Ways for Rogue to get around Armor Bonus

[Popertop]

I hate how rogues are immediately screwed against Fully Fortified Armor.

There has to be a way around that besides relegating myself to using a Brilliant Energy Kukri...


Also, (aside from wand of wraithstrike and similar spells that let you sneak attack undead/constructs, as well as the Penetrating Strike ACF) what other ways do rogues get around undead/constructs/plants and otherwise sneak immune baddies?

Are there any good Rogue handbooks around here? I didn't find any in my search.

[Ranting Fool]

There are some PrC's that allow you to sneak attack undead (Cleric/Rogue) but can't think of the name of the top of my head.

Weapon Crystals are the way to go :smallbiggrin: get one for constructs/undead/plants (I think) and just swap as and when needed.

I'm sure there are a few spells in the Spell Comp that lets you sneak attack people but again I haven't looked into that for ages sorry.

[Metahuman1]

I'd love to have a way to sneak attack Plants, people wearing heavy fortified armor, Elementals, Oozes, ext.

I know how to do Undead and Constructs, but I'd LOVE to be able to rely on my sneak attack to help me on other things.

[Popertop]

are there any rogue handbooks you could point me to?

I know about skullclan hunter and the truedeath crystals, but if my dm doesn't allow those a Disrupting Undead Bane Mace is a little pricey when I'd rather be spending my WBL on things like true sight/flight/immunities.

[TuggyNE]

Maybe use wands of (greater) dispel magic against heavy fortification?

[INoKnowNames]

are there any rogue handbooks you could point me to?

There's a decentish one here, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) I've been looking up theoretical characters and builds to try later, and if I ever get into a Tristalt, I'm dreaming up a character who can get (at level 20) almost, if not, 30d6 damage per attack, while Full Attacking and Two Weapon Fighting. The handbook's been a decent guide for me.

Sadly enough, it doesn't have any Magic Items for it, but the rest seems legit.

[GreenSerpent]

Penetrating Strike ACF. Basically half sneak attack if the target would normally be immune to it.

So if you normally do 6d6 SA damage, this lets you SA oozes, undead, anything immune to it normally for 3d6 SA damage.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, there's always the Golem/Grave/Vine Strike spells. A series of 1st level swift spells that let you SA Constructs/Undead/Plants for 1 round. All are in Complete Adventurer, with Grave Strike being reprinted in the SpC.

[Lycar]

Maybe use wands of (greater) dispel magic against heavy fortification?

Why should he have to do it? Most parties lug around a wizard. Unless the mage in question can end the encounter all by himself (and if he can, why is he even with other people?), his task is to buff his allies, debuff enemies and shape the battlefield.

So in other words: Dispelling the Fortification is the Wizard's job, not the Rogues.

[Curmudgeon]

Penetrating Strike ACF. Basically half sneak attack if the target would normally be immune to it.

So if you normally do 6d6 SA damage, this lets you SA oozes, undead, anything immune to it normally for 3d6 SA damage.
Two points:

You can't flank oozes, so Penetrating Strike still does nothing for you.
The Dungeonscape Penetrating Strike says you deal damage when you flank a sneak-immune target. It doesn't say that's sneak attack damage. Craven is a bonus to sneak attack damage. On the other hand, there's Lightbringer Penetrating Strike in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (page 208), which deals sneak attack damage with ½ the normal dice when you flank a sneak-immune target. Because these have different names, I recommend you pick the one that won't require a DM judgment call about whether you're still doing sneak attack.

[Crasical]

I hate how rogues are immediately screwed against Fully Fortified Armor.

Considering that Heavy Fortification is sporting +6 equivalent enchantment and the person wearing it has spent over 36k gold on it, maybe you can hand them just that one little victory?

[Slipperychicken]

Considering that Heavy Fortification is sporting +6 equivalent enchantment and the person wearing it has spent over 36k gold on it, maybe you can hand them just that one little victory?

The problem with handing people victory is that you lose. The problem with losing in a fight is that you die. And dying gets expensive, fast. Rogues, on the other hand, like to win, survive, and make money. Handing people victory in a fight is therefore unconscionable to a proper Rogue.

[aeauseth]

Take a look at the Brilliant Energy property (DMG 224). It is expensive at a +4 equivalent weapon enhancement. The Brilliant Blade spell (SC 40) is a 6th level wizard spell. In both cases the brilliant weapon ignores any ARMOR bonus that your target might have.

Magic Item Compendium: Deathstrike bracers, Gauntlets of ghost fighting, Truedeath Crystal, Demolition Crystal

[tyckspoon]

Take a look at the Brilliant Energy property (DMG 224). It is expensive at a +4 equivalent weapon enhancement. The Brilliant Blade spell (SC 40) is a 6th level wizard spell. In both cases the brilliant weapon ignores any ARMOR bonus that your target might have.

Specifically, it bypasses Armor bonuses to AC. Attacking with a Brilliant Energy weapon would not ignore Heavy Fortification any more than it would disable Invulnerable (it would ignore Invulnerable because Invulnerable is a terrible, terrible property, but that's a different discussion.) Brilliant Energy is not a solution to the OP's question, although granting it that power might go a small measure toward helping make it a trait you might actually want in a weapon.

[Fitz10019]

First you Grease the interior of his armor, and then you cast Enlarge Person, targetted on him but excluding his armor. When he pops out...

Okay, that doesn't really work, but your UMD should be very good by the time you face a heavily fortified opponent. You should have a selection of low-level wands to harangue anyone you can't sneak. I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll start a new one on this tangential topic.

[Curmudgeon]

Take a look at the Brilliant Energy property (DMG 224). It is expensive at a +4 equivalent weapon enhancement. The Brilliant Blade spell (SC 40) is a 6th level wizard spell. In both cases the brilliant weapon ignores any ARMOR bonus that your target might have.
As tyckspoon already noted, an armor enhancement is not the same thing as an armor bonus. Plus the best (most cost-efficient) way to get heavy fortification has nothing at all to do with armor: it's a Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83). Separating that out means you can have fortification and also buy various armor enhancements without getting into Epic pricing.

[Gwendol]

To fight armored opponents specifically the rogue should play his strengths and level the playing field. Make the mark undress!

[hoverfrog]

Heat Metal is fun. If someone is going to wrap themselves in a metal shell them warm it up for them. Attack him with a rust monster or other effect that targets his expensive armour. Does the fully fortified armour cover his entire body? If not then can you make a called shot on an exposed area without armour protection? sure you suffer a penalty to hit but you'll still have that damage bonus.

[Curmudgeon]

If not then can you make a called shot on an exposed area without armour protection? sure you suffer a penalty to hit but you'll still have that damage bonus.
Called shots aren't part of the RAW. I'm afraid you're thinking of some house rule.

[hoverfrog]

Called shots aren't part of the RAW. I'm afraid you're thinking of some house rule.A fair point but it never hurts to ask.

[JohnDaBarr]

1.You are using TWF? Yes.

2.Good

3.Get a wand chamber on your weapons, put in a wand of Wraith Strike in one and a wand of Swift Invisibility in the other?

4.Profit!

[Khedrac]

To be honest you pretty much have to accept that there are ways to prevent sneak attack. If there were not, then you would be too powerful, certainly by WotC's logic and also for most common campaigns. Rogues are designed to do a lot of damage against most opponents, but when you get to the nasty ones, step behind the fighter.
Also for the heavy fortification person look to do other things - can you disarm? How about a Tanglefoot Bag? UMD a wand of something. Don't stick to being a one-trick pony of sneak attack - rogues are flexible and adapt.

Get it right and you can surprise your opponent nicely. I was playing a mage (no fortification) in one big fight who basically ignored one of the enemy who did nothing for three rounds. The DM then declared a death attack on me so I pointed out that I had permanent See Invisible so was not flat-footed. The crit did enough damage to kill me... I'd say "no sneak attack but still effective", but thinking back I wonder if the DM remembered not to apply it, it was a rather large amount of damage for a simple bow crit even allowing × 3 (actually I am sure he rememebred not to apply it).

[Tim Proctor]

Against Fortification Armor, I have never seen anything, but here is an Item that is a must for every Rogue. MIC pg 93

DEATHSTRIKE BRACERS
Price (Item Level): 5,000 gp (9th)
Body Slot: Arms
Caster Level: 5th
Aura: Faint; (DC 17) transmutation
Activation: Swift (mental)
Weight: 2 lb.
Each of these black steel bracers is marked with
an etching of crossed swords.
When activated, deathstrike bracers allow
you to use melee weapons to deal extra
damage from critical hits and sneak attacks
to constructs, elementals, oozes, plants,
and undead as if they were not immune
to such extra damage. You must still roll a
critical threat and confi rm it as a critical hit
or qualify to deliver sneak attack damage
to gain any benefi t from the bracers. This
effect does not allow you to overcome any
other immunity or resistance to extra
damage from sneak attacks or critical hits
(such as the fortifi cation armor property).
This effect lasts for 1 round.
This ability functions three times per
day.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
keen edge.
Cost to Create: 2,500 gp, 200 XP, 5 days

[Downysole]

Maybe you should have another way to contribute to the BBEG fight than sneak attacking him. You're a rogue, I'm sure you have some kind of skill checks. Maybe UMD on a variety of wands (wraithstrike if you're stuck on sneak attack) that do other things to the tin can man. Freeze Armor from Frostburn does nice DoT plus makes the armor-wearer immobile (not helpless). Heat metal and Chill metal can do less damage, but are similarly inconvenient to armor-wearers.

If you're full on dex and no skills, you can help the other members of the party out with some aid another checks helped out with the amulet of teamwork. Or you can sneak up on said BBEG and glue the legs of his armor together with some sovereign glue. Bit of overkill never hurt anyone.

[Metahuman1]

Against Fortification Armor, I have never seen anything, but here is an Item that is a must for every Rogue. MIC pg 93

DEATHSTRIKE BRACERS
Price (Item Level): 5,000 gp (9th)
Body Slot: Arms
Caster Level: 5th
Aura: Faint; (DC 17) transmutation
Activation: Swift (mental)
Weight: 2 lb.
Each of these black steel bracers is marked with
an etching of crossed swords.
When activated, deathstrike bracers allow
you to use melee weapons to deal extra
damage from critical hits and sneak attacks
to constructs, elementals, oozes, plants,
and undead as if they were not immune
to such extra damage. You must still roll a
critical threat and confi rm it as a critical hit
or qualify to deliver sneak attack damage
to gain any benefi t from the bracers. This
effect does not allow you to overcome any
other immunity or resistance to extra
damage from sneak attacks or critical hits
(such as the fortifi cation armor property).
This effect lasts for 1 round.
This ability functions three times per
day.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
keen edge.
Cost to Create: 2,500 gp, 200 XP, 5 days

Is there anything other then heavy fortification this item doesn't fix for rouges?

[Curmudgeon]

Is there anything other then heavy fortification this item doesn't fix for rouges?
It fixes nothing for rouges. For Rogues, though, it still doesn't allow them to sneak attack swarms.

[Metahuman1]

It fixes nothing for rouges. For Rogues, though, it still doesn't allow them to sneak attack swarms.

Swarms are easy enough to handle once you get a bit of spare cash.

Now, what I want to know is is there some trick floating around to allow this trick to work more then 3/day, other then just buying lot's of pairs and trading them out?

[Crasical]

The problem with handing people victory is that you lose. The problem with losing in a fight is that you die. And dying gets expensive, fast. Rogues, on the other hand, like to win, survive, and make money. Handing people victory in a fight is therefore unconscionable to a proper Rogue.

It's a problem if the DM is throwing lots of undead, constructs, plants and oozes at you so you can't function in battle. If your DM is giving everyone +6 equivalent armor specifically to thwart you, that's a problem (But stand back and reap the benefits as your allies kill these fools and you get expensive magical gear). If it's just one occasionally guy who has immunity to your sneak attack? Unless you are a wizard, no-one can contribute to absolutely every obstacle the party encounters. There's nothing wrong with dealing with the minions or just settling back and lighting up a joint of Devilweed while the other 3 members of your standard adventuring party gang up on the guy.

[whibla]

Now, what I want to know is is there some trick floating around to allow this trick to work more then 3/day, other then just buying lot's of pairs and trading them out?

It's certainly not to make a pair of them yourself, using the standard item creation guidelines. Even ignoring the fact that they're effectively using a quickened action without increasing the spell (or caster) level by 4, they're still underpriced by 13000 gp, by my reckoning. Granted, the spell requirement to make doesn't quite match the item's function, but, while I can see the logic of that spell, I'm still not sure I understand why they're so cheap.

However, maybe you could try blagging your DM to just put in a set, or have yours upgraded, with more uses per day at an equivalent cost. If the 3/day cost 5000 gp, then 6/day would cost 10000 gp, and so on.

Funny thing is, if you accept that the spell in question does allow you to make an item that has this effect, the cost to make a set of bracers that do it permanently, according to the item creation guidelines is only:
Sale Price - 45000 gp
Cost to Create - 22500 gp + 1800 xp.
I'd be tempted to call that a bargain, especially if you're going to be killing undead for most of a session.

[Popertop]

What would be the simplest way for me to get Vine/Grave/Golem strike on my list if I went with a Gish build, or even ways to get them on the assassin list?

It seems like Archivist can get Vine and Grave strike, but can they get Golem strike too?

It looks like playing some sort of Gish is going to be my best bet. I'll even go archer if I have to, getting Ranger spells as an archivist would be freakin sweet.

A wand of Grease is always a solid bet, but I have yet to find a way around the fully fortified armor, and the DM pretty much said "all warriors at epic level are going to have fortified armor." I know epic is a different deal, but I was hoping to find some tricks that would work at most levels, I just want to find a way around it so he at least has to try other things to get normal enemies immune to sneak attack.

Speaking of, what is a good epic level sneaky gish build? Preferably with sneak attack-enabled combat and lots of sneak attack related abilities.

Edit: I would gladly pay 50k for a pair of deathstrike bracers.

[Curmudgeon]

What would be the simplest way for me to get Vine/Grave/Golem strike on my list if I went with a Gish build, or even ways to get them on the assassin list?
You're out of luck there. Golem Strike is Sorcerer/Wizard 1 (arcane). Grave Strike is Cleric/Paladin 1 (divine). Vine Strike is Druid/Ranger 1 (divine). There's no way to get all of these on one spell list. The best you can do with the fewest resources is a 1-level Cleric dip with the Magic domain. You'll have Grave Strike and a guarantee of being able to use wands with Golem Strike. The more general approach is Use Magic Device with a +19 modifier, and you don't need to be a gish at all.

[Popertop]

Is a swift action spell cast out of a wand as a swift action?

[gorfnab]

Is a swift action spell cast out of a wand as a swift action?
Yes, Rules Compendium page 85


Activating a spell trigger item takes the same
amount of time as the casting time of the spell
that the item stores, but activating the item
doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

[White_Drake]

Slightly off topic, I always thought it would be great if there was an official Tenebrous Energy property which was identical to brilliant but composed of shadow for this exact purpose.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You're out of luck there. Golem Strike is Sorcerer/Wizard 1 (arcane). Grave Strike is Cleric/Paladin 1 (divine). Vine Strike is Druid/Ranger 1 (divine). There's no way to get all of these on one spell list. The best you can do with the fewest resources is a 1-level Cleric dip with the Magic domain. You'll have Grave Strike and a guarantee of being able to use wands with Golem Strike. The more general approach is Use Magic Device with a +19 modifier, and you don't need to be a gish at all.

How about dipping Archivist (HoH) to get Grave/Vinestrike on your list, then using an Anyspell (spell domain, 3rd level) to grab Golemstrike?

While the first two are RAW solid, the third is... iffy. Anyspell specifies using a domain slot to cast the arcane spell, which Archivists don't possess.

Regardless, I'd argue for an Archivist 1 dip with someway of getting UMD as a class skill (Apprentice [spellcaster]?).

[Socratov]

How about dipping Archivist (HoH) to get Grave/Vinestrike on your list, then using an Anyspell (spell domain, 3rd level) to grab Golemstrike?

While the first two are RAW solid, the third is... iffy. Anyspell specifies using a domain slot to cast the arcane spell, which Archivists don't possess.

Regardless, I'd argue for an Archivist 1 dip with someway of getting UMD as a class skill (Apprentice [spellcaster]?).

dip rogue, you'll get UMD and a bunch of skillpoints to fill it up with, or go warlock 4 or 12 to either be able to activate any magic item, or in the case of 12, craft any magic item (you will still need the feats)

[Kuulvheysoon]

dip rogue, you'll get UMD and a bunch of skillpoints to fill it up with, or go warlock 4 or 12 to either be able to activate any magic item, or in the case of 12, craft any magic item (you will still need the feats)

Please note the OP's question;


What would be the simplest way for me to get Vine/Grave/Golem strike on my list if I went with a Gish build, or even ways to get them on the assassin list?

[Curmudgeon]

then using an Anyspell (spell domain, 3rd level) to grab Golemstrike?

While the first two are RAW solid, the third is... iffy. Anyspell specifies using a domain slot to cast the arcane spell, which Archivists don't possess.
You've answered your own question, except there's no "iffy" bit. Anyspell works with your Clerical 3rd level domain slot. If you don't have that slot the spell does nothing.

[Socratov]

Please note the OP's question;

I only reacted to using UMD, sorry for that... :smallredface:

I think the rest of the posters has answered correctly as it is :D

[mregecko]

You're out of luck there. Golem Strike is Sorcerer/Wizard 1 (arcane). Grave Strike is Cleric/Paladin 1 (divine). Vine Strike is Druid/Ranger 1 (divine). There's no way to get all of these on one spell list. The best you can do with the fewest resources is a 1-level Cleric dip with the Magic domain. You'll have Grave Strike and a guarantee of being able to use wands with Golem Strike. The more general approach is Use Magic Device with a +19 modifier, and you don't need to be a gish at all.

Not true. The PrC you're looking for is Unseen Seer. It allows you to pull Divination spells from any class list, and also advances full arcane spellcasting. You can get Grave and Vine with the class feature Advanced Learning, and Golem Strike will already be on your class list (if you're doing [Sorc/Wiz]&Rogue entry).

This still doesn't help with Heavy Fortification. To my knowledge, short of some of the penetrating-strike style feats and a dispel magic, there's no way around it.

1/day item of Antimagic Field + sneak attack? IDK....

-- G

[Curmudgeon]

Not true. The PrC you're looking for is Unseen Seer. It allows you to pull Divination spells from any class list, and also advances full arcane spellcasting. You can get Grave and Vine with the class feature Advanced Learning, and Golem Strike will already be on your class list (if you're doing [Sorc/Wiz]&Rogue entry).
You're quite right. I just hadn't though of needing 5+ levels of other classes and 5 levels of a prestige class to get 3 1st-level spells on your spell list. :smallsigh:

[Popertop]

Ahh, its all right. I would probably end up going Unseen Seer anyway for this build. It's just such a shame to give up those sweet assassin spells...

Y'all have some tips on how to deal with epic levels as a rogue?

[Curmudgeon]

Y'all have some tips on how to deal with epic levels as a rogue?
Basically it comes down to three things:

Epic levels of equipment.
Epic skills.
Hide in Plain Sight.
The right form of Hide in Plain Sight enables the Rogue to Hide pretty much always. That would be the Shadowdancer/Assassin Supernatural version: Hide anywhere within 10' of any sort of shadow. There's a blade of grass 10' from you? It makes a shadow, and you can Hide. You're not hiding in any shadow; it's just a Supernatural (i.e., magical) enabler. If you're hidden you can't be targeted: not for attacks, and not for spells. Avoiding most spells is the big win here. And, because Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight is only used on your turn, and the Hide skill itself is mundane, opponents can't detect this ability with Detect Magic or Arcane Sight on their turns. True Seeing can't find you.

Epic levels of equipment are great. But actual Epic equipment is ridiculously expensive, so first you want to push the pre-Epic magic equipment limits. Skill bonus (competence) items follow a standard formula, and can go up to +30 before Epic pricing kicks in. So in addition to maxing out your skill ranks, get +30 competence items for important skills. Like Hide, because your Epic opponents can just as easily have +30 Spot items. Check out the Epic skill DCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist) for areas where you can achieve spectacular results with skills:

Appraise DC 50: sense magic auras in items. (Then see Spellcraft.)
Balance 10+ higher than opponent's Strength check: avoid being tripped. (Not Epic, just Nifty.)
Balance DC 90: on liquid.
Bluff higher than opponent's Sense Motive by 50+: instill Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) effect (not a spell, so no save).
Climb DC 70: a perfectly smooth wall.
Climb DC 100: any surface, including ceilings.
Escape Artist DC 120: pass through Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) or Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm).
Hide higher than opponent's Spot by 30+: Hide another character.
Search DC 60: sense magic. (Then see Spellcraft.)
Spellcraft DC 70 + CL: sense all magic properties of item. Basically Analyze Dweomer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/analyzeDweomer.htm) without casting a spell.
Spot DC 80: defeat illusion.
Tumble DC 40: make a 10' adjustment in place of a 5' step. (Not Epic, just Nifty.)
Tumble DC 100: ignore falling damage.
Remember your standard +2 circumstance bonus masterwork tools, so you'll be at +32 to important skills from your items. At Epic levels your synergy effects increase. Where +5 in a related skill gives a +2 bonus, +25 in a related skill instead gives a +4 bonus. Buy a wand of Divine Insight at CL 10 for a +15 insight bonus to one skill check in the 10 hours after triggering (immediate action to use) and you'll make about DC 60 on untrained skills with "take 10", and DC 90-100 at low Epic levels with trained skills.