[3.5] Lawful Bard?

[INoKnowNames]

Pretty much the title. I have a character who is Neutral Good, if only because, being part Bard, he can't be Lawful. But after having played him several times and figured out his personality, I'm almost willing to beg to tear him apart and rebuild him, to make the vision I have for him a reality.

At the very least, I want a way to make him Lawful, but Bards lose all their abilities for going Lawful, which stinks... Alternative Class Features or Variant Versions of Classes might be capable of being implimented in game, though.

Any variants to make a Bard Lawful? Or possibly future levels that can be taken to enable keeping your Bardic abilities while gaining access to the Lawful side of the allignment pool? Preferably without having to burn a feat, and even more preferably if it's just a Bard Variant that can easily be converted, rather than whole new classes.

[GreenSerpent]

Ask your DM if he can be allowed to be Lawful? Like a bard who respects the law and abides by it... like he's a member of an organised and regulated Musician's Guild!

[Metahuman1]

Or spent a chunk of his life as a "House Bard." to wealthy Local Nobles who, as it happens, expected him to abide by and not abuse the local laws.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's a feat that lets you do this, but I can't remember the name. Probably a Dragon Magazine feat, though.

[Piggy Knowles]

The Ordered Chaos feat from Fiendish Codex could conceivably work, but you'd need a base will save of +4 to take it. Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer explicitly lets you retain bardic abilities when lawful, but you would need to pick up Smite Evil from somewhere to qualify.

[Metahuman1]

Come to think of it, wasn't there a feat in Complete Adventure that let Monk's and/or Paladins Multyclass with Bard and ignore the alignment restrictions?

Edit: Factotumed!

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Ordered Chaos feat from Fiendish Codex could conceivably work, but you'd need a base will save of +4 to take it. Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer explicitly lets you retain bardic abilities when lawful, but you would need to pick up Smite Evil from somewhere to qualify.

Thanks, this was the one that I was thinking of.

[Psyren]

I would just ask your DM. Pathfinder Bards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) can be lawful, and they play just fine.

[HunterOfJello]

An ACF to have a lawful bard should be available imo. That type of character would likely be very rare, but I think people like Thom Merillin (during his younger years) might fit into that category.

[deuxhero]

Doesn't the bard/Paladin multiclass feat let you be a lawful bard?

[Psyren]

Doesn't the bard/Paladin multiclass feat let you be a lawful bard?

Yes; it was mentioned above. But you need smite evil for it.

[Answerer]

The alignment restriction is dumb and inane, and doesn't even make sense in the pretend shadow-world of WotC's imagination where any of the alignment rules make sense.

[Azernak0]

No. You cannot ask your DM if you can change your Bard's alignment to Lawful. You just cannot. I mean, what's next? We will have Nazis riding dinosaurs again! Anyone get the reference? :smallwink:

Honestly, I see no reason why a Bard couldn't be a Lawful dude. I always thought of someone like Squeeler from Animal Farm as a Lawful Evil Bard. Meant to corral the people into a sense of submission with showmanship, good tunes, and generous usage of the Glibness spell.

[Wyntonian]

I'd just like to jump on the "Ignore that stupid-ass restriction before mindless allegiance to it and its ilk destroys every fragment of your sanity like playing Scrabble with Cthulu" bandwagon. Carry on.

[newBlazingAngel]

Cthulu" bandwagon.


*Adds to list of band names*

I do agree though. Rules are meant to be broken, and D&D openly states that your allowed to twist them for the benefit of the game.

[Larkas]

At the very least, I want a way to make him Lawful, but Bards lose all their abilities for going Lawful, which stinks... Alternative Class Features or Variant Versions of Classes might be capable of being implimented in game, though.

I don't know where you got that from, but bards that become lawful don't lose any class abilities, they just can't advance in the class anymore.


Ex-Bards
A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.

[INoKnowNames]

Ask your DM if he can be allowed to be Lawful? Like a bard who respects the law and abides by it... like he's a member of an organised and regulated Musician's Guild!


Or spent a chunk of his life as a "House Bard." to wealthy Local Nobles who, as it happens, expected him to abide by and not abuse the local laws.


I would just ask your DM. Pathfinder Bards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) can be lawful, and they play just fine.


An ACF to have a lawful bard should be available imo. That type of character would likely be very rare, but I think people like Thom Merillin (during his younger years) might fit into that category.


The alignment restriction is dumb and inane, and doesn't even make sense in the pretend shadow-world of WotC's imagination where any of the alignment rules make sense.


No. You cannot ask your DM if you can change your Bard's alignment to Lawful. You just cannot. I mean, what's next? We will have Nazis riding dinosaurs again! Anyone get the reference? :smallwink:

Honestly, I see no reason why a Bard couldn't be a Lawful dude. I always thought of someone like Squeeler from Animal Farm as a Lawful Evil Bard. Meant to corral the people into a sense of submission with showmanship, good tunes, and generous usage of the Glibness spell.


I'd just like to jump on the "Ignore that stupid-ass restriction before mindless allegiance to it and its ilk destroys every fragment of your sanity like playing Scrabble with Cthulu" bandwagon. Carry on.


*Adds to list of band names*

I do agree though. Rules are meant to be broken, and D&D openly states that your allowed to twist them for the benefit of the game.

I went ahead and asked, but there are other players with characters that have been built that work with the allignment restriction. Seems a bit unfair if I just ask to be able to ignore it, to be honest.


I don't know where you got that from, but bards that become lawful don't lose any class abilities, they just can't advance in the class anymore.

Hm.... if I wasn't enjoying the benefits of Bardic Skill Points and Bard Spell Casting, and wasn't anticipating with joy what I'm going to be able to do with my Inspire Courage, then this might be my answer... I wonder what my build options are right now... It'd be so easy if I hadn't anchored it to Crusader...


The Ordered Chaos feat from Fiendish Codex could conceivably work, but you'd need a base will save of +4 to take it. Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer explicitly lets you retain bardic abilities when lawful, but you would need to pick up Smite Evil from somewhere to qualify.


There's a feat that lets you do this, but I can't remember the name. Probably a Dragon Magazine feat, though.


Come to think of it, wasn't there a feat in Complete Adventure that let Monk's and/or Paladins Multyclass with Bard and ignore the alignment restrictions?
Edit: Factotumed!


Thanks, this was the one that I was thinking of.


Doesn't the bard/Paladin multiclass feat let you be a lawful bard?

I don't feel like going outright Paladin, if only because there's already a Paladin in the party, and my character does have tendencies for other allignments. Although I might... Bard / Paladin // Crusader ...

I'll check out both feats and see if they can gel well, or if I can find room for them. Looking at the sheet, the entire character could use a nice new coat of paint and some plumbing replaced... I love his roleplay, but there are things I want to do with him mechanically that I can't... at least not until a while, and only if I start work on him now...


Yes; it was mentioned above. But you need smite evil for it.

Think that a Crusader's Smite could count for Smite Evil?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Think that a Crusader's Smite could count for Smite Evil?

I highly doubt it. It calls for Smite Evil in particular, not 'a Smite ability'. RAW, no. RAI... it might, considering that the Crusader is pretty much the Paladin v2.

Asking your DM is probably your best bet.

[Piggy Knowles]

Devoted Performer doesn't require any actual paladin levels, just Smite Evil.

I don't have ToB in front of me, so I'm not sure offhand if the crusader's smite would count (as it isn't explicitly Smite Evil, I'm guessing the answer is no), but I would certainly allow it if I were DM. I know that there are some prestige classes that grant smiting, though - Pious Templar, Shadow Striker, and the Initiate of Pistis Sophia (thanks Iron Chef :P) all come to mind, but I'd be willing to bet there are a lot more. I believe there's a vestige that grants smiting as well, although I can't remember the name offhand.

[Dr.Epic]

If paladins can be chaotic, I don't see why you couldn't get away with a lawful bard.

[IdleMuse]

Think that a Crusader's Smite could count for Smite Evil?

RAW, no, but ask your GM. If not, then http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7a452da09ee185915c3e949cf08df4 59&topic=2546.0 has lists of ways of getting smite evil (or other similar effects). For instance, even in Tome of Battle, obviously an allowed source for you, there's the Avenging Strike feat which is Smite Evil in all but name.

[INoKnowNames]

Just checked the Fiendish Codex' feat. Ordered Chaos sounds cool... at the same time, what's all that about Abyssal Herriors?

[roguemetal]

Although you can no longer take levels of bard once you become lawful, none of the PrCs for bard require non-lawful and many continue adding to the bard's pre-existing abilities.

[demigodus]

No. You cannot ask your DM if you can change your Bard's alignment to Lawful. You just cannot. I mean, what's next? We will have Nazis riding dinosaurs again!

Lawful Bards leading to an rp with Nazis riding dinosaurs sounds like a very good reason to make all bards required to be lawful.

[INoKnowNames]

In any case, so long as his roleplaying is believable, my Bard is apparently allowed to be Lawful. Which is awesome.

I wonder if I should retool this thread, then, since there are other things about the Bard I'm no longer satisfied with... although since this thread has been answered, maybe closing it and opening another would be better...

[Bard for Kicks]

I'm not sure if this can suffice but Divine Bard from Unearthed Arcana might be allowed to be lawful, though I don't have the book in front of me...(oh, nevermind, you're allowed to be lawful..well..this is awk)

[IdleMuse]

there are other things about the Bard I'm no longer satisfied with

For retooling a Bard while still being a bard in name, you can't get much better than http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7a452da09ee185915c3e949cf08df4 59&topic=7908.0

[Pilo]

Well it seems clear to me that if you take a PrC, you don't care anymore about the alignment restriction.