[3.0] Soul Eater & Energy Drain

[Thurbane]

Just wondering if people could shed some light on a RAW issue I have.

The Soul Eater PrC (BoVD, p.66) is a really nice class: full BAB, all good saves, decent skill list and a bunch of abilities based around inflicting negative levels. At first level, it gains the Energy Drain ability:

Energy Drain (Su): A soul eater gains the ability to drain energy, bestowing negative levels upon its victims. Beginning at 1st level, the touch of a soul eater bestows one negative level on its target. At 7th level, the soul eater bestows two negative levels with a touch.

I've seen some rules debates on how exactly this ability is used, which basically boil down to three points of view:

1. It requires a specific melee touch attack, and as an (Su) ability, can only be used once a round.
2. It is activated by any touch, including natural weapon attacks - but is still limited as an (Su) ability to 1/round.
3. It is activated by any touch, including natural weapon attacks, and works as many times in a round as you can hit (so a Troll Soul Eater, for instance, could inflict thee negative levels in a full attack routine of claw/claw/bite).

For comparison, here's what the energy drain of a Vampire reads like:


Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

I'm wondering what people think from a RAW perspective, and what sources you have to back up your opinion?

Cheers - T

[Scarlet-Devil]

I always assumed that it was activated on every natural attack. No sources, just my first instinct. Soul Eaters are bloody awesome one way or another.

[Psyren]

My own ruling is that it's a standard action:


Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.

The Vampire's ability IS noted otherwise (by being a Slam, which is a type of natural attack.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

My own ruling is that it's a standard action:



The Vampire's ability IS noted otherwise (by being a Slam, which is a type of natural attack.)

+1. I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment.

[Necroticplague]

If it helps any, I still have a link to a similar thread I made before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199042).Personally, I think its one of those things where its easiest if you ask the DM and accept their ruling.

[Zilzmaer]

On the other hand, it could be always active, like a Hound Archon's Magic Circle Against Evil or Tongues effects. In that case, you wouldn't have to activate it, merely supply the stimulus to elicit a response; in this case, touch someone.

[Psyren]

On the other hand, it could be always active, like a Hound Archon's Magic Circle Against Evil or Tongues effects. In that case, you wouldn't have to activate it, merely supply the stimulus to elicit a response; in this case, touch someone.

Those are both explicitly stated to be always active, however.


Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level equals the archon’s Hit Dice).


Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

SE's Energy Drain has no such clause.

[Mithril Leaf]

I always assumed that it was activated on every natural attack. No sources, just my first instinct. Soul Eaters are bloody awesome one way or another.

I've felt the same way pretty much. Plus, it would make sense due to the whole weapon focus with a natural weapon requirement.

[kardar233]

I've felt the same way pretty much. Plus, it would make sense due to the whole weapon focus with a natural weapon requirement.

And dealing a couple of negative levels as a standard action at ~ECL 10 minimum is lackluster at best in my games. I've always wanted to make a Shifter Black Blood Cultist Soul Eater.

[Menteith]

Psyren's correct. From a RAW perspective, it's a standard action to use it. There isn't an exemption in the text, or anything that gives it another action type, and it thus defaults to a standard action as per normal.

Given the requirements for the class, one can argue that it was intended to be activated similarly to a Vampire's slam or similar abilities, but that viewpoint would be a houserule.

[Ernir]

The Paladin's Divine Grace comes to mind as a supernatural ability that is not stated to be always active, yet is usually assumed to be so.

Does that perhaps need a standard action to fire up to begin with? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

The Paladin's Divine Grace comes to mind as a supernatural ability that is not stated to be always active, yet is usually assumed to be so.

Does that perhaps need a standard action to fire up to begin with? :smallconfused:

Here you're getting into the difference between an activated ability and a passive bonus. The standard action default only comes into play when you use a supernatural ability. Passive bonuses are never "used"; they simply exist or don't.

Besides, the alternative is even sillier. Do Soul Eaters level drain themselves by picking their noses? How does one put its clothes on or eat? Given how your nervous system works, can you ever be said not to be "touching yourself?"

As soon as you gain a level in the class, you would lose it since your nerves are all interconnected.

[Zilzmaer]

True, it doesn't say it's always active. The problem is that it doesn't state that you must use it, either. Even the Vampire's ability isn't activated; instead, it's triggered, like a poison would be. But the Soul Eater ability doesn't say it only triggers once per round.

[Psyren]

True, it doesn't say it's always active. The problem is that it doesn't state that you must use it, either. Even the Vampire's ability isn't activated; instead, it's triggered, like a poison would be. But the Soul Eater ability doesn't say it only triggers once per round.

Correct - if you have multiple standard actions in a round, you can activate Energy Drain multiple times as appropriate.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think RAI and RAW are both very clear here and they disagree.
RAI is that it works on a hit with your natural weapon.
RAW is that it needs a standard action.
As many have said before, check with your DM.

Sidenote: does anyone have the text for the 3.0 vampire's slam attack?

[mattie_p]

Sidenote: does anyone have the text for the 3.0 vampire's slam attack?

Here you go. It's almost word for word like the SRD. Checked the 3.0 errata, no changes.


Damage: Vampires have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the damage values in the table below. Creatures with natural attacks retain their old damage ratings or use the values below, whichever is better.

Fine - 1
Diminutive - 1d2
Tiny - 1d3
Small - 1d4
Medium - 1d6
Large - 1d8
Huge - 2d6
Gargantuan - 2d8
Colossal - 4d6

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Please note: "Check with your DM" doesn't really help me, as I am the DM, and trying to figure what the RAW standpoint is on the issue.

Assume it's for an entry in a RPGA (or Iron Chef comp) game where it needs to be as RAW as is reasonably possible.

[ThiagoMartell]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Please note: "Check with your DM" doesn't really help me, as I am the DM, and trying to figure what the RAW standpoint is on the issue.

Assume it's for an entry in a RPGA (or Iron Chef comp) game where it needs to be as RAW as is reasonably possible.

By RAW, it's a standard action.

[Zilzmaer]

By RAW, it's a standard action.

So, by RAW, a vampire can't use it's Energy Drain unless it has more than one standard action per round? The ability doesn't list an activation time, so it's a standard action; but it only works on a natural attack, so the vampire has to also make an attack roll. It can't do both in one action because that only works for weaponlike spells and SLAs.

Unless it's always active, and triggers like a poison, or a Chaos Beast's Corporeal Instability, for a (Su) example. Which is how I think of it, as I said previously.

Edit: Or, for that matter, like a Lich's DR, which is (Su), doesn't list a method of activation, and doesn't say it's always active.

[whibla]

So, by RAW, a vampire can't use it's Energy Drain unless it has more than one standard action per round? The ability doesn't list an activation time, so it's a standard action; but it only works on a natural attack, so the vampire has to also make an attack roll. It can't do both in one action because that only works for weaponlike spells and SLAs.

RAW says "Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round."

Even quoted in the OP. The last line could be interpreted to mean that, in the event of multiple natural attacks, only the first one in the round causes the negative levels, but the first sentence is pretty clear.

I must admit, I hadn't fully realised that Vampires had been so badly nerfed. I remember an old module that was full of vampiric illithids. If all 4 tentacles hit you lost 8 levels, and this was before the nerf to level drain too. These were real levels lost, not merely negative levels that, in all likelihood, you shake off the next day simply by making a saving throw.

[Dark_Ansem]

would a dragon breath also qualify?

[Urpriest]

would a dragon breath also qualify?

Depends. Is the dragon breath a natural attack? Does the dragon breath involve touching the creature? I don't know of any dragon breath weapons that do either, but there could be an exception out there.

[Xander_Phoenix]

Please correct me if I'm wrong in the following interpretation, but I can't see any reason for Energy Drain class feature (ability) of Soul Eater to be ambiguous by RAW.

General Rule:

Energy Drain (Su): ... happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits ... bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many) ...

Specific Rule:

... at 1st level, the touch of a soul eater bestows one negative level ...


Do Soul Eaters level drain themselves by picking their noses?
As long as they don't make melee or ranged attacks against their nose they are safe! :smalltongue:

[Mato]

Soul Eater's energy drain is a passive ability, bestowing negative levels to your touch. See also, touch attacks and how you can full attack and also deal sneak attack damage and deliver spells while using them.

Also, Defenders of Faith has a +2 armor enhancement that bestows 1d4 negative levels per touch attack. Even your 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide has a Lifedrinker axe in it, if you're immune to energy drain then 38,000gp buys the ability to bestow two negative levels on each hit on top of your full weapon damage.

Soul Eater is behind the power curve, not above it.