Worst build ever? Maxing diplomacy.

[LadyLexi]

In 10 levels, how high can you get diplomacy?

Given: 28 point buy. Multi-class penalties apply and should be avoided.

A few of my ideas:
skill knowledge allows for 2 skills to stay class skills across classes.
Warlock gives a +6 with a one level dip.
Binder allows for full action diplomacy without penalties.

The earlier we can reach the 40+ range the better, if it doesn't get that high then as high as it can get by lv 10.

Outside of diplomacy feel free to be as useless as you like.

[Tim Proctor]

Well we're going to start off with the Rogue variant from UA so we get the bonus feats instead of sneak attack.

Run 18 in Cha and 16 in Int (for the skills) with the buy and go with Doppleganger as the race for the +4 bonus on Diplomacy and +2 to Int and Cha. Don't forget the +1 for the Ability Score increase.

So you start off with 21 Cha and 18 Int with 7x6 skills to start so you got 42 to spend on the Doppelganger class skills 7 Bluff, 7 Diplomacy, 7 Disguise, 7 Intimidate, 4 Listen, 7 Sense Motive, and 3 Spot. You get 2 feats so I'd grab Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Negotiator. So right off that bat at equivalent of lvl 4 you have a Diplomacy of 7 (ranks) +4 (racial) +2 (synergy) +2 (synergy) +5 (ability) +3 (focus) +2 (negotiator) totaling +25 on diplomacy. If you DM allows Masterwork Tools I'd suggest "Book: A Diplomats Guide to Diplomacy" for the +2 to Diplomacy circumstance bonus on the skill, which will bring it up to +27 at level 4. You spend the rest of your money and Donkeys and tell your team it is so you can carry all of the loot they find. Don't buy weapons or armor.

You take your first level in Rogue with the Variant for Fighter Feats.
You get 12 skills so you Increase Bluff, Diplomacy to 8 and grab Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) 5, grab Perform (oratory) for 5 and retrain 3 from spot so that it is at 8. For the fighter feat you grab Combat Panache so that you can Sneer at them but most importantly when they attack you

Play Dead: "You crumple to the ground as if slain, luring your opponent into a false sense of security. As an immediate action after you are hit for at least 10 points of damage by a single attack, you can attempt to play dead. You drop prone and make a Bluff check opposed by your attacker's (or any other relevant observer's) Sense Motive check. If you succeed on this check, the observer assumes you are dead." Just leave it there, don't get up and help your party, just play dead.

But at level 5 you have the equivalent of a Diplomacy check of +30 (if you are allowed the Masterwork Tool), but your GM should allow it cause if you are playing this character you are a masterwork tool.

Level 6 you grab the PrC Fatemaker from Planar Handbook. The Take-Charge Appeal gives you +1 Cha so its now 22, YAY. You also get more skill-points so you get Diplomacy of 9, just keep your other skills up to so that you can bluff the team when they get mad at you. You get a feat at this level, so you grab Trustworthy for the +2 Diplomacy and +2 Gather Information. Now your Diplomacy should be up to +34, you got +1 from the ability increase, +1 from the skill rank and +2 from the Feat.

Level 7 you decide that PrCs aren't for you and go to Marshal, You get skill focus Diplomacy as a class skill so you retrain the one you have to get Alluring which gives you an additional +2 on Diplomacy. For your Minor Aura you grab Charisma to Charisma, you train up the Diplomacy skill again. Now your diplomacy should be at +43, you got +6 from doubling your cha bonus, +1 from the skill and +2 from the feat that was retrained.

Level 8 you decide that Marshal seems fun, so for your Major Aura you grab Motivate Urgency: so that your herd of Donkeys can move faster. Bump your Diplomacy up another so its at +44. Add your ability score increase to Cha. Just keep spending all your money on more Donkeys and feed.

Level 9 you grab a level in Sorcerer cause they go off of Cha right (your party will love this)? Retrain Alluring to grab Improved Familiar and grab a Donkey... this will allow you to talk to all of the Donkeys you got. Add the ranks to Diplomacy so that it is at +43 now.

Level 10 retrain Trustworthy for Leadership if your GM allows it, and for the Cohort get a Donkeys with 8 levels of Barbarian (Donkey's can't read anyways) and this will help your party out in Combat and hauling gear. Get leadership on your Donkey so that it cascades one more time. See if your GM will allow you to have all your followers be Donkeys also (he should allow you to have an army of Asses cause at this point you're being a giant one). Grab a level of Marshal so that you get another Minor Aura and you run with Motivate Dexterity so that your Donkeys have a super high amount of Initiative. Right now your Diplomacy will be at +42 but you have an army Donkeys. When you get initiative with your army you automatically full-retreat and save the group. Then you keep going, but remember don't buy any gear just Donkeys and feed. You should have earned around 49,000gp at this level so if a Donkey is 8 gp then you should have hired close to 5,000 of them and spent around 9,000gp on feed and Whores @ 1sp a day (you travel from town to town with a massive Donkey show).

At level 11 I'd go for Exemplar so that can take 10s on Diplomacy. I'd also retrain Negotiator and bring it into Improved Cohort so that you can Cascade your Donkey army even more.

If you GM allows this then by all means do it.

[ThiagoMartell]

Changeling Rogue 1 (ACF in Races of Eberron)/Warlock 1/Swashbuckler 4 (Seduction from the dead levels article)
Take the Silver Tongue feat from Dragon Magazine 318. Bind Naberius through feats.
-10 skill points ar first level
-shapeshifting
-Take 10 in social skills
-Use Diplomacy checks to actually cast spells
-Seduce people and learn secrets from them
-you're Mystique from the X-men

[LadyLexi]

Tim, you win at amusing me and getting me to face palm. That was pretty hilarious. Play dead, I had seen it before but passed it over. I now realize how amazing it can be.

I don't know anyone who has ever allowed a cohort to take leadership, I know I wouldn't. An army of donkeys seem pretty useless but also quite amusing.

Thiago, where is the seduction article? That actually sounds pretty cool.

[Tim Proctor]

Yeah, Leadership should just be banned, in which case you just have a higher diplomacy but maintain your uselessness (which was the goal right)?

Now if you don't want the army of Donkey's then you don't dip sorcerer and just use level 9 and 10 for Rogue w/ Fighter Variants. Then you don't need to retrain which will give you +47 Diplomacy. You will have some gold to spend and I'd have it on the following:

Choker of Eloquence (CAdv): +10 Diplomacy, Bluff, Perform (sing) for 24,000gp

Cloak of Charisma +4, +4 Charisma for 16,000gp

Pink and Green Ioun Stone, +2 Cha for 8,000gp

+1 Buckler of the Commander (MIC), +2 Diplomacy for 3,150gp

This will give you a functional +18 more on the Diplomacy making it 65.

[ThiagoMartell]

Thiago, where is the seduction article? That actually sounds pretty cool.
Here it is. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x)

[LadyLexi]

I don't think it should be banned, but it shouldn't be something a cohort can take. I have had leadership in two games, in one the cohort and followers didn't show up because I died shortly other. In another (had epic leadership for this one) they had a small city where my cohort ruled in my stead, and occasionally gave me Knowledge: Religion checks when I asked. Neither provided anything more than a bit of roleplaying oomph and a place to sleep.

Ty, Thiago.

[Jack_Simth]

Well we're going to start off with the Rogue variant from UA so we get the bonus feats instead of sneak attack.

Run 18 in Cha and 16 in Int (for the skills) with the buy and go with Doppleganger as the race for the +4 bonus on Diplomacy and +2 to Int and Cha. Don't forget the +1 for the Ability Score increase.Problem: Doppleganger is an 8th level character without any class levels (4 racial hit dice, +4 LA = level 8 character). The +4 racial is... not really worthwhile.

[Aemoh87]

FYI just google diplomancer...

Your builds are not even close and no this should never be played. But a good diplomancer can tell everyone who can think within 200 miles to bring their loot to him, put it in a pile, then kill themselves... At relatively low level.

[ThiagoMartell]

FYI just google diplomancer...

Your builds are not even close and no this should never be played. But a good diplomancer can tell everyone who can think within 200 miles to bring their loot to him, put it in a pile, then kill themselves... At relatively low level.

Considering the OP actually wants to play this and is using multiclass penalties, I don't see how that comment was helpful.

[Aemoh87]

It's helpful because using diplomacy is really really bad idea. Also the builds I see factor in multiclass penalties, which mean no dips into incarnum.

But since you are right and I wasn't very helpful let me make a new suggestion. I played a character like this years ago using the venerable barbarian feats from Dragon. So I built a venerable character who had a young barbarian from his tribe (via leadership) guarding him. It allowed me to have a diplomat who was still effective in combat. It had a ton of good fluff too. If you wanna slightly combat optimize this build I made my cohort a standard charger with some defender like abilities, and I made my main be able to stack fear effects with intimidate.

*I also loved it because since my character was a tribal elder it made roleplay really challenging, unlike if I had played a regular cookie cut snobby noble.

**Also from experience one session of you playing dead then saying you deserve a fair share of loot (most likely using your "skills" to get it), will not make for a very long campaign.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see.. how did it go?

Bard-1/Psion(Telepath)-1/Warlock-1
Race? Half-elf (+2 Racial diplomacy)
Psion bonus feat? Psicrystal Affinity(Friendly): +3
1st level feat? Negotiator: +2
3rd level feat? Skill Focus(Diplomacy): +3
Warlock Invocation? Beguiling Influence, +6
Max ranks in Diplomacy (+6)
5 ranks each in Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty): +2 Synergy each: +6
You're at +28, and we haven't gotten to Charisma or items. Oh yes, and we're still level 3.
Maximum base charisma, Venerable age (for +3 to Charisma), leaving you with Charisma-21, for a +5 more.
We're now at +33.
Go social rogue for the rest, so you can take ten on social skill checks. You've got seven more levels; that's +7 ranks, and two boosts in Charisma from level up. That puts us at +41, before items.
Masterwork Diplomacy Tool: +2 (running total: +43)
Cloak of Charisma +6: +3 (running total: +46)
Circlet of Persuasion: +3 Competence (Running Total: +49)
Rushed Diplomacy: -10 (Running total: +39)
Taking ten: Get a 10 (Running total: 49)

That'll turn Hostile to Friendly as a full-round action.

It's possible to cheese it up more if you like, but that'll be sufficient for most people, won't it?

[LadyLexi]

A lot of the diplomancer builds rely on the assumption that the game is beginning at high level and/or there is access to high end magic items.

lv 1 Factotum (for able learner)
lv 2 Warlock (+6 invocation)
lv 3 Marshal (+cha mod to cha checks)
lv 4 Factotum (possibly using the feat additional favored class)

Does that seem the right way to go for something like this?

[Aemoh87]

A lot of the diplomancer builds rely on the assumption that the game is beginning at high level and/or there is access to high end magic items.

lv 1 Factotum (for able learner)
lv 2 Warlock (+6 invocation)
lv 3 Marshal (+cha mod to cha checks)
lv 4 Factotum (possibly using the feat additional favored class)

Does that seem the right way to go for something like this?

Not true, the gold standard for diplomancing is you should be a god by level 6. If your not making fanatics by then your not going to get beaten by your DM, just laughed at. Jack's build is online by level 3, and his is really cheese light. Switch Bard for Marshall and it becomes even more effective, and has an open level 3 feat. But again I stress, diplomancer is a thought exercise and has no business at any table.

Also Factotum is not really a good diplomancer class, as rogue is just plain old better than it for social skills.

And why three levels marshall? I could see two, but really one is all you will ever need.

I like the Marshall 1, Warlock 1, Psion ?, then Prestige option the best though. Really simple. Adding a level 1 rogue is not a bad idea for UMD and the sweet skills points, most effective at level 1.

[Doug Lampert]

Not true, the gold standard for diplomancing is you should be a god by level 6. If your not making fanatics by then your not going to get beaten by your DM, just laughed at. Jack's build is online by level 3, and his is really cheese light.

He's sort of online at level 3, with 4 more points of bonus than he needs to reliably convert hostile to friendly (which is good enough, friendly as defined in the rules is good enough given that this is what we're getting from someone actively and personally dedicated to killing you when the skill is used during combat).

But he's hardly cheeze free.

He's got +3 from a 36,000 GP item. (At level 3)
He gets +3 more from another 4,500 GP item. (Presumably with his change from the cloak?)
He's got +3 to Cha from starting older than normal. (+2 would be just as good till he hits level 4.)
He's got a masterwork tool for +2.

He's not telepathic, so he's depending on knowing what language to use and knowing that language, not horrid odds (the first level is bard, he can have a lot of languages). But still, it's a mildly cheezy build and unlikely to actually come on line till level 4 or 5 even if someone tried to bring it into a game with a GM using diplomacy RAW.

[Aemoh87]

He's sort of online at level 3, with 4 more points of bonus than he needs to reliably convert hostile to friendly (which is good enough, friendly as defined in the rules is good enough given that this is what we're getting from someone actively and personally dedicated to killing you when the skill is used during combat).

But he's hardly cheeze free.

He's got +3 from a 36,000 GP item. (At level 3)
He gets +3 more from another 4,500 GP item. (Presumably with his change from the cloak?)
He's got +3 to Cha from starting older than normal. (+2 would be just as good till he hits level 4.)
He's got a masterwork tool for +2.

He's not telepathic, so he's depending on knowing what language to use and knowing that language, not horrid odds (the first level is bard, he can have a lot of languages). But still, it's a mildly cheezy build and unlikely to actually come on line till level 4 or 5 even if someone tried to bring it into a game with a GM using diplomacy RAW.

He is not completely online and yes the items are not close to wealth, but he has a high enough diplomacy to end most conflicts still. But most builds focus more on being able to diplomance fast, take 20, and make fanatics.

[Lateral]

He's sort of online at level 3, with 4 more points of bonus than he needs to reliably convert hostile to friendly (which is good enough, friendly as defined in the rules is good enough given that this is what we're getting from someone actively and personally dedicated to killing you when the skill is used during combat).

But he's hardly cheeze free.

He's got +3 from a 36,000 GP item. (At level 3)
He gets +3 more from another 4,500 GP item. (Presumably with his change from the cloak?)
He's got +3 to Cha from starting older than normal. (+2 would be just as good till he hits level 4.)
He's got a masterwork tool for +2.

He's not telepathic, so he's depending on knowing what language to use and knowing that language, not horrid odds (the first level is bard, he can have a lot of languages). But still, it's a mildly cheezy build and unlikely to actually come on line till level 4 or 5 even if someone tried to bring it into a game with a GM using diplomacy RAW.
Read it again. The items? He has them all after the Rogue levels. At level 3, his bonus is +28, enough to always change a Hostile target to at least Indifferent. For use in combat, he'd have to do Rushed, pushing it down to +18- respectable, but even Hostile ==> Unfriendly is DC 20.

[Tim Proctor]

Problem: Doppleganger is an 8th level character without any class levels (4 racial hit dice, +4 LA = level 8 character). The +4 racial is... not really worthwhile.

Yeah I wasn't paying attention to that, but even if you go with Half-Elf get the +2 racial to diplomacy and get extra levels into Rogue with Fighter Feats for Improved Initiative. You lose the natural +4 racial and +2 on Cha, which drops it from 65 to 59.

That means at lvl 10 you can roll a 1 and at 59 to it to get a 60 to influence NPCs, so even if they are Hostile and you are rushed they became Friendly. To go from Hostile to Friendly is 50 and at -10 for being rushed making it a DC 60 and you have an initiative of +9

The point is that you can at lvl 10 achieve the desired goal of making every NPC and the most powerful Monster friendly towards you. Does that mean that a Monster that you can communicate with stops attacking you and starts to Protect, back up, heal, aid. Just make sure you spend the 2 skill points to learn each language possible.

[Aemoh87]

The point is that you can at lvl 10 achieve the desired goal of making every NPC and the most powerful Monster friendly towards you.

WRONG, you want to make them fanatical too you. :)

So you can say give me your loot then go kill your friends for me, then kill yourself.

[VGLordR2]

Don't forget the Honest and Polite traits. An essentially free +2 never hurts.