Engaging the healer

[Greyfeld85]

I'm running a PBP game, and one of my players is pretty much dedicated to healing/buffing with a little bit of face work. He's currently Cloistered Cleric 4/Warlock 1 and plans to go Eldritch Disciple with Healing Blast.

Needless to say, in combat, he's not especially threatening.

A lot of the campaign is going to take place in a tower, where his face skills are going to be pretty much useless, and the group is going to run into a lot of combat encounters.

What's the best way to make him useful in combat, using his character's abilities? Should I just ramp up the difficulty of fights so that there's a reason for him to run back and forth healing people?

[Honest Tiefling]

Even if he doesn't hurt the monsters, a smart one may decide to run up to him to eat his face or wreck his day. I assume that if he makes combat a breeze, SOMEONE would notice the healbot and decide to attack him.

If you do this plan, possibly make sure the party has the ability to move in to protect him, or to move him out of the way first.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You could have him swarmed by low-HD undead?

His healing should take care of them rather handily.

[Grail]

My intelligent enemies always target healers first. No matter where they are. It's easier to fight the warriors in the party if you only have to go through their HP once rather than 2 or 3 times. So yeah, get something up in his face, force him to heal himself or buff himself or run and hide.

He probably won't like it, but conversely he'll probably get bored quick enough if he is don't nothing but casting heal after heal and just running through his combat buffs like a macro.

[Psyren]

Is he having fun? If so, you don't need to do anything.

If he's not, suggest that he pick up Zen Archery (and a bow) until his Eldritch Blast is in better shape. That will give him a way to contribute between heals.

EDIT: Also, what are his domains? Spontaneous Domain casting will give him an efficient way to convert his unneeded buffs/heals into offense.

[Greyfeld85]

Is he having fun? If so, you don't need to do anything.

If he's not, suggest that he pick up Zen Archery (and a bow) until his Eldritch Blast is in better shape. That will give him a way to contribute between heals.

EDIT: Also, what are his domains? Spontaneous Domain casting will give him an efficient way to convert his unneeded buffs/heals into offense.

Most of his combat actions have involved putzing away with his little 1d6 eldritch blast, but there hasn't really been a lot of combat encounters yet. My players have been in all of 4 combats in total. He's gone and healed people a couple times, but when he's not healing... yeah.

So that's why I want to adjust future combat encounters to sort of get him more involved. Get him to do more than fire away for jack-all damage round after round. Since he's not built for offense, I'm looking for suggestions on how to engage him in other ways. Does that make sense?

[Grail]

Oh, and if he's a face character, write up at least a couple encounters where his skills will be useful. Don't make that aspect of his character irrelevant. It's a PbP, it's easier than a normal PnP game to engage these characters, because there's a lot of time to prep, and you can't really get surprised with actions because you know - you've got time to respond.

Engage him on the grounds that he wants to be engaged.

[Honest Tiefling]

Could run into not just monsters that can be diplomized (Such as being bribed to go away, for instance) but people. If the tower is one with dungeons, maybe deal with prisoners? Or even rival adventurers, to bluff them into thinking it is too dangerous, or to help out, but with a reduced share?

[Psyren]

Most of his combat actions have involved putzing away with his little 1d6 eldritch blast, but there hasn't really been a lot of combat encounters yet. My players have been in all of 4 combats in total. He's gone and healed people a couple times, but when he's not healing... yeah.

So that's why I want to adjust future combat encounters to sort of get him more involved. Get him to do more than fire away for jack-all damage round after round. Since he's not built for offense, I'm looking for suggestions on how to engage him in other ways. Does that make sense?

Yes, but at the same time I think you should get an idea of how bad the problem really is before trying to fix it.

Also, what domains does he have? Domain choice can have a lot of effect on cleric's casting ability.

[Greyfeld85]

Oh, and if he's a face character, write up at least a couple encounters where his skills will be useful. Don't make that aspect of his character irrelevant. It's a PbP, it's easier than a normal PnP game to engage these characters, because there's a lot of time to prep, and you can't really get surprised with actions because you know - you've got time to respond.

Engage him on the grounds that he wants to be engaged.


Could run into not just monsters that can be diplomized (Such as being bribed to go away, for instance) but people. If the tower is one with dungeons, maybe deal with prisoners? Or even rival adventurers, to bluff them into thinking it is too dangerous, or to help out, but with a reduced share?

There aren't people in this tower. The very nature of the entire campaign means that there can't be people in this tower. At least not in the traditional sense. I might toss them against a dryad and a lich at some point (not at the same time), and there will be opportunities to leave the tower. But inside the tower itself, it's going to be environmental hazards, traps, puzzles, and combat encounters against monsters.

My point is that I want to engage this player more in combat. Since healers are generally accepted as "unnecessary" for combat scenarios, I'm asking for help in making him necessary.


Yes, but at the same time I think you should get an idea of how bad the problem really is before trying to fix it.

Also, what domains does he have? Domain choice can have a lot of effect on cleric's casting ability.

If I didn't think it was a problem, I wouldn't be asking help in fixing it. I'm trying to figure out how to engage my player in future encounters so it doesn't BECOME a problem.

Anyway, he has the Knowledge, Spell, and Pleasure domains. He follows Hanali Celanil, but I allowed him the Spell domain because it fit with his character background.

[Grail]

My point is that I want to engage this player more in combat. Since healers are generally accepted as "unnecessary" for combat scenarios, I'm asking for help in making him necessary.


Learn how to run bleeding-edge combats then. Healers are very much necessary in combat situations. If they aren't, then the combat hasn't been threatening enough.

Have enemies concentrate fire on certain PC's in the party, bring them down in HP very quickly. Have them use spells or effects that require the healer to use other healing spells such as Restoration or Remove XXXX.

Have your own enemies use healing, so that they last longer.

If he is doing buffs before combat, have those buffs dispelled. Make him recast them, or failing that, have the party make do without them and thus need the healing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why exactly is a Cloistered Cleric 4 not threatening?

Cloistered Cleric 4 can easily be one of the most badass melee or ranged characters in the game...

Talk to him about retraining some of his options, and using useful combat spells, and retraining some feats and domains and devotions and stuff...

[Cespenar]

You can hint the player to utilize those environmental hazards and traps you have mentioned in the party's favor. He can draw a goblin off to a trap your group already have bypassed, jump over it, and let the goblin get impaled by it. He can flip off a table or cut some chandelier (or any other such cliches) and give a brief 1-round advantage to his fellow companions where otherwise the enemies' reinforcements would close in and flank them. Etc. You can find similar examples in most action movies.

Just be descriptive and award the player's creativity. If he has some.

[Psyren]

My point is that I want to engage this player more in combat. Since healers are generally accepted as "unnecessary" for combat scenarios, I'm asking for help in making him necessary.

The easy answer, as others have said, is to make the encounters harder, i.e. to make healing more of a necessity. Having a dedicated healer who can use his actions to keep everyone else up then becomes a benefit, or even a necessity for the others.

But this only solves your problem if the player is truly happy with just healing (see below.)



If I didn't think it was a problem, I wouldn't be asking help in fixing it. I'm trying to figure out how to engage my player in future encounters so it doesn't BECOME a problem.

I understand this; my point is that to solve a problem, you must first understand it. Is it that the player enjoys healing and wants to do more of it, in more ways? Or is it that he wants to heal, but wants to contribute to combat in other ways as well?

Your solution can end up very different depending on which of these is the problem. If it's the first, making the encounters harder so he needs to heal everyone more should make him happy. If it's the second, forcing him to heal more can actually be detrimental, as the moment he stops healing to do anything else in the fight (e.g. use an invocation), someone on the front line could end up in the negatives.

[Greyfeld85]

Why exactly is a Cloistered Cleric 4 not threatening?

Cloistered Cleric 4 can easily be one of the most badass melee or ranged characters in the game...

Talk to him about retraining some of his options, and using useful combat spells, and retraining some feats and domains and devotions and stuff...


The easy answer, as others have said, is to make the encounters harder, i.e. to make healing more of a necessity. Having a dedicated healer who can use his actions to keep everyone else up then becomes a benefit, or even a necessity for the others.

But this only solves your problem if the player is truly happy with just healing (see below.)

This player created a healing-centric character and wants to continue to play his character as such. I'm not going to tell him to play something different.


I understand this; my point is that to solve a problem, you must first understand it. Is it that the player enjoys healing and wants to do more of it, in more ways? Or is it that he wants to heal, but wants to contribute to combat in other ways as well?

Your solution can end up very different depending on which of these is the problem. If it's the first, making the encounters harder so he needs to heal everyone more should make him happy. If it's the second, forcing him to heal more can actually be detrimental, as the moment he stops healing to do anything else in the fight (e.g. use an invocation), someone on the front line could end up in the negatives.

You're right. I apologize for my misunderstanding. I'll talk to him and see what he has to say about it.

[Psyren]

This player created a healing-centric character and wants to continue to play his character as such. I'm not going to tell him to play something different.

I'm not sure why you included my quote with this response, as I didn't ask you to do anything like that :smalltongue:

[Greyfeld85]

I asked him, and his response was:

"The current plan for Aidlian is for him to go to the front lines and spam Total Defense. If anyone drops below 50 percent during combat, he'll give them a Touch of Healing. Once combat is over, he'll use Lessor Vigor if it seems justified. "

The thing is, I asked him if he'd like a more offensive role in combat (and then just heal when out of combat), or if he'd like a more proactive healing role, and he didn't really seem interested in either one.

I'm trying to get more information out of him about what he wants to do in combat, but if he doesn't give me something to work with, I don't know what I'm going to do with him.

He showed interest in making use out of his "whip dagger" weapon, but he also knows that he isn't built to really make any sort of use out of it (lack of BAB, low strength, no weapon finesse, etc etc).

To be completely honest, this player isn't very good with the whole "system mastery" thing. He sort of latches onto one thing that he thinks looks cool and loses sight of his overall build on a regular basis. He built his character to heal, then during their last level-up was wanting to try to find a way to incorporate melee into his build, then suddenly decided he wanted to buy armor and try to tank out damage... he's sort of all over the place, depending on what splat he's reading at the time.

[Icewraith]

See if you can find spells that heal and have offensive or defensive benefits. Alternatively, try and wring SOMETHING useful from his actions and see if he'll at least aid another instead of spamming total defense.

Warlock offense is terrbile as it is, houserule in an ability that lets him heal an ally within close range for the amount of damage dealt to one opponent (aoe damage blast shapes still heal one ally to keep it simple and not suddenly OP, or you could do something else like heals half of the spell damage roll to all allies within 20 feet). You could also tack a couple d6es onto his eldritch blast, especially since he's behind-curve anyways.

I'm completely AFB so I don't know if this capability already exists, but if your player wants to heal and isn't contributing unless he can heal, get him to contribute and heal!

[Psyren]

Play it by ear, I say. Run some combats, let him do his thing, and see if he's enjoying himself or not.

Just remind him that maintaining Total Defense is a standard action, so anytime he stops to cast a spell his defenses will drop for that round. (But there are buffs, like Sanctuary, and PrCs like Combat Medic to make this tactic easier.) But do let him shine by letting some monsters attack him while his defenses are up, presumably missing spectacularly.

If you want to shake him up occasionally, focus-firing one PC should do the trick - His healing touch will be unlikely to keep someone up under an assault like that, so he'll have to burn something more substantial while the party reacts.

Summons are also a nice suggestion. He can summon something at the start of a fight (when healing is unlikely to be needed), leave his Cleric on total defense autopilot/healbot as normal, and pilot the summon to do more direct things like charging and grappling if he wants.

[erikun]

The best way to engage the healer is to figure out why they're playing a healer. If they're playing one because they like hitting opponents with their consistently-good-HP party, then give them lots of opportunities to keep their party healthy. If they're playing one so they can patch people up after fights easily, then let him have fun in combat and allow him to patch people up afterwards.


"The current plan for Aidlian is for him to go to the front lines and spam Total Defense. If anyone drops below 50 percent during combat, he'll give them a Touch of Healing. Once combat is over, he'll use Lessor Vigor if it seems justified. "

[...]

He showed interest in making use out of his "whip dagger" weapon, but he also knows that he isn't built to really make any sort of use out of it (lack of BAB, low strength, no weapon finesse, etc etc).
So it sounds like he's looking at a somewhat defensive/passive character - who distracts enemies and doesn't get hurt much, and can patch people up afterwards.

Look for some good options to grant him good AC and other defenses. Get monsters to attack him if he goes dancing up on the front lines, to show off that good AC.

I'd say re-write Zen Archery to allow him to use it for Eldrich Blast and his Whip Dagger, and try to get him the Improved Disarm / Trip feats. He still won't be succeeding much with his likely low strength, but knocking opponents down occasionally while blocking most attacks and healing when needed is probably what he's looking to do.

You might also want to be more direct with him. Ask him outright if he's trying to play a defensive pacifist healer, or just trying to optimize healing to some extent, or if he's just looking around at interesting options. What to offer him will depend on what he's looking for.

[Greyfeld85]

Ok, so I was as direct as possible with him. I asked him:


Basically, what I'm looking for is to figure out exactly what sort of role you want to play in combat. I need to know what you actually enjoy during combat, what you want Aidlian to be, and how you would most prefer to contribute during combat encounters.

And his reply was:


When Aidlian takes Summon Swarm at lvl 6, he'll probably be spamming that in combat to keep ranged/casters bogged down until someone needs heals/buffs. If we get to level 10, Aidlian will often Charm enemies. So I guess crowd control?

Until then, Aidlian will just be soaking up damage like you say.

He obviously has no idea what it is he wants to do. Suggestions?

[aeauseth]

Mechanic wise you could house rule the Practiced Invoker (http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Practiced_Invoker) feat, which may encourage him to be more offensive. Magic Item Compendium has Warlock items to help out as well.

Consider a few undead encuonters so he can use his turn undead ability.

The player seems happy being a healer, but his response suggests that he may not see the offensive possibilities his character can unleash.

[Xavier Lazarus]

I can't help but think you are making too big of a deal out of this. He explains some of his ideas for his character in the future to you (Crowd Control) and then you turn around and say he has no idea.

You are unwilling to change the tower to include any major opportunities for him to face, which is fine (it's your Campaign), so you may just have to accept that his two main character concepts will not (in your opinion) be useful.

I have noticed a large percentage of this forum believes that healing in combat/playing a healer is useless and a waste of time. In my personal experience the presence of a dedicated healer makes for much more interesting and varied combats as the DM can throw much more dangerous enemies at the party without worry of TPK.

I play a high level Cleric/Radiant Servant and pretty much all I do is Healing and Buffing in combat. I find this plenty entertaining and I've never felt the need to have a major offensive role.

Some people just want to have a mainly support role when it comes to combat (granted I've played plenty of offensive characters before).

I agree with what's been said above, if you want him to contribute in combat, throw some undead at him every now and then.

[only1doug]

Perhaps a custom magic item could be found by the party, adds 1d6 damage type to eldritch blast and a blast shape of some kind. Make the item a rod and you can have the attack emit from it.


Pick how much extra damage (if any) whether it will apply a blast type or shape (or not), choose whether additional types or shapes can also be applied when using it, choose how frequently it can be used, Find a description that matches the effect.


E.g.

Least Crimson DracoBlast Rod:
This 2' lond rod crimson scaled rod ends with the head of a red dragon. When an eldritch blast is channelled through the rod it will add 1d6 damage to the eldritch blast and create a 30' cone of fire.
This ability cannot be used with other Blast Invocations.

Least Rod of Angelic smiting:
This pristine white rod shines gently with an inner light.
When an eldritch balst is channelled through the rod it is transformed into a blast that is intolerable by demons and devils.
(The eldritch blast type is converted to Holy and Evil outsiders take an additional 1d6 damage from the eldritch blast, non evil outsiders take no damage from this blast).
Blast shape invocations may be applied normally but blast type Invocations may not be applied.

etc.


You can make these as either limited uses / day, charged items or unlimited items.

I'd probably go with 10 charges / day and an increase to damage if they burn multiple charges:
1 charge for 1d6 extra,
3 charges for 2d6,
6 charges for 3d6,
10 charges for 4d6.

[Greyfeld85]

I can't help but think you are making too big of a deal out of this. He explains some of his ideas for his character in the future to you (Crowd Control) and then you turn around and say he has no idea.

He's playing a cleric/warlock/eldritch disciple, built heavily toward healing. In the middle of leveling, he decides he wants to tank. Then, he suddenly changes and decides he might want to play with crowd control.

"He has no idea what he wants" sounds pretty damned accurate to me.


I have noticed a large percentage of this forum believes that healing in combat/playing a healer is useless and a waste of time. In my personal experience the presence of a dedicated healer makes for much more interesting and varied combats as the DM can throw much more dangerous enemies at the party without worry of TPK.

That's what this thread is for, to get people to help me figure out how to properly engage and challenge a group with a dedicated healer. I've said this a handful of times already. I don't know how to make it any clearer.


I agree with what's been said above, if you want him to contribute in combat, throw some undead at him every now and then.

There will be a section of the tower with undead, but I can't just throw undead at the party at random intervals. This isn't some sandbox adventure where I can get away with just throwing random crap at my group and see what sticks.

And even if it were, I can't have them fight undead every time. I need suggestions on how to make combat encounters engaging for the healer by making him... you know... HEAL.

[hoverfrog]

Some people just don't like combat much. I mean you can get hurt standing in the front line with those swords and axes whizzing by. I prefer to play spellcasters and staying out of combat is my first rule. Popping an Eldritch Blast into the fight is about as effective as using a crossbow so he is contributing just as much.

How is his Bluff skill? He could always distract enemies be feinting.

If he is in the front line then he could Aid Another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm). Making an attack roll against AC 10 is an awful lot easier that trying to bash the plate armoured warrior in front of you. A +2 to hit from the muscled meat shield that you adventure with might be more effective than your own feeble blow. Moreso when you've buffed the dumb meat shield with a Bull's Strength first.

Honestly though avoiding combat seems to me to just be the sensible course of action.

[Yora]

In most cases, a healer can not heal damage as fast as the enemies deal it and it's better to have an enemy stop dealing damage one or two rounds earlier than to try to heal the damage he dealt in those two rounds.

However, there is third option, which is to prevent the allies from being harmed by the enemies attacks. I think this is where a healer character can really shine.
Instead of just pouring out cure spells, there are many spells that keep your allies healthy without directly attacking the enemies. As every good doctor will tell you, the best way to restore health is to preserve health! :smallamused:

Endure Elements: Protects your more frail allies in deserts, volcanic caves, blizards, and so on. May not happen often, but if you are the DM, you can make it happen. :smallwink:
Hide from Undead: Might not be easy to make your players get the hint, but with this spell a cleric can guide the party through hordes of undead without being attacked.
Protection from Evil: What a marvelous spell.
Remove Fear: Never go to creepy places without it.
Sanctuary: Only works on yourself, but this spell is made to allow you to throw out support spells without becomming a target.
Delay Poison: Can make the difference between making it back out of the dungeon or not.
Hold Person: My favorite spell. Great to allow your allies to slaughter the helpless enemy. But can also be used very effectively to capture someone alive and unharmed.
Remove Paralysis: To prevent just that from happening to your allies.
Resist Energy: You should have always some additional scrolls of it with you. When you know an elemental monster is comming, this can change everything!
Lesser Restoration: You can spontaneously cast cure spells, but this is possibly the most important spell for healers to have prepared. Poisons, negative energy, and so on. This one saves lives!
Shield Other: 2nd level, but the ultimate silent supporter in the background spell. Combine it with sanctuary and you can make your warrior buddy seemingly invincible!
Bestow Curse: Yes, it's necromancy and has a malicious name, but this one can be used to restrain dangerous people. If you want to capture a berserker who breaks all chains and bars, or a sorcerer who messes with peoples heads, -6 to Strength or Charisma can make a big difference.
Dispel Magic: No, THIS is my favorite spell! :smallbiggrin: There is no spell more powerful than one that can deny enemies to use their own. And with spell slots, this can often mean that this is not just a short delay, but actually destroys the enemies tactic for the rest of the day.
Magic Circle: Protection from evil for everyone for at least 50 minutes or more. This is great!

[Ernir]

The player suffers from relative lack of system mastery, and as a result of that, his build lacks cohesion.
And that is something you can't really fix as a PbP DM. He needs to do it himself.

[Khedrac]

If you are willing to deal with your frustration suggest he goes Combat Medic.
Then he can have fun by tossing low powered group heals (e.g. Healing Lorecall) with the Sanctuary Healing Kicker, after delaying to just before the largest group of enemies, and watching them having to make will saves to attack the party (yes they can use AoEs, but do they know that? Also the save is keyed to the attack so if they fail it they have used that attack and simply have iteratives or a move action left to do other things).
Our healer used to wind the DM up no end with that one. :)

[ClockShock]

An alternative would be to forget about the rules, and look into how encounters are designed.

How creative is the player? Maybe there is scenery to interact with that will change the layout of the fight. If it's going to be a standard action to operate the machinery that blocks off an escape route for the enemy, it might as well be the guy who won't be killing anyone anyway.

The player may want more things to do in combat, but not at the cost of altering his build.