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Jack of Spades
2012-07-01, 01:11 PM
So, I'm wondering if there are any good systems out there where any given combat will result in things like armor degradation, serious injury, or the like. I'm mostly doing this because it annoys me that in most RPGs there is little to no consequence for the first dozen or two hit points of damage that a character takes-- implying that the first few times someone hits you with a mace as hard as they possibly can you won't feel (or operate) any worse for it.

Now, I've been playing a lot of Deathwatch lately, and that system does an okay job with its crit tables, and is also satisfying in that the armor simply eats damage (with optional degradation rules when something hits through). However, it still annoys me that the crit tables don't take effect until a character hits negatives, as well as the fact that spending a fate point will just sew your character's arm back on (hyperbole).

So, anyone have anything? While having characters really feel the effects of their damage would be nice, I'm also looking for systems where other aspects of combat-- be it swordplay, armor, or even environmental effects-- are modeled extremely realistically.

Spiryt
2012-07-01, 01:18 PM
There is Riddle of Steel, which pretty much covers most of these as much as game can.

bigstipidfighte
2012-07-01, 01:36 PM
I'll second that, Riddle of Steel was what I thought of immediately upon seein this thread.

Rules for tareting specific locations are very good, weapons have realistic properties beyond damage values. Most importantly for what you're after, every hit deals both shock points, which reduce your dice pool(potentially eliminating it leaving you stunned) but go away after one round, and also wounds, which also reduce your dice pool but don't go away. Nasty hits potentially leave you bleeding out, taking more wounds each round until you die.

Arbane
2012-07-01, 01:51 PM
From what you say, I'm guessing you play mostly d20 games, where characters are big lumps of hitpoints. There are plenty of others.

Phoenix Command and Rune Quest both spring to mind as relatively 'realistic' (as in: If you get hit, YOU DIE).

GURPS and even Exalted don't have 'dozens of hitpoints'.

Not sure why you think this is a good idea. I play RPGs for entertainment, and spending an entire session bleeding out from a sucking chest wound sustained in round one due to a bad die-roll is not my idea of 'fun'.

Jack of Spades
2012-07-01, 02:08 PM
From what you say, I'm guessing you play mostly d20 games, where characters are big lumps of hitpoints. There are plenty of others.

Phoenix Command and Rune Quest both spring to mind as relatively 'realistic' (as in: If you get hit, YOU DIE).

GURPS and even Exalted don't have 'dozens of hitpoints'.

Not sure why you think this is a good idea. I play RPGs for entertainment, and spending an entire session bleeding out from a sucking chest wound sustained in round one due to a bad die-roll is not my idea of 'fun'.

The potential of bleeding out, while not necessarily fun, can create a tense situation as people run around trying to find a way to fix the wound that's causing the bleeding. In a broader sense, it makes for more cool flavor if your character has a peg leg "because of that one time we fought the giant lizard" rather than a series of mildly inconvenient (at most) wounds that are the result of being hit four times with a war-hammer and having a wolf rip a chunk out of your arm. I just don't like the way that wounds are constantly written off and always healed perfectly in games.

As for what games I've played: I've only ever played one d20 game-- I mostly play World of Darkness and Deathwatch, hours-wise. But you're right in that I generally think about RPGs in terms of DnD, mostly because it's easiest to do so in discussions on forums such as these.

Also: I'll have to take a look at Riddle of Steel.

bigstipidfighte
2012-07-01, 02:37 PM
I'm curious, what WoD games do you play? My experience is only with nWoD, but mortals are very squishy, with about 3 hits being the average for killing them, 2 if they're being hit with something powerful, like a rifle or werewolf's claws.

Supernatural things are tougher, but they tend to have weaknesses that, if exploited, make them almost as splattable as mortals.

Partysan
2012-07-01, 02:56 PM
Riddle of Steel is basically built for that. GURPS also has all the neccessary rules in its modular design, you just have to find and use them.

Sneaky Weasel
2012-07-01, 03:47 PM
GURPS is the best system for this, in my mind. It has extensive rules for getting injured, bleeding, damage to limbs, stunning, mortal wounds, targeting body parts, etc. In addition, it has more realistic rules for combat in general, such as parrying, numerous combat actions, excellent rules for rapid fire weapons, and more optional and incredibly detailed rules than you can shake a fist at. However, it is also one of the most complicated RPGs out there, and you might even find it too realistic. But once you get the hang of it, it can be excellent for the sort of thing you're describing.

Knaight
2012-07-01, 04:00 PM
Riddle of Steel is good, but good luck finding it for short of $100. Burning Wheel, by contrast is all of $25 new, and is endorsed by Riddle of Steel's creator as good. Injuries all cause serious impediment, the actual fighting is complex, and while it is fairly abstracted the abstraction is much more realistic than most.

Jack of Spades
2012-07-01, 04:53 PM
I'm curious, what WoD games do you play? My experience is only with nWoD, but mortals are very squishy, with about 3 hits being the average for killing them, 2 if they're being hit with something powerful, like a rifle or werewolf's claws.

Supernatural things are tougher, but they tend to have weaknesses that, if exploited, make them almost as splattable as mortals.

Our group's primary game is Werewolf, but we also played an adversarial mortals game (AKA hope you made that perception check in time to get away: the game) for kicks. In any event, my OP may have been misleading: I'm okay with having buckets of HP, I just hate that nothing happens in most systems when 0 < current HP < maximum HP.

Grail
2012-07-01, 07:59 PM
Further to the suggestions already put forth,

Rolemaster - injuries can be long and painful to recover from and can cripple
MERP (which is effectively Rolemaster Lite but build for Tolkien's world-kindof) - see above
True20 - every injury makes it harder to resist further injuries and can stun or stagger, making you even more vulnerable.

dps
2012-07-01, 09:25 PM
To be honest, I don't think anyone who doesn't have real world combat experience could give a knowledgeble answer to the question. But I'd guess that, by definition, fantasy and SF games don't have hyper-realistic combat, so you'd need to look for at combat systems used in non-fantasy, non-SF RPG settings.

Arbane
2012-07-01, 10:39 PM
In a broader sense, it makes for more cool flavor if your character has a peg leg "because of that one time we fought the giant lizard" rather than a series of mildly inconvenient (at most) wounds that are the result of being hit four times with a war-hammer and having a wolf rip a chunk out of your arm. I just don't like the way that wounds are constantly written off and always healed perfectly in games.

I shouldn't presume to speak for anyone else, but I don't want my character permanently crippled to the point of uselessness by a bad roll. Because MOST of my rolls are bad rolls. :smallannoyed:

Some to think of it, just how badly will a character have to be maimed before you'll allow them to retire? Lose one arm? Both? All motor function?

Grail
2012-07-01, 10:43 PM
When I was younger, MERP was the game system that we played most. I remember a game I was running over one summer holiday period where a character ended up losing his left eye, his left arm below the elbow and his left leg got injured over the course of a couple years of game time. He still played on and became a true heroic dwarf known as "Lefty".

He even came to hate Olog-Hai trolls the most, since it was they who took his eye and injured his arm on two separate occasions. And it really got played up well by the player.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-07-02, 02:13 AM
I shouldn't presume to speak for anyone else, but I don't want my character permanently crippled to the point of uselessness by a bad roll. Because MOST of my rolls are bad rolls. :smallannoyed:

Some to think of it, just how badly will a character have to be maimed before you'll allow them to retire? Lose one arm? Both? All motor function?

It's not for everyone, but the whole point of a certain genre of gaming is to watch your characters die in gruesome (and occasionally hilarious) ways. Not the kind of game where you want to bring 12 pages of backstory for each character, sure, but it can be fun.

Actually, this whole thread gives me a campaign idea: A silly, ultra-lethal game where the PCs are actually in control of immortal ghosts who possess NPCs and then force them to do crazy things, switching which character they control at will.

Totally Guy
2012-07-02, 02:34 AM
To be honest, I don't think anyone who doesn't have real world combat experience could give a knowledgeble answer to the question.

Jacob Norwood (of Riddle of Steel) is the president of a martial arts organisation.

I've not read his game but I think he'd be sufficiently knowledgable.

Khedrac
2012-07-02, 08:28 AM
RuneQuest (as in Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying System) is what I thought of.
It's the only system I know where a tough fight is likely to leave your armour in tatters. Combat is lethal even without critical hits or fumbles (both of which exist) and the rules both allow for a hand being cut off, and someone actually managing to remain consious enough to panic about their missing hand. The fatigue rules cover skill degredation due to tiredness in combat so that only really leaves environmental effects.
Mongoose's RQ may cover this but I don't know it.

Jay R
2012-07-02, 09:26 AM
I was cured of my desire for realistic combat by playing Chivalry and Sorcery, which was extremely detailed. It was the most realistic, detailed, carefully thought out, fascinating unplayable mess I ever played