Pathfinder Only - Rogue Build Help

[Honest Tiefling]

I made a tiefling rogue for a campaign, and since there were a lot of other people I wasn't worried about making him terribly efficient. Also, I was pretty sure that the character would die, since we were not making much progress on stopping that whole demon taking over the world business.

Currently, the character is an INT/DEX rogue with Dodge, the weapon finesse talent. I was planning on dipping into Shadowdancer to get HIPS, but my DM ruled that characters struck by a stealthed character via HIPS can do sneak attack, but does not make enemies flat footed.

The DM might let me do the scout archetype, (He bought the Advanced Player's guide midway, so people aren't familiar with it so he's allowing a bit of rebuilding) so then I might take shadowdancer to 2nd level to get uncanny dodge back, and have ways of generating sneak attack, either by moving or sneaking.

I currently do not have UMD, since when I made him someone else had it. I wonder if I should reassign skill points to pick it up, but my character has 8 charisma.

I was also thinking of going into dirty trick, to try to debuff a single monster for the barbarian to hit harder. She is my only guaranteed party member, and I am unsure if others will join or what they will be. I don't need a combat monster, I just need a character with some out of combat skills who can do something to help the party out in combat. Rather a low-op campaign.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[Larpus]

First, is Ultimate Magic available?

With a high Int you're quite the candidate for switching to Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) (Vivisectionist), who would have greater use of that Int while still progressing your sneak attack. There are many benefits, physical buff for 10min/level (multiple times per day if you have time to prepare a new dose), discoveries which are overall better than rogue talents, fee Int to damage with thrown weapons, poison use and buff-based half-caster progression (with disguise self and invisibility on the list).

If UM is out...well, it's still a great class, except you get bombs instead of sneak attack, which do great damage (same progression as sneak attack + Int) and can be modded to mimic spells.

Either way, to the specific questions at hand:

Just so we're clear: while using HIPS you're guaranteed to do sneak attack damage even though the target is not flat-footed and doesn't lose the Dex to AC? If that's it, I don't see anything wrong with that, while the flatfooted sometimes help you hit, with a decent enough Str or Dex it won't matter much. All that said, at least 7 out of 10 sneak attacks will be from flanking, not hiding.

The Scout archetype, as far as I can tell, is an ok archetype. Sure, it potentially increases the amount of sneak attacks in a given battle, it does carry the penalty that only the first attack will be an sneak attack (supposing you even manage to get pounce and be able to move and attack more than once), being pretty meh overall, and even if you're a ranged Rogue who can use it with Manyshot, you'd need pounce, which is tricky to get.

Even so, just getting into flanking position is so dirty easy that it's usually a no issue. Something else such as Knife Master (if Ultimate Combat is available) or Swashbuckler (for a better weapon proficiency and a bonus to guarantee you get into flanking position without suffering attacks of opportunity) should serve you better.

Since you're in a low-op campaign, I believe you're not looking into doing any UMD shenanigans, still, it's a great way to "fill-in" for a caster type when none is available, such as a Cure Light Wounds wand for out-of-combat healing when there's no divine caster around.

Your low Cha won't be that big of an issue, it only means it'll take a bit longer to get your mileage out of the skill as ranks in a skill are vastly superior starting at level 5 or so than ability bonuses.

Dirty Trick is a trap, even in a low-op game it does too little for the cost of a feat and actions in combat. The best way to help your Barbarian pal is to increase her opportunity for damage output or decrease enemies' backlash, the former can be done with feats such as Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) (if available, and you need a high crit weapon such as rapier or falchion) and the latter can be done with combat maneuvers (such as trip or disarm if you fight many humanoids) combined with the Agile Maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat) feat.

And I'll just mention because it should make you wonder at some point: feint is also not worth it. Been there, done that, it would've been much easier to just attack what the Barbarian was attacking and then moved to a new target.

Remember: Rogue is an opportunist, not an open-chested combatant, so you never fly into battle alone, you let a teammate fly into battle and, when no one is looking, go to that opponent and stab him right in the pancreas.

[Lycar]

Just some things to remember: Getting into a flanking position is no longer trivial since you have to roll your Acrobatics (formerly Tumble) check against the opposing CMD. And that one scales.

Dirty Trick isn't that bad actually, but only once you can get the Greater version. Not before level 8 or 9 for a Rogue. Until then, however, it is unlikely that your effect will last longer then a turn. Reducing your foe to a standard action is usually not so terribly effective on lower levels.

As for getting sneak attacks going, consider the Gang Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) feat. Needs Combat Expertise and two allies to work but means you no longer have to actually flank an enemy.

And if the buddies you fight side-by-side with even have such things as Saving Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/saving-shield-combat) going, your life as a backstabbing rogue just got a lot safer. :smallwink:

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd assumed feint would be an issue, because it is a standard action and it takes a penalty for non-humaniods.

Sadly, the party so far consists purely of me and Ms. Smashalot, so I might refrain from teamwork feats. Anyone else joining may not be melee, since my PC is currently a melee rogue and she is...Well, Ms. Smashalot. Saving Shield looks awesome, but Ms. Smashalot intends to use a greatsword. (Which is from what I can tell, a good tactic for barbs). Should we be forced to retire or these PCs die, I'll look into it.

I'll look into Alchemist, through I wonder if continuing to do rogue can be viable? I sorta like the swashbucklery type (Through not the actual archetype, I think I should at least keep trapfinding). I assume AT is as icky as ever, even if I focus on buffing the barbarian. I wonder if there is a way to do rogue/vivisectionist, since my PC has already taken 2 rogue levels.

[Lycar]

Uh well, Improved Feint turns it into a move action. And until level 8 you won't have any extra attacks to worry about unless you go into Two-Weapon fighting.

On the other hand, if you do go for feinting, Greater Feint makes the enemy lose his Dex bonus until the beginning of your next turn.

That is to say, everybody else gets to hack at a de-Dex'd enemy. So your Barbarian buddy has an easier time bringing home those iterative attacks for example. Or those Dazing Assaults (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazing-assault-combat), although that is level 11+.

The question is, do you want to do a lot of damage yourself or are you happy enough to help your burly, beefy warrior friends out?

[Honest Tiefling]

The latter is fine. SA is good, but barbarian to the face seems to be better. Really, the character is a skill monkey, and I just need a trick for combat so I don't end up being useless when we inevitably piss someone off. (Guess who ELSE has 8 charisma?)

[DrDeth]

Currently, the character is an INT/DEX rogue with Dodge, the weapon finesse talent. I was planning on dipping into Shadowdancer to get HIPS, but my DM ruled that characters struck by a stealthed character via HIPS can do sneak attack, but does not make enemies flat footed.!

He's being generous, but using RAI. In PF RAW, HiPS does not make your foe lose his dex. Only invisibility does. Now, there's a blog with a suggested rule set that brings in a lesser condition called "hidden" but they seemed to have dropped that idea.

That being said- HiPS does allow you to move around to that perfect flank, all without any AoO.

[Honest Tiefling]

HIPS seems pretty good for that purpose and the purpose of running away, even if it doesn't make people lose their DEX to AC.

Through I think I'll suggest calling the condition 'hidden' to the DM, so we can be clear on when I am invisible and when I'm just being a shadowdancer.

[Larpus]

I'll look into Alchemist, through I wonder if continuing to do rogue can be viable? I sorta like the swashbucklery type (Through not the actual archetype, I think I should at least keep trapfinding). I assume AT is as icky as ever, even if I focus on buffing the barbarian. I wonder if there is a way to do rogue/vivisectionist, since my PC has already taken 2 rogue levels.
It's definitely doable, my personal view is that one of the best Rogue builds (and a pretty respectable Alchemist build too) is Rogue 2/Alchemist X, so you get Evasion and rogue talents. Trapfinding is a nice bonus, but from personal experience, unless your DM is a trap addict, is not something that will come into play too often, so I don't really consider it a loss.

Also, if you do end up going that route, take a look at the Feral Mutagen discovery which would allow you to make 3 sneak attacks per round (you should really consider it if you planned on Two Weapon Fighting, you can also apply Weapon Finesse to natural weapons) and if you're not interested in poisons in any way (there is a discovery that actually makes them usable, making them stick to your weapon for Int strikes) you can grab the Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) (you get flight and pounce while mutated), Grenadier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/grenadier) (a martial weapon proficiency and ability to empower your weapon with alchemical items) or Internal Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/internal-alchemist) (who gets Uncanny Dodge at 6th level as it was one of your original concerns).

Also, the buffing spell list is not your standard "wizard buffing" as Alchemists cast spells in a potion-like fashion, making them able to pass around buffs that have a range of personal, so among other things, you can buff your Barbarian friend with Monstrous Physique (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/monstrous-physique-i) or other polymorph spells.