[3.5] Dragonkin CR 3 (attention RBDMs!).

[Thurbane]

I've sometimes heard it said that Ogres can be a serious danger to an unprepared 3rd level party.

And today, I just noticed the Dragonkin (Draconomicon p.150). Also CR3, and (IMHO) a lot more hazardous to the health of a 3rd level party:

{table=head]Ogre|Dragonkin
Large Giant|Large Monstrous Humanoid
29hp|38hp
Initiative -1|Initiative +5
Speed 30|Speed 20, fly 40 (good)
AC 16 (hide armor)|AC 17 (no armor)
BAB +3|BAB +7
Attack: greatclub +8 (2d8+7)|Attack: 2 claws +10 (1d6+4) or longspear +10/+5 (2d6+6)
Special attacks: -|Special attacks: rake 1d6+2 (2 extra attacks at +10)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +1|Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +7
Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7|Str 19, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 13
[/table]

The main advantages of the Dragonkin is flight, and mutiple attacks.

I mean, it's no "That damn crab", but I still think it's a little over the top for CR3. What do people think?

Cheers - T

[Runestar]

I agree - the dragonkin seems pound for pound superior to the ogre in every way, even if you take away the flight.

They definitely screwed up on this. I would peg it at closer to cr4, but I also find the ogre is a tad weak for a cr3 (compared to a centaur, dire wolf or medium earth elemental), so I suppose it should be buffed a little as well.

[Flickerdart]

Your average level 3, say, Barbarian will have the following statistics:

Attack bonus +10 (+3 BAB, +4 Str, +2 Str from Rage, +1 masterwork weapon)
Damage 2d6+9
AC 15 (10+5 breastplate +2 Dexterity -2 Rage)
42 HP (12 + 6.5*2 + 9 from Con + 6 from Rage)

The dragonkin is much closer to the Barbarian than the Ogre is. More powerful, yes, but then it was CRed based on a solo fight against a party. By the time they're ready to face even two of these, the party will be level 5 and more than capable of giving them the boot.

[Thurbane]

True...I'm not saying one of these are going to stomp their way through even a semi-optimised party, but I do feel it's significantly tougher than most baseline CR3 monsters.

A flying opponent can present a significant challenge to a 3rd level party, though, especially when it's a heavy hitter and has decent saves (it also has Flyby Attack as a default feat). If the Dragonkin has time to prepare (it has respectable Spot and Listen scores) or if the party comes across it unexpectedly, I think it has a decent chance to take down one or more characters...

Against the 3rd level Barbarian, above, it will have a decent chance to win initiative. Assuming it's close enough, it can Flyby Attack him, land, and score an AoO as he approaches it. You're also assuming an 18 Str for the Barbarian - if you're going to be a bit more clinical in a comparison, I think it would be fairer to assume the Barbarian is using the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), so his Str is likely to be 15 (17 for a 1/2 Orc), +4 when raging (assume he hasn't used his 1/day rage already). Not everybody uses point buy, and even when they do, the points required to buy an 18 can be prohibitive, if you want a character with more than one decent ability score.

[Flickerdart]

Or he's an orc, and only actually paid for 14 of those points.

[SowZ]

I don't see why people even go half-orc. I mean, you are trading a +2 Str for a -2 wisdom and if you are going for a half-orc build anyway Str is almost bound to be more important. Light sensitivity, I suppose, but being dazzled only gives a -1 penalty to attack rolls and you will have an extra +1 to attack rolls for going full orc. So, I mean, why go half?

[Andezzar]

Half-Orcs will be at a disadvantage in human societies, Orcs probably will not be allowed to be part of such a society at all.

[SowZ]

Half-Orcs will be at a disadvantage in human societies, Orcs probably will not be allowed to be part of such a society at all.

Ohhhhhh, okay, these are these reasons to choose a race that I've heard tell of called 'roleplaying reasons.'

[Thurbane]

Or he's an orc, and only actually paid for 14 of those points.
How did I know you were going to say that. :smalltongue:

[Runestar]

I don't see why people even go half-orc. I mean, you are trading a +2 Str for a -2 wisdom and if you are going for a half-orc build anyway Str is almost bound to be more important. Light sensitivity, I suppose, but being dazzled only gives a -1 penalty to attack rolls and you will have an extra +1 to attack rolls for going full orc. So, I mean, why go half?

Plus, if you work your way towards steadfast determination, that crap wis eventually becomes a moot point. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

I don't see why people even go half-orc. I mean, you are trading a +2 Str for a -2 wisdom and if you are going for a half-orc build anyway Str is almost bound to be more important. Light sensitivity, I suppose, but being dazzled only gives a -1 penalty to attack rolls and you will have an extra +1 to attack rolls for going full orc. So, I mean, why go half?
Many campaigns I've been involved in (by far the majority) restrict players to PHB races, and sometimes MM variants of those races (Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings but not Orcs).

Also, many DMs run games where a fullblood Orc will get run out of town by villagers with pitchforks and burning torches - the 1/2 Orc is generally (barely) tolerated by those same xenophobes...YMMV.

[Essence_of_War]

Yikes, Dragonkin with javelins to supplement their longspears + flyby attack seem like they could be outright terrifying for a low level party! :smallfrown:

[Runestar]

Well, if your DM allows races of stone, the goliath is a superior choice anyways.

That said, tacking dragonborn onto orc gets rid of the light blindness. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, this is contingent on DMs allowing that particular combination.