Is there any RAW way to make Warlock psionic?

[ThiagoMartell]

Pretty much what the tittle says. It would allow a theoretical build to use Tashalatora + Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike.

[Snowbluff]

IDK. How are you with Psi-Spell Transparency?

[ThiagoMartell]

IDK. How are you with Psi-Spell Transparency?

Well, default is to assume it.
Still don't see how I can make Warlock count as a psionic class for Tashalatora with it, though.

[Zsaber0]

There no feat or rule written anywhere that specifically makes a warlock psionic.

But it's not hopeless. The nature of the Warlock class is perfect for what you want. The first line of warlock class is "Born of a supernatural bloodline, a Warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul." All we need to do as players/GMs is change it just a bit, and then let the changes propagate throughout the whole class.

"Born of a powerful bloodline, a warlock seeks to master
the perilous psionics that suffuses his mind."

Now I'm sure someone here can write something better then what I just did, as I'm just awful at that kind of thing. But I'm serious just change all the magical things about the class and SAY it's psionic. Eldritch blast which deals untyped damage become, Psionic blast. Same rules, but now it's brainy!!!!

A lot of prestige and base classes have a little section on Adaptation which gives examples of ways to change classes to fit flavor or need. Just SAY it's psionic.

It is just a game after all.

[ThiagoMartell]

There no feat or rule written anywhere that specifically makes a warlock psionic.

But it's not hopeless. The nature of the Warlock class is perfect for what you want. The first line of warlock class is "Born of a supernatural bloodline, a Warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul." All we need to do as players/GMs is change it just a bit, and then let the changes propagate throughout the whole class.

"Born of a powerful bloodline, a warlock seeks to master
the perilous psionics that suffuses his mind."

Now I'm sure someone here can write something better then what I just did, as I'm just awful at that kind of thing. But I'm serious just change all the magical things about the class and SAY it's psionic. Eldritch blast which deals untyped damage become, Psionic blast. Same rules, but now it's brainy!!!!

A lot of prestige and base classes have a little section on Adaptation which gives examples of ways to change classes to fit flavor or need. Just SAY it's psionic.

It is just a game after all.
This is for a theoretical build, so it must stick to RAW.

[Prime32]

Just use enlightened fist to advance your eldritch blast + unarmed damage at the same time. Or better, jade phoenix mage, if you use unarmed swordsage.

[Snowbluff]

Just use enlightened fist to advance your eldritch blast + unarmed damage at the same time. Or better, jade phoenix mage, if you use unarmed swordsage.

JPM requires actual spells.

Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike can be used to cover lost Monk levels.

Did some digging and Magic-Psionic Transparency won't help. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Build Proposal using Enlightened Fist

Warlock3/Martial Monk2/Enlightened Fist10

Last 5 can be Warlock, or another suitable PrC.

Flaw1:Combat Casting
Flaw2:
1:
3: Eldritch Claw
Monk1: Beast Strike
Monk2: Stunning Fist
Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike
6: Superior Unarmed Strike
9: Snap Kick
12:
15: Rapid Strike (Select Eldritch Claws, but use an Aptitude Amulet of Natural Attacks for getting another attack)


Not quite done, but should suffice.

[ThiagoMartell]

Just use enlightened fist to advance your eldritch blast + unarmed damage at the same time. Or better, jade phoenix mage, if you use unarmed swordsage.

JPM requires actual spells.

Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike can be used to cover lost Monk levels.

Did some digging and Magic-Psionic Transparency won't help. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Build Proposal using Enlightened Fist

Warlock3/Martial Monk2/Enlightened Fist10

Thx for the suggestions, but they don't work for my goal. I wanted to get Warlock as a valid target for Tashalatora, so that the double dipping in Beast Strike would actually be worth it. Superior Unarmed Strike caps at 2d6, meaning Beast Strike only adds an extra +2d6.
If I could find a way to count Warlock as psionic, Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike + Tashalatora + Improved Natural Attack would be 15d6+8d8 before size changes. With Hellfire Warlock, damage goes up really fast, since base damage from eldritch blast jumps to 23d6 (funnily enough, by RAW you don't take Con damage if you use hellfire in eldritch claws).
Don't think it gets higher than King of Smack anyway, so it's probably not worth the trouble.

[Ernir]

You can squeeze all kinds of psionics into a build that also uses Warlock, but if there's a way to make Warlock count as a psionic class for the purposes of Tashalatora, I don't know of it.

[Snowbluff]

Thx for the suggestions, but they don't work for my goal. I wanted to get Warlock as a valid target for Tashalatora, so that the double dipping in Beast Strike would actually be worth it.

Kk, just thought I'd follow up on a viable alternative. Your welcome. :smallsmile:


Superior Unarmed Strike caps at 2d6, meaning Beast Strike only adds an extra +2d6.
If I could find a way to count Warlock as psionic, Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike + Tashalatora + Improved Natural Attack would be 15d6+8d8 before size changes. With Hellfire Warlock, damage goes up really fast, since base damage from eldritch blast jumps to 23d6 (funnily enough, by RAW you don't take Con damage if you use hellfire in eldritch claws).
Don't think it gets higher than King of Smack anyway, so it's probably not worth the trouble.

It actually would go higher than KoS, Since Eldritch Claw's Base is higher, size increases would do more. KoS uses illegal methods anyway. KoS is better with Beast Strike, regardless.

IIRC, Hellfire Blast != Eldritch Blast, so it shouldn't give extra d6 for Claws, but I'd allow it anyway.

SAS was for filling in Monk levels if you were getting them, not for use alone.

[Answerer]

Arcane Fist or whatever might help somewhat if you can finagle your way in.

When I attempted something along these lines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237268), I used a really unlikely reading of Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage (I was aiming to qualify for Diamond Nightmare Blade). Don't remember if the Monk/Arcane PrC requires 2nd or 3rd level spells, though.

[whibla]

The feat Wild Talent in the Expanded Psi says: "Your latent power of psionics flares to life, conferring upon you the designation of a psionic character..." You gain a couple of power points, the ability to take psionic feats etc. but no psionic powers as such. Would this suffice?

[Psyren]

Cerebremancer is psionic; if you cheat your way in (Using a Practiced Spellcaster dip, or Magical Training shenanigans etc.) you could advance Tashalatora and your EB at the same time.

[Answerer]

Cerebremancer is psionic; if you cheat your way in (Using a Practiced Spellcaster dip, or Magical Training shenanigans etc.) you could advance Tashalatora and your EB at the same time.
That's not an awful idea... it's a shame that neither Monastic Training nor Tashalatora have that Special entry that allows them to be taken more than once (as dumb as that is...).

[ThiagoMartell]

Cerebremancer is psionic; if you cheat your way in (Using a Practiced Spellcaster dip, or Magical Training shenanigans etc.) you could advance Tashalatora and your EB at the same time.

You know, I just noticed Warlocks qualify for Precocious Apprentice. They specifically have an arcane caster level. In fact, they seem to be the best class to take that feat, since they will never lose the benefits!

Unfortunatelly, Superior Unamed Strike is still better. Guess that shows how much the Monk's unarmed damage progression is slow. Even with Tashalatora Cerebremancer and a Monk's Belt, you cap at 2d6.

But I'm surprised no one noticed how well Precocious Apprentice works for warlocks before.

[Psyren]

You know, I just noticed Warlocks qualify for Precocious Apprentice. They specifically have an arcane caster level. In fact, they seem to be the best class to take that feat, since they will never lose the benefits!

They don't qualify, not on their own. Warlocks don't have "spellcasting ability." They also don't have access to a school of magic. And finally, even if they did - without a way to prepare the spell they get, they have no way to cast it, meaning they can't qualify for anything that requires them to be "able to cast 2nd-level spells," or similar wording.

[Answerer]

But I'm surprised no one noticed how well Precocious Apprentice works for warlocks before.
That was precisely the dubious interpretation that I used in the thread I linked, actually.

I call it dubious (and didn't post it then) because of the fact that Precocious Apprentice (in Complete Arcane) says "Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to." – kinda hard to say that Warlocks "have access" to any school of magic.

It's a shame, because the version in Wizards' preview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a) said "Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you," which the Warlock obviously can do.

The preview version also does not say "spellcasting ability" with respect to Psyren's objection. I'm guessing that might have been the version you were looking at? Of course, the online version says "Arcane spellcaster level 1st" as opposed to "Arcane caster level 1st" which I think probably amounts to the same thing (the fact that they changed it to explicitly say that it means both spellcasting ability and caster level 1st indicates that it is what they were going for – holy cow, did WotC notice an ambiguous rule and fix it before release?!)

[ThiagoMartell]

They don't qualify, not on their own. Warlocks don't have "spellcasting ability." They also don't have access to a school of magic. And finally, even if they did - without a way to prepare the spell they get, they have no way to cast it, meaning they can't qualify for anything that requires them to be "able to cast 2nd-level spells," or similar wording.

But the only requirement for Warlocks is "arcane caster level". Warlocks have that. They might not be able to use the feat (no spell list, for example) but they can take the feat.

[Psyren]

But the only requirement for Warlocks is "arcane caster level". Warlocks have that. They might not be able to use the feat (no spell list, for example) but they can take the feat.

Precocious Apprentice has two requirements: arcane caster level (which Warlocks have) and "spellcasting ability," which they do not.

(I think we're reading from different sources. I'm looking at the one in Complete Arcane, pg. 181.)

[Answerer]

Yeah, Thiago, I think I swordsaged you there.

Also, a lot of people argue that Precocious Apprentice alone won't qualify you as being able to cast 2nd-level spells, since it's only one spell slot and one spell known. This is kind of a lame interpretation, but many do require something like Focused Specialist to change that spell slot into something more flexible.

[Psyren]

The one slot = one spell thing I don't have a problem with from a qualification standpoint. If that were true, Sorcerers could never qualify for theurges since they only have one spell known also.

I'm only talking about the "spellcasting" part being a problem for Warlocks.

[Answerer]

Hmm... is there any RAW justification for Warlocks being able to use Craft (Alchemy)? Because it also requires being a "spellcaster" and might (if we could show that Warlocks can do it) provide a way around that issue.

[ThiagoMartell]

I googled the version I was using, so maybe it was an old version... Thx for the corrections, Answerer and Psyren.

[kardar233]

To be honest, the Unarmed damage from Beast Strike shouldn't matter for a Clawlock; you're only taking it for the Claw damage.

Try: Kobold Warlock6/Bard3/Hellfire Warlock3/Legacy Champion8

Feats: IUS, Eldritch Claws, DFI, Dragonwrought, Beast Strike, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike

Flaws could go towards Words of Creation, SUS, SotH etc.

[Answerer]

Beast Strike + Eldritch Claws means that your unarmed strike damage is doubled, and it's done in such a way that this should stack multiplicatively with any other multipliers (since it's really Unarmed Strike damage + Unarmed Strike damage + Eldritch Blast damage). Ignoring that would be foolish, I'd think.

[Snowbluff]

Beast Strike + Eldritch Claws means that your unarmed strike damage is doubled, and it's done in such a way that this should stack multiplicatively with any other multipliers (since it's really Unarmed Strike damage + Unarmed Strike damage + Eldritch Blast damage). Ignoring that would be foolish, I'd think.

Hot damn, I can't believe I forgot about that. That's why I wanted to make my own Eldritch Claw build in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[Crasical]

Precocious Apprentice has two requirements: arcane caster level (which Warlocks have) and "spellcasting ability," which they do not.

(I think we're reading from different sources. I'm looking at the one in Complete Arcane, pg. 181.)


Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster
level 1st.

The statistic that a Warlock uses to determine the DC of their Spell Like invocations is Charisma, as is normal for SLAs. I think only under a very strict interpretation of the rules does that not qualify.

[Psyren]

The statistic that a Warlock uses to determine the DC of their Spell Like invocations is Charisma, as is normal for SLAs. I think only under a very strict interpretation of the rules does that not qualify.

The ability isn't the problem - the problem is that SLAs/invocations aren't "spellcasting."

[kardar233]

Beast Strike + Eldritch Claws means that your unarmed strike damage is doubled, and it's done in such a way that this should stack multiplicatively with any other multipliers (since it's really Unarmed Strike damage + Unarmed Strike damage + Eldritch Blast damage). Ignoring that would be foolish, I'd think.

Most of the standard melee damage sources don't play well with UAS except for size increases, in which case you can just start with SUS's 2d6 base as you won't get much better without some serious investment.

[eggs]

Are there parameters anywhere for what counts as a "Psionic class"?

The Soulknife gets clumped under that label, and its only psionic aspect is its PP reserve. Should we infer that it's enough for the class to have features which grant a PP pool, even indirectly (as with Wild/Hidden Talent and the Soulknife)?

If so, would something like the Binder with a psionic vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) count?

That might allow for some weird indirect trickery. But that's an ugly way to approach it.

Another possibility is the Magic Mantle, which stipulates that "In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical." It's not clear what that means; it's definitely a stretch to say it's the one correct wayto implement the mantle, but I don't believe it would be demonstrably wrong to use it to treat Warlock's magical spell-like abilities identically to psionic psi-like abilities. And if the SLAs and PLAs are truly identical, they might qualify Warlock as a psionic class for your purposes are concerned. But that's a shaky argument that rests on poorly-defined rules and which probably includes a dip outside the classes the build demands.

[ThiagoMartell]

Are there parameters anywhere for what counts as a "Psionic class"?

The Soulknife gets clumped under that label, and its only psionic aspect is its PP reserve. Should we infer that it's enough for the class to have features which grant a PP pool, even indirectly (as with Wild/Hidden Talent and the Soulknife)?

If so, would something like the Binder with a psionic vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) count?

That might allow for some weird indirect trickery. But that's an ugly way to approach it.

Another possibility is the Magic Mantle, which stipulates that "In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical." It's not clear what that means; it's definitely a stretch to say it's the one correct wayto implement the mantle, but I don't believe it would be demonstrably wrong to use it to treat Warlock's magical spell-like abilities identically to psionic psi-like abilities. And if the SLAs and PLAs are truly identical, they might qualify Warlock as a psionic class for your purposes are concerned. But that's a shaky argument that rests on poorly-defined rules and which probably includes a dip outside the classes the build demands.

Hm, that looks interesting. Is there any way to get a mantle with a feat?

[Psyren]

Are there parameters anywhere for what counts as a "Psionic class"?

The Soulknife gets clumped under that label, and its only psionic aspect is its PP reserve. Should we infer that it's enough for the class to have features which grant a PP pool, even indirectly (as with Wild/Hidden Talent and the Soulknife)?

Basically - the books state they are. That's mostly it.

The classes in XPH/CPsi/MsE are called out as being "psionic classes." There's no definition anywhere (which is what leads to arguments about the Soulknife) but, while I've argued against it in the past, I'm now inclined to err on the side of it being a psionic class simply because it could use the help.

Besides, if we said that Soulknife wasn't psionic because its only source for being psionic was the Wild Talent at first level, Divine Minds would be in the odd/awkward position of starting out not being a psionic class then becoming one. That's not very intuitive, so it's best for us to just go with the text and say a psionic class is whatever WotC says one is.



If so, would something like the Binder with a psionic vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) count?

Interestingly, a Binder with a psionic vestige does in fact become a psionic character (i.e. they can take psionic feats, gain a focus etc.) But Binder is still not a "psionic class."

The psionic vestiges are pretty nifty though - the powers you gain are supernatural abilities like every other binder power. You have VERY little ammunition, but Anima Psion can beef this up considerably. Nothing like Energy Missiles that ignore SR and don't provoke.


{Magic Mantle shenanigans}

Yeah, the cheese potential of Magic Mantle is well known and documented :smalltongue: Hell, you could probably use your psionic side to qualify for Cerebremancer solo and not even bother with Precocious Apprentice with enough TO.

@Thiago: Only if you already have one, so no.