[PF] Advanced Races Guide. Opinions?

[NamelessNPC]

I've just obtained a copy of the book, and was wondering what everyone thinks about it.

The general format of the book is divided in 3 sections. Core races, Featured Races (goblins, orcs, drow, the elemental and aligned outsiders, kobolds, tengus, catfolk and ratfolk) and Uncommon Races (the ones who live more isolated, ergo, uncommon: the races of the dragon empire, duergar, svirfneblin, merfolk and gillmen, etc). Every race gets special racial archetypes, equipment, spells, feats and alternate racial traits, though core races get a lot of material, and uncommon races get very few, and not all of them get everything.

For what I've seen, very few alternate archetypes sound cool, or at least not underpowered. Some thoughts:

The Scarred Witch Doctor (it's really an Orc Witch, makes no doctoring whatsoever) sounds cool because it's different, as it's casting stat is constitution.

The Goblin Alchemist looks cool, even if predictable: Goblins like fire, we already knew it. Goblins also get a feat which lets them use bigger firearms than they should, which is nice.

I was dissapointed with the racial archetypes for Inquisitors, there are 3 of them and none very powerful. The Ifrit Inquisitor even has -2 WIS, that won't work well with such a MAD class.

I liked the ratfolk gunslinger, which focuses on shooting in close quarters.

The book has some bad editing and erratas are needed. For example, the Tengu rogue gets some "trance". It works kind of like barbarian rage, or more accurately bardic performance, but with less rounds. One of the trances lets you charge+pounce an enemy if you succeed at a CMB check against him. However, it doesn't state what kind of action that check is.

So, your thoughts?

[GenPol]

Balance issues aside, I like it. I was initially skeptical of the race creation point system, because systems like that never seem to work well, as it's hard to take into account synergy, face value, opportunity value, and all that. I don't think it's perfect, but it's not horrible, and would probably serve as a decent rule of thumb for less experienced DMs who are looking to create their own races.

Outside of that, I especially like the picture of the Hobgoblin Monk, I thought of Thaco from Goblins when I saw it. The actual archetype doesn't seem incredibly useful to me, though.

[ClockworkSun]

I was thinking about picking it up soon, and I've only paged through it at the game store, but I LOVE the index in the back that has starting ages and height/weights for ALL the featured and uncommon races.

[NamelessNPC]

Outside of that, I especially like the picture of the Hobgoblin Monk, I thought of Thaco from Goblins when I saw it. The actual archetype doesn't seem incredibly useful to me, though.

The other Hobgoblin picture looks just like the orcs from the LOTR movies

[Arutema]

Looking at it is a long-time halfling player,it has a lot my favorite race needed. The ability to trade a not-so-useful skill bonus for the ability to move 30ft and a monk archetype that makes halflings the best trip-monkeys in the game? Yes please.

Height, weight age charts for all races and sample names for all races in chapter 1 and 2 are a welcome addition.

Mystic Past life for the samsaran has some of the problems the old 3.5 archivist had with adding ranger and paladin spells early to a cleric/oracle/druid list.

Even if you don't use chapter 4 to build new races, it has all you need to prove once and for all that the drow noble (41RP) was not intended as a PC race.

The art is a bit all-over-the-place with some artists styles contrasting heavily. Compare the Nagagi and Merfolk art for instance. The catfok art in ARG shows a vastly different visual style than seen in bestiary 3, and I tend to prefer the bestiary 3 art. In general i feel like the ARG art is a bit of a let-down.

Overall, the books usefulness heavily depends on the GM allowing the races in it. For Pathfinder Society play, you may never use material outside of chapter 1. This can make it difficult to justify the cost of a hardcover if you're a society-only player or your GM feels like limiting race options. But I feel like it is worth at least getting the $10 PDF.

[Drelua]

Here's another thing that needs errata, and is probably quite abusable. I was checking to see if there's anything good for my current half-elven PC when I noticed the alternate racial trait water child. It says:
These half-elves... can always take 10 while swimming Is it just me, or would that apply to any skill check you make while while swimming? Taking 10 certainly isn't that big of a deal, but somehow I doubt that they meant for it to work like that. :smallamused:

[Benly]

The race-creation system is rubbish if you treat it as a point-buy system, but semi-decent if you treat it as a rough evaluation system for a race you've already gotten the basics laid out for.

I like the new material for existing races, but there are more than a few racial archetypes that don't feel like they should be race-specific. The Redeemer is probably my new favorite paladin archetype but there's basically nothing half-orc-specific about it, and the Treesinger druid just feels like another entry in the same group as the various animal shaman archetypes rather than a specifically elven druid.

In general, the crunch runs the gamut from "interesting but disappointing" (Experimental Gunsmith, I'm looking at you) to "pretty solid" to "arguably overpowered" (Scarred Witch Doctor, Paragon Surge, Mystic Past Life). There's a fair amount that I wouldn't necessarily take, but at least the archetypes all tend to be a neat idea if nothing else, so there's that.

[Infernalbargain]

By large I like it. Some of the stuff they give to the wizard is a bit much (spontaneous divination wtf?). There are still remnants of fixing traits to make specific races come out right. Biggest offender is Svirfneblin magic & co.

[Blisstake]

Overall, I like it. Many of the archetypes look fun to play, even though there are a few that make me turn my head in confusion. I love the Mystic Past Life for Samsarans... as a seriously supoptimal racial choice, I like them getting something powerful for once.

No opinions on the race builder. Haven't looked at it, and it's not really something I need. I imagine a few of the abilities are either valued far too high or low.

[Psyren]

By large I like it. Some of the stuff they give to the wizard is a bit much (spontaneous divination wtf?).

Quite apart from this being a popular option in 3.5, remember that most divinations help the entire party. By forcing casters to prepare them, the end result is that very few dedicate slots to doing so. And while other casters can do so, the Int-based caster is the best person for this job.

Divinations can be a lot of fun for the DM as well. Even a DM that freely tells the players what they want to know will eventually roll in the range where they are required to lie/mislead; this can be even more effective once the party has come to rely on their diviner's pronouncements than it would be on a naturally suspicious party or one used to obfuscation.

[CTrees]

I have a copy on order, but Amazon keeps pushing back that date. Current delivery estimate is 7/12, for some reason. Trade-offs for cheap (hurray Amazon Prime) vs. fast. Haven't bothered with the PDF, because I'll eventually have the hardcover.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I agree that some of the racial variants are kinda weak, which is sad because it basically punishes people for trying to do flavorful things and trying to diversify.

I also think some racial traits are plain weird. My tiefling has traded Tiefling Sorcery (Why would you make a tiefling sorcerer?) for a tail which I am unsure what I do with since I doubt much is going to be at butt-height that I cannot grab normally.

I think I have to disagree on the art, and while some pieces are a bit off, some of my favorite pieces of pathfinder art are in there, like the treesinger elf and some of the halflings. Some is still pretty weird like Romance Novel Cover elf however.

I forget if the Spontaneous Divination is worded as ANY prepared spell slot or ANY spell slot, but I do remember the word any in there, which might make it nice for a Mystic Theurge if it works like I think it does?

[Wagadodo]

The book has some bad editing and erratas are needed. For example, the Tengu rogue gets some "trance". It works kind of like barbarian rage, or more accurately bardic performance, but with less rounds. One of the trances lets you charge+pounce an enemy if you succeed at a CMB check against him. However, it doesn't state what kind of action that check is.


At least for this one I would think charge, a full round action to charge an enemy. At least that is how it works for my Charging Barbarian.

As for the rest of the book. I think the art work was well done, there was only one or two pictures of what the heck. The additional class options for each race was nice. There are some very interesting feats that are now avaible if you want to play that certain race.

[NamelessNPC]

At least for this one I would think charge, a full round action to charge an enemy. At least that is how it works for my Charging Barbarian.


Yeah, the charge is a full round action, but is the CMB check a free action made as part of the charge (so if I don't succeed I charge all the same but only make one attack at the end of it) or is the CMB a swift action made before the charge (so if I don't succeed I can make another thing instead of charging) or is the CMB check a free action made before the charge (so if I don't succeed I can try to check against another enemy at charge range)?

[CTrees]

My copy finally came in, yesterday. Haven't really had a chance to go through it in-depth yet (for instance, basically haven't looked at ANY of the racial items/magic items/spells). So, initial thoughts:

-For flavor, it's a fantastic book. Everything in it seems focused on providing flavorful options, which I love.

-Balance is... eh. Seems like most of the alternate classes are slightly weaker than the bases, with some exceptions (*cough*half-orc witch*cough*). This seems pretty standard with PF, though... Still, the flavor of most of PF's full body of archetypes is good enough that I'm tempted to propose a game where everyone MUST take an archetype-no unmodified classes allowed.

-Many of the racial archetypes are going to be difficult to mix-and-match with other archetypes, due to the random scattering of features they change. This makes me sad.

-Several races get feat chains that end in them getting wings. Given how liberal PF is with feats, especially for the melee classes (which have the most to gain by a new way to get flight), I rather like this. Three feats might still be a little much, but... I'll grudgingly accept it.

-The artwork is hit-or-miss, but less so than most 3.5 books. Seem to remember MOST of those having a broad range between friggin' awesome to ohgodwhatisthatkillitpleasekillitnow.

-The thing which worried me the most, the race building system? Still not for players, but they gave up on "lets make all of the core races exactly ten points" line of thinking, so it's closer to being balanced. As a means of "is this in line with the other races," I rather like it. It's a nice world-building tool.

-I love the elven Treesinger druid. Somewhat glad they didn't attempt to replicate greenbound summoning (even if it would have fit the theme), but it's still really cool. I don't remember a restriction against wearing armor made from animals, but I could see tacking it on for RP purposes. This actually might be my default druid, if it weren't for the Stormlord archetype.

-Aasimar have a feat which gives them a halo. This is very cool to me. Also the charts at the back of the book firmly disprove the "aasimar can only be female" thing one of the guys in my group believes, for some reason. I like that, too.

-The drow cleric is begging to be the default drow NPC cleric, mostly due to the channel demonic energy feature.

All in all, there's a lot of stuff I would play in a low-op game, but not much I've found so far for high-op. Flavor is excellent, and the book is going to take me forever to fully parse.

[Corlindale]

I like some of the more subtle changes to regular race options. Like the way they suddenly turned dwarf wizards (usually a suboptimal and rare choice) into the kings of item creation, and made elf oracles an attractive options for certain builds (both of these accomplished simply by introducing new favoured class bonuses for these race/class combinations, though elf oracle is also helped along with the new archetype).

There are a number of fairly meh archetypes, but there are also some that stand out as either powerful or flavourful or both:

The Stonelord Paladin seems fun and quite potent - which is impressive considering he loses both Divine Grace (one of the best class features in the entire game) and spellcasting.

The Filcher halfling rogue could have potential too, and it's really funny flavour wise. It certainly makes in-combat stealing a viable strategy. Don't know exactly how potent it would be, but it seems that substituting a skill check for a CMB check is a very powerful option - especially since it lets you stack your magical bonuses to both regular CMB and Sleight of Hand.

I love the mechanics of the Wishcrafter Ifrit sorceror, with the whole twist-a-wish theme. It's obviously very GM-dependant exactly how effective this power would be, but it seems like it could be great fun to use for a clever player.

Elves get a lot of good stuff, both the oracle and wizard archetypes are pretty solid. The oracle especially seems like a good choice if going for a mystery with cool revelations but a lackluster spell list (Time, I'm looking at you!). The 1-level delay in spell level is not that big a drawback, considering you get to cherry-pick from the sorceror/wizard list instead.

[grarrrg]

No love for the Underfoot Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling/underfoot-adept-monk-halfling)? (Halfling Monk)
Every 4 levels he counts as 1 size category bigger for the purposes of Tripping things.
Level 1 Small can trip Medium, -1
Level 4 Medium can trip Large, +0
Level 8 Large can trip Huge, +1
Level 12 Huge can trip Gargantuan, +2
Level 16 Gargantuan can trip Colossal, +4
Level 20 Colossal can trip Colossal+, +8
:smalleek:
I do NOT like that the Underfoot Adept and Halfing/Monk Favored Race bonus don't really work together though. Halfling/Monk bonus is +1/2 Stunning Fist/day, and Underfoot Adept trades away Stunning Fist. (yes, you can always just take Stunning Fist as a Feat, but you'll have to wait until level 11 to do so).


They also revamped the Goblin's Favored Class bonuses. Most for the better, some were BADLY worded, others were just VERY powerful (compared to other Favored bonuses anyway).

Previously Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Goblin-Player-Characters)'s had:
Cavalier: Add +2 hit points to the cavalier's mount companion
Druid: Add +2 hit points to the druid's animal companion
Gunslinger: Add +1 to critical hit confirmation rolls made with firearms.
Ranger: Gain a +1 bonus to damage inflicted on dogs, horses, and highest favored enemy bonus.
Rogue: Add +1 skill rank—this skill rank must be spent on Ride or Stealth.
Witch: Add 1 skill rank to the witch's familiar.

Replaced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin) with:
Cavalier Add +1 hit points to the cavalier's mount companion
Druid Add +1 hit points to the druid's animal companion
Gunslinger Add +1/3 on critical hit confirmation rolls made with firearms (maximum bonus of +5)
Ranger Gain a +1/2 bonus on damage dealt to dogs, and horses.
Rogue Add a +1 bonus on the rogue's sneak attack damage rolls during the surprise round or before the target has acted in combat.
Witch Add +1 spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar

Overall MUCH more in line with the other races.
AND Goblin-Rogues now have a USEFUL Favored option.

[QuidEst]

Well, I'm happy that the core races all have full options for alternate favored class bonuses. Race pages in the SRD are getting awfully cluttered. Human looks still more interesting- they can get two assignable +2s or three Skill Focus feats (spread out), and have silly amounts of "Heart of the" options to ignore.

I'm a little disappointed that there weren't and Kitsune/Witch synergy options (considering that's what every Kitsune I've seen so far has been), but the Rogue archetype seemed like an awesome way to be a party face and maintain other roles. (CHA + INT bonuses to all the big face skills means two fourteens are as good as an 18 in CHA, with free skill points to boot.) The racial feats provide nice caster options as well.

Why do Orcs get so many feat options? Elves, a core race, have just a few, and those are all tied together.

[stack]

The Ifrit Wishcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit/wishcrafter-sorcerer-ifrit)Sorcerer looks...terrible. Giving up bloodline spells, feats, and arcana for a 1/day CL +1? Conditional on others wishes? Trash.

A few archetypes are decent or at least playable, but so many of them are pointless aside from flavor.

[North_Ranger]

Sooooo... in general, is the book worth the money?

[Corlindale]

The Ifrit Wishcaster Sorcerer looks...terrible. Giving up bloodline spells, feats, and arcana for a 1/day CL +1? Conditional on others wishes? Trash

It's not 1/day, it's 1/day per person - and it's easy enough to make the wishes of party members fit the spells.

And later on it can get you a massive DC boost when you twist enemy wishes, plus simply a CL boost when using it on enemies. Granted, it is a bit dependent on your enemies, your GM and your creativity how often you'll realistically get to do this.

And you get to pick your own bonus spells, which I'd much prefer to a fixed list of bloodline spells. Even if you can only use them with wishes, and not on yourself.

[QuidEst]

Sooooo... in general, is the book worth the money?

Well, if you're a player, you're only using one race at a time, so the physical copy is definitely too much. The SRD has the options, and that might be more reasonable. For a DM, though, it seems like there are plenty of handy things to populate the world. NPCs don't need to be as high-op, so the racial classes can add a lot more. PDF for ten bucks doesn't sound bad.

(I should note that I haven't purchased it, only seen the stuff on the SRD.)

[Person_Man]

One of my closest friends wrote the Half-Elf section of this book (and has done other freelance work for Paizo). So I'm obviously biased in favor of it. But I'd be interested to hear what other people thought of it.

In general, I think the book is a great addition. My one critique is that it includes far too many minor abilities (which tends to be a issue with most Paizo material). I don't care if I can swap my +2 bonus in one Skill for a +2 bonus in some other Skill. I prefer fewer, more meaningful, "big" abilities, and not a jumble of fidgety situational bonuses. But I'm generally in the minority on such matters.

[QuidEst]

One of my closest friends wrote the Half-Elf section of this book (and has done other freelance work for Paizo). So I'm obviously biased in favor of it. But I'd be interested to hear what other people thought of it.

In general, I think the book is a great addition. My one critique is that it includes far too many minor abilities (which tends to be a issue with most Paizo material). I don't care if I can swap my +2 bonus in one Skill for a +2 bonus in some other Skill. I prefer fewer, more meaningful, "big" abilities, and not a jumble of fidgety situational bonuses. But I'm generally in the minority on such matters.

Dual-Minded is nice- Skill Focus traded in for a stackable Iron Will makes them better for Alchemist, Rogue, and other weak-willed races. The other new options didn't seem that great. I think where Half-Elf shines is the unique favored class options. Added range for an Alchemist's bombs and extra evolution points for a Summoner are the ones I noticed, both of which mesh excellently with the racial archetypes. The Bonded Witch also seems like a nice option- less worrying about a familiar getting killed, plus a daily nuke or buff.

[CTrees]

I just keep finding more to like with this book. As usual, a lot of it is sub-optimal, but there's just. so. much. flavor! I'm still slowly digging my way through the book, as it's probably got the highest crunch-to-fluff ratio I've encountered in a D&D book since the various compendiums.

I love options. More than I should. And this book? All options, and crunch driven flavor. Honestly I think this is my second favorite Pathfinder hardcover, after the Advanced Players' Guide. Strangely, though, I doubt I'm going to ever make use of more than 1% of it, and it'll all be available online anyway.

On balance, is it a good buy? Eh... probably not. After core, the APG, UM, and UC, and Bestiaries are all better value, based on total utility (be honest: how often are wayang variants going to come up in your game?). As a book I want, for more than just pure game utility (including throwing monetary support behind projects like it, in the hope of encouraging "more like this")? ABSOLUTELY.

EDIT: Oh, and the halfling monk? So much fun. Can't quite spring one on my players due to newness of the variant (and because I sent them against a halfling wight monk already, so "what's with all the halfling monks" starts to apply), but... so much fun.

[Psyren]

I'll most likely be picking this up - along with all the other hardcovers from my shiny new FLGS.

Yeah it's all available online, but I'd also like to feed the folks at Paizo (and get some crispy page-turning in my hands at the same time.) Plus you're supposed to have the books (or official PDFs) to play option X in PFS play anyway, so if I'm going to pay I might as well get the dead trees for my dough.

[The Gilded Duke]

Half-Orc section is amazing. Redeemer is the most interesting paladin setup I've ever seen, kinda wanting to join a pathfinder game again just for that class alone. The skulking slayer, with its two handed feint charge sneak attacks also looks like good fun.

My favorite one though, is that feat that makes you a valid target for healing, even while dead.

[Acathala]

What's the Drow like in this book?

[deuxhero]

One of my closest friends wrote the Half-Elf section of this book (and has done other freelance work for Paizo). So I'm obviously biased in favor of it. But I'd be interested to hear what other people thought of it.

So that's why the half-elf stuff avoids the "to avoid power creep, everything must suck" thing!

Got to say Wild Caller is the weak link there. You get some extra evolutions in exchange for not being able to take some evolutions that are bad and you wouldn't have taken anyways. It also stands next to (you know what I mean) Shadow Caller (It's got some support via new evolutions, which in another "Ninjas can't take Extra Rouge Talent" problem, the Wild Caller can take).


It is miles better than Blood God Disciple (Let's make an archetype focused on a creature that can potentially gain swallow whole and have zero notes on how they should interact! Oh! Let's also have it legal to combine with Synthesist and make the text ambitious on if they actually work with eachother! Oh and it doesn't do anything interesting, one ability is actually worse than nothing at all, in the first place even beyond the oddity of the rules). It's not like "turn into viscous monster and devour enemies whole" is unheard of in fantasy.

[Starbuck_II]

Ifrits can have infinite healing (use a torch).
Ifrit party's need no out of combat healing.

[grarrrg]

Ifrits can have infinite healing (use a torch).
Ifrit party's need no out of combat healing.

Keep reading: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit)

The ifrits can heal up to 2 hit points per level per day with this ability, after which it ceases to function.

Yes it will help, but it has a low-ish limit.


edit:Ninja.

From the FUTURE!!

*note: please ignore the "last edited by..." note at the bottom of this post. It does not exist*

[deuxhero]

Ifrits can have infinite healing (use a torch).
Ifrit party's need no out of combat healing.

Look closer.


The ifrits can heal up to 2 hit points per level per day with this ability, after which it ceases to function

edit:Ninja.

[eggs]

I like the Half-elf and Ratfolk Alchemists, and I'm happy to see Tengu got some support. But I probably won't be buying the book.


What's the Drow like in this book?
See for yourself. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-drow) I like the Sorcerer favored class and Blasphemous Covenant benefits especially. Darklands Stalker might not be bad either, but it'd be campaign-dependent.

The archetypes look kind of lackluster. I might see the Fighter as an NPC option.

[deuxhero]

Oh and Wish Granter archetype is annoyingly broken by one little footnote of text


Once the wishcrafter grants a creature's wish using this ability, she cannot use this ability to grant that creature any further wishes for 24 hours.

This wouldn't be so bad, if EVERY single ability the archetype had wasn't using that ability in new ways. Limiting boosts to CL is fine, but verbal component surrogates is of very limited use.

Sure you can get more uses... by burning a swift action and hoping the enemy
1: Speaks a language you, a non-INT focused class in a race with a language tree almost entirely made up languages that everyone that is largely redundant to common for the purpose of language dependent effects.
2: Has a bad will save
3: Isn't immune to mind effecting stuff
4: Can speak.

Eliminating huge chunks of stuff.

Plus it adds a lot more stuff to keep track of. Because the ability recharges after 24 hours and not when you finished resting (like pretty much every other ability a PC gets. The ones that aren't are weekly.), you have to keep track of the exact time you used the ability. The GM also has to keep up with what wishes random mooks have, and as a result of that and Evil mooks being Evil mooks, a lot of wishes are going to be common, which will be boring (You want power? OK, defeat this Summon Monster # and you will get extra XP if you overcome this encounter... just like the last 20 guys).

[StreamOfTheSky]

No love for the Underfoot Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling/underfoot-adept-monk-halfling)? (Halfling Monk)

Umm...it sucks?
- You lose your 1st level bonus feat for absolutely nothing. Oh, excuse me. You reduce the tumble penalty for full speed by 5. Guess what? Tumble at HALF speed is freaking suicidal. So yeah, I stand by my initial statement.
- Underfoot Trip is terrible. The size bonuses will not be much difference until very high levels, and the archetype faces the same core problem normal monk does, inability to obtain Greater Trip, which severely lessens how useful tripping even is in the long run (not having reach weapons hurts the monk badly there, too). The worst part is though, it'll sucker people into thinking they can actually make an effective tripper by playing a halfling monk. Mega trap. And stunning fist at level 1 instead of 8 or 11 was actually a sort of nice feature for monks to get taken away.
- Improved Underfoot Grace...see first point. To be fair, you're trading nothing for nothing, though to also be fair, thanks to Qinggong Monk you could've instead traded that nothing for something. like True Strike or Barkskin. So still abominable.

That archetype is a shining example of exactly what a "trap" is. It looks all spiffy and cool and suckers people into thinking it's good, when in fact under that lustrous gilded shell, a massive stinky turd sits.



They also revamped the Goblin's Favored Class bonuses. Most for the better, some were BADLY worded, others were just VERY powerful (compared to other Favored bonuses anyway).

Previously Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Goblin-Player-Characters)'s had:
Cavalier: Add +2 hit points to the cavalier's mount companion
Druid: Add +2 hit points to the druid's animal companion
Gunslinger: Add +1 to critical hit confirmation rolls made with firearms.
Ranger: Gain a +1 bonus to damage inflicted on dogs, horses, and highest favored enemy bonus.
Rogue: Add +1 skill rank—this skill rank must be spent on Ride or Stealth.
Witch: Add 1 skill rank to the witch's familiar.

Replaced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin) with:
Cavalier Add +1 hit points to the cavalier's mount companion
Druid Add +1 hit points to the druid's animal companion
Gunslinger Add +1/3 on critical hit confirmation rolls made with firearms (maximum bonus of +5)
Ranger Gain a +1/2 bonus on damage dealt to dogs, and horses.
Rogue Add a +1 bonus on the rogue's sneak attack damage rolls during the surprise round or before the target has acted in combat.
Witch Add +1 spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar

Overall MUCH more in line with the other races.
AND Goblin-Rogues now have a USEFUL Favored option.

Other than rogues, who before had a laughbly awful option, it looks like the goblin options were nerfed, pretty much across the board. And the original ones weren't even overpowered, they were FAR more tame than human sorcerer's +1 spell known or half-elf's +1/4 evo point, for example. New ones, aside from the rogue one (which is ok, not great), are just awful and not worth taking pretty much ever. How is this, "Most for the better"? You actually thought pre-ARG goblins were overpowered? Because you surely mustn't mean, "goblins got boosted!"

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hasn't been much so far I've seen on d20pfsrd I've liked.

Orc witch is interesting, I wouldn't mind playing a Half-Orc one of those.

Strix got basically nothing, but now at least you can swag +1 fort save for their suspicious, that's not sexy but useful.

Tiefling got the prehensile tail of vanara as a variant option. Which they can use to hold a metamagic rod. Which, combined with not having a Con penalty, I think firmly establishes them as the ideal (dervish dance) magus race, over elf.

Ratfolk plague-based Alchemist isn't that great mechanically, but it's not really nerfed, either, and is mildly interesting. Shame it doesn't combine w/ Internal Alchemist.

Goblin alchemist's rocket discovery mondo sucks for normal bombs, but for cloud-type ones, it's pretty awesome.

Tengu option for choose your own weapons is interesting, though paizo's done a darn good job of making exotic weapons nothing special. The dual claw attack option is costly, might be worth it for a sneak attacker, though.

Can't find any new option for Fetchlings at all that I like, which is a shame.

I'm appalled and disgusted that they bothered to retcon a bunch of the "overpowered" goblin favored class options yet decided to leave kobolds at like -4 or -6 stat points when almost everyone else is at +2. I get it, dragonwrought kobolds were cheesy, can you please stop punishing them for it already?

Mostly been picking through my favorite races (goblin, ratfolk, strix, tengu, oread, vanara, tiefling) and classes (alchemist, "rogue," "monk," ranger, bard, barbarian -- quotes for the classes I love in theory / the concept of, but are so godawfulhorrible in PF that I can't stand to play them generally) thus far, so little to no insight on the newest game-breaking boons for wizards or what ifrit got and so forth.

[grarrrg]

[Underfoot Adept]...- You lose your 1st level bonus feat for absolutely nothing.
- Underfoot Trip is terrible. The size bonuses will not be much difference until very high levels,...inability to obtain Greater Trip...not having reach weapons hurts the monk badly there, too
- Improved Underfoot Grace...see first point. To be fair, you're trading nothing for nothing
That archetype is a shining example of exactly what a "trap" is. It looks all spiffy and cool and suckers people into thinking it's good, when in fact under that lustrous gilded shell, a massive stinky turd sits.

:smallsigh:
You can only Trip opponents that are at most 1 size category larger than you. At 8th level a Halfling counts as Large size and so can trip Huge. This is something any other Medium character can not do.
Yes they could just 'Enlarge Person', but so can the Halfling.

The whole Acrobatics check thing is very situational, and generally not worth the loss of a feat.

Improved Trip is very nice to have, even if it doesn't get you direct access to Greater Trip. Being able to skip the Combat Expertise requirement, and more importantly for Monks, the INT requirement, is quite handy.

Lastly, you can take more than one archetype!
List of archetypes that pair with no problem (better archetypes are bolded):
Drunken Master
Ki Mystic
Martial Artist
Empty Hand
Healing Hand
Quingong
Sensei

Also, the following archetypes can combine with minor DM allowance (i.e. going by strictest RAW they are incompatible):
Maneuver Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master)
Master of Many Styles

A Maneuver Master Underfoot Adept CAN get Greater Trip as a level 6 bonus feat.

As for lack of Monkish Reach weapons, there is always the possibility of *gasp* dipping another class/taking the Weap. Prof. feat *horrors*.

Another note, is that Maneuver Masters Flurry of Maneuvers works with ANY weapon, not just 'Monk' weapons.


Other than rogues, who before had a laughbly awful option, it looks like the goblin options were nerfed, pretty much across the board. ... How is this, "Most for the better"? You actually thought pre-ARG goblins were overpowered? Because you surely mustn't mean, "goblins got boosted!"

'For the better', 'better' in this case NOT meaning power-wise. 'Better' meaning balance-wise (and 'actually useful' in one case...).
Whoever originally wrote the Goblin Favored bonuses _really_ liked Goblins (and didn't necessarily understand the whole function of Favored bonuses. see 'rogue').

Of the 6 I bothered to compare/list, Rogue and Witch got straight up gains from ARG.
Cavalier/Druid got set more in line with what everyone else was getting (as far as "your _____ gets +HP" goes anyway).
Gunslinger also got knocked down in line with everyone else, going from +1, no limit, to +1/3, limit 5.

Ranger was previously one of the Broken/Too-Good way. I could care less about +damage vs. Dogs/Horses, the problem was the "also your Highest Favored Enemy" it previously had. The reason it was broken was due to the spell Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy), a Swift action 3rd level Ranger spell, that for 1 minute/level made ANYTHING your highest favored enemy.
Assume a 10+ level Ranger:
"Swift Action cast Instant Enemy on your BBEG, he's now my Bestest Favored enemy, I Full Attack him, every hit gets +6 to-hit and +16 damage"
Yeah...

[Khosan]

I'm appalled and disgusted that they bothered to retcon a bunch of the "overpowered" goblin favored class options yet decided to leave kobolds at like -4 or -6 stat points when almost everyone else is at +2. I get it, dragonwrought kobolds were cheesy, can you please stop punishing them for it already?

Goblins, at least, have +4 Dex going for them. That can be significant. Not always useful, but at least useful enough.

Kobolds have...very little. I honestly don't know what it is about them that's supposed to make up for their stat penalties. The natural armor? It's nice, but it's not that good.

Kobold favored class bonuses are...weird. The Witch one stands out to me as the one I'm having the most difficulty understanding why it exists.

[Bhaakon]

Kobolds have...very little. I honestly don't know what it is about them that's supposed to make up for their stat penalties. The natural armor? It's nice, but it's not that good.

To be honest, it's always sort of bothered me that kobolds (and goblins, for that matter) were crunched out as the equal of PC races. Tucker's Kobolds aside, these are the creatures that a low level party takes on a dozen at a time; they're supposed to be pushovers.

I don't see a problem with having some underpowered options outside the core races, just like some of the other races are noticeably stronger (more so at lower levels, where things like a fly speed and decent SLAs are a significant advantage). I only wish they'd separated out some of the less balanced ones into a "NPC races, play at your own risk" chapter.

[QuidEst]

To be honest, it's always sort of bothered me that kobolds (and goblins, for that matter) were crunched out as the equal of PC races. Tucker's Kobolds aside, these are the creatures that a low level party takes on a dozen at a time; they're supposed to be pushovers.

I don't see a problem with having some underpowered options outside the core races, just like some of the other races are noticeably stronger (more so at lower levels, where things like a fly speed and decent SLAs are a significant advantage). I only wish they'd separated out some of the less balanced ones into a "NPC races, play at your own risk" chapter.

Yeah… seeing Kobolds in there is always such a disappointment. "Oh, I can play one? *looks at stats* Oh, I can't." Still, I suppose there's always somebody who has to try a Kobold Monk just to make things challenging.

[Oscredwin]

Am I reading this right that a Tiefling with the fiendish heritage feat can switch his stats around and get a +4 charisma (be a Rakshasa-Spawn and "roll" or choose option 9 on the spell like ability) and have a virtual +2 to charisma for all sorcerer purposes. (Fiendish Sorcery). That's a level one save DC of 18 for first level spells. I mean, at least they don't get the bonus spells known favored class bonus.

[Blisstake]

Am I reading this right that a Tiefling with the fiendish heritage feat can switch his stats around and get a +4 charisma (be a Rakshasa-Spawn and "roll" or choose option 9 on the spell like ability) and have a virtual +2 to charisma for all sorcerer purposes. (Fiendish Sorcery). That's a level one save DC of 18 for first level spells. I mean, at least they don't get the bonus spells known favored class bonus.

Yes, you have a 1% chance of having a character that can do that. Not really overpowered. Plus, that table's been around since nearly when Pathfinder started, that isn't anything new.

[Acathala]

Mostly I like the PF version of Drow.. The Cavern Sniper fighter archtype is very flavourful and I quite like it, though I'm not sure how effective imbuing shots will be at later levels. You'd also have to keep investing in drow noble feats to get more uses of your spell-like abilities.
Demon Apostle cleric's main feature seems to be a Quasit. I hope they're better than I remember in 3.5.
Two minor gripes, could have done with a couple more archtypes like a TWFer or an Arachnomancer that actually works okay.
Secondly I felt that basically Improved spell resistance could have needed just two feat rather than the three it currently needs. Just a personal opinion.

[grarrrg]

After perusing the feats, I can across some interesting ones. Not (necessarily) the Powerful ones, and not the "what?" ones either. Just plain old interesting (to me anyway).

Huntmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/huntmaster-human) (Human)
...you are treated as one level higher when determining the abilities of your animal companion or mount granted, it is only 1 level, AND there are limits on which creature types you can apply this to, BUT it does NOT have the "maximum bonus equal to your character level" restriction that Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) does.
Minor Joy!

Risky Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling) (Halfling)
You can choose to take a –1 penalty to AC to gain a +2 bonus on melee damage rolls against creatures two or more size categories larger than you.
It scales at the same rate that Power Attack does.
I kind of want to make a Greatsword wielding Barbarian Halfling OF DOOM now (hopefully with Reduce Person cast...).

Trap Wrecker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/trap-wrecker-orc) (Orc)

You can attempt to disarm a trap by striking it with a melee weapon instead of making a Disable Device check
HULK DISABLE TRAPS!

[QuidEst]

HULK DISABLE TRAPS!


At the GM's discretion, some traps may not be susceptible to this feat.

Man… I had such high hopes for punching a pit trap so hard it disappeared. XD

[Andvare]

As I read it, the new Eidolon evolutions are actually hide-in-plain-sight in disguise, as they grant concealment and:


Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.

At only two points, that is quite cheap for such a useful ability.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Goblins, at least, have +4 Dex going for them. That can be significant. Not always useful, but at least useful enough.

Kobolds have...very little. I honestly don't know what it is about them that's supposed to make up for their stat penalties. The natural armor? It's nice, but it's not that good.

Kobold favored class bonuses are...weird. The Witch one stands out to me as the one I'm having the most difficulty understanding why it exists.

I wasn't complaining about goblins sucking. I was complaining that they bothered to "balance" some favored class options, but couldn't be bothered to balance an entire freaking racial option! If they just hadn't changed anything to conflict w/ prior printings, you could say, "well, they didn't want to retcon any rules..." But...there's no excuse here.

I don't mind if kobolds are weaker than other races. There's no need to make them insanely, stupidly, unplayably weaker, though! A "+2 dex, -2 str" or "+2 dex, -2 str and cha" (or whatever you think they should be penalized in) is plenty to make them clearly weaker.

Orcs likewise got shafted, but they weren't too bad off, at least.

[StreamOfTheSky]

:smallsigh:
You can only Trip opponents that are at most 1 size category larger than you. At 8th level a Halfling counts as Large size and so can trip Huge. This is something any other Medium character can not do.
Yes they could just 'Enlarge Person', but so can the Halfling.

But the medium character will have a better trip bonus. :p

The size thing takes far too long to get useful. How many things by level 10 are flying, teleporting, incorporeal, have lots of legs, no legs (like a serpent), an ooze, etc...?
Medium dude w/ enlarge is simple and effective and works up to size Huge enemies. Halfling monk can't get to gargantuan foes until level...20, right? Maybe 16 w/ enlarge? That just doesn't cut it.


Improved Trip is very nice to have, even if it doesn't get you direct access to Greater Trip. Being able to skip the Combat Expertise requirement, and more importantly for Monks, the INT requirement, is quite handy.

Normal monks can get it w/o pre-reqs, too, just takes 5 levels longer. Not a huge deal. Weapon-based tripping doesn't provoke anyway, so all the feat is doing is +2. Weapon Focus is a +1 and isn't even specific to tripping. *shrug*


Lastly, you can take more than one archetype!

Doesn't change the fact that this particular archetype is a bad trade.


A Maneuver Master Underfoot Adept CAN get Greater Trip as a level 6 bonus feat.

Or he could just be a human Maneuver Master w/ enlarge person potions.


As for lack of Monkish Reach weapons, there is always the possibility of *gasp* dipping another class/taking the Weap. Prof. feat *horrors*.

Why even be a monk if you're going to do weapon-based tripping? Just be a Lore Warden Fighter.


Another note, is that Maneuver Masters Flurry of Maneuvers works with ANY weapon, not just 'Monk' weapons.

Cool. I agree, Maneuver Master is a nice dip or multiclass to combine w/ a class that can actually fight.


'For the better', 'better' in this case NOT meaning power-wise. 'Better' meaning balance-wise (and 'actually useful' in one case...).

None of the former ones you listed were nearly as strong as +1/4 evo point or +1 sorc spell known, among other things that *haven't* been found to be too powerful by paizo.


Of the 6 I bothered to compare/list, Rogue and Witch got straight up gains from ARG.
Cavalier/Druid got set more in line with what everyone else was getting (as far as "your _____ gets +HP" goes anyway).
Gunslinger also got knocked down in line with everyone else, going from +1, no limit, to +1/3, limit 5.

Yes, and those all suck. So...good job? And why does it have to be "in line"? What about all the new FC options that are identical to what other core races get but...limited to one specific thing. Like, "+1 wizard spell known, but it has to be fire."


Ranger was previously one of the Broken/Too-Good way. I could care less about +damage vs. Dogs/Horses, the problem was the "also your Highest Favored Enemy" it previously had. The reason it was broken was due to the spell Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy), a Swift action 3rd level Ranger spell, that for 1 minute/level made ANYTHING your highest favored enemy.
Assume a 10+ level Ranger:
"Swift Action cast Instant Enemy on your BBEG, he's now my Bestest Favored enemy, I Full Attack him, every hit gets +6 to-hit and +16 damage"
Yeah...

So...about as good as a paladin of equal level smiting evil?

A martial doing more damage isn't going to break anything. Seriously, why doesn't half-elf's +1/4 evo points bother you? If my ranger could choose "+1 damage per level to guys I cast Instant Enemy on" or "Every 4 levels, you get reach, or claws, or something else totally awesome!" I know what I'd pick...

[grarrrg]

Against my better judgment...


Before I start replying, let me point out that we are comparing an Underfoot Adept to 'other Trip focused character'.
More specifically, we are comparing it to other Monk/Monk-Archetypes to see if it is worth taking for a Trip focused character.

(concerning Underfoot Adept in general)

But the medium character will have a better trip bonus. :p

No.
"he acts as if he is one size larger for the purposes of determining the maximum size of creatures he can trip and when determining his CMB and CMD for purposes of a trip combat maneuver."

At level 4, they would have the same bonus. At level 8+ the Halfling would have the better bonus.
Yes, the Halfling does have a STR penalty, so comparing a Halfling to a +STR race the Halfling would have a -2. If you are comparing DEX based build though, the Halfling is back to being equal.


Medium dude w/ enlarge is simple and effective and works up to size Huge enemies. Halfling monk can't get to gargantuan foes until level...20, right? Maybe 16 w/ enlarge? That just doesn't cut it.

This part of your argument is poor:
"Medium can trip Huge, so a Halfling that can't trip Gargantuan until 20 must suck"
?
An Underfoot Adept is equivalent to a Medium character at level 4.
Level 4 is definitely low enough to "cut it".

(Concerning getting Improved Trip)

Normal monks can get it w/o pre-reqs, too, just takes 5 levels longer. Not a huge deal.

You have already implied that tripping is 'worthless' at higher levels, so the sooner you can get the Feat the better. 5 levels is a long time if you start at level 1.



(Concerning not being relevant to this discussion)

How many things by level 10 are flying, teleporting, incorporeal, have lots of legs, no legs (like a serpent), an ooze, etc...?
This effects EVERY character that tries to Trip anything EVER. It has NO bearing on 'Underfoot Adept' vs. 'any other Tripper'


Weapon-based tripping doesn't provoke anyway, so all the feat is doing is +2. Weapon Focus is a +1 and isn't even specific to tripping. *shrug*

...and adding a +1 enhancement to a weapon isn't specific to Tripping AND you get +1 damage from it too! AND it doesn't cost a Feat either!
And it's not really all that relevant because a Trip focused character would probably want the feat anyway, especially if they wanted Greater Trip.


Or he could just be a human Maneuver Master w/ enlarge person potions.

Or he could be a Half-Orc Fighter>Living Monolith with 13+ Int.
Or he could be a Synthesist with 13+ Int and Feats to burn.
Or...
Or...


Why even be a monk if you're going to do weapon-based tripping? Just be a Lore Warden Fighter.

I'll let you reply to yourself for this one:


Cool. I agree, Maneuver Master is a nice dip or multiclass to combine w/ a class that can actually fight.




Doesn't change the fact that this particular archetype is a bad trade.

Let's review what is "traded"
Lost:
Level 1 Bonus feat
Stunning Fist
High Jump

Gained:
Improved Trip
Counting as larger for Trip purposes
Lessened penalties on Acrobatics while moving.

Lets see, we trade a Feat for a Feat, so that's a wash.
We trade another Feat for a scaling bonus to Trip CMB and Trip target sizes.
We also trade a "meh" ability for a "meh" ability.

"bad" trade?
Looks like they break even to me.
And Underfoot possibly comes out on top after level 8.

[Arbane]

Man… I had such high hopes for punching a pit trap so hard it disappeared. XD

Cave it in to fill it with rubble? Sounds perfectly workable to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Man… I had such high hopes for punching a pit trap so hard it disappeared. XD

Also only works on non-magical traps. So bad DM or magic trap, defeat this.

[QuidEst]

Cave it in to fill it with rubble? Sounds perfectly workable to me. :smallbiggrin:

… that is a remarkably sensible explanation. XD My guy was just punching the hole itself until it gave up on existing.

[grarrrg]

SWEET! Merfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk) can take a Alt-Racial Trait to get a Movement speed of _15_ FEET!

But seriously, 15ft. is not much, but it's enough to bump them from "Aquatic Campaign ONLY" into the territory of "I'll consider it".


+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha
Yes, ALL Pluses, net +6 stats!
+2 Natural Armor Bonus
Immune Trip
Low-Light Vision
AND they are Amphibious with a 30ft. Swim Speed (50ft. Swim withOUT the land speed option).

Their other Alt-Racial options, Favored Class bonuses, and Racial Feats may as well be non-existent. But they are still a solid choice with the right build.


As for the low movement, throw on a level of Barbarian, or a level of a class with Travel Domain access, or some levels of Monk, or...
If nothing else, in Light Armor you are the same speed as a Halfling in Full Plate.

OH! Summoner is a decent choice with those stats, when Aspect hits at level 10 grow a pair of Legs... Yeah... let THAT mental image sink in a little....

[Stone Heart]

SWEET! Merfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk) can take a Alt-Racial Trait to get a Movement speed of _15_ FEET!

But seriously, 15ft. is not much, but it's enough to bump them from "Aquatic Campaign ONLY" into the territory of "I'll consider it".


+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha
Yes, ALL Pluses, net +6 stats!
+2 Natural Armor Bonus
Immune Trip
Low-Light Vision
AND they are Amphibious with a 30ft. Swim Speed (50ft. Swim withOUT the land speed option).

Their other Alt-Racial options, Favored Class bonuses, and Racial Feats may as well be non-existent. But they are still a solid choice with the right build.


As for the low movement, throw on a level of Barbarian, or a level of a class with Travel Domain access, or some levels of Monk, or...
If nothing else, in Light Armor you are the same speed as a Halfling in Full Plate.

OH! Summoner is a decent choice with those stats, when Aspect hits at level 10 grow a pair of Legs... Yeah... let THAT mental image sink in a little....

Yeah, because of this book we will be doing an aquatic campaign soon (including a strix in the crows nest) and mine will be a Merfolk with the 15 foot speed, and might I suggest the feat fleet? Now you are just as fast as your average gnome, dwarf or halfling.

[CTrees]

… that is a remarkably sensible explanation. XD My guy was just punching the hole itself until it gave up on existing.

You were imagining Superboy/Superman Prime?

[QuidEst]

You were imagining Superboy/Superman Prime?

No, but he certainly fits. XP