taming an irate horse, looking after a dog and things like that. It was more interesting than it sounds :smallyuk:
Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign)'s the big popular thread. I can't believe how many entries that got.
Doug Lampert
2012-07-03, 01:26 PM
"Running away" is not the same as "overcoming".
OTOH the dragon may get XP for overcoming those pesky adventurers and keeping its gold. And unless they are something silly fast like epic monks it gets the dragon lunch too as running people can't fight back effectively and dragons are (much) faster and have (much) better senses than you do....
A juvenile red, CR10 and too young to cast spells at all yet moves 40' on the ground and 150' in the air, has spell-like locate object 4/day to help find things like your gear, without buffs or gear has +21 to spot and listen, has double range vision in normal light, 4x human in low light, darkvision 120', and blindsense 60'.
Go ahead, try running. You can't run and you can't hide. Teleporting away has real potential until the dragon gets Dimensional Anchor, but running?
Novawurmson
2012-07-03, 03:17 PM
In a secret pre-game session involving only himself, the DM awards his excellently-roleplayed Goblin NPC sufficient experience to advance to 9th level. He then pats himself on the back before attending a session involving three other people.
That's why the BBEG is so powerful: The DM puts so much time and energy into making his backstory and personality - that, and killing all the other insolent fools who stand in his way (also played by the DM).
Slipperychicken
2012-07-03, 03:47 PM
OTOH the dragon may get XP for overcoming those pesky adventurers and keeping its gold. And unless they are something silly fast like epic monks it gets the dragon lunch too as running people can't fight back effectively and dragons are (much) faster and have (much) better senses than you do....
A juvenile red, CR10 and too young to cast spells at all yet moves 40' on the ground and 150' in the air, has spell-like locate object 4/day to help find things like your gear, without buffs or gear has +21 to spot and listen, has double range vision in normal light, 4x human in low light, darkvision 120', and blindsense 60'.
Go ahead, try running. You can't run and you can't hide. Teleporting away has real potential until the dragon gets Dimensional Anchor, but running?
Oxford Dictonary Website: Overcome
defeat (an opponent); prevail:
without firing a shot they overcame the guards
Running away from a dragon does not mean you defeated it, nor does it mean you prevailed against it, however difficult running away might be. It means that you avoided the encounter, and do not deserve the same xp as the guy who cut its head off (or stealthily stole its hoard, or convinced it to back off).
A Zombie does not get xp for escaping the Cleric who turned it. You do not gain xp for defeating the US army if you watch a parade walk by, piss yourself, then run home screaming like a little girl. Even if you are wanted by the army for some reason.
A friendly bank teller is not an obstacle to you retrieving the contents of your bank account. The big hunky guy getting your money for you is not an obstacle to you getting your money. You do not gain xp for withdrawing your own money from a bank. You do not gain xp for flashing your ticket to a bouncer as you walk past. Those are not challenges, they don't have CR as such, and you do not "defeat" or "overcome" them.
Doug Lampert
2012-07-03, 04:14 PM
Running away from a dragon does not mean you defeated it, nor does it mean you prevailed against it, however difficult running away might be. It means that you avoided the encounter, and do not deserve the same xp as the guy who cut its head off (or stealthily stole its hoard, or convinced it to back off).
A Zombie does not get xp for escaping the Cleric who turned it. You do not gain xp for defeating the US army if you watch a parade walk by, piss yourself, then run home screaming like a little girl. Even if you are wanted by the army for some reason.
A friendly bank teller is not an obstacle to you retrieving the contents of your bank account. The big hunky guy getting your money for you is not an obstacle to you getting your money. You do not gain xp for withdrawing your own money from a bank. You do not gain xp for flashing your ticket to a bouncer as you walk past. Those are not challenges, they don't have CR as such, and you do not "defeat" or "overcome" them.
I'm not quite clear on why you quoted me claiming that the one doing the chasing might get XP prior to that little tirade.
Nothing you say is in any way relevant to what I said since the CLERIC DOES get XP for driving off the Zombie.
Similarly the DRAGON DOES get XP for driving off the adventurers, especially if he catches them from behind and eats them (as I point out is inevitable if he wants to do so and people are running rather than teleporting).
We seem to be in violent agreement.
Ranting Fool
2012-07-03, 04:16 PM
... You do not gain xp for flashing your ticket to a bouncer as you walk past. Those are not challenges, they don't have CR as such, and you do not "defeat" or "overcome" them.
or rather they are so easy they count you wouldn't get any xp for it (See page 39 DMG) :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:
I always just handwave it and some level up as the campaign goes on. Some, such as a fellow NPC adventuring party, would level up quite fast (though still slower then the PC's) others, barkeeper / friendly cleric, I would make it take years to pass before they level up.
Though once I had PC's who wanted to buff up a towns guard by crafting them all MW gear and hiring a weapon master to drill them (as well as spending downtime to each them the finer points of hitting people) I had the guards level up a few levels in Warrior in a few months :smalltongue::smallcool:
Slipperychicken
2012-07-03, 04:41 PM
We seem to be in violent agreement.
...Oh. My apologies, I misread your post and thought you meant the opposite of what you really did. :smallannoyed:
LadyLexi
2012-07-03, 07:25 PM
Eggs, thanks for linking the story about the commoner Joe. I'm really liking it.
The same way adventurers do, overcoming chalanges. It happens off screen.
An NPC is given a level when it is first designed or introduced representing what it has done in its' life up to this point.
In my current game NPC's advance at the end of each year with rolls for many things including whether or not they level up.
The roll simulates the results of the years encounters causing the NPC to gain one or more levels or possibly die or lose levels.
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