UMD for offense or debuff [aka: when sneak does not apply, UMD]

[Fitz10019]

What are some good low-level offense/debuff spells to UMD via wands (for the economy)? For instance, when you are a rogue and your DM does not allow the crystals and spells that counteract immunities to sneak attack. So, concentrating on offense and debuff:

debuff: Hold Person, Blindness, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement
offense: Heat/Chill Metal, Inflict Moderate (?)

What does the Playground recommend?

[Curmudgeon]

For instance, when you are a rogue and your DM does not allow the crystals and spells that counteract immunities to sneak attack.
...
What does the Playground recommend?
Find a different DM. These are pretty standard sources: Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium (or Complete Adventurer before that). If you don't have access to a reasonable number of supplements the many weaknesses in the Rogue class can't be properly addressed. If your DM is specifically excluding these items then the situation is even worse: you're screwed by fiat.

[Fitz10019]

Find a different DM. These are pretty standard sources: Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium (or Complete Adventurer before that). If you don't have access to a reasonable number of supplements the many weaknesses in the Rogue class can't be properly addressed. If your DM is specifically excluding these items then the situation is even worse: you're screwed by fiat.

Consider it a mental exercise, and try to be more creative. "Core only" is not a fiat.

[hoverfrog]

Just SRD first and second level spells:

Debuff: Reduce Person, Animate Rope, Levitate (let's see how good a fighter he is 5' above the ground), Bane, Shatter, Zone of Truth (for very specific cases)
Offense: Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Sleep, Cause Fear, Command, Summon Monster, Hold Person, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon

[Fitz10019]

Yes, but which are worthwhile? If you are a 12th level rogue, which wands should you have for this situation?

[hewhosaysfish]

I'm confused to see both Hold Person and Reduce Person suggested here.
Most of the enemies which can't be Sneak Attacked are not "Person"s...

[hoverfrog]

All of them. :smallsmile:

What can you use without giving away your position (and sneak attacks)?

For debuffs if I had to choose one I'd choose Grease and Blindness as a second choice. A blind enemy loses all dexterity bonuses to AC which means you can sneak attack every round. Definitely worth having but Grease is just so much fun.

For straight offensive ability and maintaining your anonymity in the shadows I'd probably choose Cause Fear. A shaken opponent is less likely to spot you because of the -2 penalty of skill checks, is less of a threat in combat due to the weakened attacks and damage and is more susceptible (weaker saves) when you hit him with your Command wand to drop what he's carrying or fall prone to the ground. Both of which make him easier to hit (no shield or an attack of opportunity when he tries to get up).

[Killer Angel]

What are some good low-level offense/debuff spells to UMD via wands (for the economy)? For instance, when you are a rogue and your DM does not allow the crystals and spells that counteract immunities to sneak attack. So, concentrating on offense and debuff:

debuff: Hold Person, Blindness, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement
offense: Heat/Chill Metal, Inflict Moderate (?)

What does the Playground recommend?

I suggest to avoid debuffs with ST, 'cause you'll be stuck with low DCs (easy to save against, for enemies with CR 12). So:
Hold Person: no
Ray of enfeeblement: yes
Glitterdust: marginally useful

and so on.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's a little higher level, but I'm a big fan of wands of Fell Drain magic missile for debuffing.

[Fitz10019]

I'm confused to see both Hold Person and Reduce Person suggested here.
Most of the enemies which can't be Sneak Attacked are not "Person"s...

Most, yes. This thread was inspired by someone trying to defeat Fortification, so all Person spells are worth mentioning.


I suggest to avoid debuffs with ST, 'cause you'll be stuck with low DCs

Ah, good tactical advice.