[PF] Rogue Build TWF

[wallofterror]

I am creating a new character level 5 for a campaign in Kingmaker. I was planning on making a rogue. Any ideas ?

I was thinking making him a TWF rogue. Should I take weapon finesse from the rogue talents ? Or save rogue talents for something else ?

Thanks for your ideas !

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Ah, rogues... I will obligatorily point you to various other options: Urban Ranger, Alchemist, Ninja, etc. I will also say that, if you want your focus to be a TWF blender of death, multiclassing can be your friend.

I love rogues, they just suck is all.

IF i were you, i would pick up Weapon Finesse at level 1... otherwise you'll be waiting until level 2 to pick it up via Rogue Talents.

Use the swashbuckler archetype, and you can get a Combat feat via Rogue talents (combat trick) twice. You will also want to grab weapon training to get weapon focus, if you will be TWF. this basically gives you a feat every two levels for the first 6 levels... same as a fighter, plus Sneak Attack, skills, etc.

3 levels of Fighter (weapon master) would be good for you, (for the Weapon Training) as would gloves of dueling to go with it. IIRC, this gives you a +4 to hit and damage. At that point, you might as well go in for 4 levels of fighter, for access to Weapon Specialization.
Throw a couple +1 agile weapons your way, and you'll be doing some decent damage even without Sneak Attack damage.

IF you want to TWF with daggers/knives, then taking the knifemaster rogue archetype may be an option if you don't want swashbuckler. Personally, I prefer Swashbuckler to a +1/2 levels of circumstantial damage. Sneak Attack is annoying enough to get off, its generally not a good idea to be even more dependent on it. The extra feat from Swashbuckler will probably be more useful to you.

[That_guy_there]

Damn...Duncan_Ruadrik has a good guideline there.

My opinion though, is Knifemaster is quite good as sneak Attacks can effect more things than in 3.5 and if you're playing a rogue positioning and tactics should be important to you in combat anyway. A pair of Kurkris with improved critical (or more likely keen), TWF and good position (flanking/ surprise) could quick work of things.

[roguemetal]

Dip in swashbuckler would be majorly beneficial, especially for TWF, even better, switch over to swashbuckler after 3 levels in rogue if you don't need to be skill monkey. I would definitely check out the Daring Outlaw feat (CS) which stacks some rogue and swashbuckler abilities, and basically permits full BAB -1 while getting full sneak attack.

[NamelessNPC]

Swashbuckler is a rogue archetype in PF, it's not a class on its own

[grarrrg]

For a TWF DEX Rogue build I strongly recommend going Halfling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling).

The penalty to STR is a non-issue (especially once you get Agile weapons). The bonus to DEX is very welcome.
The CHA bonus is more "meh", but it helps if you plan on being a Rogue with Social skills.

Halfing-Rogue Favored bonus is +1/2 to Critical Confirmation rolls. Sling, Dagger *coughKnifemastercough*, and 'Halfling' weapons only though. Maxes out at +4 (so 8 levels of Rogue), and does NOT stack with the Critical Focus feat (in other words, it saves you a feat).

You can also trade your Racial 'Keen Senses' bonus for a +1 on Critical Confirm rolls vs. opponents Larger than you.


But now, the most important reason to go Halfling.
The Halfling Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/halfling-opportunist) Prestige Class.
For the rock bottom price of just ONE junk Feat (your mileage may vary), you get virtually EVERYTHING a Rogue would have AND:
+2 to all saves (in addition to your Racial bonus, this comes to +3 ALL SAVES!)
And, EVERY time you make an Attack of Opportunity you AUTOMATICALLY deal Sneak Attack damage as well!!
There is some other abilities, but these are the two big draws of the class.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't be a rogue. Play a Vivvisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist. Use Feral Mutagen for natural attacks, and/or use manufactured weapons, your choice. If you wish to mix manufactured and natural, use vestigial arms to maximize your attacks.

Viv. gives you sneak attack. Beastmorph at 6 gives flight, at 10 gives pounce. Extracts provide useful things like Greater Invisibility.

Much better than an actual rogue.


If you're lured to rogue more for the skill moneying than the sneak attack, I suggest Bard. Either regular bard, Archaeologist (less skill monkeying, but gets a bunch of rogue class features), Chelish Deva, or Dawnflower Dervish.

In any case, do not play an actual rogue.

[Blisstake]

Halfing-Rogue Favored bonus is +1/2 to Critical Confirmation rolls. Sling, Dagger *coughKnifemastercough*, and 'Halfling' weapons only though. Maxes out at +4 (so 8 levels of Rogue), and does NOT stack with the Critical Focus feat (in other words, it saves you a feat).

Aren't crits extremely negligable for a low STR rogue? I'd take hit points over that any day.

***

Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of the TWF rogue. Yeah, it sounds good in theory (lots of sneak attacks with a FA), but in practice I always find it falls short. It has heavy feat investments, and you get penalties to your hits that do almost negligable damage unless you have sneak attack, which you can't always get. That's why I think strength rogues are the way to go. Play a half orc, pick up falchions (racial proficiency!), and take the Skulking Slayer and Scout archetypes. Charge in and go crazy.

Or if you want to do a TWF build, I prefer fighters, cavalier/paladins (only if you've got good stats), or even rangers. Alchemists are pretty good at those too, apparently, but I really despise the class, so I haven't tried them out.

[grarrrg]

Aren't crits extremely negligable for a low STR rogue? I'd take hit points over that any day.

If he's using Agile Weapons he gets DEX to damage anyway, so having a low STR is a non-issue.

And it's not that I think +Critical Confirm is 'awesome', it's just that its one of the better Rogue Alternate Favored abilities.
Dwarf/Gnome get decent bonuses...against VERY limited things (Stone Traps and Glyphs/wards/whatever respectively), and neither is really a "Rogue" race.
Half-Elves get bonuses to Gather Information (woo, yay, so utterly cool, I can't believe they would print that, etc..., and on Bluff Checks to Feint (potentially useful...but still fairly limited).
Humans get 1/6 of a Rogue Talent.
So it's not that the Halfling Rogue Favored is "good", it's just better than most of the alternatives.

And yes, HP 'might' be a better option, but that's also kind of the point. A Halfling can choose HP/Skill/+Crit, whereas a Half-Orc can only choose HP/Skill.


...Skulking Slayer...

Not familiar with that archetype, and my Google-Fu is failing me.
3rd Party?

[Blisstake]

Advanced Race Guide. Probably won't be on the PRD for another week or so. Also, in that book the half-orc favored class for rogues is +1/3 level to critical confirmation (max +5), so it's comparable to what halflings get.

And Agile weapons cost extra money and can't be relied upon depending on your GM. I find it silly that entire builds would be based around reliably having access to those weapons at all levels, but I suppose depending on some play styles that isn't an issue (which is fine, we don't all have to play the same :smallsmile:)

[grarrrg]

Advanced Race Guide.
Ah, thank you.


Also, in that book the half-orc favored class for rogues is +1/3 level to critical confirmation (max +5), so it's comparable to what halflings get.

And Agile weapons cost extra money and can't be relied upon depending on your GM. I find it silly that entire builds would be based around reliably having access to those weapons at all levels, but I suppose depending on some play styles that isn't an issue (which is fine, we don't all have to play the same :smallsmile:)

Tomato/tomato (I think that loses something in print...)