[PFs] Serving the God of the End Times

[RndmNumGen]

For a while now I have wanted to make a Cleric of Groetus, God of the End Times. I want to be able to help heal my party in-combat if necessary, but for the most part want to debuff/enfeeble enemies. Out of Combat Healing can be done with a Wand of CLW.

In particular, there are two elements of the debuff/enfeeble aspect that have caught my eye; the first is the Madness domain ability, which is a nice no-save debuff, while the other is Madness variant negative channel, which Confuses enemies who fail their save.

I'm having trouble figuring out how exactly to build him though. So far I have the following, but I'm not incredibly happy with it:

Race: Human
Class: Cleric

Abilities(Point Buy 20):
14 Str
12 Dex
12 Con
7 Int
14 Wis
18 Cha(Racial)

Feats:
1) Versatile Channeling(Negative)
Human) Selective Channeling
3) Improved Channel
5) Extra Channel
7+) ?


14 Str gives me an okay Touch attack bonus, as well as the ability to use my Heavy Flail semi-competently. 14 Wis should tide me over on spellcasting until I can afford a +Wis/Cha item. The 18 Cha should give me plenty of Channels(7/day, 8 with a trait) and a good DC for my Channel Energy.

I think I may be trying to branch out to too many avenues at once though. Should I forget about channeling, and just focus on using Touch of Madness/Hitting Things With A Flail?

[grarrrg]

Race: Human
Class: Cleric

Abilities(Point Buy 20):
14 Str
12 Dex
12 Con
7 Int
14 Wis
18 Cha(Racial)

1) Versatile Channeling(Negative)
Human) Selective Channeling
3) Improved Channel
5) Extra Channel

14 Str gives me an okay Touch attack bonus, as well as the ability to use my Heavy Flail semi-competently.

...using Touch of Madness


Touch of Madness is not an official spell. Do you mean Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-idiocy)?


Hmmm... A Cleric with only 14 WIS just strikes me as wrong.
I'd strongly advise dropping CHA slightly and putting the bonus towards WIS.
Staying with 20 Point buy, you could do
Drop CHA to 15 base, bump WIS up to 15, and throw the leftover point into CON.
Or just make WIS 16 and CHA 14 base.
I think either would serve you better in the long run.

Alternately, give the Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) feat a look. It lets you use WIS when making attacks with your Heavy Flail. This would allow you to drop STR some to free up points elsewhere.

[RndmNumGen]

Touch of Madness is not an official spell. Do you mean Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-idiocy)?


Hmmm... A Cleric with only 14 WIS just strikes me as wrong.
I'd strongly advise dropping CHA slightly and putting the bonus towards WIS.
Staying with 20 Point buy, you could do
Drop CHA to 15 base, bump WIS up to 15, and throw the leftover point into CON.
Or just make WIS 16 and CHA 14 base.
I think either would serve you better in the long run.

Alternately, give the Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) feat a look. It lets you use WIS when making attacks with your Heavy Flail. This would allow you to drop STR some to free up points elsewhere.
Sorry, Vision of Madness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/madness-domain)(which is still a Touch attack).

I sort of agree about the low WIS, but I want as many channels as possible, with a high DC to be able to confuse enemies reliably. CHA is only 18 after adding in the +2 racial bonus.

[Alleran]

This is largely a side question, but isn't it Rovagug who's the God of the End Times in Pathfinder? A deity so anti-existence that Asmodeus thought he was too evil, banding together with all the good deities (and neutral ones as well) to lock him away?

[GreenZ]

This is largely a side question, but isn't it Rovagug who's the God of the End Times in Pathfinder? A deity so anti-existence that Asmodeus thought he was too evil, banding together with all the good deities (and neutral ones as well) to lock him away?

Yes and no. Rovagug is a terrible monster whose only desire is to destroy all of creation, including deities, and was stopped in part by the numerous deities banding together. Groetus, on the other hand, is said to wait for after the world begins to die in order to destroy whatever is left of it; less of an evil force ending the world and more of an insane janitor worshiped by madmen.



As per the build, I'd argue to shy away from strength and combat and focus almost solely on debuffing; 10, 12, 12, 7, 16, 18 seems more like a debuff caster Cleric in my opinion. You definitely need the Cha if you're going to do the negative energy thing (since you CAN'T harm allies unless they give permission.) Yet, on the other hand, in PFS there are often times when knowing a little bit of melee can come in handy when you are designated by the party of wizards to become the tank... so your choice really.

Protean is a great second domain for this concept, Touch of Chaos can be a cruel debuff to bosses, mindless enemies, or those with good will saves and the combined debuff power of Aura of Chaos and Aura of Madness along with whatever else you can throw at 8th level is just sick and wrong.

You might also want to think about switching you positive and negative energy around, generally healing in-combat is at an on-need basis at best and a wand of CLW works plenty well out of combat and right now you loose 1 DC for the madness effect and half of 1d6 damage. Not a must, but I think if you're going to focus on channeling negative you might want to think about it.

Other than that, running around and annoying the part with angst about the end of the world seems like fun; I might have to steal borrow the idea sometime.

[RndmNumGen]

Groetus, on the other hand, is [...] less of an evil force ending the world and more of an insane janitor worshiped by madmen.

Ha! I like that one! I'll have to keep that in mind.



As per the build, I'd argue to shy away from strength and combat and focus almost solely on debuffing; 10, 12, 12, 7, 16, 18 seems more like a debuff caster Cleric in my opinion. You definitely need the Cha if you're going to do the negative energy thing (since you CAN'T harm allies unless they give permission.) Yet, on the other hand, in PFS there are often times when knowing a little bit of melee can come in handy when you are designated by the party of wizards to become the tank... so your choice really.

I also partially wanted the Strength so I could more reliably hit with my Touch attacks, though I suppose I could maybe shift the 12 from Dex to Str, though that would lower my AC... tricky...




Protean is a great second domain for this concept, Touch of Chaos can be a cruel debuff to bosses, mindless enemies, or those with good will saves and the combined debuff power of Aura of Chaos and Aura of Madness along with whatever else you can throw at 8th level is just sick and wrong.

You might also want to think about switching you positive and negative energy around, generally healing in-combat is at an on-need basis at best and a wand of CLW works plenty well out of combat and right now you loose 1 DC for the madness effect and half of 1d6 damage. Not a must, but I think if you're going to focus on channeling negative you might want to think about it.

Other than that, running around and annoying the part with angst about the end of the world seems like fun; I might have to steal borrow the idea sometime.

Some good ideas here. I was thinking about Darkness for the second domain, but Protean sounds really nice as well. I'll consider switching positive/negative around; either way could work, but it comes down to +1 DC & +1d3 damage v.s. + 1d6 Healing. I don't care about the damage so much, but that extra DC is nice...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Apparently Groetus is supposed to be one of the best deities for optimized clerics. This guide here has a few Groetus-related builds you might find useful, as well as other valuable advice:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en&pli=1#

[Dr. Yes]

I also partially wanted the Strength so I could more reliably hit with my Touch attacks, though I suppose I could maybe shift the 12 from Dex to Str, though that would lower my AC... tricky...

Weapon Finesse; dump Strength. Have your cake and hit with it too.

[RndmNumGen]

Weapon Finesse; dump Strength. Have your cake and hit with it too.

With only 12 Dexterity? I don't think it's worth it... MAYBE if I had 14, but I think feats will be at a premium with this build(and all the delicious channel enhancers).

[Dr. Yes]

With only 12 Dexterity? I don't think it's worth it... MAYBE if I had 14, but I think feats will be at a premium with this build(and all the delicious channel enhancers).

That's more what I was getting at: take Weapon Finesse and put the 14 in dex instead of strength, thus boosting your AC without sacrificing the ability to hit. Totally valid point about being feat-hungry though.

[Crasical]

Side-question to the side question. How do you play a character with a nihilist ideology like a Rovagug or Groetus cultist? I've been wanting to play an Asura-spawned Tiefling who's really bought into their ideology and having trouble fleshing out his philosophy to something plausible-sounding, and figuring out how to play a character who's religion preaches the destruction the planes without having every missed shot be 'a blow against creation (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0210.html)'.

Adventuring sort of works for an Asura-spawn, since they're noted as working as mercenaries, not particularly caring for the -why- of the fighting so much as getting to wreak destruction, which plenty of adventurers do, so that's not so much an issue, but the other bits I'm struggling with. Any opinions?

[GreenZ]

Side-question to the side question. How do you play a character with a nihilist ideology like a Rovagug or Groetus cultist? I've been wanting to play an Asura-spawned Tiefling who's really bought into their ideology and having trouble fleshing out his philosophy to something plausible-sounding, and figuring out how to play a character who's religion preaches the destruction the planes without having every missed shot be 'a blow against creation (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0210.html)'.

Adventuring sort of works for an Asura-spawn, since they're noted as working as mercenaries, not particularly caring for the -why- of the fighting so much as getting to wreak destruction, which plenty of adventurers do, so that's not so much an issue, but the other bits I'm struggling with. Any opinions?

I've spoilered a reply to keep the thread mostly on-topic.

It's all about belief or lack thereof, 'cult-esque' though processes often play out from base misconceptions spreading to numerous 'rationalizations' based on this basic collection of lies. Think of such a belief or group of such beliefs that your character believes (Likely beginning with 'X god will do what he says he will') and then base 'rational' choices from here.

The simplest way, in my opinion, is to have them believe everything will be destroyed anyways and that what time they have now is all the time they will ever have. Whether they use this time for selfish purposes, adventuring, or spreading their religion this ideology can fit pretty easily.

Or you could have your character spiraling out of control if you're up for some more intensive roleplaying; like a drunk loosing control of everything around them the character can loose control of themselves to the fear and realization of the supposed end and doing everything they can to try and subvert or embrace such a fate.

I had a character that worshiped Rovagug, an Infiltrator Inquisitor pretending to be a worshiper of Sarenrae who believed that he needed to convert people to know 'the truth' in order to embrace the end and that worshipers of Sarenrae were the most delusional and lost of them all. More religious than necessary but fun as hell to subtly badmouth Sarenrae as I lightly spoke about her downfall to Rovagug at the end of days.

If logic-holes are ever brought up make broad rationalizations such as 'you just simply can't understand' or and use copious amounts of backwards logic in order to convincingly make no sense whatsoever yet still remain perfectly logical in character. Rarely, when you feel like it, they might even make 'realizations' in character that defy what they know and cause inner-turmoil, slowly being enveloped deeper in madness or possibly becoming eventually cleansed of such madness.