need help with 3.X monk build

[dao.silverman]

I'm trying to build a monk for my campaigne this is her initial write up

Snake shen monk
femail poision dusk lizard folk
BIO
born human to a trib living along side a tribe of lizardfolk that have friendly relation shipo with “wild” humans this girl underwent the adulthood ritual scaring of her skin but by then end had turned into a lizard folk she now starts the campaing as. She was taken in by the lizard folk and trained in a secret monk academy in the art of snake strike martal arts after transformation. Being older and smaller she was tormented by her fellow calss mates but it only made her try harder. She developed a deep sence of nonvilance during her days in the acadamy and so only does subdual dammage unless wearing her ritual killing mask, thus she was trained killing by lizardfolk and humanitarianism by her human parents. She is now accepted by both tribes as a full sister tho she usually lives with the lizard folk. She is vegitarian mutch to the dismay of her adopted lizard trib.
TRIBAL HISTORY
the tribs developed a working relationship many years ago in witch every 20 years one egg is given to the humans to raise and one baby iis given to the lizards to raise both babys are then “given” to the next ruler of the tribe as mates to secure the friendly relations with the other tribe.

I'm going for an old school preasure point monk, she doesn't want to really hurt anyone just stop them from hurting others(unless she puts on her mask, think bleach hollow mask). I'm thinking of making her a monk/ghost faced killer/ snake shen mix but am unsure on how to do this fully. Any help would be great, directions to the right place will be taken humbly, and please be a little gental.

P.S. :smalleek: Spelling Does Not Count

[WeeFreeMen]

I'm sorry if this is a silly question, but is Pathfinder out of the question?

Also, by Pressure Point monk, are you being literal?
Pressure Point Strike from Dragon Magazine allows you to shut down Casters for 1d4 rounds when used.
As for "Styles" Serpent style monk seems fitting.. or Way of the Passive Hand.

[dao.silverman]

I'm running in 3.5 but I have been know to let pathfinder in if I think its not unbalancing.
Its literal and figurative depending on level. At low levels she will strike pressure points as the way she does damage(no difference from the standard monk just style) and at higher levels I'm using the pressure point system from QM. Do you remember the DM#.

[Zale]

inb4swordsage?

[Gavinfoxx]

What in the heck is a Snake Shen?? Where did you find that?

What do you mean by pressure point monk? How is that old school?? What are you talking about??

What is QM?? Is that some 3rd party something??

Also D&D is a game about insane, obscenely wealthy, violent hobos going down into holes, brutally murdering whatever is in there, and taking all of their stuff. Normal, non-violent people do not do that. Does she -- and you both know this??


Can you be much, much, much, much more clear in what the heck you are talking about?

As best as I can figure, it is this:

*I have a player who wants to play a snake-or-lizard-themed, unarmed (as in unarmed strike or natural attack focused), unarmored, precision-based, melee-combat character who incapacitates enemies without actually killing them, who, when she puts on a mask, actually starts using lethal tactics. The mask should have some profound change in her abilities or fighting style as well. How do I do that in D&D 3.PF?

Is that true? Am I missing anything?

[Vizzerdrix]

What in the heck is a Snake Shen?? Where did you find that?

What do you mean by pressure point monk? How is that old school?? What are you talking about??

What is QM?? Is that some 3rd party something??

Also D&D is a game about insane, obscenely wealthy, violent hobos going down into holes, brutally murdering whatever is in there, and taking all of their stuff. Normal, non-violent people do not do that. Does she -- and you both know this??

Am I missing anything?

Snake Shen is a monk PrC found in a Dragon Mag

In many old Kung Fu films, striking a persons pressure points is a way of disabling them.

QM may be another D20 system, but I'm not sure.

Yes it is, but some prefer to play in other ways.

[eggs]

Snake Shen is a 6-level class; it doesn't do much that's notable beyond that; Monk is 2 levels; mixing in a good glob of Factotum, Warblade or a 3-level Swashbuckler dip is usually a good call. The Carmendine Monk feat stacks it up a bit faster.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What is QM?? Is that some 3rd party something??


*checks other post*

...

*facepalms*

You think Pathfinder might be unbalancing, and you allow the Quintessential line? Those books have CHAOS MAGE. And that's just a part of it. Seriously, they made a whole book for druid, now that's showing a lack of balance. Yeah, they make 3.5 look like a well-thought-out system that wasn't rushed at all.

As for the pressure points, chi-blockers. Although they're not exactly "old school", considering anyone who's watched AtlA or LoK knows about them.

[Mjollnir075]

For a mechanical use for the mask, if you feel up to the pre-reqs, the Master of Masks from Complete Scoundrel has the Assassin mask, which gives you sneak attack when you wear it.

I wouldn't condone the use of it for this build, from an optimization standpoint, but it kind of fits what you are looking for.

In Pathfinder, they added a few monk styles and a few archetypes which may be worth checking out. I most certainly wouldn't call them unbalanced.

Other then that? Unarmed Swordsage..

[eggs]

Looking at Quintessential Monk, those pressure points attacks are pretty awful. Throat's the only one I could ever imagine using (and even then, only if with Touch attacks, like with Stormguard Warrior)

[Gavinfoxx]

Oohhhh... they were talking about some weird crazy pressure points in the 3rd party book Quintessential Monk, then?

Yea, we don't use most 3rd party here...

Why don't you, yaknow... abandon the idea of playing a Monk in the first place?

You are zoomed in at the 'wow, I want to use this class and this 3rd party set of class features and this particular prestige class' for some reason, rather than thinking, in the broadest possible way, 'how can I use the system to actually achieve my goals for the character?'

In other words, you are coming at this from completely the wrong angle!

ALL you want to do, that I can tell is:

1.) Fight in melee, with competency
2.) Be 'unarmed' when doing so
3.) Be unarmored when doing so
4.) Focus on debuffs and debilitating and disabling enemies
5.) Focus on nonlethal methods
6.) Equip a face slot item to transition from nonlethal to lethal methods
7.) Have something to do with dragons/lizards/snakes etc.; have scales and a tail

Correct? If that is what you do, than focus on -- you know -- doing that, rather than 'being a monk' or using that prestige class or using the quintessential monk or 'pressure points' or whatever.

[dao.silverman]

Ok well I'm sorry for not being spacific enought.
1) I thought monk was best class to start with for what i wanted. A charictor that would in practice know preasure points as a fighting style but not necisarily any more than as flavor ie. "my monk hit these points to deal the extra damage with her hands that others can not"
2) qm was a miss type of DM to mean Dragon Magazine.
3) the mask was flavor then I found the other PrC Ghost faced killer that i thought was interesting
4)I'm sure i missed something but I'll get back to it if you tell me.

[eggs]

Also, digging through QM, Monkey Taunts the Emperor is absolutely insane with a decent bluff score (making Factotum multiclassing even more attractive).

[Giegue]

Yeah. I eco the sentiments here that you can do everything you want and be a "monk" without taking monk levels. However, if you REALLY want to have monk levels, have you considered being a caster as well? In Wuxia and other mediums it is not uncommon to find "martial arts spellcasters" that blend magic and unarmed combat, and one surefire way to salvage a build with monk levels and make it useful is to ALSO take cleric and sacred fist levels. The cleric list gets some nice buffs and with DMM: Persist you'll be scarier in melee then even a unarmed swordsage. Also, since this build dose not like LA or HD I suggest going Dragonborn for it instead of lizardfolk if you want to remain reptilian. You could even choose a dragon/reptile-based deity, if you so choose.

However, if you like the spellcasting martial artist idea and are not married to monk-levels then the Shaman from Oriental adventurers is probably the ideal class for you. It gets bonuses to unarmed fighting while also being a fullcaster who has a whole ton of oriental flavor. It's list is not AS good as the cleric one, but it is still a tier 2 caster and very powerful while having that eastern/martial arts flavor you seem to want.

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually, monk is one of the worst unarmed combatants in D&D. That's why there were soooo mannyyy attempts by WotC to make alternative class features or feats or crazy strong prestige classes or other classes with identical flavor or whatever which can basically function as Monk v2.0.

Generally, if you want to make a competent unarmed combatant, you should have no more than 2 levels of the "Monk" class. Also, remember that anyone can simply choose to take a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage on most types of attacks. Or, with an unarmed attack, most people automatically deal nonlethal damage anyway! What a Monk does is give them the option of also dealing lethal damage without using a weapon. Further, with a Truncheon or Sap, you can even use sneak attack and deal nonlethal damage!

Anyway, here are some links to you. First! The Melee Debuffs handbook:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235631

You should look there and try and figure out what sorts of melee debuffs you want to do, from that!

Second, to show you that you can, indeed, make a martial artist from a class other than monk that can generally do it better than the Monk, an example character sheet of a Monk without the Monk, a Barbarian 10:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=408878

Third, a few handbooks for classes that can do the unarmed thing really well:

The Psychic Warrior: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1542

Look up, in the feats section, "Tashalatora". That is how you combine (say) Monk2/Psychic Warrior 18 to make a "Monk".

The Ardent, which also makes a great Tashalatora:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1319

The basic tome of battle handbook, which contains information on the Swordsage, the most obvious Monk v.2.0 class (see Unarmed Swordsage):

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030

The Swordsage Handbook in particular:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181705

The basic Incarnum handbook, which contains information about another good 'no weapon' class, the Totemist:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=576

And the Totemist handbook in particular:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=583

Finally, the Monk's handbook, for completionist's sake:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2902.0

Note the ubiquity of advice to take obscure alternative class features, to prestige out, to multiclass into a [something] fist, to make up for the issue of the basic Monk class.

[Man on Fire]

Oohhhh... they were talking about some weird crazy pressure points in the 3rd party book Quintessential Monk, then?

Yea, we don't use most 3rd party here...

Why don't you, yaknow... abandon the idea of playing a Monk in the first place?

You are zoomed in at the 'wow, I want to use this class and this 3rd party set of class features and this particular prestige class' for some reason, rather than thinking, in the broadest possible way, 'how can I use the system to actually achieve my goals for the character?'

In other words, you are coming at this from completely the wrong angle!

From what I see you are coming form a completely wrong angle. What is wrong with using third party (or homebrews or Optimized Character Builds from other websites, because I remember your reaction to Ultimate Monk). If OP's DM allows 3rd party and OP want to use 3rd party, then OP will use 3rd party. Second, not everybody likes to think in practical way, some people just like to play classes they think looks cool and there is nothing wrong about it either. Sure, you can optimize something completely different to be better at what player wants to be, but by that logic I shouldn't play meele classes but optimize to be Muscule Wizard and that logic makes me wanna drop the game altogether (first because I don't really like fantasy where every problem is solved by magic and second because if game promises me fun playing meele, then I'm going to play meele and have fun even if I could be better as Muscle Wizard). Sometimes you just want to play class that has it's shortcomings and have fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, if he wants help from these forums, he should probably shy away from most sources of 3rd party... lots of the 3rd party books are really badly balanced.

That isn't to say that there aren't competent homebrew or 3rd party. Lots of people have monk fixes that are balanced!

For example, this remix of the monk is quite popular on these forums:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[dao.silverman]

I realy wanted to stay away from spell casting as much as posable. I might should clarify im probably the dm and this is going to be a major NCP but she is my child so im putting in alot of effort here. My origional thoughts on her is and were she HAS to be able to kill with her hands she just does not like to. She also has been trained when she puts on the mask she must kill. I'm not fully sticking to the lizardfolk thing but when i dreamed her up she had scales so i want to stick to that but maybe it will just be an anomaly and she is still human. I have read some of the repost and will be reading the reast later but they are helping.

[Gavinfoxx]

Swordsage Maneuvers or Psychic Warrior powers don't have to be described as spellcasting -- well, some of them probably should be, but a large variety definitely does NOT require it! Just figure out the things that can plausibly be done with 'internal skill', and describe them as being done via pure skill or breath control. Even if they are overtly superhuman, doesn't mean they are spells, look like spells, or anything like that. Remember, the Monk is one of the more supernatural classes out there (just look at how many of the abilities turn off in an antimagic field or have the Su clause) -- and you were willing to use that!

[eggs]

Well, if he wants help from these forums, he should probably shy away from most sources of 3rd party... lots of the 3rd party books are really badly balanced.
...Unlike, say, WotC's materials? :smalltongue:

It's silly to kneejerk to shutting things down based on 1st/3rd party. The Spell-to-Power Erudite is crazy abusable and the Samurai is crap, regardless of publisher. And Dreamscarred Press's Vitalist/Worldthought Medic deserves its warm regard.

In this case, I agree - Quintessential Monk has maybe 1-2 interesting and 3.5-compatible bits in a pile of weak and forgettable numeric modifiers - but on your general point, I'd be way more interested by a thread about eg. Secrets of Pact Magic's Monk-Binder base class than another Tash or Swordsage build breakdown.

[Gavinfoxx]

Third party books are badly balanced in, often, a dramatically different way than wotc stuff. Like there are things that break consistency and break rules or that show a lack of understanding of how the system works, and that just don't work properly in far larger ratios than you find in WotC books. Lots of stuff really feels rushed in a way that is profoundly different than WotC things!

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some lists of LA+0 player races, as well as templates.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0

There are lots of ways to get humans scales! For example, Silverbrow humans often have scales. For other races, there are also Anthropomorphic Lizards, and the Dragonborn template (apply to Water Orc for example), and Rilkans are reptilian, as are Skarn, and there is even a Saurian Shifter in one of the Dragon Magazines, for your Dinosaur needs! And you can even be a (debatedly) capital D-Dragon as a Dragonwrought Kobold!

[Man on Fire]

Third party books are badly balanced in, often, a dramatically different way than wotc stuff. Like there are things that break consistency and break rules or that show a lack of understanding of how the system works, and that just don't work properly in far larger ratios than you find in WotC books. Lots of stuff really feels rushed in a way that is profoundly different than WotC things!

Nothing good DM won't fix on game-to-game basis.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is a.) Knowing the problems in a general sort of way, b.) Figuring out where the exact specific issues are, and c.) Figuring out reasonable, useful, balanced fixes in the amount of time the DM has to worry about that sort of thing.

That is a nontrivial thing to do! There's a reason that a lot of us aren't game designers, that **** is hard! The best we can do is figure out, in a very broad way, where the problems are, so that new DM's (like DS; he obviously has no idea where the problems in the system are, just look at his posts) don't get blindsided by them, and instead focus on things where he isn't accidentally giving himself lots of extra work or headaches down the road!

TL;DR: Just because flaws are fixable by a 'good DM' doesn't mean that flaws aren't a problem. A good set of rules should be a good set of rules, and not require fixing in the first place!

[eggs]

Third party books are badly balanced in, often, a dramatically different way than wotc stuff. Like there are things that break consistency and break rules or that show a lack of understanding of how the system works, and that just don't work properly in far larger ratios than you find in WotC books. Lots of stuff really feels rushed in a way that is profoundly different than WotC things!
Avalanche Press and Mongoose publishing hundreds of terrible splatbooks doesn't make Dreamscarred or Green Ronin's materials any worse.

There's no need to discourage references to 3rd party splatbooks. It's unfair to treat them as something the board immediately turns against - certain publications come up often enough (eg. Reserves of Strength, Dragonlance War Mage, Metaphysical Spellshaper, Vitalist, Kender Nightstalker, Rokugun Ninja) that it's pretty clear your distaste isn't universal.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, you want a monk that will do this stuff and you don't mind 3rd party?

Look up Frank and K's Tome and get a copy of the PDF, which to the best of my knowledge is completely free. (I might be wrong, feel free to point out if I am. )


Use there Monk and the rest of there book, and I'm certain they have almost if not everything except the race component your looking for. Then, play a Dragon Born applied to something like a Water Orc or something with a helpful stat adjustment and pick up the feat form Races of the dragon to get a tail. Boom, problem solved, assuming the DM is ok with the power curve on the Frank and K's Tome classes, which is quite a bit compared to a lot of other published 3.5 material.

[dao.silverman]

Can we please stop fighting over 3rd party vs core. I work hard to check over everything i include in the campaign and test it my dm when i was 15 always included us in such teesting of any new material and i do the same weather core or 3rd party. Thanks for the player races im still going over them. I found some good options from the links added earlyer thanks for finding them for me. what are some of your idea for class builds for this cha? im not really interested in having a maxed out build thatsd impossable to beat but i need her strong enought to be able to carry two weaker players. they are 12 and 15 and still do not read everything they should and forget to use abilities, alot.

[Gavinfoxx]

My main ideas for melee debuffers are:

*Abandon monk, go a tripper / stand still / knock down character, perhaps using Psychic Warrior or Crusader.

*Use that homebrew remixed monk, focus on the very much improved stunning fist feats mentioned in that thread

*Play an Unarmed Swordsage, focus on the maneuvers and such mentioned in the Melee Debuff thread which also cause debuffs

*Focus on a fear based melee character with a reach weapon, also without using monk. See the Fear Handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809 Consider combining several fighter alternative class features for this, as well as useful dips. (Zhentarim Soldier Thug Fighter, maybe with Dungeon Crusher)

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, Ghost-Faced Killer is not especially bad, though you'll want to focus on Intimidate to make it useful. Since this character is an NPC, an Intimidate focus might be a good choice, since it allows you to disable some of the PCs while fighting the others and thus avoid being dogpiled by everyone at once, making the fight a lot more interesting.

Also, you can ignore the above posts about LA +0 races. This is an NPC, so you're building around a target CR, not a target ECL. Poison Dusk Lizardfolk have CR equal to their level and fairly good stats, they're a fine choice.

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought this was for a player to use as their character??

[Snowbluff]

inb4swordsage?

INB4PyschicWarriorTashalatora?

On a more serious note, Martial Monk?

[ericgrau]

I'm strongly opposed to "Don't make what you want, just play the same thing as everyone else and refluff it/force fit it/etc."

That said, the only useful ability snake shen gets seems to be his 4th ability which you won't get until character level 15. Before then forcing you to fight unarmed is a trap that way too many people fall into even on the vanilla monk. People even go as far as to suggest unarmed alternatives. Monks do more damage with a weapon. They get a slew of special weapons to flurry. Even when you need unarmed damage monks can do it with their hands full. Use a weapon for Pete's sake. Lizardfolk OTOH works well as it's great for survivability. And keeps your fluff.

For disabling try stunning fist and two weapon fighting flurry kama tripping (so only 1 attack is unarmed for the stun) or disarming. Having more attacks works very very well with disabling, whether to get more attempts against the same tough foe or to disable multiple foes at once. Since trip attempts are touch attacks, your low attack bonus won't really hurt, unlike the classic "flurry of misses" problem with many-attack damage builds. Disarming is harder, but against medium humanoids like PCs you should be fine with your +4 feat bonus. And bows, light weapons, spell component pouches and holy symbols get a -4. Once foes are prone they'll be easier for the monk and his allies to hit. By going unarmed only on the stun, you pay only a tiny amount of damage for the small benefit: well worth it. With that in mind your primarily ability score should be strength, followed by con or wis, then dex, then int or cha. Like an unarmed focus, a wis focus is another horrible horrible trap. For every benefit, don't pay more than you get! If disarming you can also go weapon finesse and focus on dex.

Another trick to remember is that you can make your one unarmed attack nonlethal and everything else lethal and you'll still knock foes out without killing them.

Potions of enlarge person are very handy for tripping or disarming (though less so with weapon finesse). The reach also combines well with combat reflexes, which lets you use the attacks of opportunity for trip attempts. Potions of mage armor are great too.

[Urpriest]

I thought this was for a player to use as their character??


I realy wanted to stay away from spell casting as much as posable. I might should clarify im probably the dm and this is going to be a major NCP but she is my child so im putting in alot of effort here. My origional thoughts on her is and were she HAS to be able to kill with her hands she just does not like to. She also has been trained when she puts on the mask she must kill. I'm not fully sticking to the lizardfolk thing but when i dreamed her up she had scales so i want to stick to that but maybe it will just be an anomaly and she is still human. I have read some of the repost and will be reading the reast later but they are helping.

That said, another post mentions that there will only be two other players, both young and both new to the game. At that point I would advise a) making a party support character like a Cleric, to cover weak spots since it's a small party or b) finding more people, or using a system that's better for introducing new players to RPGs. I really don't understand why the OP is planning this sort of detailed flavorful specialized character if it's going to be a DMPC.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, why do you want a character that will actually be actively fighting and making attack rolls and doing anything 'cool' as a DMPC??

You want a character to sit in the back, hand out bonuses, meekly never make a decision, go along with whatever the party wants, and to heal people and remove status effects when necessary.

[dao.silverman]

"Wait, why do you want a character that will actually be actively fighting and making attack rolls and doing anything 'cool' as a DMPC??"
Two reasions; one it is my kids playing and they still need alot of help, and two i like creating charicters i can play if i find someone else to DM just in case.

[Man on Fire]

I'm strongly opposed to "Don't make what you want, just play the same thing as everyone else and refluff it/force fit it/etc."

My feelings exactly.


INB4PyschicWarriorTashalatora?

I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just combine Monk with Psychic Warrior altogether - all Monk class features and saves and PW's power points and powers - Psychic Monk doesn't need to waste a feat and theoretically is effectively tier 3 (Monk and Fighter are both tier 5, PW is Fighty with powers and is tier 3, so monk with powers should be tier 3 too). Easiest fix ever.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just combine Monk with Psychic Warrior altogether - all Monk class features and saves and PW's power points and powers - Psychic Monk doesn't need to waste a feat and theoretically is effectively tier 3 (Monk and Fighter are both tier 5, PW is Fighty with powers and is tier 3, so monk with powers should be tier 3 too). Easiest fix ever.

...Except a PsyWar isn't a fighty with powers stacked on top. It has less bonus feats, less hit points, and lower BAB.

[Man on Fire]

...Except a PsyWar isn't a fighty with powers stacked on top. It has less bonus feats, less hit points, and lower BAB.

Monk already has low BAB and few hit points, you could probably take few class features from him and it would be okay.

[eggs]

I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just combine Monk with Psychic Warrior altogether - all Monk class features and saves and PW's power points and powers - Psychic Monk doesn't need to waste a feat and theoretically is effectively tier 3 (Monk and Fighter are both tier 5, PW is Fighty with powers and is tier 3, so monk with powers should be tier 3 too). Easiest fix ever.
A couple players in my group have basically played that, minus bonus feats. It wasn't unreasonable at all.

[Man on Fire]

A couple players in my group have basically played that, minus bonus feats. It wasn't unreasonable at all.

Hell, if anything it's more fluffy - Monks in D&D are based on novel about monk defeating enemies with power of his mind.