Chameleon optimization

[Soranar]

This is what I have so far

Race: Illumian (for krau sigil, not sure which word combination is the best though)

Alignment: any

Progression

1 Spellthief able learner
2 Spellthief
3 Spellthief open feat
4 Spellthief
5 Spellthief
6 Chameleon Practiced spellcaster (spellthief)
7 Chameleon
8 Chameleon
9 Abjurant Champion (progress spellthief spellcasting) open feat
10 Abjurant Champion
11 Abjurant Champion
12 Abjurant Champion Master Spellthief
13 Abjurant Champion
14 Chameleon
15 Chameleon open feat
16 Chameleon
17 Chameleon
18 Chameleon open feat
19 Chameleon
20 Chameleon

note: one of the feats should be martial proficiency : x (still debating which to pick)

Build trick

Use Abjurant champion to progress your spellthief caster level (and spell progression, in order to qualify for master spellthief), add your caster level to your Chameleon level

Your spellthief caster level = 20 due to the following

15 BAB (martial arcanist) , +2 from krau, +4 from practiced spellcaster (capped at 20 so 20)

+ twice your chameleon level (20)

= 40

You get access to any spell from any spellbook so wings of flurry (sorcerer only) and hunter's eye (ranger only) become fair game (though, arguably, your divine caster level is 20 tops).


any ideas for feats , templates, spells that would work well here? (and which weapon proficiency I should pick?, the first few levels will be heavily reliant on it, I'm thinking longbow so far)

[Malacode]

Martial weapons? Easy pick, a Falchion is always awesome. That being said, you're spending a feat, so pick up a EWP: Whip. Trip is rather useful, 15ft reach more so. Okay, so you don't get AoOs, so carry something else in the other hand for that. You won't take the penalties for attacking with multiple weapons unless you attack with both at once. The only caveat is if your DM doesn't allow the whip to deliver bonus damage (Sneak attack, certain spells) if the whips' own damage gets negated by armour/natural armour. In that case, just stick with Falchion.

[Waker]

Falchion is a fun weapon, but I'm somewhat partial to halberds. Two-handed weapon for 1.5 Str, multiple damage types, can be set against a charge.

[deuxhero]

I think I still prefer Factotum breaking the action economy and all skills still.

[candycorn]

Abjurant Champion cannot progress Chameleon caster levels, at least, not the way you have it.


You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.


So chameleon can't qualify you for AbChamp.

That said, I like:
Factotum 4 / Warblade 1 / Chameleon 10 / Factotum +4 / Warblade +1

You get up to level 6 arcane spells, level 6 divine spells, level 6 maneuvers, and you get factotum boosts up to level 8, allowing you to get extra standard actions to use your other stuff. It's quite a potent option.

[deuxhero]

He isn't advancing Chameleon. He is advancing Spelltheif and using Master Spellthief to add his Spellthief CL to his Chameleon CL.

[candycorn]

Master Spellthief only stacks 2 types of things for determining caster level:

1) Spellthief LEVELS
2) LEVELS in other Arcane casting classes.

As I see it, Abjurant Champion's text on "caster level = BAB" is neither a level of spellthief, nor is it a level from an Arcane casting class. It's a special ability, granted by a prestige class.

Therefore, Master Spellthief will not stack it with Chameleon levels.

That means that your caster level would be:
Levels in spellthief + Abjurant champ (10) / 2 = 5.
+2 from Krau = 7
+4 from Practiced spellcaster = 11
+20 (Chameleon, only when you have adopted Arcane focus) = 31

OR

BAB 15 (caster level 15) + 2 (krau) + 4 (Practiced spellcaster, max 20) = 20
and does not stack with anything else, because the above caster level is not one of the things Master Spellthief allows to stack with other classes.

Still nice, but really? There's too many ways to get CL +10. It's nothing special, especially on a class with a 6th level spell as your highest slot.

...but wait. That chameleon caster level isn't granted by levels in the chameleon class. It's granted when you activate a special ability of a prestige class. So there's at least an argument that that wouldn't stack either.

[Soranar]

Master Spellthief only stacks 2 types of things for determining caster level:

1) Spellthief LEVELS
2) LEVELS in other Arcane casting classes.

As I see it, Abjurant Champion's text on "caster level = BAB" is neither a level of spellthief, nor is it a level from an Arcane casting class. It's a special ability, granted by a prestige class.

Therefore, Master Spellthief will not stack it with Chameleon levels.

That means that your caster level would be:
Levels in spellthief + Abjurant champ (10) / 2 = 5.
+2 from Krau = 7
+4 from Practiced spellcaster = 11
+20 (Chameleon, only when you have adopted Arcane focus) = 31

OR

BAB 15 (caster level 15) + 2 (krau) + 4 (Practiced spellcaster, max 20) = 20
and does not stack with anything else, because the above caster level is not one of the things Master Spellthief allows to stack with other classes.

Still nice, but really? There's too many ways to get CL +10. It's nothing special, especially on a class with a 6th level spell as your highest slot.

...but wait. That chameleon caster level isn't granted by levels in the chameleon class. It's granted when you activate a special ability of a prestige class. So there's at least an argument that that wouldn't stack either.

Your whole argument depends on how you interpret master spellthief, I suggest you reread the feat:

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells"

and abjurant champion's martial arcanist ability

"your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus"

is master spellthief an arcane spellcasting class? yes it is
does it benefit from martial arcanist? again yes

Thus the following happens: I cast a chameleon spell (at 2x my chameleon level), as I do so I am casting an arcane spell, master spellthief is triggered and my caster levels are combined

final result = 40 caster levels for any chameleon arcane spell

[candycorn]

Your whole argument depends on how you interpret master spellthief, I suggest you reread the feat:

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells"

and abjurant champion's martial arcanist ability

"your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus"

is master spellthief an arcane spellcasting class? yes it is
does it benefit from martial arcanist? again yes

Thus the following happens: I cast a chameleon spell (at 2x my chameleon level), as I do so I am casting an arcane spell, master spellthief is triggered and my caster levels are combined

final result = 40 caster levels for any chameleon arcane spell

Wrong.

Here is the default rule:
Each spellcasting class is discrete. Caster levels are calculated seperately, and do not stack.

Next default rule:
Your caster level in an arcane class is usually equal to your level in that class. (this is the rule for determining caster level, which is referenced by Master Spellthief)

Spellthief specific:
Your caster level is equal to half your levels in Spellthief.

So, when determining spellthief caster level, you take your total levels in the class, halve them, round it down, and that's your caster level.

Master Spellthief alters this, allowing you to add levels in other spellcasting classes, when determining your caster level .

However, when you are using something other than levels to determine caster level (such as with Abjurant Champion), then [b]that method does not stack.

So you can use the base method, and stack Spellthief and Chameleon (possibly)...

Or you can use Abjurant champion, in which case, caster level derived from Base Attack Bonus overlaps (does not stack with) the rest.

Why? Because the default is that they don't stack, and Master Spellthief only stacks class levels when determining caster level. It does not stack other things which may increase caster level.

[dextercorvia]

Abjurant Champion cannot progress Chameleon caster levels, at least, not the way you have it.




So chameleon can't qualify you for AbChamp.



Chameleon can't qualify for Abjurant Champion, but nothing in your quote prevents it from being advanced by Abjurant Champion, so long as the requirements are met by other class abilities or feats.


Your whole argument depends on how you interpret master spellthief, I suggest you reread the feat:

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells"

and abjurant champion's martial arcanist ability

"your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus"

is master spellthief an arcane spellcasting class? yes it is
does it benefit from martial arcanist? again yes

Thus the following happens: I cast a chameleon spell (at 2x my chameleon level), as I do so I am casting an arcane spell, master spellthief is triggered and my caster levels are combined

final result = 40 caster levels for any chameleon arcane spell

This is incorrect. You can apply the effects in either order, but neither way do they come you your conclusion.

Master Spellthief recalculates your CL by setting it based on a combination of class levels -- if you perform any CL boost before applying Master Spellthief it is lost.

Similarly Martial Arcanist recalculates your CL by setting it to your BAB -- if you perform an CL boost before applying Marital Arcanist, it is lost.

[Soranar]

Chameleon can't qualify for Abjurant Champion, but nothing in your quote prevents it from being advanced by Abjurant Champion, so long as the requirements are met by other class abilities or feats.



This is incorrect. You can apply the effects in either order, but neither way do they come you your conclusion.

Master Spellthief recalculates your CL by setting it based on a combination of class levels -- if you perform any CL boost before applying Master Spellthief it is lost.

Similarly Martial Arcanist recalculates your CL by setting it to your BAB -- if you perform an CL boost before applying Marital Arcanist, it is lost.

Are you quoting a rulebook I'm unaware of or something? Because whenever two effects affect the same action you apply them in the order most beneficial to you, that's in the rulebook.

[dextercorvia]

Are you quoting a rulebook I'm unaware of or something? Because whenever two effects affect the same action you apply them in the order most beneficial to you, that's in the rulebook.

Actually it isn't in the rulebook, but it is generally accepted. Apply them in the most beneficial order:

Define CL:=BAB;
Define CL:=Sum(Arcane spellcasting class levels);

or

Define CL:=Sum(Arcane spellcasting class levels);
Define CL:=BAB;

Notice what is happening there? Neither ability refers to the other, therefore when you apply the second one it overwrites the first. Neither Martial Arcanist nor Master Spellthief use your CL in the calculation. One uses BAB, and the other uses class levels.

[limejuicepowder]

Chameleon can only be taken by humans or doppelgangers. Am I missing something in your build that allows you take chameleon, or are you just ignoring it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Illuminians count as humans IIRC.

[dextercorvia]

Illuminians count as humans IIRC.

Technically they don't for this. Able learner is a Racial feat, which means it can only be taken by characters that have Race: Human or Chameleon. Illumians have Race: Illumian, Subtype: Human. If something just says that you have to be human that counts, but Racial feats specifically require the Race to match.

Most people ignore this distinction though. I've even read posts by the some of the giants of optimization refer to Illumians as a Human subrace, but they are never described as such in print.

[Network]

There's a feat for that, but then you'll need to take a flaw to have Able learner.

The krau sigil is in all way similar to the practiced spellcaster feat. They do stack, but as both have a limitation, they must be added at the end, since the bonuses are limited to your character level.

[dextercorvia]

There's a feat for that, but then you'll need to take a flaw to have Able learner.

The krau sigil is in all way similar to the practiced spellcaster feat. They do stack, but as both have a limitation, they must be added at the end, since the bonuses are limited to your character level.

Actually the feat doesn't help either -- it only gives you the subtype, not the race.

[*.*.*.*]

Race: Human or Chameleon.

I now want to play an Anthropomorphic Chameleon Chameleon.

[Network]

Actually the feat doesn't help either -- it only gives you the subtype, not the race.

But if we read the variant two pages before, we see :
At the DM’s discretion, half-human and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, [...]

Reading this, I think the feat should also let you qualify. Isn't the question in any official FAQ yet?

[dextercorvia]

But if we read the variant two pages before, we see :

Reading this, I think the feat should also let you qualify. Isn't the question in any official FAQ yet?

First, that is a variant. And second, it would if the feat or prestige class required the human subtype. On the same page...


Feats marked with the [Racial] tag require the character to
be of a specific race in order to select the feat.

I don't usually call it out on a thread like this. It isn't unusual for folks to houserule it that way (or not even realize they are using a houserule). But someone brought it up.

[candycorn]

First, that is a variant. And second, it would if the feat or prestige class required the human subtype. On the same page...


You're right. "At the DM’s discretion, half-human and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype)." is the variant.

However, "This means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class..." is the explanation of the variant's ramifications, not the variant itself.

If I say, "you can fill your tank with gas. This means that you'll be able to drive."

That should not be construed as "if someone else has a car with a tankful of gas, they cannot drive unless you have filled yours."

Yet, that is how you interpret it.

This is a significant way to see design intent. Ignoring that would be... Less than ideal.

[dextercorvia]

You're right. "At the DM’s discretion, half-human and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype)." is the variant.

However, "This means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class..." is the explanation of the variant's ramifications, not the variant itself.

If I say, "you can fill your tank with gas. This means that you'll be able to drive."

That should not be construed as "if someone else has a car with a tankful of gas, they cannot drive unless you have filled yours."

Yet, that is how you interpret it.

This is a significant way to see design intent. Ignoring that would be... Less than ideal.

I'm not sure how your metaphor applies. Having the human subtype is not the same as having Race: Human. If you have the human subtype, then you would qualify for requirements of Subtype:Human.

"You can fill your tank with gas. This means that you'll be able to drive ." (the implication here is that you are able to drive your car that you filled with gas -- not any other car)

You seem to be reading it as "If you fill your car up with gas, then you will be able to drive a similar car."