View Full Version : Fool me twice...
Ranting Fool
2012-06-30, 04:01 PM
Whats a good way to get a half decent sense motive if it isn't a class skill?
I'm mainly thinking for a level 10ish Dwarf Wizard but the question applies to most classes.
How can you have enough skill so that a half decent bluffer doesn't just fool you even if you are a higher level?
"Oh yes good sir allow me to pore you some wine"
"no no I didn't know that item was cursed... honest!"
"It was the butler that did it!"
VGLordR2
2012-06-30, 04:23 PM
You could use the custom magic item rules to create an item that gives you a competence bonus. I think it caps out at +30, which should generally be more than enough.
It's hard to go too wrong with Martial Study (Setting Sun Maneuver)
EDIT:
And silly Item Familiar abuse is the best kind of Item Familiar abuse!
NerfTW
2012-06-30, 04:39 PM
House rule circumstance bonuses. For instance, if you're in enemy territory, you're not going to accept a random gift, that would be stupid. If you meet a farmer on the road, no amount of bluffing should be able to convince you that he's a powerful warlord with an army just over that hill, but don't go and check!
Ranting Fool
2012-06-30, 04:50 PM
House rule circumstance bonuses. For instance, if you're in enemy territory, you're not going to accept a random gift, that would be stupid. If you meet a farmer on the road, no amount of bluffing should be able to convince you that he's a powerful warlord with an army just over that hill, but don't go and check!
oh I do give circumstance if the bluff is WAY out there. "Dude you don't know this yet but you are a polly'ed Red Dragon who has lost his memory! You know what you should do right? Go out and start burning down the town. Here is a box of matches until you burn enough things to change back to your true form"
One of my players is stacking a 20+ bluff at the moment at level 8 Warlock (and he hasn't been trying that hard) and I'm happy for him to bluff the vast majority of people he comes across without any/little risk of failure. But some NPC's i'd like to have a bit of a chance not to Auto Fail (I'm fine with him having good odds) Leaders of Colleges of Magic, High Priests, Trade Princes, Artificers, Dragons ect (though I'm sure some of them get sense motive as class skill)
Bluff can only convince someone that you believe what you are saying, not that someone else should take a particular course of action. Diplomacy is the skill which tries to get people to do things that are beneficial to you.
dascarletm
2012-06-30, 04:57 PM
If you're a player and not an NPC you technically can do whatever you want.
It isn't a magical compulsion so being convinced of something doesn't mean your really have to do anything.
example:
Mysterious Guest, "this wine isn't poisoned."
You, "Ah, well I'm sorry to be rude, but I don't eat or drink anything I have not seen prepared. I have many enemies out there, no disrespect."
Ranting Fool
2012-06-30, 05:17 PM
Bluff can only convince someone that you believe what you are saying, not that someone else should take a particular course of action. Diplomacy is the skill which tries to get people to do things that are beneficial to you.
You know I had forgotten that :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:
LadyLexi
2012-06-30, 05:34 PM
It's good sportsmanship (geekpersonship?) to go along with a bluff if you fail your check by 5 or more.
It happened in a game we were playing, our rogue who had previously demonstrated a knowledge of the arcane and geography announced to us that we were at a temple of ice giants and we all needed to be really quiet. He scored 30+ on the bluff and the nearest score was mine at a 23. Most of us went along with it, being careful, casting a few defensive spells but one of the players, who refused to even roll, started freaking out about it out of character that we didn't need to listen cause bluff only convinces you that they believe it, not that they are speaking the truth. Unless you have a really good reason (but sir, this orc is your wife!), you should maybe go along with it, for the game's sake.
NPC's are a different story, if its story relevant then they are able to do what they need to in order to continue things on, but this should be as rare as creatures immune to all damage. Unless something actually has a high enough score.
Slipperychicken
2012-06-30, 06:08 PM
Bluff can only convince someone that you believe what you are saying, not that someone else should take a particular course of action. Diplomacy is the skill which tries to get people to do things that are beneficial to you.
SRD; Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)
A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.
A successful Bluff check means the target believes you. End of story. Also, it does make the target react as you wish.
A successful Bluff check means the target believes you. End of story. Also, it does make the target react as you wish.
Huh. I suppose so. I've never seen a DM actually use bluff that way, probably because it is pretty silly.
Slipperychicken
2012-06-30, 06:44 PM
Huh. I suppose so. I've never seen a DM actually use bluff that way, probably because it is pretty silly.
That's how lying works in the real world. If you do it right, the guy believes you, and will act as though the lie is true, until convinced otherwise. If he's skeptical, he might seek more information, but that's usually the exception. If you do it well enough in real life, which happens more often than we'd like to admit, the target might even believe you in spite of contradicting evidence.
I do admit that, in the real world, lying can be overpoweringly effective. I won't name any examples, but a well-executed deception can help accumulate massive wealth and power, as well as gain significant leverage over an individual's actions (even more so if the individual is gullible or trustworthy).
That's how lying works in the real world. If you do it right, the guy believes you, and will act as though the lie is true, until convinced otherwise. If he's skeptical, he might seek more information, but that's usually the exception. If you do it well enough in real life, which happens more often than we'd like to admit, the target might even believe you in spite of contradicting evidence.
I do admit that, in the real world, lying can be overpoweringly effective. I won't name any examples, but a well-executed deception can help accumulate massive wealth and power, as well as gain significant leverage over an individual's actions (even more so if the individual is gullible or trustworthy).
Lying can convince someone that you believe something and if you do it convincingly, they may believe you to be a credible source, sure. Even urban legends going around until everyone thinks Mr. Rogers was a marine proves that you can convince someone of something without evidence.
But acting as if the lie is true is totally different than causing them to act as per your suggestion. The way the SRD puts it, you can say a lie and the person will believe it THEN you can tell them how they should respond to said lie and they will do it even if that isn't how they would act, even if the lie were true. Which is pretty silly.
I mean, I could not tell someone Mr. Rogers is a marine and so they should go write a webcomic about Mr. Rogers military adventures and have them actually do it if they don't make webcomics. Even if they do, they probably aren't very interested. The best liar in the world couldn't use a lie to make them write that comic. Convincing them to do that is an entirely different skill.
Slipperychicken
2012-06-30, 07:29 PM
Lying can convince someone that you believe something and if you do it convincingly, they may believe you to be a credible source, sure. Even urban legends going around until everyone thinks Mr. Rogers was a marine proves that you can convince someone of something without evidence.
But acting as if the lie is true is totally different than causing them to act as per your suggestion. The way the SRD puts it, you can say a lie and the person will believe it THEN you can tell them how they should respond to said lie and they will do it even if that isn't how they would act, even if the lie were true. Which is pretty silly.
I mean, I could not tell someone Mr. Rogers is a marine and so they should go write a webcomic about Mr. Rogers military adventures and have them actually do it if they don't make webcomics. Even if they do, they probably aren't very interested. The best liar in the world couldn't use a lie to make them write that comic. Convincing them to do that is an entirely different skill.
The idea, although not explicitly spelled out, is that the content of a lie encourages the action you want. Shouting "Fire!" will cause people to evacuate in a panic upon success. Telling someone that his allies betrayed him, so he should join you, causes the target to aid you upon success. Also, there is a table of modifiers for how believable the lie is and how much is asked of the target.
For the Webcomic example, you would convince the target that writing the webcomic is an excellent idea: it would be fun, and the author might make a bit of money (ads? donations?) from how compelling the story is. Presenting something like a rough outline of the story/plot, and a model for how he would make money off it, would most likely be the way to go.
Blind Orc
2012-06-30, 07:35 PM
A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.
and it is called feint
TuggyNE
2012-06-30, 07:37 PM
For the Webcomic example, you would convince the target that writing the webcomic is an excellent idea: it would be fun, and the author might make a bit of money (ads? donations?) from how compelling the story is. Presenting something like a rough outline of the story/plot, and a model for how he would make money off it, would most likely be the way to go.
This is possible, but only by using the epic skill usage for a non-magical suggestion (+50 to DC). Otherwise it's far too involved to fit in a single round, and runs afoul of the the "not a suggestion spell" clause.
Slipperychicken
2012-06-30, 08:07 PM
This is possible, but only by using the epic skill usage for a non-magical suggestion (+50 to DC). Otherwise it's far too involved to fit in a single round, and runs afoul of the the "not a suggestion spell" clause.
I never said it would be easy :smalltongue: What I mean is that the target's belief (that writing the webcomic would be fun/worthwhile and make money) would encourage him, perhaps strongly, to write one in the future, which is what one would reasonably expect a lie to do. Whether the target would actually write the webcomic, barring Suggestion via Epic Bluff, is uncertain.
and it is called feint
Feinting in Combat is just one use of Bluff. Note the word "usually", which implies that other uses may produce a desired reaction for more than 1 round. Someone convinced that the building she occupies is on fire, for example, would often react for more than one round, whether to investigate the claim or evacuate the building.
House rule circumstance bonuses. For instance, if you're in enemy territory, you're not going to accept a random gift, that would be stupid. If you meet a farmer on the road, no amount of bluffing should be able to convince you that he's a powerful warlord with an army just over that hill, but don't go and check!
that's not a house rule, that's SRD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm
the person sensing motive gets a modifier anywhere from -5 to +20 depending on how outlandish the lie is.
The idea, although not explicitly spelled out, is that the content of a lie encourages the action you want. Shouting "Fire!" will cause people to evacuate in a panic upon success. Telling someone that his allies betrayed him, so he should join you, causes the target to aid you upon success. Also, there is a table of modifiers for how believable the lie is and how much is asked of the target.
For the Webcomic example, you would convince the target that writing the webcomic is an excellent idea: it would be fun, and the author might make a bit of money (ads? donations?) from how compelling the story is. Presenting something like a rough outline of the story/plot, and a model for how he would make money off it, would most likely be the way to go.
Sure, but I mean, the way the SRD writes it you could shout "Fire, run out of here!" And a creature immune to fire would still inexplicably run away since the description not only says the creature accepts the circumstances but that they do what you want out of it. Now that I think about it, I 'have' seen DMs use bluff this way, (I just wasn't remembering well,) and it without fail lead to people lying in situations where there was absolutely no reason to lie and the truth SHOULD have been just as convincing as the lie. Like, they would be questioned about something then lie about it for no other reason except they could then use that check to make the NPC do something.
Slipperychicken
2012-07-01, 01:21 AM
Sure, but I mean, the way the SRD writes it you could shout "Fire, run out of here!" And a creature immune to fire would still inexplicably run away since the description not only says the creature accepts the circumstances but that they do what you want out of it. Now that I think about it, I 'have' seen DMs use bluff this way, (I just wasn't remembering well,) and it without fail lead to people lying in situations where there was absolutely no reason to lie and the truth SHOULD have been just as convincing as the lie. Like, they would be questioned about something then lie about it for no other reason except they could then use that check to make the NPC do something.
The wording is somewhat poor there. Perhaps that's supposed to be covered up by the sentence immediately thereafter: "Bluff, however, is not a Suggestion spell".
Flickerdart
2012-07-01, 01:43 AM
The wording is somewhat poor there. Perhaps that's supposed to be covered up by the sentence immediately thereafter: "Bluff, however, is not a Suggestion spell".
Unless you're playing with the ELH, in which case it totally is.
Drelua
2012-07-01, 01:44 AM
Sure, but I mean, the way the SRD writes it you could shout "Fire, run out of here!" And a creature immune to fire would still inexplicably run away since the description not only says the creature accepts the circumstances but that they do what you want out of it.
Actually, that makes perfect sense. I had a character with fire resistance 30 that decided not to leave a bar when it was on fire because it's just d6/round. Then he couldn't breathe because of the smoke. Then he barely made a Reflex save to avoid a falling support beam. Just because you can't burn doesn't mean the building can't.
The point still stands of course, your example just reminded me of a funny story is all. Besides, the circumstance modifiers are left up to DM discretion, and he could probably just decide that what your saying can't possibly work. Here's a better example: try telling a black dragon that he should get out of the water because it's about to turn to acid. I don't care if you're a level 20 bard with glibness up, he'll laugh in your face while he spits acid on you.
Ranting Fool
2012-07-01, 05:50 AM
...it without fail lead to people lying in situations where there was absolutely no reason to lie and the truth SHOULD have been just as convincing as the lie. Like, they would be questioned about something then lie about it for no other reason except they could then use that check to make the NPC do something.
This is what has started to happen. The warlock (who is one of the sub-human races, death touched or something) always uses disguise and a hat of alter self.
Anyway he faked his death while at sea (A rather convoluted plan) in order to steal a dragon's egg from a trade ship. He flew to shore (Has the Warlock SLA flight) but ended up outside the town walls very late at night. He doesn't have his cash on him and he doesn't want to fly over the walls (because they had been attacked by a dragon a few days prior and may well be watching the skies) so he tries to talk his way past the gate guards (rather than just say, sleep outside for a few hours and just strolled in when it was daylight) he decides the best way to get past the guards is to say that he is a massively wealthy merchant who has just now been mugged and needs to get in the city.
The Guards who are well versed with all the merchants (there isn't a whole lot of trade here and it's mostly by sea) think something is a little "off" so showing great concern they invite him into the guard house for a bit of food and to take a statement. Once inside the guards go "right who are you and why are you trying to sneak into town at this hour" to which the warlock responds "I remove my illusions and shout: I am a vampire! You better let me go or I'll drain your blood" (His race does look pale and have small fangs)
He managed to fly out of town but while funny this whole side quest (where the others party members had to go off and make food as it took so long) was done because of endless use of bluff that he never needed to use at the start (No one knew he had the egg, and while large it was late at night there was a good chance he could have just slipped it into his large number or sacks/food supplies rather than fake his own death)
Anyway the point is because he has a solid +20ish bonus to bluff he feels he has to use it almost all the time despite the fact that his life would be easier if he didn't act so damn sneaky all the time :D
On a side note he now does have a plan to fake a vampire attack on the town, by disguising himself and spreading rumors of an evil vampire then coming into town as a "Vampire Hunter" and trying to get paid to hunt himself down. Which I found rather funny though I can spot quite a lot of things that could go wrong :P
Acanous
2012-07-01, 09:02 AM
The simple fact of the matter is that it's far easier to pump Bluff than it is Sense Motive.
Your best bet here is to have the wealthy, influential people of a large city ascribe to a "Believe, but verify" system, where if someone runs up to them and starts talking about very important things, they A: send mooks to deal with it, while B: they take the person back to a family/guild/guard building, warded with Zone of Truth, and have them repeat the statement for a legal witnesses (Like a cleric who has Sense Motive maxed). A DC20 Sense Motive gives you a "Hunch" about something. Have the cleric take a "Hunch" to see if he should cast Detect Magic. If the guy lights up, Dispel Magic to get rid of any buffs while he's in the ZoT.
The player will get his bluff off, which is good for the player and possibly the party, but he'll be in some seriously hot water if he goes around abusing it.
ericgrau
2012-07-01, 10:34 AM
I think "react as you wish" gets interpreted too liberally. Not only is bluff not a suggestion, it certainly isn't a dominate. It's implied that "react as you wish" is within the scope of being lied to, or as I tend to say: "a Bluff is a bluff".
Con artists manipulate people into doing what they want all the time, but that doesn't mean they can make people do just anything.
Slipperychicken
2012-07-01, 12:04 PM
If the guy lights up, Dispel Magic to get rid of any buffs while he's in the ZoT.
He has a decent chance of dispelling the Zone of Truth too, assuming this is the same guy who cast it. Not to mention it'd be tricky to confirm whether the target failed his save against the Zone, even after all his buffs were down.
Ranting Fool
2012-07-01, 02:59 PM
... and have them repeat the statement for a legal witnesses (Like a cleric who has Sense Motive maxed).
See I quite like that idea, as Kings and other leaders tend to have "Trusted Advisers"
QuidEst
2012-07-01, 05:10 PM
Ooh, goody… I was just thinking about this!
I have a high-INT, middling-WIS character with no ranks in Sense Motive. But he's really smart. The result is that I don't bother rolling Sense Motive- as a rule, he's forced to accept what people say as being true. Until they slip up. If there's any inaccuracy, his high INT gives him a darn good reason to catch it.
For instance:
Warlock: "Booga booga! I'm a vampire! You should run!"
Wizard: *rolls Knowledge(Religion)* "Then you're an awfully sorry excuse for a vampire. Your complexion, while pasty, has visible veins, and a vampire with canines like that would have starved centuries ago. Moreover, I'm quite certain I didn't allow you across the threshold. The wards would have left you in a tidy bundle of ashes. And what's this? Is that a shadow you're casting? I don't think I'll bother fetching a mirror at all, as a matter of fact."
The wizard now knows that the Warlock is a liar.
Quick breakdown!
High-INT: Catch him in his own mistakes, make use of any trained Knowledge available.
High-WIS: Roll Sense Motive. He'll flub eventually. High-WIS characters can also roll for a hunch to investigate, as mentioned.
High-CHA: Bet that Warlock doesn't have great Sense Motive himself. Bluff right back! It'd be funny to stick him up against a court bard.
No really high mental scores: This sort of person should be fooled and duped. The Warlock has put a lot of work into getting crazy bluffing skills, and normal people are going to fall for it.
"I remove my illusions and shout: I am a vampire! You better let me go or I'll drain your blood" (His race does look pale and have small fangs)
see I would consider that "hard to believe" considering he was just trying to sneak into the town undetected, that when pressured he suddenly changed his mind, and the fact that the guards don't know if he's dismissing or casting an illusion, merely that he's capable of it. That adds up to at least "hard to believe" which in my mind should be (as per SRD) +10 or more if the context of the situation makes it even harder to believe.
If he rolls and only has a +10 then (his 20 minus their 10 bonus) and his roll is low, you've got 3 rolls to beat it which isn't impossible.
make sure there's a real penalty (depending on the situation, more serious thing he's trying to get away with more serious the penalty for getting caught) The reason not to lie in real life is because getting caught has negative consequences (there's all that, "it's not nice" stuff too, but lying to police will get you arrested, lying to parents will get you grounded, lying to friends you'll lose their trust... so give him a reason to not want to get caught lying)
Psyren
2012-07-02, 07:27 PM
A successful Bluff check means the target believes you. End of story. Also, it does make the target react as you wish.
Not quite. The important part of your quote:
A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish... OR believes something that you want it to believe.
It either believes you, OR reacts as you wish, not both. And as SowZ pointed out, "believing you" can also mean "I believe that you believe it."
Slipperychicken
2012-07-02, 07:44 PM
Not quite. The important part of your quote:
It either believes you, OR reacts as you wish, not both. And as SowZ pointed out, "believing you" can also mean "I believe that you believe it."
Yeah, I did miss the "or" in that sentence. The actual text ("A successful Bluff check indicates that the target...believes something that you want it to believe") is very broad, and only makes sense if the Bluff-er chooses what that 'something' is. 'Something' especially, is an extremely broad term, since that could be anything from a three word statement to a whole ideology.
Khedrac
2012-07-03, 04:35 AM
Although it's now quite RAW I think the other point with bluff should be that whilst you may temporarily convince someone, how they react is down to them NOT you.
E.g. Bluff: "your allies have betrayed you - you should help us."
NPC1: "Sob, this is the end, my life is meanignless" - goes off to cry in a corner. Bluffer's ally - "great, now how do we get the information..."
NPC2: "Right - I'll look away from this door for 1 minute, the room you want is 3rd on the left, but don't let me see you enter." (I.e. what the bluffer wanted."
NPC3: "Right, I'm off" - abandons post - not the desired result but will probably do.
NPC4: "Curses, but I will show them what faithfulness really means." (NPC is extremely lawful and holds to his word regardless).
NPC5: "I'll kill them!" and runs off (probably followed by the party).
Etc.
I'm not saying things like option 4 should be common, but neither should things always go the same way. When I DM I tone town diplomacy so that the diplomat gets a sense of what the NPC is/is not willing to do and can steer the conversation. This stops the rampant abuse of waltzing through the guards, but can gain the players surprise or useful information - the guards susually still won't let the diplomat pass, but may will probably let slip useful information like who's be through and when they expect the boss. After all, no trained security guard will let his friends through unless he either has the authority to let people in on his own decision or he knows he won't get fired - the club bouncers happily lets friends in, the military complex guard tells his mates what time he gets off so they can meet for a drink.
Ranting Fool
2012-07-03, 11:46 AM
... When I DM I tone town diplomacy so that the diplomat gets a sense of what the NPC is/is not willing to do and can steer the conversation. This stops the rampant abuse of waltzing through the guards, but can gain the players surprise or useful information - the guards susually still won't let the diplomat pass, but may will probably let slip useful information like who's be through and when they expect the boss. After all, no trained security guard will let his friends through unless he either has the authority to let people in on his own decision or he knows he won't get fired - the club bouncers happily lets friends in, the military complex guard tells his mates what time he gets off so they can meet for a drink.
When I've worked in retail I would never have let even my closet friends shoplift (not that they do) but even jokes of "oh you wouldn't mind would you" were met with a stoney-faced-glare or a cheerful "Wait till I get off shift and I'll buy it for you"
Ask yourself honestly how many people do you know in your life who you would risk jail or death for to help them do something selfish (More letting them into a cash office rather then say helping them if they are attacked by an angry duck:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:)
Yeah, I did miss the "or" in that sentence. The actual text ("A successful Bluff check indicates that the target...believes something that you want it to believe") is very broad, and only makes sense if the Bluff-er chooses what that 'something' is. 'Something' especially, is an extremely broad term, since that could be anything from a three word statement to a whole ideology.
Which is why bluff should be limited only to dishonest statements usually about a situation or identity, not about belief systems or philosophy especially when there are valid points on both side. I don't care if you are the greatest liar in the world, that won't allow you to argue the leader of a political party into switching to your party.
Shouldn't other factors come into consideration, too? If the guard of an evil castle is told that his master will kill him unless he lets the party, his good friends, inside the castle, but he already KNOWS that his master will painfully kill him if he lets anyone in, what will he do? Does believing someones bluff mean you believe it 100% so may still act against it because of other factors? IF bluff means people automatically believe a claim without evidence or proof other than the bluffers winning smile as opposed to something they have proof of it is wholly supernatural.
Tyndmyr
2012-07-03, 01:18 PM
Lying can convince someone that you believe something and if you do it convincingly, they may believe you to be a credible source, sure. Even urban legends going around until everyone thinks Mr. Rogers was a marine proves that you can convince someone of something without evidence.
But acting as if the lie is true is totally different than causing them to act as per your suggestion. The way the SRD puts it, you can say a lie and the person will believe it THEN you can tell them how they should respond to said lie and they will do it even if that isn't how they would act, even if the lie were true. Which is pretty silly.
This is correct. Getting a Suggestion effect out of Bluff is an epic skill check, at a +50 modifier.
Trying to lobby for the same effect without the modifier is just sketchy.
Slipperychicken
2012-07-03, 02:23 PM
Which is why bluff should be limited only to dishonest statements usually about a situation or identity, not about belief systems or philosophy especially when there are valid points on both side. I don't care if you are the greatest liar in the world, that won't allow you to argue the leader of a political party into switching to your party.
Shouldn't other factors come into consideration, too? If the guard of an evil castle is told that his master will kill him unless he lets the party, his good friends, inside the castle, but he already KNOWS that his master will painfully kill him if he lets anyone in, what will he do? Does believing someones bluff mean you believe it 100% so may still act against it because of other factors? IF bluff means people automatically believe a claim without evidence or proof other than the bluffers winning smile as opposed to something they have proof of it is wholly supernatural.
That's what the often-linked table of modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) is for: simulating the effects of "other considerations", even when they seem impossible. A DM can assign an even larger bonus to the Sense Motive check, should he find that a +20 is too little to simulate the task's difficulty. Do bear scale in mind: a +20 to the opposing side does make an opposed roll totally impossible for an average person. The guard in your example would likely receive a +10 or +20 to his Sense Motive check, because the lie "puts the target at significant risk". Depending on how credible the master's claim is, the guard may receive a +20 for "almost too incredible to consider".
It's much like there's a set of modifiers for jumping 80ft in the air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm), hitting a single grain of sand with a sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm), slipping one's whole body through a 2 inch hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist), or opening a lock by tapping it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#openLock). People (preposterously-skilled, chosen-by-destiny-type people, mind you) in dnd can perform acts which are simply impossible in the real world, often without the aid of magic, because it's fantasy. Some people can do the impossible. Some people can even kill with a mere thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm) and bring back the dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm).
What the target of a successful Bluff does with he information he now believes to be true depends on its goals and personality. It retains the ability to make decisions, although the lie will most likely have an impact on the decision-making process.
That's what the often-linked table of modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) is for: simulating the effects of "other considerations", even when they seem impossible. A DM can assign an even larger bonus to the Sense Motive check, should he find that a +20 is too little to simulate the task's difficulty. Do bear scale in mind: a +20 to the opposing side does make an opposed roll totally impossible for an average person. The guard in your example would likely receive a +10 or +20 to his Sense Motive check, because the lie "puts the target at significant risk". Depending on how credible the master's claim is, the guard may receive a +20 for "almost too incredible to consider".
It's much like there's a set of modifiers for jumping 80ft in the air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm), hitting a single grain of sand with a sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm), slipping one's whole body through a 2 inch hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist), or opening a lock by tapping it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#openLock). People (preposterously-skilled, chosen-by-destiny-type people, mind you) in dnd can perform acts which are simply impossible in the real world, often without the aid of magic, because it's fantasy. Some people can do the impossible. Some people can even kill with a mere thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm) and bring back the dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm).
What the target of a successful Bluff does with he information he now believes to be true depends on its goals and personality. It retains the ability to make decisions, although the lie will most likely have an impact on the decision-making process.
See, that is my disagreement with how the SRD puts it. A bluff check should be able to convince someone that a situation is true, but not control their response to this situation. This encourages thinking about your bluff a bit. The simpler the bluff, the more predictable the response. And the DC system seems kind of wonky, to me. A reasonably intelligent person who has actual proof of something right in front of him should not be able to be dissuaded from believing that thing because someone is an epicly good liar any more than an entire city should drop what they are doing and fanatically follow someone because they leaped through the air with a jump check in the hundreds.
And if the bluff is absurd enough, (you, sir guard, are actually a dream character in the REM cycle of an opium high badger,) the highest DC in the world should do nothing more than convince the NPC that YOU believe it is true.
I guess I take issue with the idea of slapping DCs onto something to explain away the impossible. Like being able to pass through a solid magical object with a high enough escape artist. I mean, it is magic.
The comparison to other fantastic skill checks I understand. And I am okay with getting people to believe absurd lies. "I am actually the king of the nation to the east." with a high enough DC. But controlling their actions is outside the realm of what a bluff can possibly do since it can only effect what someone believes and you can hope to predict what they will do with this new, false information, but not choose what that action is.
Fitz10019
2012-07-04, 09:25 AM
He has a decent chance of dispelling the Zone of Truth too, assuming this is the same guy who cast it. Not to mention it'd be tricky to confirm whether the target failed his save against the Zone, even after all his buffs were down.
That's not hard to determine. Just tell him to say, "Water is not water." If the zone reacts, you know he failed his save. If the zone doesn't react, you know it's useless against him. You either save against the zone, or not. It's not a series of statement-by-statement saves.
Ranting Fool
2012-07-04, 09:59 AM
That's not hard to determine. Just tell him to say, "Water is not water." If the zone reacts, you know he failed his save. If the zone doesn't react, you know it's useless against him. You either save against the zone, or not. It's not a series of statement-by-statement saves.
Unless when he says "water is not water" he decides to bluff so you think it worked....
Slipperychicken
2012-07-04, 11:40 AM
Unless when he says "water is not water" he decides to bluff so you think it worked....
And if this guy is good enough at Bluffing that you need a Zone of Truth on him, he can probably fool you, too.
I think Detect Thoughts would work much better for this purpose. It requires a DC 100 Bluff to disguise surface thoughts. You just spam it (probably off an item) till he fails the save, then keep it going until you know what you want.
Ranting Fool
2012-07-04, 02:01 PM
And if this guy is good enough at Bluffing that you need a Zone of Truth on him, he can probably fool you, too.
I think Detect Thoughts would work much better for this purpose. It requires a DC 100 Bluff to disguise surface thoughts. You just spam it (probably off an item) till he fails the save, then keep it going until you know what you want.
Or if you have a bunch of level 1 guys with wands and they all confer :smalltongue:
Slipperychicken
2012-07-04, 02:05 PM
Or if you have a bunch of level 1 guys with wands and they all confer :smalltongue:
And make sure they're all Astral Projected (via Planar-Bound Nightmares) so they don't waste actual wand charges, and so they won't be killed on the job.
Fitz10019
2012-07-04, 03:11 PM
Unless when he says "water is not water" he decides to bluff so you think it worked....
You mean with eyebrow wiggling? That's a Perform check.
Voidling
2012-07-05, 05:37 PM
I've been thinking about this post and I think inventing some Scenarios may help.
Scenarios #1
a player rogue is running away from town guards (for what ever reason). He quick puts on a hat of disguise wants he gets out of sight and turns into a market stall owner. The town guards run into view, the player bluffs pretending to stack some boxes (preform: acting could give a bonus) and say that some one ran (player now pick which way to try and send the guards). If the disguise fool the guards, they will want to believe the bluff (bonus to bluff).
So I think bluff can control other people but only with a limit context, which way to send the guards for example. If a player(s) try to create a very convincing context they could manipulate npc's more outlandishly. I add more Scenarios later and I welcome other creating theirs :smallsmile:
Slipperychicken
2012-07-05, 07:45 PM
I've been thinking about this post and I think inventing some Scenarios may help.
Scenarios #1
a player rogue is running away from town guards (for what ever reason). He quick puts on a hat of disguise wants he gets out of sight and turns into a market stall owner. The town guards run into view, the player bluffs pretending to stack some boxes (preform: acting could give a bonus) and say that some one ran (player now pick which way to try and send the guards). If the disguise fool the guards, they will want to believe the bluff (bonus to bluff).
So I think bluff can control other people but only with a limit context, which way to send the guards for example. If a player(s) try to create a very convincing context they could manipulate npc's more outlandishly. I add more Scenarios later and I welcome other creating theirs :smallsmile:
If the disguise worked, our PC has nothing to fear from the guards, Bluff or no. Unless they like harassing up random box-stackers, that is. Hopefully, there weren't any good citizens around to shout about an out-of-breath shapeshifter with guards on his heels :smallamused:
If he activated the Hat right around the corner, however, the guards would obviously know about Hats of Disguise and their uses, and may get a bonus on their Spot checks to see through it. Even without helpful witnesses.
Socratov
2012-07-06, 08:17 AM
Bluff can only convince someone that you believe what you are saying, not that someone else should take a particular course of action. Diplomacy is the skill which tries to get people to do things that are beneficial to you.
I know I'm a bit late to the party, but by raw this is correct. however, with enough creativity you can coerce someone into doing things as you like them to do by bluffing information and giving a suggestion (just as social intercourse, not the spell or sla or anything) as to how they would help themselves (while secretly helping you).
Example: you want the town burned down, but not by your fault so you bluff someone into believing he is a polymorphed red dragon who has lost his memory. You could bluff that burning enough things (like the town) will awaken his true nature and kindly give him some matches to show you mean him well.
this will cost you a lot of bluffranks since the lie is waayy out there, but with enough enough bluff you can make that. result is the town gets burned and soemone else did it. No using diplomacy hacks :smallamused:
Ranting Fool
2012-07-06, 08:41 AM
Example: you want the town burned down, but not by your fault so you bluff someone into believing he is a polymorphed red dragon who has lost his memory. You could bluff that burning enough things (like the town) will awaken his true nature and kindly give him some matches to show you mean him well.
this will cost you a lot of bluffranks since the lie is waayy out there, but with enough enough bluff you can make that. result is the town gets burned and soemone else did it. No using diplomacy hacks :smallamused:
Aye the lie is waaaaayy out there... but add in a few "magic items"
"This mirror I have shows your true form!"
While such crazy things could be done I would consider this rather hard.
On a slightly related note. A Barbarian was braking into a local jail (for info on something I can't remember) and he came across a Goblin who assures him that "He is a reincarnated Pally" Barbarian has no sense motive and low wisdom. The bluff worked and the Goblin Rogue soon turned on him:smallbiggrin: the player was equally amused and outraged... the lie was sooo out there that he thought it MUST be real :smallcool::smallwink:
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.