Rogue ACF interaction

[The Random NPC]

So I was looking for some ACF's for my rogue to trade out, and I noticed something I think would work by RAW. In Exemplars of Evil you can lose Trapfinding for Mimic, and have the option to reduce your Trap Sense bonus by one every time it would increase for an extra use of Mimic. Then you could drop your +0 Trap Sense for Penetrating Strike, effectively doubling your gain. Now, does anyone else see a problem with this? Am I missing something?

[Blind Orc]

You just lose the option to lower your trap sense in order to get extra mimic uses. Aka you are selling your trapfinding for a hat of disguise that works 1/day :smallbiggrin:

(+for some reason I had both books open right next to me, on the right pages too :smalltongue:)

[The Random NPC]

Wasn't there something about applying stuff in the most beneficial order? If there is wouldn't you have 2 uses of Disguise Self?
Wouldn't it go:
Level 1:Trade Trapfinding for Mimic
Level 3a: Reduce Trap sense bonus by 1 for extra use of Mimic
Level 3b: Trade Trap sense +0 for Penetrating strike
Level 6: Unable to reduce Trap sense because you traded it away
Total: Mimic 2/day, and Penetrating Strike.

[Blind Orc]

To be honest I don't know...but even if it works like that, I don't think it would be overpowered or something. The duration of disguise self is 10 mins/level, and the DC is not going higher than a hat of disguise. At 6th level he will be able to use it twice? For like 2 hours.

[Mando Knight]

In Pathfinder, you can't use two ACFs that affect the same ability, so as to avoid such questions. I'm not aware of such a rule in 3.5, though I wouldn't be surprised if there is one.

[The Random NPC]

I did forget to mention it is 3.5, but that sounds like a reasonable rule. I'll probably stick to just one use of Mimic, to avoid any arguments from my DM, but I'll see what he has to say about it.

[Diovid]

If you want a social rogue, you're much better being a changeling which get disguise self as a racial ability and then taking the 1st changeling rogue substitution level.

[Gwendol]

IMO penetrating strike is vastly superior to mimic as an ACF.

[Curmudgeon]

I did forget to mention it is 3.5, but that sounds like a reasonable rule. I'll probably stick to just one use of Mimic, to avoid any arguments from my DM, but I'll see what he has to say about it.
That's the right result. You can't drop your uses of trap sense when you don't have that class feature. I do suggest that you adopt the Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) rather than the Dungeonscape Penetrating Strike. The EtCR ACF makes it clear that you're still dealing sneak attack damage; Dungeonscape does not. That makes a huge difference when you pick up Craven, because Craven is a bonus to your sneak attack damage, and only bonus damage from dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit.


IMO penetrating strike is vastly superior to mimic as an ACF.
You're confused. Mimic replaces trapfinding; Penetrating Strike replaces trap sense. Now, Mimic can (optionally) gain extra uses by giving up some trap sense increases, but the ACF itself comes from trapfinding and isn't in conflict with Penetrating Strike.

[Blind Orc]

If you want a social rogue, you're much better being a changeling which get disguise self as a racial ability and then taking the 1st changeling rogue substitution level.

^ I play this thing. Take 10 on social skills rocks.

[The Random NPC]

If you want a social rogue, you're much better being a changeling which get disguise self as a racial ability and then taking the 1st changeling rogue substitution level.

I'm actually going for an assassin type, and was just looking at what I could trade out. The Pros and Cons of Changling vs Human would be:
Net gain of 1 skillpoint at level 1, 3, and 5
Disguise self as a Su ability
Bonus on some social skills
Bonus on saving throws vs sleep and charm
Loss of 1 feat
Loss of 1 Skillpoint every other level
Ability to take 10 on 5 social skills
Reduction in time for 2 social skills
I'll have to think about it, because that 1 feat is really useful.


That's the right result. You can't drop your uses of trap sense when you don't have that class feature. I do suggest that you adopt the Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) rather than the Dungeonscape Penetrating Strike. The EtCR ACF makes it clear that you're still dealing sneak attack damage; Dungeonscape does not. That makes a huge difference when you pick up Craven, because Craven is a bonus to your sneak attack damage, and only bonus damage from dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit.

I'll see if I can get a hold of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
Mimic says you can reduce the bonus from trapsense, but not that you actually lose it. Wouldn't that mean you still have it, with a 0 bonus? Like I said, I wouldn't actually use it that way, to avoid pissing off my DM, I'm just interested in what people think.
EDIT: I just thought of something, say I have 2d6 sneak attack, do I get 1 extra damage or 1d6?