True Dragon as PC?

[MrRigger]

Is there a good way to pull off being a True Dragon as a PC? I know there's the RAW version of doing so, but that's not really what I'm looking for. A wyrmling Gold Dragon is CR 5, but ECL 13, which is a fair sized difference. I know about ways to make dragon themed characters, or characters that look like dragons, but I'm looking for a way for True Dragons to be playable. Sure, there's the option of playing a Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept so you can breath fire while you breath fire, but I'm looking for other options. I'm open to homebrew if someone has worked something worthwhile up (I'm sure someone has, but my google fu has failed me).

So I come to you, the Playground, and ask, what do you have for me?

MrRigger

[Quirp]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724

Have you looked at the improved monster classes in the homebrew section?

[the_david]

You can find what you're looking for in Savage Species. You'd still have to deal with level adjustments, unless you're playing Pathfinder.

[ThiagoMartell]

Steel Dragon Wymrling.
4 HD, LA +2, Alternate Form as any Medium humanoid or animal.

[Tvtyrant]

advance by HD instead of levels and transform when you hit a new age category. Recolor one of the evil dragons as a good dragon, because the good dragons are considerably stronger.

Boom, simple solution. You are roughly as powerful as a ToB character.

[gorfnab]

Dragon Magazine #320 page 36 for metallic dragons
Dragon Magazine #332 page 26 for chromatic dragons

[That_guy_there]

there are some good ideas over here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233392

Lots of intertesting ideas and a few important warnings... though it is talking about a dragon PC focused game

[Flickerdart]

You could always ubermount it - while nominally, the character is a Wizard/Druid/Paladin/whatever, the mount is the more powerful of the two and the one you actually speak for and control.

[Lans]

Adult incarnum dragon, 20 hd and 0 level adjustment :smallsmile:


Balance wise its roughly soulborn that got pao into a dragon so its fairly reasonable

[Kuulvheysoon]

Adult incarnum dragon, 20 hd and 0 level adjustment :smallsmile:


Balance wise its roughly soulborn that got pao into a dragon so its fairly reasonable

...You're not being serious, are you? I honestly can't tell right now. LA: - is not the same thing as LA: +0. You can't play as an Adult Incarnum dragon. the oldest Incarnum dragon that one could play would be a Juvenile Incarnum dragon (13HD, +5 LA, ECL 18).

[JeminiZero]

Is Dragonwrought Kobold with dragon themed PC class levels a go? That would simplify things a lot.

Since homebrew is allowed, see if you can talk your DM into allowing Dragonwrought feat for races other than kobold, if you don't want to be stuck with small size.

Other than that, exactly what aspect of a true dragon do you want to have? Size and strength? Breath Weapon? Sorc spells? Spell resistance?

[Invader]

Steel Dragon Wymrling.
4 HD, LA +2, Alternate Form as any Medium humanoid or animal.

This seems like the best and least costly way so far. Has anyone come up with anything else? I'd like to play a TD in the campaign I'm in now and I'd be starting at 6th level anyway so that would be perfect except for the fact that I wouldn't want to play a steel dragon.

I'm sure my DM will give any dragon that was reasonable the ability to alter self into a humanoid as a free ability for RP reasons.

Also I haven't been able to find any good way to play a dragon older than a wyrmling without significant level penalties because lets be honest, no one wants to play a wyrmling lol.

And finally, if someone did play a TD and wanted to to only increase their dragon powers and abilities and not class levels, is there some conversion to increasing things slowly by level instead of by HD. Looking at a brass dragon as an example you could start out as a "very young" dragon with 4HD for 8th level but to advance to "young" age with 7HD it would jump you up to 12th and as a PC you'd be horrible underpowered playing a dragon with kind of penalty.

[deuxhero]

Steel Dragon (who are great gishes by the way) is the only pure 3.5 way (unless Cheese Kobolds are true dragons, not getting into THAT now)

[VGLordR2]

Dragon Magazine #320 page 36 for metallic dragons
Dragon Magazine #332 page 26 for chromatic dragons

How well do these work? I'm thinking of trying them.

[Invader]

How well do these work? I'm thinking of trying them.

Also can you link where you found them online because I was able to very readily. Thanks :smallbiggrin:

[VGLordR2]

{{Scrubbed}}

[MrRigger]

Is Dragonwrought Kobold with dragon themed PC class levels a go? That would simplify things a lot.

Since homebrew is allowed, see if you can talk your DM into allowing Dragonwrought feat for races other than kobold, if you don't want to be stuck with small size.

Other than that, exactly what aspect of a true dragon do you want to have? Size and strength? Breath Weapon? Sorc spells? Spell resistance?

I'm actually the DM in this case. A player expressed interest in playing a True Dragon, and I was interested in the options I had for allowing that. The homebrew monster classes look pretty interesting, and might be what I end up using.

No, Dragonwrought Kobold isn't really what they're looking for. I knew that one off the top of my head, but he's slaughtered too many kobolds over the years to have respect for them (yes, I've shown him Tucker's Kobolds, yes I've shown him Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers, he's stubborn).

As for what aspect? He's kind of looking for the whole package, but I think the size and strength plus the breath weapon are the big ones (plus flight, but there are always other ways to get flight). The ability to chew on those who offend him is a big draw, I think, and that's just not really there with the younger dragons.

Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them. Assuming this ends up going the direction I have a feeling it will go in, and all the players end up picking monstrous races (the Improved Monster Classes will be new when I show it to them, and new is interesting), any pitfalls I need to be on the lookout for when running a full monster group? Especially if it's a varied monster group (as in one Dragon, one Giant, one Vampire, etc.)?

MrRigger

[Jack_Simth]

This seems like the best and least costly way so far. Has anyone come up with anything else? I'd like to play a TD in the campaign I'm in now and I'd be starting at 6th level anyway so that would be perfect except for the fact that I wouldn't want to play a steel dragon.Wyrmling White is 3 RHD, +2 LA
Wyrmling Brass if 4 RHD, +2 LA


Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them. Assuming this ends up going the direction I have a feeling it will go in, and all the players end up picking monstrous races (the Improved Monster Classes will be new when I show it to them, and new is interesting), any pitfalls I need to be on the lookout for when running a full monster group?

MrRigger
If you're using LA exactly as RAW would dictate:
1) Most critters with the LA are weaker overall than the straight-classed character would be. LA doesn't give you HP, saves, BAB, skills, or anything else, so it's very, very weak if not mitigated in some manner (as with Gestalt).
2) The homebrewed Improved Monster Classes found on this forum run a very large gamut of power. Be careful, you may end up with one character that is significantly more powerful than the others (or significantly less powerful than the others) purely by accident.
3) Remember: You don't have to worry about them being overpowered if they all are. Balance is about in-party balance, not with the rest of the world. It doesn't matter if everyone is more powerful than a "standard" character, if everyone is; you can just throw higher CR stuff at them. If everyone is weaker than a "standard" character, you can just throw lower CR stuff at them. It's when there is a noticeable power discrepancy that there is a problem. Keep things roughly even between individual party members, and you're fine ... as long as you're not getting into the special abilities that make things pretty binary (such as a high-LA incorporeal like a ghost - if the creature can't deal with the party's special abilities, it's dead with little effect; if it can, then it kills them at little cost)

[JeminiZero]

Especially if it's a varied monster group (as in one Dragon, one Giant, one Vampire, etc.)?

Be aware that Standard Vampires have... lots of issues. Among other things, Vampire characters:
1) Cannot enter places that smell of garlic.
2) Cannot enter buildings unless somebody with the authority invites them in.
3) Cannot cross running water, unless carried across in their coffins.
4) Will die after 1 round in sunlight.

These issues become problematic in a mixed party (where some players are Vamps and others are not). If they party wants to act in unison, they are pretty much forced to only be active at night. Also, lets say you want the party to break into a building to steal something or other. The vampire cannot go inside, unless somebody with the authority invites him in (not likely for a covert operation). They also have problems walking over river bridges, despite being capable of flight.

Just something to be aware of.


The homebrew monster classes look pretty interesting, and might be what I end up using.

[shameless plug] If you're letting your players use homebrew, the base class in my sig might be of interest. It has some options for making semi-monstrous characters, including Angels, Demons, Plants and Lycans. :smallbiggrin: (There's also an option for Dragons, but that doesn't get much in the way of brute size and strength, unless you mix in refluffed Lycanthrope) [/shameless plug]

[ThiagoMartell]

You can get the alternate form class feature from a feat in Dragons of Eberron. The problem is that it requires level 5 sorcerer casting.

The good thing about steel dragons is that they start with sorcerer casting. I'm pretty sure you can manage to become a Medium or Large dragon through the use of alter self. If you can't, Use Magic Device (psi-magic transparency) and a dorje of expansion are your friend. There's even roleplay potential in it - you're a young dragon who just wants to be BIG.

[Invader]

But there's no way to modestly level up a dragons power as the other PC's level so he doesn't fall miserably far behind.

Unfortunately there's 0 RP in the session I'm playing in now which rules out half the reason I would want to play a dragon to begin with.

[Lord Tyger]

Be aware that Standard Vampires have... lots of issues. Among other things, Vampire characters:
1) Cannot enter places that smell of garlic.
2) Cannot enter buildings unless somebody with the authority invites them in.
3) Cannot cross running water, unless carried across in their coffins.
4) Will die after 1 round in sunlight.


The obvious solution here is to get the vampire chosen as the ruling nobleman, giving him authority across all his land, and allowing the discreet installation of tunnel systems and garlic tariffs.

[Invader]

I feel like vampires have veered us off topic about as far as possible.

[Dire Panda]

Remember: You don't have to worry about them being overpowered if they all are. Balance is about in-party balance, not with the rest of the world.

This. My last campaign went into the epics and we had some pretty optimized characters, so letting the new player try out an adult red dragon with no level adjustment was actually kind of underpowered*. Best advice I can give is to know your party and not give a damn about the published LA's - Wizards has said on at least one occasion that their goal with LA was to make monster PCs less attractive than the standard races.

* Until she learned Expansion and picked up the Snatch and Swallow feat. That plus Cleave and some swift-action teleportation meant that she was gulping down one NPC per round, every round. It got to the point where villains were spending stupid amounts of gold on Rings of Freedom of Movement for all their important henchmen... at least until she picked up Antimagic Field.

[Lans]

...You're not being serious, are you? I honestly can't tell right now. LA: - is not the same thing as LA: +0. You can't play as an Adult Incarnum dragon. the oldest Incarnum dragon that one could play would be a Juvenile Incarnum dragon (13HD, +5 LA, ECL 18).

Some what, it was a joke based around the sample incarnum dragon being listed as LA+0, and it actually being pretty fair as far as balance is concerned.

[demigodus]

A druid with dragon wild shape?

No, you aren't actually a dragon. However, at lvl 12 (when you get it), you get enough wild shapes per day to spend 60 hours in dragon form. So you can just be a dragon 24/7

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's an interesting link...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9064.0