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ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 08:33 PM
Endless are the discussions among the Wise on why, and how, a fighter has been rendered a useless class to play. This is not a thread about this subject. I want to propose a reworking of the fighter, based on specific presuppositions which I take for granted. I will explain which are these presuppositions and I will try to justify why I believe the changes I propose address them directly and indirectly. If you disagree, fine, my point is not to convince you, just to state my opinion. If you agree, then I would be very interested to hear your opinion on what I did with the class.

To my mind, the fighter in PF should try to model the great fighters of myth and literature. From Beowulf and Hercules to Conan and the Hulk, these mythic figures could jump over mountains, wrestle dragons from the sky and climb sheer cliffs that led to the palace of the gods. The PF fighter does not, I believe, make room for such kind of heroics. I would like the fighter to be able to eventually to perform feats of extraordinary prowess which border on the supernatural, without actually being magical. He should, as he levels up, be able to go from capable swordsman, to 'This is Sparta!', to besting demigods in wrestling matches.

I take as axiomatic more or less, that the goal of the game is to have fun, by playing with other people and contributing to the party. The fighter can be a very fun to be play. As a class, it does well what it was intended to does well, which is hurting enemies and withstanding their punishment. It appears however, that if a fighter wants to do things outside combat, or things inside combat other than hurting the aforementioned enemies, he faces an uphill battle (combat maneuvers excluded). This makes the fighter less versatile within a party than he could be. And it certainly breaks with many of the archetypes that it strives to emulate. On the other hand, it is important that each class retains a niche on which it thrives. The fighter should leave room for other melee combatants within the party.

The fighter also seems strangely prone to specific attacks. While in previous DnD systems he was a juggernaut (all good saves, for example) in 3.5/PF he seems much more fragile to specific attacks. This detracts from his usefulness and has no real justification in myth and tradition.

Finally, in the magically conductive environment of 3.5/PF, magic equals versatility (among other things). Paladins, rangers and magi become more useful in a greater variety of circumstances, mainly because they have access to magic. Barbarians also have abilities which make them more agile in different circumstances. Fighters, for some unexplained reason, lack these resources. But there is nothing that prohibits them from having some kind of extraordinary abilities, derived from their sheer stamina and heroic spirit. Once in a while, they could and should be able to jump 30 feet in the air through sheer strength, climb towers by plunging daggers in the walls or break through magical shields by the strength of their arm. These, after all, were the accomplishments which made them special in the stories that inspired us to play them.

To address these issues, I propose the following changes


INITIAL VERSION
BAB, Weapon and armor proficiencies, HD, Saves : Unchanged.

Skills: 4 per level. Skill selection unchanged, however see Initial training below.
(I don't think that takes away from the skill monkeys. Also, other fighting classes seem to be doing fine with 4 skillpoints per level. I don't see why fighters can't have broader horizons)

1st) Bonus feat, Initial training, Skill and hard work
2nd) Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude, Grind the teeth
3rd) Armor training
4th) Bonus feat
5th) Weapon training, Heroics
6th) Bonus feat
7th) Armor training
8th) Bonus feat
9th) Weapon training, Heroics
10th)Bonus feat
11th)Armor training
12th)Bonus feat
13th)Weapon training, Heroics
14th)Bonus feat
15th)Armor training
16th)Bonus feat
17th)Weapon training, Heroics
18th)Bonus feat
19th)Armor mastery
20th)Bonus feat, Weapon mastery, Got you now, Heroics

Initial training (Ex): The fighter selects one of the skillsets below. These skills become class skills. He treats the associate ability score for these skills as 12, if it it isn't 12 or higher already. This becomes 14 at 6th level, 16 at 10th level and 18 at 15th level. If the skill is one that he already has in his skill list, he gains a +1 competence bonus to it instead, plus +1 in each level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20).

Guard: Knowledge(Local), Perception,Intimidation
Inspector: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive
Wilderness warrior: Knowledge (Nature), Survival,Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Mounted warrior: Ride, Handle animal, Knowledge (Nature)
Knight: Knowledge (Nobility), Diplomacy, Knowledge (Engineering)
Thug: Stealth, Climb, Acrobatics
Temple protector: Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft
Collegiate guard: Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes)
Mercenary: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Nobility
Caravan guard: Handle Animal, Perception, Appraise
Sailor: Climb, Acrobatics, Swim

(This is intended to make the fighter more versatile in out of combat situations. He or she will never be as good as a bard in Diplomacy, for example, but he or she will be able to make a secondary face without having MAD)

Skill and hard work (Ex): The fighter can ignore the ability requirements when he selects a feat as his fighter bonus feats, if the ability in question is 10 or more.

(While I liked the idea behind the ability requirements for feats, I find that in the end they just seem to penalize the fighter by making an one trick pony. This, I believe, will enable him to do more things better, such as battlefield control, by taking multiple feat chains).

Weapon aptitude (Ex): As a full round action that does not provoke an AoO, the fighter can change the weapon specified in his feats (weapon focus, improved critical, etc).
(The fighter is the weapon master after all.)

Grind the teeth (Ex): A number of times equal to the fighter's Con mod + 1 per 3 levels (3rd,6th,9th,12th etc), the fighter can substitute his Will or Ref save with a Fort save. This must be decided before the roll is made.
(This is a step back to AD&D. It reflects the fact that fighters are tough. They persevere through grit and they have the scars to prove it. Note that the paladin still remains the save juggernaut, but the fighter is a close second.)

Weapon training: Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Weapon groups are defined as follows:

Axes: bardiche, battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, hooked axe, knuckle axe, light pick, mattock, orc double axe, pata, and throwing axe.

Blades, Heavy: Aldori dueling sword, bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, flambard, greatsword, great terbutje , katana, khopesh, klar, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword.

Blades, Light: bayonet, butterfly knife, butterfly sword, chakram, dagger, gladius, hunga munga, kama, katar, kerambit, kukri, madu, pata, quadrens, rapier, sawtooth sabre, scizore, shortsword, sica, sickle, starknife, swordbreaker dagger, sword cane, wakizashi, and war razor.

Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.

Close: bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, katar, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, rope gauntlet, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.

Crossbows: double crossbow, hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, launching crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, light repeating crossbow, and tube arrow shooter.

Double: chain spear, dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword.

Firearms: all one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms.

Flails: battle poi, bladed scarf, chain spear, dire flail, double chained kama, flail, flying blade, heavy flail, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, meteor hammer, morningstar, nine-section whip, nunchaku, sansetsukon, scorpion whip, spiked chain, urumi, and whip.

Hammers: aklys, battle aspergillum, club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, mere club, taiaha, tetsubo, wahaika, and warhammer.

Monk: bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungshuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, temple sword, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart.

Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.

Polearms: bardiche, bec de corbin, bill, glaive, glaive-guisarme, guisarme, halberd, hooked lance, lucerne hammer, mancatcher, monk's spade, naginata, nodachi, ranseur, rhomphaia, tepoztopilli, and tiger fork.

Spears: amentum, boar spear, chain spear, javelin, harpoon, lance, longspear, pilum, shortspear, sibat, spear, tiger fork, and trident.

Thrown: aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, hunga munga, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, Shoanti bolas, shortspear, shuriken, sling, sling glove, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart.

Siege Engines: all siege engines.

Heroics (Ex): The fighter learns to perform extraordinary acts of heroism. He learns one at 5th level and one more at levels 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th. Every time he is eligible to learn a new heroic, he can also replace the ones he already knows with others from the list.

Decoy: Once per day per 5 fighter levels (5th, 10th etc), a fighter provokes a foe to attack him to exclusion of all others, as a standard action. He does so by appearing to leave guards unguarded, being staggered and so on. The target of the attack must make a Will save against 10+ fighter level or engage the fighter at the best of his ability (ranged attacks, spells, melee etc).

Burst of speed: Once per day per 4 levels as a standard action, the fighter can increase his speed by 20ft for a number of minutes equal to half his level.

Put your back into it: As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Con modifier plus 1/4 levels, the fighter can add half his level to a Str, Dex or Con based skill.

Just a flesh wound: Once per day, the fighter can take a minute to assess the damage done to him and convert a number of hit points equal to his Constitution modifier*level to nonlethal damage.

Break through: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can ignore spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural defenses and effects that grant protection when engaged in combat with an opponent. The first successful attack acts as a targeted dispel, which does not actually dispel the active effects but instead allows the fighter to ignore it for the remainder of the encounter. The CL is the fighter's level.

Ignore impediment: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can as a standard action, ignore any and all impediments to his movement, as per the freedom of movement spell, for a duration of 1 minutes per level.

Combat mobility: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as an immediate action, take an additional move action as part of his turn.

Overextending: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, extend his reach 5 feet for the duration of an encounter.

Surprise Shift: Once per day per 4 fighter levels, the fighter can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Solo Tactics: The fighter’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the fighter for the purpose of determining whether the fighter receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the fighter to receive the listed bonus.

(the following are adapted from the soulknife)

Combat Slide: Upon successfully striking an enemy in melee, the soulknife may immediately make a 5-foot step (even if she's already moved in the round, but not if she's taken a 5-foot step). In addition, when someone misses the fighter with a melee attack, she may spend an immediate action to take a 5-foot step.

Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

Caught unaware: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature's ability is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.


(These are the extraordinary abilities I was talking about. They are weaker than spells, but useful nevertheless.)

Armor mastery: The DR given by the ability is DR/10.

Got you now (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can use his chosen weapon to make a touch attack (ranged or melee) as a standard attack. If it hits, it is a considered a confirmed critical. The ability is not expended if the attack misses.

FINAL VERSION
BAB, Weapon and armor proficiencies, HD, Saves : Unchanged (but see Grind the teeth below).

Skills: 4 per level. Skill selection unchanged: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str) (plus see Initial training below).


1st) Bonus feat, Initial training, Skill and hard work
2nd) Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude, Grind the teeth
3rd) Armor training
4th) Bonus feat
5th) Weapon training, Heroics
6th) Bonus feat, Feat mastery
7th) Armor training
8th) Bonus feat
9th) Weapon training, Heroics
10th)Bonus feat
11th)Armor training
12th)Bonus feat
13th)Weapon training, Heroics
14th)Bonus feat
15th)Armor training
16th)Bonus feat
17th)Weapon training, Heroics
18th)Bonus feat
19th)Armor mastery
20th)Bonus feat, Weapon mastery, Got you now, Heroics

Initial training (Ex): The fighter selects one of the skillsets below. These skills become class skills. He treats the associate ability score for these skills as 12, if it it isn't 12 or higher already. This becomes 14 at 6th level, 16 at 10th level and 18 at 15th level. If the skill is one that he already has in his skill list, he gains a +1 competence bonus to it, plus +1 in each level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20).

Guard: Knowledge(Local), Perception,Intimidation
Inspector: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive
Wilderness warrior: Knowledge (Nature), Survival,Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Mounted warrior: Ride, Handle animal, Knowledge (Nature)
Knight: Knowledge (Nobility), Diplomacy, Knowledge (Engineering)
Thug: Stealth, Climb, Acrobatics
Temple protector: Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft
Collegiate guard: Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes)
Mercenary: Diplomacy, Sense motive, Nobility
Caravan guard: Handle Animal, Perception, Appraise
Sailor : Climb, Geography, Swim, Acrobatics
Scout: Stealth, Perception, Survival

Skill and hard work (Ex): The fighter can ignore the ability requirements when he selects a feat as his fighter bonus feats, if the ability in question is 10 or more.

(Note that the feat in question must be taken with fighter bonus feats. No one class dipping).

Weapon aptitude (Ex): As a full round action that does not provoke an AoO, the fighter can change the weapon specified in his feats (weapon focus, improved critical, etc).

Grind the teeth (Ex): A number of times equal to the fighter's Con mod + 1 per 3 levels (3rd,6th,9th,12th etc), the fighter can substitute his Will or Ref save with a Fort save. This must be decided before the roll is made.

Armor training: Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

Heroics (Ex): The fighter learns to perform extraordinary acts of heroism. He learns one at 5th level and one more at levels 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th. Every time he is eligible to learn a new heroic, he can also replace the ones he already knows with others from the list.

Harassment: A fighter targets a single foe which he is capable of attacking,with a standard attack. The target of the harasment takes a -2 modifier to all his attacks that do not target the the fighter, as long as the fighter spends at least an action attacking him. The penalty becomes -3 if the fighter is 10th level, -4 if 15th etc. If the fighter wants to change the target of his harassment, he must take a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity to reposition himself.

Burst of speed: A fighter can increase his speed by 20ft for a number of minutes equal to half his level each day. These must be spent in 1 minute increments.

Put your back into it: As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Con modifier plus 1/4 levels, the fighter can add half his level to a Str, Dex or Con based skill checks.

Just a flesh wound: Once per day, the fighter can take a swift action to assess the damage done to him and convert a number of hit points equal to his Constitution modifier*level to nonlethal damage.

Break through: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can ignore spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural defenses and effects that grant protection when engaged in combat with an opponent. This applies only to spells and spellike abilities that grant AC, partial cover and displacement bonuses, not to invisibility or mirror image spells. The fighter declares his intention against a specific target as a swift action.The first successful attack acts as a targeted dispel, which does not actually dispel the active effects but instead allows the fighter to ignore it for the remainder of the encounter. The CL is the fighter's level.

Ignore impediment: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, ignore any and all impediments to his movement, as per the freedom of movement spell, for 1 minute.

Combat mobility: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as an immediate action, take an additional move action as part of his turn. This action can only be used for movement.

Overextending: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, extend his reach 5 feet for the duration of an encounter.

Surprise Shift: A number of times equal to his Constitution modifier the fighter can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Team leader: The fighter’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the fighter, as long as fighter takes a swift action each turn to coordinate them. Her allies do receive the bonuses from these feats regardless if they actually possess the feats themselves, but only as regarding the fighter. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the listed effects to take place.

(The above means that the paladin makes a shield wall with the fighter, but not with the barbarian, even if the barbarian does have the team feat in question).

Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

False security: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). The target is not paralyzed and is able to defend himself normally. A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.

Feat mastery (Ex): If the fighter has a combat feat that has an improved or greater version, he automatically gets the improved and greater versions in the levels he would be eligible for them. He must still meet the requirements for the improved and greater versions of the feat (but see Skill and hard work). In order for the ability to function, the character must have fighter levels equal to the BAB required by the greater or improved version.

Armor mastery: The DR given by the ability is DR/10.

Got you now (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can use his chosen weapon to make a touch attack (ranged or melee) as a standard attack. If it hits, it is a considered a confirmed critical. The ability is not expended if the attack misses.

So what do you think? Is that a more versatile fighter? I eagerly await your thoughts!

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 08:43 PM
PF? its perfect as is....
create a variant class called Hero...

ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 08:49 PM
See, I don't think it's perfect. I believe that it is unnecessarily handicapped in very specific ways, such as versatility.

For that reason, I don't want to create another class. The above are in addition to normal abilities per level.

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 08:53 PM
See, I don't think it's perfect. I believe that it is unnecessarily handicapped in very specific ways, such as versatility.

For that reason, I don't want to create another class. The above are in addition to normal abilities per level.

I mean create a templated variant for the fighter, called Hero or Hero of Lore, etc.

Versatility? i cant think of a more versatile class than fighter? a dip into the class can create a unique blend to any class combo and going straight into fighter is no longer stupid, like in 3.5 version of D&D (3.5 made me cry some nights), with several variants that make for unique builds.

have you looked at Tower Shield Specialist or Dragoon, unarmed fighter, or two weapon warrior, etc.? they are all great!

ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 09:02 PM
Ah, I see what you mean now.

Yes, I have looked at them. And it seems I need to be more clear. In many ways, the fighter is indeed very versatile. In others.... not so. As I said above, he is versatile in being able to do potentially many things, but once he chooses, he usually becomes an one trick pony. And it is difficult to make him do more things outside battle as well as in it, because of his few skill points and restrictive skill list. And even if that are addressed, his stats are usually geared away from the skills that could be useful.

Also, he lacks the versatility that magic usually gives. Mobility, for example. I wanted to give him a small boost in that direction.

Anyway, it is all up there. As I said in the beginning, this is not a thread to convince anyone that the fighter needs a boost. If you do not agree, that is fine. If you do, here is my take on it.

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 09:09 PM
Ah, I see what you mean now.

Yes, I have looked at them. And it seems I need to be more clear. In many ways, the fighter is indeed very versatile. In others.... not so. As I said above, he is versatile in being able to do potentially many things, but once he chooses, he usually becomes an one trick pony. And it is difficult to make him do more things outside battle as well as in it, because of his few skill points and restrictive skill list. And even if that are addressed, his stats are usually geared away from the skills that could be useful.

Also, he lacks the versatility that magic usually gives. Mobility, for example. I wanted to give him a small boost in that direction.

Anyway, it is all up there. As I said in the beginning, this is not a thread to convince anyone that the fighter needs a boost. If you do not agree, that is fine. If you do, here is my take on it.

I always allow people to pick and choose among the abilities of up to two variants, as long as each ability chosen doesnt interfere with the same "Slot"

that way the barbarian class can use titan mauler for lifting heavier weapons with invulnerable rager for better DR.

ever thought to run in Gestalt pf games? its insane...

ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 09:14 PM
Well, Gestalting can get insane very easily very quickly. I once made a cleric/fighter that forced my DM (a wonderful and just fellow I might add) to ask me to make another character.

Picking upon different archetypes I like to do myself. But that is a different sort of fix that what I propose. Archetypes, I believe, mostly make fighter better in what he is already quite good. I am aiming at a different problem.

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 09:22 PM
Well, Gestalting can get insane very easily very quickly. I once made a cleric/fighter that forced my DM (a wonderful and just fellow I might add) to ask me to make another character.

Picking upon different archetypes I like myself. But that is a different sort of fix that what I propose. Archetypes, I believe, mostly make fighter better in what he is already quite good. I am aiming at a different problem.

i see the problem you aim at, i approve, i was just gauging your reasons...

ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 09:27 PM
So, any input then?

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 09:35 PM
So, any input then?

I say the two greatest problems is:

One: leadership functions (the cavalier believe has a rally feature or something that does something similar... but a companion warrior would rock.

Two: skills are extremely lacking... Tactics is non-lacking as is Skill in other things standard. i think you made a good attempt with the varying initial training. I would instead create one for each standard Variant of fighter and a few listed here.

I can help a little if you would like.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 09:42 PM
To be honest, both the Initial training and the Heroics lists I thought as just springboards. I would be glad for others to step in and add stuff.

I also agree that indeed a leadership possible path is missing from the fighter. However, I was loathe to add it in the format above, because it requires (again I agree) an archetype, not a reworking of the original class. Perhaps it could be done with heroics. Or some special fighter only feats.

But I must say that I still believe that more archetypes is not the answer. I would prefer a more flexible initial class chassis than a plethora of archetypes.

Any help and any suggestions are welcome, though!

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 09:48 PM
To be honest, both the Initial training and the Heroics lists I thought as just springboards. I would be glad for others to step in and add stuff.

I also agree that indeed a leadership possible path is missing from the fighter. However, I was loathe to add it in the format above, because it requires (again I agree) an archetype, not a reworking of the original class. Perhaps it could be done with heroics. Or some special fighter only feats.

But I must say that I still believe that more archetypes is not the answer. I would prefer a more flexible initial class chassis than a plethora of archetypes.

Any help and any suggestions are welcome, though!

I would add one ability from another class or newly created to add to the list of stuff the fighter gets.
like a single ability from another class at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.

Call the ability: We Will Adapt (To Survive).

IE:
Rogue's Evasion at 6th, Ranger's Favored Enemy at 12th, Barbarian's Rage at 18th.

we now have a evasive, infuriated and out for blood fighter... now add a variant at go.

IE: Druid's Animal Companion at 6th, a Gunslinger's Grit ability at 12th, and a monk's fast movement at 18th.

Fast gunslinging warrior with a pet in tow.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-01, 10:01 PM
But isn't that overkill? I mean, I don't want the fighter to step on other classes' toes. If he takes the barbarian's rage, then what does the barbarian have?

Neither do I feel it is right that the class becomes semi-magical. After all, the Tome of Battle exists for that sort of thing. I was aiming at, let's say, enriching the fighter by giving him options were he lacks them: In skills, saves, mobility and capstone abilities, for example.

LordErebus12
2012-07-01, 10:12 PM
But isn't that overkill? I mean, I don't want the fighter to step on other classes' toes. If he takes the barbarian's rage, then what does the barbarian has?

Neither do I feel it is right that the class becomes semi-magical. After all, the Tome of Battle exists for that sort of thing. I was aiming at, let's say, enriching the fighter by giving him options were he lacks them: In skills, saves, mobility and capstone abilities, for example.

ah. i was just throwing the idea at you. i agree.

Kane0
2012-07-01, 11:10 PM
Nice, clean fighter fix that doesn't do anything overly flashy without changing his focus too much. I approve :smallsmile:

nonsi
2012-07-02, 12:26 AM
Initial training
Give more of these with level progression, say at levels 6, 12 & 18.

Skill and hard work
The general idea is fine, but totally ignoring ability requirements is too much.
Give a solid alleviation that scales with level progression.

Grind the teeth
Call it "Grit" or "Grin & Bare It" (or something) and drop the self inflicted wounds bit. You don't dodge the bullet by hurting yourself.

Provocation
A man at arms does this via duping movements, not lingual skills.

Break through
What's the equivalent CL ?

Ignore impediment
Heroics represent rising above yourself at the need of the moment. Duration of 5 minutes per level is too long for reflecting that and isn't really needed.

Dart around the battlefield
At last something that gives some battlefield mobility and action improvement.
Just not enough #uses.
Also, this needs to be a hardwired feature, not an optional one.
At high levels, an immobile warrior is dead weight.
And make it immediate or swift action, otherwise Forcecage is still an auto-deactivation switch for poor ole' Fighter.

Got you know
I believe you meant: "Got you now"



I still don't see anything that deals with battlefield control (check out my Warrior's "Warrior Talent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13182574&postcount=1)").

Seerow
2012-07-02, 12:30 AM
Random suggestion: If you think the PF fighter is perfect, it's just that it slots the Fighter into a narrow niche, why not take the wizard route of fixing it?

That is to say, a wizard learns all spells, and can swap between them daily. Let the Fighter spend some paltry amount of money/time picking up new archtypes, and he can choose which one he wants to use for the day. Allow similar swapping out for feats, and maybe even skill points, and you make the fighter much more versatile without having to worry about the weird synergies created by gestalt.


Personally I doubt this would solve many problems, but it might be a step in the right direction.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-02, 07:04 AM
Initial training
Give more of these with level progression, say at levels 6, 12 & 18.

Skill and hard work
The general idea is fine, but totally ignoring ability requirements is too much.
Give a solid alleviation that scales with level progression.

Grind the teeth
Call it "Grit" or "Grin & Bare It" (or something) and drop the self inflicted wounds bit. You don't dodge the bullet by hurting yourself.

Provocation
A man at arms does this via duping movements, not lingual skills.

Break through
What's the equivalent CL ?

Ignore impediment
Heroics represent rising above yourself at the need of the moment. Duration of 5 minutes per level is too long for reflecting that and isn't really needed.

Dart around the battlefield
At last something that gives some battlefield mobility and action improvement.
Just not enough #uses.
Also, this needs to be a hardwired feature, not an optional one.
At high levels, an immobile warrior is dead weight.
And make it immediate or swift action, otherwise Forcecage is still an auto-deactivation switch for poor ole' Fighter.

Got you know
I believe you meant: "Got you now"



I still don't see anything that deals with battlefield control (check out my Warrior's "Warrior Talent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13182574&postcount=1)").


These are good suggestions. I am embarrassed about the 'know' typo...

On 'Skill and hard work', I was considering adding the level of the fighter in the relevant ability. However, in the first level that most feat chains start these does alleviates the problem only partially (needs a 12 instead of a 13). Why is it overpowered as is, you think?

On 'Provocation', making it about controlling movement would mean that the mechanics should be changed completely. How could that work? Perhaps someone hit would then have to attack the fighter to the exclusion of all others, but this is the case any way in most fights. Or the save can be Reflex? But I don't see it actually happening with say an archer at the other side of the room. I am open to suggestions!

'Break through': I added that the CL is the fighter level.

Finally, on your battlefield control question, I think that a fighter controls the battlefield by mobility and Combat maneuvers. With the above, he can dash across the battlefield, jump over the mooks and engage the spellcaster behind them. Or trip them as the pass by. But I am always open to suggestions about other heroics that could be added to the list.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-02, 07:34 AM
Nice, clean fighter fix that doesn't do anything overly flashy without changing his focus too much. I approve :smallsmile:

Thanks Kane0! :smallsmile:

nonsi
2012-07-02, 08:10 AM
On 'Skill and hard work', I was considering adding the level of the fighter in the relevant ability. However, in the first level that most feat chains start these does alleviates the problem only partially (needs a 12 instead of a 13). Why is it overpowered as is, you think?

Something doesn't feel right if a goofy fighter with Dex 6 takes Manyshots (you wrote: "can ignore the ability requirements") and goes Legolas all of a sudden.




On 'Provocation', making it about controlling movement would mean that the mechanics should be changed completely. How could that work?

The idea is that you move in a manner that makes your opponent sure that you're staggered or something - in general, a real easy target (a sort of once in a lifetime bargain - a decoy that's hard to ignore).




Finally, on your battlefield control question, I think that a fighter controls the battlefield by mobility and Combat maneuvers.

I regard battlefield control as
- having a significant edge in Bull Rush/Disarm/Trip/Sunder
- having superior hit&damage in AoOs
- increased reach
- enemies taking penalties when attacking someone else or moving, just by being threatened by you
- having alleviated "Ready"/"Delay" penalties and restrictions


And again, regarding "Dart around the battlefield".
Make it a hardwired feature (and for heaven's sake, give it a better name - something like "Combat Mobility").
Also, make it possible for a fighter with this feature to spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for the ability to make an off-turn move action - this is crucial for dodging nasty spells that don't allow saves (such as Forcecage).

ProudGrognard
2012-07-02, 12:41 PM
Something doesn't feel right if a goofy fighter with Dex 6 takes Manyshots (you wrote: "can ignore the ability requirements") and goes Legolas all of a sudden.



The idea is that you move in a manner that makes your opponent sure that you're staggered or something - in general, a real easy target (a sort of once in a lifetime bargain - a decoy that's hard to ignore).



I regard battlefield control as
- having a significant edge in Bull Rush/Disarm/Trip/Sunder
- having superior hit&damage in AoOs
- increased reach
- enemies taking penalties when attacking someone else or moving, just by being threatened by you
- having alleviated "Ready"/"Delay" penalties and restrictions


And again, regarding "Dart around the battlefield".
Make it a hardwired feature (and for heaven's sake, give it a better name - something like "Combat Mobility").
Also, make it possible for a fighter with this feature to spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for the ability to make an off-turn move action - this is crucial for dodging nasty spells that don't allow saves (such as Forcecage).

Again, good points.

Regarding the abilities requirements, I think I will add that it will work only of the ability in question is 10 or more already. Because, I have a premonition that some cheese is lying around that.

I will also change Provocation to Decoy and rework the mechanics. Excellent idea.

And finally, I see your point about the newly named Combat Mobility, I will work on it. Though I still don't think it should be hardwired, as you say. Actions are valuable currency.

I agree with what you say constitutes Battlefield Control. However, many of these stuff I believe should be covered by feats, even fighter only feats. But again, one of the points of this fix what to allow for multiple feat chains. So, what would you think about an ability that allowed the automatic upgrade of feats? I mean from Weapon Focus to Greater WF, from Improved Trip to Greater Trip and so on? Around say 9th level?

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 09:52 AM
A feeble attempt at bumping. Any other thoughts? Especially in the automatic upgrade of feats proposal?

nonsi
2012-07-03, 11:02 AM
A feeble attempt at bumping. Any other thoughts? Especially in the automatic upgrade of feats proposal?

- Feat chains are not of identical lengths.
- Feats within feat chains are not of equal potency.
- Feats within different feat chains have different minimum level and different requirements.

For all the above reasons, you're never gonna find a formula that will reconcile feat chains the way you envision.

As for Combat Mobility...
The very fact that actions are valuable currency only emphasizes the need to make it hardwired.
The way you Fighter's features are spread out at current, Id do it as follows:

First of all, since this has nothing to do with heroics, but a genuine need of the ace of melee, "Once per day per..." has got to go.

Next, I'd spread the abilities as follows

Level 7: Instant Reaction (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to move a distance no greater than his speed (a move action that may only be used for movement) or take a 5ft-step. He may also spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a 5-ft step.

Level 11: Combat Mobility (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to make a full attack as a standard action. He may also spend a swift action to move up to his speed while making a full attack, spreading his attacks against any opponent he chooses to target within reach.

Level 15: Tide of battle (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action and a move action to take a standard action. He may also spend an immediate action for taking a 5-ft step, or spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a move action (which is not limited only for movement).


Without these features, no matter how many innovative ideas you put into your Fighter fix - it'll always be crippled compared to the other factors on the battlefield.
Just try to imagine the different kinds of opponent's a fighter at those levels is supposed to be able to cope with and the different character's he'll be campaigning with (THIS (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/325822-3-5-seen-tank-like-before.html) for instance, which is perfectly legit, given ToB is official WotC material).

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 11:31 AM
- Feat chains are not of identical lengths.
- Feats within feat chains are not of equal potency.
- Feats within different feat chains have different minimum level and different requirements.

For all the above reasons, you're never gonna find a formula that will reconcile feat chains the way you envision.

As for Combat Mobility...
The very fact that actions are valuable currency only emphasizes the need to make it hardwired.
The way you Fighter's features are spread out at current, Id do it as follows:

First of all, since this has nothing to do with heroics, but a genuine need of the ace of melee, "Once per day per..." has got to go.

Next, I'd spread the abilities as follows

Level 7: Instant Reaction (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to move a distance no greater than his speed (a move action that may only be used for movement) or take a 5ft-step. He may also spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a 5-ft step.

Level 11: Combat Mobility (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to make a full attack as a standard action. He may also spend a swift action to move up to his speed while making a full attack, spreading his attacks against any opponent he chooses to target within reach.

Level 15: Tide of battle (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action and a move action to take a standard action. He may also spend an immediate action for taking a 5-ft step, or spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a move action (which is not limited only for movement).


Without these features, no matter how many innovative ideas you put into your Fighter fix - it'll always be crippled compared to the other factors on the battlefield.
Just try to imagine the different kinds of opponent's a fighter at those levels is supposed to be able to cope with and the different character's he'll be campaigning with (THIS (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/325822-3-5-seen-tank-like-before.html) for instance, which is perfectly legit, given ToB is official WotC material).


Once again, valuable feedback. Thanks Nonsi.

Regarding the feats, I see what you are saying. It is certainly a problem. Do you think that more careful wording would alleviate the problem ( something like 'Gain a the greater/improved feat after X levels'). Or do you think this is unnecessary?

As for the abilities, I would be all for removing the 'once per day' thingy. I really like your suggestions. However (even if I make them optional by including them into the Heroics thingy, which you disapprove), I feel they are a bit ...unconductive to game balance.

Instant reaction means that the fighter always has an extra movement, in every turn. He is effectively as fast as a monk, and able to split his movement. He then could do the following: Get close to someone, attack, take a 5ft step and be 20 feet away, all in one go. Every time.

Combat mobility makes the fighter the only class in the game that could cram a full attack into a standard action. Even if we just keep the second part of the ability, he can move and full attack.

Tide of battle means that he can get two standard actions in a turn, both of them, when used in conjunction with the above, can be full attacks.

This puts him way way way ahead of all the other melee classes, able to perform more than a score of feats and spells together cannot provide.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that a better mobility and battlefield control is required. I just thing that your suggestions, especially since they are at will, more or less act like a supercharged haste/expeditious retreat, active all the time.

Novawurmson
2012-07-03, 11:55 AM
This is almost word for word what I was looking for in a Fighter fix. Excellent work.

For the nitpicking:

1. One of the biggest problems for Skill and Hard Work is that anyone can take Fighter 1 and then ignore all ability prerequisites. Even just an "add Fighter level to relevant ability modifier" goes a long way towards helping the Fighter; even one with a base score of 10 can qualify for most things at level 3.

2. I love Initial Training; flavorful and useful. The skill point increase is to 4 is a no-brainer, but needs to be called out; plus, it makes the archetypes that increase skills by +2 on par with the Ranger!

3. Weapon Aptitude is great, as is Grind the Teeth. I especially like Grind the Teeth because it gives Fighters more choices and resources to spend.

4. Heroics are great in theory, but need to be tweaked a bit. Again, I do like that they are mostly expendable abilities. Some of them might need to scale faster than others, or have prerequisites. I also like the idea of Heroics-chains like Rage Power-chains and Rogue-talent chains.

5. Have you seen the 3rd Party Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife)? A lot of the Blade Skills could be ported over to Heroics,

6. More Skirmisher Ranger abilities could work, as could many Rogue talents; heck, you might just say that the Skirmisher Ranger can pick Heroics as well. Maybe make a Rogue talent that lets them pick up a Heroic.

Again, overall this is wonderful; I might tweak the specifics of Heroics, but I think Paizo should errata in the majority of your changes immediately.

Novawurmson
2012-07-03, 12:08 PM
@nonsi - ToB is a perfectly acceptable 3.5 melee fix; it might as well be called the "Tome of Melee Gets Nice Things"; however, the ToB is 3.5 and generally not allowed at most tables. Having played a ToB character (a Warblade) in a PF game, I can say that the two do work well together, but the crossbreeds are rare. For the link you posted, that's not a Fighter - that's a Ruby Knight VWindicator, considered one of the best prestige classes in the game for a reason.

The real competition for a PF Fighter remake is other PF material, and Pathfinder has a much lower optimization threshold than 3.5. The current Pathfinder Fighter plays second fiddle to the Barbarian and the Ranger - two full BAB classes that can similar amounts of damage without tossing all their flexibility out the window.

Maneuverability and action economy are only part of the problem; what the Fighter needs are options. The Fighter can do damage, what he needs are reliable ways to buff/debuff/crowd control/party face/skillmonkey/etc.

nonsi
2012-07-03, 12:38 PM
Regarding the feats, I see what you are saying. It is certainly a problem. Do you think that more careful wording would alleviate the problem ( something like 'Gain a the greater/improved feat after X levels'). Or do you think this is unnecessary?

If you adopt my suggestions above (see comments below), there's no need.




As for the abilities, I would be all for removing the 'once per day' thingy. I really like your suggestions. However (even if I make them optional by including them into the Heroics thingy, which you disapprove), I feel they are a bit ...unconductive to game balance.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unconductive to game balance".




Instant reaction means that the fighter always has an extra movement, in every turn.

Not for free. He has to trade his immediate action /swift action + AoOs.




He is effectively as fast as a monk, and able to split his movement. He then could do the following: Get close to someone, attack, take a 5ft step and be 20 feet away, all in one go. Every time.

1. A monk with Spring Attack can do the same.
2. You're saying this as if the Monk didn't need massive power-up as well.




Combat mobility makes the fighter the only class in the game that could cram a full attack into a standard action. Even if we just keep the second part of the ability, he can move and full attack.

Sure. The others have spells, mounts/companions, Turn Undead, Divine Grace, smiting, HiPS, Hexes, spell-channeling, maneuvers, more skill points and whatnot - all of which are better than feats.




Tide of battle means that he can get two standard actions in a turn, both of them, when used in conjunction with the above, can be full attacks.

No way. He already spent his swift action (+ move action) to gain that standard action. He doesn't have any swift action left to make this newly gained standard action into full attack, so none of his two standard actions can be used to make a full attack. It's only really useful if he wishes to do something else with this newly acquired standard action during his turn other than attack. This actually makes Tide of Battle a feature that merits improvement. Maybe allowing the fighter to retain his swift even if he'd used up his immediate action after the end of his previous turn.




This puts him way way way ahead of all the other melee classes, able to perform more than a score of feats and spells together cannot provide.

1. Ditoo on "The others have...".
2. You really don't know much about the action economy of full casters, do you? Wall, I'll try to find you something on that subject, but start with a druid with Natural Spell. Now think of what he can do with his animal companion and a bunch of Summon Nature's Ally spells. As for the Wizard - check out some of the feats in Complete Arcane to get a clue just how badly it can abuse action economy (and THIS (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7150) just adds insult to injury).

nonsi
2012-07-03, 12:52 PM
@nonsi - ToB is a perfectly acceptable 3.5 melee fix; it might as well be called the "Tome of Melee Gets Nice Things"; however, the ToB is 3.5 and generally not allowed at most tables. Having played a ToB character (a Warblade) in a PF game, I can say that the two do work well together, but the crossbreeds are rare. For the link you posted, that's not a Fighter - that's a Ruby Knight VWindicator, considered one of the best prestige classes in the game for a reason.

The real competition for a PF Fighter remake is other PF material, and Pathfinder has a much lower optimization threshold than 3.5. The current Pathfinder Fighter plays second fiddle to the Barbarian and the Ranger - two full BAB classes that can similar amounts of damage without tossing all their flexibility out the window.

Maneuverability and action economy are only part of the problem; what the Fighter needs are options. The Fighter can do damage, what he needs are reliable ways to buff/debuff/crowd control/party face/skillmonkey/etc.

Have you ever encountered MY Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242257) ?

Novawurmson
2012-07-03, 01:05 PM
Have you ever encountered MY Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242257) ?

I actually have. It is quite a nice Fighter fix, but also significantly more complicated than most non-casting Pathfinder Classes. One of the reasons I'm particularly smitten with this bit of homebrew is that it slips on the standard Fighter like a glove, instead of creating a completely new subsystem.

It's much easier to say to my players "Make that 2 skills instead of 4, pick this, add this to your character sheet at this level, and pick one of these every 5 levels."

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 01:08 PM
I think you misunderstood me.


I'm not sure what you mean by "unconductive to game balance".

I do not want to elevate the fighter to a Tier 1 class. I want him to have his own niche, like the paladin for example has. If I was to fix the whole of PF (as you did, which I admire as an attempt), I would try if anything to bring the Druid and Wizard down a peg.
I also want the fighter to acquire his own distinct abilities, not plunder spells and abilities of other classes. Though I believe that the earlier suggestion of Soulknife and Ranger talents is worth considering.


Not for free. He has to trade his immediate action /swift action + AoOs.

True. Again, though, it is powerful.


1. A monk with Spring Attack can do the same.
2. You're saying this as if the Monk didn't need massive power-up as well.

The monk definitely needs a fix. But I wouldn't want the fighter to steal his only good thing. Something about the Flash fighter which constantly mover around in the battlefield in jogging speed while fully attacking I find strange



Sure. The others have spells, mounts/companions, Turn Undead, Divine Grace, smiting, HiPS, Hexes, spell-channeling, maneuvers, more skill points and whatnot - all of which are better than feats.

QFT. The fighter needs something that good. I am only debating what. I will think more about this


1. Ditoo on "The others have...".
2. You really don't know much about the action economy of full casters, do you? Wall, I'll try to find you something on that subject, but start with a druid with Natural Spell. Now think of what he can do with his animal companion and a bunch of Summon Nature's Ally spells. As for the Wizard - check out some of the feats in Complete Arcane to get a clue just how badly it can abuse action economy (and THIS just adds insult to injury).

Bringing into the discussion the Wizard and the Druid does not help in any way. We all know what they can do (intimately so). We might as well talk about the CODzilla. These are not good examples to try and create a balanced class. Ia m not trying to antagonize every build to be found in any CharOp board in the internet. Just solid Tier 2 or 3 core (more or less). This is why I aim for the paladin or the inquisitor.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 01:19 PM
@nonsi - ToB is a perfectly acceptable 3.5 melee fix; it might as well be called the "Tome of Melee Gets Nice Things"; however, the ToB is 3.5 and generally not allowed at most tables. Having played a ToB character (a Warblade) in a PF game, I can say that the two do work well together, but the crossbreeds are rare. For the link you posted, that's not a Fighter - that's a Ruby Knight VWindicator, considered one of the best prestige classes in the game for a reason.

The real competition for a PF Fighter remake is other PF material, and Pathfinder has a much lower optimization threshold than 3.5. The current Pathfinder Fighter plays second fiddle to the Barbarian and the Ranger - two full BAB classes that can similar amounts of damage without tossing all their flexibility out the window.

Maneuverability and action economy are only part of the problem; what the Fighter needs are options. The Fighter can do damage, what he needs are reliable ways to buff/debuff/crowd control/party face/skillmonkey/etc.

Thanks very much Novawurmson! What you describe in the above post and on the others was exactly my intention. Not a completely new system (I think ToB did that), just an easy to add augmentation.
I really like the idea of taking talents from the soulknife and the ranger. But I was also aiming for something completely fighter-ish. I will definitely look again, though.

nonsi
2012-07-03, 01:25 PM
I do not want to elevate the fighter to a Tier 1 class. I want him to have his own niche, like the paladin for example has.

My Warrior is Tier 3.
I don't believe you can bring your Fighter fix to tier 2 even if you tried.



True. Again, though, it is powerful.

Question is: is it OP ?

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 01:45 PM
Some possible heroics, adapted from the soulknife. The fact that the fighter gets very few of those, I think, makes the theft of the soulknife 's staff not so important.

Also added in the initial post.

Combat Slide: Upon successfully striking an enemy in melee, the fighter may immediately make a 5-foot step (even if she's already moved in the round, but not if she's taken a 5-foot step). In addition, when someone misses the fighter with a melee attack, she may spend an immediate action to take a 5-foot step.

Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

Caught unaware: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature's ability is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter 's Strength modifier (minimum 1). A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 01:46 PM
My Warrior is Tier 3.
I don't believe you can bring your Fighter fix to tier 2 even if you tried.


Question is: is it OP ?

Could be that the fighter is at best a Tier 3. That is fine by me. And yes, i believe that your Warrior is a Tier 3.

I don;t know if it is overpowered. Still thinking about it.

nonsi
2012-07-03, 01:46 PM
I actually have. It is quite a nice Fighter fix, but also significantly more complicated than most non-casting Pathfinder Classes. One of the reasons I'm particularly smitten with this bit of homebrew is that it slips on the standard Fighter like a glove, instead of creating a completely new subsystem.

It's much easier to say to my players "Make that 2 skills instead of 4, pick this, add this to your character sheet at this level, and pick one of these every 5 levels."

1. My Warrior really isn't all that complicated - just unorthodox. And it definitely doesn't require a completely new subsystem. I built it to stand alone without the need for extra rules.
2. I wasn't kidding myself that my Warrior would fit everybody, but what do you think of my proposed improvements for ProudGrognard's Fighter (Instant Reaction (7th), Combat Mobility (11th), Tide of battle (15th)) ?

Novawurmson
2012-07-03, 02:22 PM
Instant Reaction - A swift action for a full move action with no resources spent is incredibly, incredibly good. True, I play with Psionics and allow Hustle, but that's still a 3rd level power - a Psychic Warrior won't be able to spam it without seriously digging into his PP for buffs, other mobility powers, etc. Swift for a 5 foot step is pretty good, but steps on the Skirmisher Ranger's toes a bit. I like the immediate action+AoOs for 5 foot step. Overall, I'd rather give a Fighter something useful to do with his Swift actions (See: Magus, PF Paladin) than to give him a second move action.

Combat Mobility - The more I've tried it, the more I like the Vital Strike Tree as a substitute for pounce-like abilities. It's not as much damage as pounce, but I feel there should be a give-and-take for doing a move attack; it's just with Vital Strike, you're not completely screwed if you want to move. I like the move+attack anyone along the way part of Combat Mobility better - it gives the Fighter a new way to use his kit.

Tide of battle - On the one hand: This is incredibly powerful. On the other: This is boring and meta-gamey. It's fun to say "I'm a level 20 Rogue who is using Master Strike to cripple you!" or "My Alchemist hurls a bomb into the fray!" It's not flavorful to say "I give up my move and swift action to take a standard action!" True, it's all in how the player role-plays it, but there's a balance there.

Even more importantly, what's a (normal PF) Fighter going to do with a standard action? Hit somebody. What would he do with two standard actions? Hit people twice - but he can already do that with iterative attacks. True, he might do more damage with two Great Vital Strike's, but ultimately, the PF Fighter has very boring standard actions. I'd rather see heroics that give the Fighter cool things to do with his standard actions than other damage boost.

You've put in a lot of 3.5 input into the thread, so just let me ask: Have you seen an Inquisitor or especially a PF Paladin (the OP's balance point) in play? A lot of the draw comes from the fact that they can do quite a few things decently. On Sunday I was playing with a friend playing a level 2 PF Paladin, and he was having a blast Power Attacking people in the face while healing himself with Lay on Hands - in the same turn. He had good, tier-4 action economy that let him use daily resources to interact with his environment in multiple ways each turn.

FOR THE OP Actually, writing this has made me think: What this Fighter needs is a good, simple ability to use his spare low-level swift actions on: Inquisitors have Bane and Judgement, Paladins have Smite and Lay on Hands, etc.

Maybe something like this:

Battle-Hardened (Ex) - Constant testing in combat teaches fighters how to adept their defenses to their foe's attacks. As a swift action, a Fighter can give herself DR 1/bludgeoning, DR 1/piercing, or DR 1/slashing for 1 round. At Xth level, and every Xth level thereafter, this DR increases by one. She can do this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 Fighter level (minimum 1)+Con modifier (if positive).

Then make heroics to buff it!

True Servant (Ex) - When the Fighter uses her Battle-Hardened ability, instead of gaining DR piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, she can instead give herself DR of a specific alignment. Good Fighters gain DR /Evil, Chaotic Fighters gains DR /Law, etc. A Fighter who is two different qualifying alignments (i.e. a Lawful Evil Fighter) must pick one or the other; once chosen, this choice may not be changed. A Fighter must be either Evil, Good, Lawful, or Chaotic to take this Heroic.

&etc.

nonsi
2012-07-03, 03:31 PM
Instant Reaction - A swift action for a full move action with no resources spent is incredibly, incredibly good.

No. it's not incredibly good. It just means that you can spend a swift action to make a full attack without the restriction of being virtually rooted to the spot. If someone less than a move action away is about to slit your buddy's throat, you actually have a shot at saving them.
It also allows you to step aside and getaway if something is just about to fall on your head and you're not surprised.




True, I play with Psionics and allow Hustle, but that's still a 3rd level power - a Psychic Warrior won't be able to spam it without seriously digging into his PP for buffs, other mobility powers, etc.

And just how many things can one do with psionics that you'll never ever have a shot at with melee.
Does psionics need to trump melle on every single aspect ?




Swift for a 5 foot step is pretty good, but steps on the Skirmisher Ranger's toes a bit.

Too many base classes out there to cover too many niches.
The Fighter was initially meant as a tailor-made combatant, not just a grunt in a tin can. Let's make it happen.




I like the immediate action+AoOs for 5 foot step. Overall, I'd rather give a Fighter something useful to do with his Swift actions (See: Magus, PF Paladin) than to give him a second move action.

If he can't get there on time, then he won't be able to carry out his intentions.




Combat Mobility - The more I've tried it, the more I like the Vital Strike Tree as a substitute for pounce-like abilities.

Great. Let's waste some more of that precious resource called "feats".




It's not as much damage as pounce, but I feel there should be a give-and-take for doing a move attack; it's just with Vital Strike, you're not completely screwed if you want to move.

Emphasis mine.




Tide of battle - On the one hand: This is incredibly powerful.

No. It gives some more options than "I attack it some more". And it's practically the only means I see here (should it be adopted) to cope with Forcecage.




On the other: This is boring and meta-gamey.

To my better knowledge, meta-gaming means taking something totally useless at level [X] (sometimes several) in order to benefit from it at level [X+Y].
I don't recognize any such elements in my suggestions.




It's fun to say "I'm a level 20 Rogue who is using Master Strike to cripple you!" or "My Alchemist hurls a bomb into the fray!" It's not flavorful to say "I give up my move and swift action to take a standard action!" True, it's all in how the player role-plays it, but there's a balance there.

- Activate magical device
- Aid another
- Drink potion
- Stabilizing a dying ally
- Ready action
- Total defense
- Use skill
.
.
.





Even more importantly, what's a (normal PF) Fighter going to do with a standard action? Hit somebody. What would he do with two standard actions? Hit people twice - but he can already do that with iterative attacks. True, he might do more damage with two Great Vital Strike's, but ultimately, the PF Fighter has very boring standard actions. I'd rather see heroics that give the Fighter cool things to do with his standard actions than other damage boost.

1. Ditto.
2. Emphasis mine.
3. I don't see any contradiction between my suggestions and Heroics.





You've put in a lot of 3.5 input into the thread, so just let me ask: Have you seen an Inquisitor or especially a PF Paladin (the OP's balance point) in play? A lot of the draw comes from the fact that they can do quite a few things decently. On Sunday I was playing with a friend playing a level 2 PF Paladin, and he was having a blast Power Attacking people in the face while healing himself with Lay on Hands - in the same turn. He had good, tier-4 action economy that let him use daily resources to interact with his environment in multiple ways each turn.

As far as my mileage goes, martial classes have always had crippled mobility, except for very tight rooms or corridors.
Anywhere else, they just couldn't keep up.




Battle-Hardened (Ex) - Constant testing in combat teaches fighters how to adept their defenses to their foe's attacks. As a swift action, a Fighter can give herself DR 1/bludgeoning, DR 1/piercing, or DR 1/slashing for 1 round. At Xth level, and every Xth level thereafter, this DR increases by one. She can do this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 Fighter level (minimum 1)+Con modifier (if positive).

This one carries Su odor.
I have some background in martial arts and I can't for the life of me envision something that could even theoretically grant that in midfight.




True Servant (Ex) - When the Fighter uses her Battle-Hardened ability, instead of gaining DR piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, she can instead give herself DR of a specific alignment. Good Fighters gain DR /Evil, Chaotic Fighters gains DR /Law, etc. A Fighter who is two different qualifying alignments (i.e. a Lawful Evil Fighter) must pick one or the other; once chosen, this choice may not be changed. A Fighter must be either Evil, Good, Lawful, or Chaotic to take this Heroic.

This one even more.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 04:40 PM
FOR THE OP Actually, writing this has made me think: What this Fighter needs is a good, simple ability to use his spare low-level swift actions on: Inquisitors have Bane and Judgement, Paladins have Smite and Lay on Hands, etc.

Maybe something like this:

Battle-Hardened (Ex) - Constant testing in combat teaches fighters how to adept their defenses to their foe's attacks. As a swift action, a Fighter can give herself DR 1/bludgeoning, DR 1/piercing, or DR 1/slashing for 1 round. At Xth level, and every Xth level thereafter, this DR increases by one. She can do this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 Fighter level (minimum 1)+Con modifier (if positive).

Then make heroics to buff it!

True Servant (Ex) - When the Fighter uses her Battle-Hardened ability, instead of gaining DR piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, she can instead give herself DR of a specific alignment. Good Fighters gain DR /Evil, Chaotic Fighters gains DR /Law, etc. A Fighter who is two different qualifying alignments (i.e. a Lawful Evil Fighter) must pick one or the other; once chosen, this choice may not be changed. A Fighter must be either Evil, Good, Lawful, or Chaotic to take this Heroic.

&etc.

I see what you mean. But I seem to have immersion issues with the above. Why do fighters get an aura?
The more I think about it, the more I believe that there should be a way for the fighter to do cool battlefield control and have enhanced mobility. Unfortunately, except in very few cases, I think there should be some limit to how many times he could such things. And I do believe that many feats already do some good towards making most of the mobility (such as Vitals Strike, Stand Still and the like).
Or perhaps create a simple stamina points mechanic, where a fighter gets a pool and he can learn what to do with it through heroics (and some heroics would have zero cost). But again, this creates a complexity don't care for.

So I think I will try for some rewriting of heroics that scale somehow (after all, as written the fighter gets only five in his whole progression), and create some kind of mechanic for the automatic scaling of feats. This will free slots for even more customization, I think.

Novawurmson
2012-07-03, 05:38 PM
Well, for the immersion issues, have you had any martial arts training or fencing lessons? When people do different kinds of attacks, you dodge and divert the blows in different ways. For example, in fencing, when someone lunges at you, you don't just smack the blade out of the way, you block at an angle and try to catch their blade between your blade and your hilt. When someone swings a wild hay-maker at you, you don't block it, you dodge it. I see the Fighter as a trained combatant, able to identify his opponents style of attack and respond accordingly.

Just an idea for a basic swift action option for the Fighter.

LordErebus12
2012-07-03, 05:51 PM
Well, for the immersion issues, have you had any martial arts training or fencing lessons? When people do different kinds of attacks, you dodge and divert the blows in different ways. For example, in fencing, when someone lunges at you, you don't just smack the blade out of the way, you block at an angle and try to catch their blade between your blade and your hilt. When someone swings a wild hay-maker at you, you don't block it, you dodge it. I see the Fighter as a trained combatant, able to identify his opponents style of attack and respond accordingly.

Just an idea for a basic swift action option for the Fighter.

i agree with this

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 07:47 PM
After the feedback here and in other forums, I propose the following, all in all

BAB, Weapon and armor proficiencies, HD, Saves : Unchanged (but see Grind the teeth below).

Skills: 4 per level. Skill selection unchanged (however see Initial training below).


1st) Bonus feat, Initial training, Skill and hard work
2nd) Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude, Grind the teeth
3rd) Armor training
4th) Bonus feat
5th) Weapon training, Heroics
6th) Bonus feat, Feat mastery
7th) Armor training
8th) Bonus feat
9th) Weapon training, Heroics
10th)Bonus feat
11th)Armor training
12th)Bonus feat
13th)Weapon training, Heroics
14th)Bonus feat
15th)Armor training
16th)Bonus feat
17th)Weapon training, Heroics
18th)Bonus feat
19th)Armor mastery
20th)Bonus feat, Weapon mastery, Got you now, Heroics

Initial training (Ex): The fighter selects one of the skillsets below. These skills become class skills. He treats the associate ability score for these skills as 12, if it it isn't 12 or higher already. This becomes 14 at 6th level, 16 at 10th level and 18 at 15th level. If the skill is one that he already has in his skill list, he gains a +1 competence bonus to it, plus +1 in each level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20).

Guard: Knowledge(Local), Perception,Intimidation
Inspector: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive
Wilderness warrior: Knowledge (Nature), Survival,Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Mounted warrior: Ride, Handle animal, Knowledge (Nature)
Knight: Knowledge (Nobility), Diplomacy, Knowledge (Engineering)
Thug: Stealth, Climb, Acrobatics
Temple protector: Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft
Collegiate guard: Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes)
Mercenary: Diplomacy, Sense motive, Nobility
Caravan guard: Handle Animal, Perception, Appraise
Sailor : Climb, Geography, Swim, Acrobatics

Skill and hard work (Ex): The fighter can ignore the ability requirements when he selects a feat as his fighter bonus feats, if the ability in question is 10 or more.

(Note that the feat in question must be taken with fighter bonus feats. No one class dipping).

Weapon aptitude (Ex): As a full round action that does not provoke an AoO, the fighter can change the weapon specified in his feats (weapon focus, improved critical, etc).

Grind the teeth (Ex): A number of times equal to the fighter's Con mod + 1 per 3 levels (3rd,6th,9th,12th etc), the fighter can substitute his Will or Ref save with a Fort save. This must be decided before the roll is made.

Heroics (Ex): The fighter learns to perform extraordinary acts of heroism. He learns one at 5th level and one more at levels 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th. Every time he is eligible to learn a new heroic, he can also replace the ones he already knows with others from the list.

Harassment: A fighter targets a single foe which he is capable of attacking,with a standard attack. The target of the harasment takes a -2 modifier to all his attacks that do not target the the fighter, as long as the fighter spents at least an action attacking him. The penalty becomes -3 if the fighter is 10th level, -4 if 15th etc. If the fighter wants to change the target of his harrasment, he must take a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity to reposition himself.

Burst of speed: A fighter can increase his speed by 20ft for a number of minutes equal to half his level each day. These must be spent in 1 minute increments.

Put your back into it: As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Con modifier plus 1/4 levels, the fighter can add half his level to a Str, Dex or Con based skill checks.

Just a flesh wound: Once per day, the fighter can take a swift action to assess the damage done to him and convert a number of hit points equal to his Constitution modifier*level to nonlethal damage.

Break through: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can ignore spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural defenses and effects that grant protection when engaged in combat with an opponent. This applies only to spells and spellike abilities that grant AC, partial cover and displacement bonuses, not to invisibility or mirror image spells. The fighter declares his intention against a specific target as a swift action.The first successful attack acts as a targeted dispel, which does not actually dispel the active effects but instead allows the fighter to ignore it for the remainder of the encounter. The CL is the fighter's level.

Ignore impediment: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, ignore any and all impediments to his movement, as per the freedom of movement spell, for 1 minute.

Combat mobility: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as an immediate action, take an additional move action as part of his turn. This action can only be used for movement.

Overextending: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, extend his reach 5 feet for the duration of an encounter.

Surprise Shift: A number of times equal to his Constitution modifier the fighter can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Team leader: The fighter’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the fighter, as long as fighter takes a swift action each turn to coordinate them. Her allies do receive the bonuses from these feats regardless if they actually possess the feats themselves, but only as regarding the fighter. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the listed effects to take place.

(The above means that the paladin makes a shield wall with the fighter, but not with the barbarian, even if the barbarian does have the team feat in question).

Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

False security: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). The target is not paralyzed and is able to defend himself normally. A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.

Feat mastery (Ex): If the fighter has a combat feat that has an improved or greater version, he automatically gets the improved and greater versions in the levels he would be eligible for them. He must still meet the requirements for the improved and greater versions of the feat (but see Skill and hard work). In order for the ability to function, the character must have fighter levels equal to the BAB required by the greater or improved version.

Armor mastery: The DR given by the ability is DR/10.

Got you now (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can use his chosen weapon to make a touch attack (ranged or melee) as a standard attack. If it hits, it is a considered a confirmed critical. The ability is not expended if the attack misses.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 07:49 PM
Well, for the immersion issues, have you had any martial arts training or fencing lessons? When people do different kinds of attacks, you dodge and divert the blows in different ways. For example, in fencing, when someone lunges at you, you don't just smack the blade out of the way, you block at an angle and try to catch their blade between your blade and your hilt. When someone swings a wild hay-maker at you, you don't block it, you dodge it. I see the Fighter as a trained combatant, able to identify his opponents style of attack and respond accordingly.

Just an idea for a basic swift action option for the Fighter.

I see your point. However, wouldn't what you describe make a nice feat chain, rather than a hardwired ability? Perhaps a fighter only one.

Also, while the initial idea I like a lot, I still feel that the Good and Evil things is to paladinish.

ProudGrognard
2012-07-03, 11:17 PM
No. it's not incredibly good. It just means that you can spend a swift action to make a full attack without the restriction of being virtually rooted to the spot. If someone less than a move action away is about to slit your buddy's throat, you actually have a shot at saving them.
It also allows you to step aside and getaway if something is just about to fall on your head and you're not surprised.

If he can't get there on time, then he won't be able to carry out his intentions.


This hinges on the mobility issue. We all acknowledge that is an issue. The question is whether the solution you propose is the best one. In my proposal, there are many mobility options. In general, I do not like the fact that your fixes, while addressing the issue, turn fighter into Flash.


No. It gives some more options than "I attack it some more". And it's practically the only means I see here (should it be adopted) to cope with Forcecage.

Well, perhaps the Forcecage needs fixing then. If we are required to hardwire abilities into a whole class just to deal with it. And bear in mind that, if what I say is used, the fighter has a pretty good chance of making the save.


To my better knowledge, meta-gaming means taking something totally useless at level [X] (sometimes several) in order to benefit from it at level [X+Y].
I don't recognize any such elements in my suggestions.

I think metagaming is usually taken to mean that something addresses directly the mechanics of the game, without consideration for the flavor or immersion factor. One instance is what you describe, but not the most typical.


- Activate magical device
- Aid another
- Drink potion
- Stabilizing a dying ally
- Ready action
- Total defense
- Use skill

Actions are the most valuable currency in the game. It is easy to fix everything with more actions. But I for one dislike the fighter on superspeed.

nonsi
2012-07-04, 12:53 AM
Well, perhaps the Forcecage needs fixing then.

Is it the only official spell with that problem ?
I have no idea. I don't know all official 3e spells by heart.




In general, I do not like the fact that your fixes, while addressing the issue, turn fighter into Flash.
. . .
I think metagaming is usually taken to mean that something addresses directly the mechanics of the game, without consideration for the flavor or immersion factor.
. . .
Actions are the most valuable currency in the game. It is easy to fix everything with more actions. But I for one dislike the fighter on superspeed.

Actually, your proposed Burst of Speed is more in the line of turning the fighter into “The Flash”.
My suggestions are not about addressing things on that angle at all. An ironclad fighter would still have his regular movement rate of 20ft.
Look, the description of the things you can do with your combat turn, much like HP, is an abstraction. You can do only so much during your 6-sec combat turn. However, given the right circumstances and the right feats (Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Sidestep…) you can actually do more when it’s not your turn than when it is.
The out-of-turn period is the time when someone on the battlefield recuperates, gets a grip and makes his planning for his next combat turn. My approach just means that a high level fighter does all these even as he acts. His mind is so combat-attuned that he doesn’t need that recuperate-time-period, so he can get more (actions) for his money’s worth (battlefield time).
Remember that as far as skills go, level 5 is supposed to stand for the very upper edge of mortal human capabilities, with a handful few in history ever making it to level 6 (king David, Genghis Khan, Buddha…). So, a 7th level fighter is already super-human.
And what about movement as a swift action, you’d probably ask. Well, with Run feat, you can spend a full round action to make 5 move-actions rather than 2 (4 without the feat). Does it mean that you’ve actually become faster? No. it means that you’ve learned how to make the most of your battlefield running (I’m not sure what the rules are regarding out-of-combat running, but in my view you should be able to make that 5x movement without the need for Run feat when your mind is not occupied with combat). And how’s this reconciled with attacking and moving, you’d probably now ask. For that I’d suggest you watch a few Jet Lee, Jacky Chan and Steven Segal movies, to figure how is it possible to move, attack and dodge – all at the same time (different styles – same benefit).

Ghost49X
2013-02-16, 11:24 AM
Personally this should be an archetype because the classes are so far pretty well balanced and giving something without taking something away seems unbalancing to me. But as the OP has already voiced his opinion on that I've posted my opinion on the rest of the proposed fixes (Though I'm taking a hard liner approach to things as they would otherwise tend to get out of hand)


Is it the only official spell with that problem ?
I have no idea. I don't know all official 3e spells by heart.
And how’s this reconciled with attacking and moving, you’d probably now ask. For that I’d suggest you watch a few Jet Lee, Jacky Chan and Steven Segal movies, to figure how is it possible to move, attack and dodge – all at the same time (different styles – same benefit).

Strange, I see all those actors as great role models for a monk rather than a fighter.



Skills: 4 per level. Skill selection unchanged: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str) (plus see Initial training below).

Well my standard fighter build already has 4-5 skills per level (Base 2, Human +1, Favoured class +1, and I usually try to get at least 13 Int to dip in the Combat Expertise feat chain so +1) Should you have more int you get more skills, as the fighter doesn't have mandatory skills required to function, you can round out your character by taking what ever you want. Giving him more would give too much to skill monkeys who are taking a level in fighter for the combat effectiveness.


Initial training (Ex): The fighter selects one of the skillsets below. These skills become class skills. He treats the associate ability score for these skills as 12, if it it isn't 12 or higher already. This becomes 14 at 6th level, 16 at 10th level and 18 at 15th level. If the skill is one that he already has in his skill list, he gains a +1 competence bonus to it, plus +1 in each level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20).

Out of class skill choices are a lot more viable in PF than in 3.5, Should you really want the +3 that comes out of having a class skill you can always take you can take this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hermean-blood) or a feat inspired from it or skill focus and get +3 which will eventually become +5. The Second part of this fix I do approve; treating the ability score as 12 (or eventually higher) if it's lower, would help the fighter being more versatile while avoiding taking away from the skill monkeys



Skill and hard work (Ex): The fighter can ignore the ability requirements when he selects a feat as his fighter bonus feats, if the ability in question is 10 or more.
(Note that the feat in question must be taken with fighter bonus feats. No one class dipping).

I feel this is something that gets better dealt with if players have better abilities, so more points for point buy (and a way to keep players from just ignoring dump stats) or a better rolling formula. For reference when I GM and we use point buy here is an example of what a fighter could start with:

{table=head;width=10%]{colsp=2}Before Racial mods

Str|18

Dex|12

Con|14

Int|13

Wis|12

Cha|10
[/table]


Weapon aptitude (Ex): As a full round action that does not provoke an AoO, the fighter can change the weapon specified in his feats (weapon focus, improved critical, etc).

It's good to see a fighter fight with different weapons, but most just stick to their main weapon and maybe a secondary one. How about you let his weapon specific feats apply to all weapons groups he has weapon training for?


Grind the teeth (Ex): A number of times equal to the fighter's Con mod + 1 per 3 levels (3rd,6th,9th,12th etc), the fighter can substitute his Will or Ref save with a Fort save. This must be decided before the roll is made.

I like the style and fluff of this ability but I fear it chips away at some of the fighter's weakness in combat. This weakness can already alleviated by taking Iron will and lightning Reflexes as well as their Improved versions (You can also get magic items to stack with this but since I can't predict what all GMs will give/allow their players to buy I'll leave them out)
Also the PF fighter gets bravoury with gives him extra bonuses to will against fear.


Armor training: Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

I believe this ability hasn't changed from the core book, if it did what did you change?


Heroics (Ex): The fighter learns to perform extraordinary acts of heroism. He learns one at 5th level and one more at levels 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th. Every time he is eligible to learn a new heroic, he can also replace the ones he already knows with others from the list.

I do like the concept, but adding this much sauce requires you take something away. Might I suggest him losing 1 free feat at the level after getting each heroics. You could also add a feat allowing him to take a heroic as long as he meets the requirement for that heroic.



Harassment: A fighter targets a single foe which he is capable of attacking,with a standard attack. The target of the harasment takes a -2 modifier to all his attacks that do not target the the fighter, as long as the fighter spends at least an action attacking him. The penalty becomes -3 if the fighter is 10th level, -4 if 15th etc. If the fighter wants to change the target of his harassment, he must take a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity to reposition himself.

I see the similarities with the 4E "mark" I would personally drop the move action and say as a free action (once per turn) the fighter can apply this ability to one target he has attacked this turn (whether his attack has hit or missed) and make it last until his next turn. (He can target the same target on his following turn if he wants)


Burst of speed: A fighter can increase his speed by 20ft for a number of minutes equal to half his level each day. These must be spent in 1 minute increments.

Decent ability, how long does he have to rest before using another increment?


Put your back into it: As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Con modifier plus 1/4 levels, the fighter can add half his level to a Str, Dex or Con based skill checks.

I like this one, but I'm not sure it makes sense for dex related skills, this and naturally high physical abilities would also allow the fighter to maintain a decent bonus for related skills while allowing him to save up on skill points or give him the opportunities for herculean feats of strength/endurance


Just a flesh wound: Once per day, the fighter can take a swift action to assess the damage done to him and convert a number of hit points equal to his Constitution modifier*level to nonlethal damage.

Can he use this if he's unconscious? Can he take this multiple times to get more uses /day out of it?


Break through: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can ignore spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural defenses and effects that grant protection when engaged in combat with an opponent. This applies only to spells and spellike abilities that grant AC, partial cover and displacement bonuses, not to invisibility or mirror image spells. The fighter declares his intention against a specific target as a swift action.The first successful attack acts as a targeted dispel, which does not actually dispel the active effects but instead allows the fighter to ignore it for the remainder of the encounter. The CL is the fighter's level.

I feel as just by passing these effects takes the fun out of them, maybe reworking the mechanic to allowing him to re roll if he misses? The rest of the encounter is a bit OP, especially since he'll eventually have multiple uses of it


Ignore impediment: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, ignore any and all impediments to his movement, as per the freedom of movement spell, for 1 minute.

Good ability, but the name's kinda bad, where's those "tough guy" ability names you've come up with so far? j/k :smalltongue:


Combat mobility: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as an immediate action, take an additional move action as part of his turn. This action can only be used for movement.

I feel as this ability would be OP if stacked with "Burst of Speed" It would also allow moving and full attacks which so far has been avoided everywhere else for a reason.


Overextending: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, extend his reach 5 feet for the duration of an encounter.

I think this is already available through a feat called "Lunge" from the core rulebook. Maybe the ability to threaten squares within an extra 5 feet? with a free 5 foot step and AoO to close with and punish enemies who aren't careful.


Surprise Shift: A number of times equal to his Constitution modifier the fighter can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

I'm assuming you meant #times/day? It be decent enough, the ability to do a second 5 foot step could be quite useful


Team leader: The fighter’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the fighter, as long as fighter takes a swift action each turn to coordinate them. Her allies do receive the bonuses from these feats regardless if they actually possess the feats themselves, but only as regarding the fighter. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the listed effects to take place.

(The above means that the paladin makes a shield wall with the fighter, but not with the barbarian, even if the barbarian does have the team feat in question).

Good ability to have (Since I have failed so far to convince other people to get the teamwork feats I've wanted)


Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

Why not allow the fighter to make a normal attack? Since the maneuver is a standard action it would still allow the fighter to deal decent damage while doing his maneuver (which so far most of my players avoid since they lose damage)


False security: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Sure, but I think "Vengeful Strike" would be a better name for this :smalltongue:


Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Doesn't this take away the point of combat expertise?


Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). The target is not paralyzed and is able to defend himself normally. A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.

I believe hamstring is a rogue's ability, instead I'd go with a "Pinned down" ability that allows the fighter to stab someone (requires a piercing weapon) and pins a limb to a surface (usually a foot to the ground but could be a hand to a wall or something; this ability would require the fighter to switch weapons as his other weapon is currently holding his enemy down. The enemy could attempt to remove the weapon but doing this provokes AoO and requires a strength check (DC fighter's strength)


Feat mastery (Ex): If the fighter has a combat feat that has an improved or greater version, he automatically gets the improved and greater versions in the levels he would be eligible for them. He must still meet the requirements for the improved and greater versions of the feat (but see Skill and hard work). In order for the ability to function, the character must have fighter levels equal to the BAB required by the greater or improved version.

Way too much sauce, I know you want to step away from 1 trick ponies but this is going to the other extreme. With my standard fighter I usually have enough feats to take around 3 feat chains (more or less depending how many non-combat feats I take) this would allow me be an stoppable Juggernaut. Fighters already receive a stupid amount of feats and access some pretty cool fighter only feats, I can't see myself asking for more.
This ability also leaves the door wide open for multiclass abuse because a lot of feats designed for other classes scale on that class's mechanics instead of BAB; rogues for example have feats that scale off of sneak attack.
Looking quickly here's a list of "improved/greater feats" I left out improved feats that didn't have a "normal" version of it's self (ex: Improved Trip)
Blind-Fight, Greater
Blind-Fight, Improved
Bull Rush, Greater
Bull Rush, Improved
Dirty Trick, Greater
Disarm, Greater
Drag, Greater
Feint, Greater
Grapple, Greater
Improved Charging Hurler
Improved Cleaving Finish
Improved Devastating Strike
Improved Impaling Critical
Improved Initiative
Improved Low Blow
Improved Rending Fury
Improved Snap Shot
Improved Surprise Follow-Through
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Improved Whip Mastery
Improved Steal
Overrun, Greater
Penetrating Strike, Greater
Precise Shot, Improved
Reposition, Greater
Shield Focus
Shield Focus, Greater
Shield Specialization, Greater
Sidestep, Improved
Steal, Greater
Sunder, Greater
Trip, Greater
Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater
Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved
Vital Strike, Greater
Vital Strike, Improved
Weapon Focus, Greater
Weapon Specialization, Greater

Armor mastery: The DR given by the ability is DR/10.
The base DR 5/- takes into account the fact that you probably have better at this point (magic items or buffs) but works towards giving you base DR that can't be bypassed (except by another fighter with Improved Penetrating strike)


Got you now (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can use his chosen weapon to make a touch attack (ranged or melee) as a standard attack. If it hits, it is a considered a confirmed critical. The ability is not expended if the attack misses.
This ability is OP, it's even better than the level 20 fighter Weapon mastery class ability. It doesn't have any prerequisites to limit people from taking it early on and it would pose serious balancing issues when a fighter with a x3 crit weapon attacks a squishy class like a wizard, hell even a rogue could be 1 shotted by this (it's not like the fighter has difficulty hitting these classes at least once in a round) AND you want this to be reliable? (4E keyword, means the ability doesn't get used up on a miss) The wizard equivalent would be an Arcane discovery that allows me to choose a spell and not "loose it when I cast it and people pass the DC" imagine that with Phantasmal killer (level 4 spell available at level 7)

Consider allowing the fighter to deal max damage on hit for a normal attack a few times a day.

Amechra
2013-02-16, 08:42 PM
I'm actually going to suggest that, if you want more feats, let Fighters just spend some XP after a certain point (or GP, or time, or whatever) to "buy" feats that would extend one of their feat chains that they qualify for.

Badda bing. Badda boom.

TopCheese
2013-02-17, 07:54 AM
Ok first off for people who say the Fighter is perfect and/or balanced for PF aparently never played Fighter (or other martial types) in Pathfinder. Pathfinder nerfed melee which already wasn't that great, though they did boost ranged quite a bit. If you take a Fighter up against a oponent of the appropoate level then eventually (level 10 ish) the fighter is screwed where as there are many classes that can handle such threats with ease.

Paizo was originally Dragon Magazine (same ppl) so it isn't a surprise for the balance to be way off.

B: I wanted to add in that the biggest problem with the Fighter is her inability to say the word "no" in combat. Though not all the time, tier 3 and higher classes get to shut down enemies besides doing HP damage. Wither it is an entanglement, sleep, or some other ability .... The Fighter just can't do stuff like that.

Thirdly: People who say the Fighter is versitiles are wronger than in 3.5. They nerfed the feats in PF and split them up, what's the point of having bonus feats or more feats if you have to take more than before? Also if a Fighter doesn't specialize (thus lowering versitility)then they will be inaficeint in or out of combat.

C: A two level dip doesn't make the class versitile it just shows the class has 2 really good dipping levels for feats.

As for your fighter...

Note: I hate daily abilities on 3.5 mundane classes... They make no sense. Also I will suggest some Barbarian stuff, barbarian and fighters are both warriors so I don't see why they wouldn't overlap... The difference is the barbarian gets to boost their power as they rage while the fighter does not.

Grind the Teeth: Why not make this active all the time? The Paladin has his charisma to saves why not give the fighter her con bonus to saves? Don't let it stack with anything else like the mentioned Paladin's cha mod. Giving Fighter daily powers is what people didn't like about 4th. If you want to make it a pool then you should take ToB as an example and go by encounter.

Harrasement: Sounds good but there are soooo many ways to take a Fighter out of the err fight that you are just begging to be hit with a will save, which as you have it grind youteeth will only save the fighter a few times a day (if it does at all.. bad will save remember).

Put your back into it is a daily ability? Why not an encounter ability? Let them do it again after 5 min rest?

Break Through: Daily Ability... You should just give the Fighter "Spell Sunder" from the barbarian rage power list. Make it an encounter ability.


Maneuver Master: Problem is eventually you fight things you can't trip/sunder/bull rush due to size/no weapons/size. Let the fighter count herself as larger sizes in order to bullrush that pesky great wrym.

Trade Blows: Why not just use "Come and Get Me"? If the fighter uses total defense then the enemy isn't harrased anymore and the Fighter may just be sitting there during the fight and not wading through battle like she should be.

Hamstring: Why not make this replace a melee attack? If you make it an all or nothing no one would use it. The fort save is rather low.. At tenth level most melee monster/enemies can have a +15 to fort saves easily.

More later though, I need to get to work.

Keep up the good work, I didn't really get to say what I liked (which is a lot actually).

Ghost49X
2013-02-17, 09:08 AM
Ok first off for people who say the Fighter is perfect and/or balanced for PF apparently never played Fighter (or other martial types) in Pathfinder. Pathfinder nerfed melee which already wasn't that great, though they did boost ranged quite a bit. If you take a Fighter up against a opponent of the appropriate level then eventually (level 10 ish) the fighter is screwed where as there are many classes that can handle such threats with ease.




B: I wanted to add in that the biggest problem with the Fighter is her inability to say the word "no" in combat. Though not all the time, tier 3 and higher classes get to shut down enemies besides doing HP damage. Wither it is an entanglement, sleep, or some other ability .... The Fighter just can't do stuff like that.
There will always be threats that some classes will be weaker against and others will be stronger. (Rogues for example suck against enemies that are immune to sneak attacks like undead, and wizards have a general hard time vs spell resistance or against monks). It really ends up depending on your DM, if he constantly sends you against enemies that are immune to your abilities then it be the same as constantly sending magic immune enemies against a wizard.



Thirdly: People who say the Fighter is versatile are wronger than in 3.5. They nerfed the feats in PF and split them up, what's the point of having bonus feats or more feats if you have to take more than before? Also if a Fighter doesn't specialize (thus lowering versatility)then they will be inefficient in or out of combat.

Can you name examples of feats that were nerfed unjustly? As far as I'm concerned it's more an issue of people knowing how to use the mechanics and adapt to the issue on hand.And as far as I know they actually buffed some of the feats (cleave for example) and added more to some of the feat chains. They also reworked maneuvers to streamline them and get people to use 'em without having to go through the rule book every time.


C: A two level dip doesn't make the class versatile it just shows the class has 2 really good dipping levels for feats.

You'd really have to define versatility at this point, are you asking for the wizard's versatility? I mean do you expect to be able to do just about anything even roles normally filled by other classes? Some things are still broken, and breaking more things doesn't help fix the issue.

Fighters can be made into any type of combatant, from an archer, dual-wielder, tank, crowd control, burst dps, hell I could even make a stealth dps burster fighter if I wanted.

Overall, the game is meant to be played as a team.

Clericzilla
2013-02-17, 07:12 PM
Can you name examples of feats that were nerfed unjustly? As far as I'm concerned it's more an issue of people knowing how to use the mechanics and adapt to the issue on hand.And as far as I know they actually buffed some of the feats (cleave for example) and added more to some of the feat chains. They also reworked maneuvers to streamline them and get people to use 'em without having to go through the rule book every time.

*raises hand* ooh me!

1: Power Attack: Not because of pure damage output but they nerfed the flexibility of this feature. Also Shock Trooper is now barbarian only (rage power) feature. Versatility was taken away which I see as a nerf.

2: Maneuver Feats: Improved Bullrush will be my example. In 3.5 these were 1 feat, now they are 2 in PF. Also you have to be BAB +6 which means even with all your extra feats you still have to wait to a minimum of level 6 to take the best form. So if I want to be awesome at bullrushing I have to wait till level 6.... Really? The wizard can bend reality to their will but the Fighter can't be an awesome pusher? *sigh*.

Of course the system is stacked against maneuver types anyways but that is beside the point.

3: Penalties (This goes with almost all mundane feats): When a magic user takes a feat such as a item creation or metamagic what are they giving up? Nothing really, using 3rd level spells in higher level slots is a pretty good option. Using gp (which within the rules is a river) isn't really a drawback compared to what you are making. Lunge, Power Attack, Piranha, and others all give a penalty to attack (the fighter's main thing) to attempt to do damage. I can't count the number of times I've seen a player miss when using a mundane feat and when they do hit with say Power Attack then they don't stay happy for long since the monster isn't dead, just scratched.




Fighters can be made into any type of combatant, from an archer, dual-wielder, tank, crowd control, burst dps, hell I could even make a stealth dps burster fighter if I wanted.


Well yes but then that is all you can do. A tier 3 or higher class can usually choose from day to day what type of combatant they want to be. A Bard can be a melee dervish type, buffer, or debuffer depending on the day. A Wizard/Cleric can literally do anything. A Sorcerer can even mix it up.

A Fighter has to choose one route to be good at and then everything else the fighter will be "meh".

Archery is actually decent in PF compared to 3.5.

Dual-wielding is only worth it if you have extra bonus damage (sneak attack) which has been shown time and time again.

Fighter's can't really Tank, there is no reason for enemies to be stuck dealing with them (look at the Crusader from 3.5).

Fighter can't really crowd control either. The Fighter can somewhat control one creature but then again once you hit level 7 to 10... The enemies have spell casting or natural abilities that the Fighter can't keep up with. Go ahead and take combat reflexes but then your strength attacks will suffer or con mod, or intelligence, or wisdom... yeah. Or you can make your entire build based around Dex but that takes tons of feats and then all your bonus feats don't mean much.

Damage is about the only thing the Fighter can do, however the Fighter is easily shut down... Actually the easiest class to shut down.

The problem is the thought of mundane classes and how people associate mundane with limited. A Fighter should be a Extraordinary combatant! Someone that throws a shield and it bounces off multiple enemies, someone that doesn't need to fly since he can just jump and full attack a fling enemy, someone that isn't "mundane".

(I wanted to edit this before sending but I'm off to work)

Ghost49X
2013-02-17, 10:52 PM
*raises hand* ooh me!
1: Power Attack: Not because of pure damage output but they nerfed the flexibility of this feature. Also Shock Trooper is now barbarian only (rage power) feature. Versatility was taken away which I see as a nerf.

Power Attack (PF: CRB p.131)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Power Attack 3.5 (PH1 p.98
Prerequisite Str 13.
Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Though the 3.5 version of the feat can deal more damage the PF version gets a better bonus for it's penalty and is more streamlined in an effort to reduce the time spent "wondering about just how much attack bonus to gamble" now you can just decide whether to use it or not. Even if you want to max out your damage the 3.5 version just reduces your chances to hit beyond what is mathematically feasible. Overall I say this feat got a buff.

I've looked for the shock trooper feat/rage power thing and I haven't found anything, please be more specific.


2: Maneuver Feats: Improved Bullrush will be my example. In 3.5 these were 1 feat, now they are 2 in PF. Also you have to be BAB +6 which means even with all your extra feats you still have to wait to a minimum of level 6 to take the best form. So if I want to be awesome at bullrushing I have to wait till level 6.... Really? The wizard can bend reality to their will but the Fighter can't be an awesome pusher? *sigh*.

Of course the system is stacked against maneuver types anyways but that is beside the point.

You don't "NEED" the feat to bullrush people in ether of the systems, it just helps by preventing attacks of opportunities and gives you a bonus. Just wondering what 2 feats did you say was "required" to bull rush?


3: Penalties (This goes with almost all mundane feats): When a magic user takes a feat such as a item creation or metamagic what are they giving up? Nothing really, using 3rd level spells in higher level slots is a pretty good option. Using gp (which within the rules is a river) isn't really a drawback compared to what you are making. Lunge, Power Attack, Piranha, and others all give a penalty to attack (the fighter's main thing) to attempt to do damage. I can't count the number of times I've seen a player miss when using a mundane feat and when they do hit with say Power Attack then they don't stay happy for long since the monster isn't dead, just scratched.

Meta magic isn't as free of a trade as you'd think, as a matter of fact in most cases most people I know dislike metamagic due to it's cost of requiring a high level spell when they could just memorize a better spell.
Also Item creation can help the fighter as much as the wizard. Craft Magic arms and armor for example is more likely to benefit the combative classes than the wizard. Craft Wondrous items is a great use to everyone. Crafted items can be cursed or unreliable. In Pathfinder every class can craft magical items (even the fighter!) yes it cost an extra feat but it also takes care of all spell prerequisites for crafting the item.


Well yes but then that is all you can do. A tier 3 or higher class can usually choose from day to day what type of combatant they want to be. A Bard can be a melee dervish type, buffer, or debuffer depending on the day. A Wizard/Cleric can literally do anything. A Sorcerer can even mix it up.
I'm not sure what you meant by tier 3 or higher, but though Wizards can switch around a few spells and are quite versatile they'll never be as good without the feats/prestige classes required to make the best out of a build. Similarly a fighter who usually fights with a 2hand sword can pick up a shield and 1hander but he won't be as good. He can still use some of his feats and abilities nevertheless.


A Fighter has to choose one route to be good at and then everything else the fighter will be "meh".

As explained above all classes will suck outside of their specialty, it's your fault if you build him hyper-specialized then you complain that it's the only thing he can do.


Fighter's can't really Tank, there is no reason for enemies to be stuck dealing with them
That's cause you aren't annoying enough to the enemy, when you start preventing casters from casting spells or dropping them within a full attack, they'll start respecting you more.


Fighter can't really crowd control either. The Fighter can somewhat control one creature but then again once you hit level 7 to 10... The enemies have spell casting or natural abilities that the Fighter can't keep up with. Go ahead and take combat reflexes but then your strength attacks will suffer or con mod, or intelligence, or wisdom... yeah. Or you can make your entire build based around Dex but that takes tons of feats and then all your bonus feats don't mean much.

Not every enemy is made to bow to the fighter, but in general he can still keep the enemy squishies in check, protect his own squishies and with the help of a few magic items he can still do some control. He's also one of the more effective classes at crowd controlling inside an anti-magic field


Damage is about the only thing the Fighter can do, however the Fighter is easily shut down... Actually the easiest class to shut down.

It all depends on how you build him, if you min/max him so he doesn't have any will save he deserves to be put to sleep while the other people fight. If you're talking about a few abilities that can still knock him out of the fight for awhile a dispel magic (ether from a friendly caster) or from one of his own magic items (if you're not going to have friendly casters who are willing to dispel you out of crap you should carry your own means of escape)



The problem is the thought of mundane classes and how people associate mundane with limited. A Fighter should be a Extraordinary combatant! Someone that throws a shield and it bounces off multiple enemies, someone that doesn't need to fly since he can just jump and full attack a fling enemy, someone that isn't "mundane".

Fighters can be a great class, but they need to be supported and most of all they need to be smart, fighters who "charge, then full attack on the next round, rinse and repeat" are the reason a lot of people miss the potential he has.

That being said I believe the OP was stating that he wasn't versatile enough not that he wasn't playable.