Looking for some assistance in designing 3.5 encounters

[SpicyCrab]

Hello all, I am a new DM and I am DMing for some very experienced players. I know this is a bit of a long post, but I was looking for some help from some experienced DMs and I know this is the place to check.

(PS: Hello, first post)

Two of these guys are good, and pretty consistently outplay my NPCs and destroy my encounters. The others are newer/heavy roleplayers that avoid maxing.

Examples:

I had a special goblin NPC four levels higher than the barbarian. This NPC is defeated by the barbarian grappling oh no, and completely disabling him thanks to the -5 grapping size penalty. Whoops.

The party made a series of exceptionally foolish decisions, culminating in them being surrounded at level 1 by 25 CR 1/2 enemies, a blink dog, and a level four fighter. The min maxed barbarian cleaved people left and right (including said level 4 fighter) while his warlock cohort blasted every one in range. Even at -4 penalty to hit, the warlock EASILY hit the touch AC of almost every enemy that he fired at.

They still barely lived but I had designed the encounter to 'force' them to run, since they had made so many poor decisions before that. Instead, they brute forced through and killed every one.

This is exacerbated because the other players in their group are not nearly as experienced, so to balance for my two min maxy friends without overwhelming the other party members is an exact science probably better left to a more experienced DM... but here I am any way.

Any way, I am designing an encounter, and I figured their enemies would be prepared this time, so they have sent in an Aasimar Enchanter with pretty crazy DCs on his spells, along with a pack of blink dogs to track down the party and destroy them.

Knowing my players and their skill level, my initial instinct was to send in a level 4 wizard and somewhere around 8 blink dogs to provide a pretty epic/difficult challenge. Of course, there is a part of me worried that this might be MUCH too much...

However, I am worried about just throwing FAR too many enemies at them and listening to my players whinge and whine (probably rightfully so) as they are ripped to pieces.

So what I am really struggling with is designing encounters that are appropriate for the party, which should be challenging enough to bring them to their knees without completely destroying them, and I have to admit I am slightly mystified by the whole CR thing, which seems to be a pretty loose guideline for encounter difficulty.

So here is my question:

As for my bling dog + enchanter encounter, what should I throw at them for that?

Also, in the future, how should I go about balancing CR for my team to keep it challenging but fair?

any offhand low level/low power encounter ideas?

[Tim Proctor]

Well here is what I do, 1) put the group in an environment that is not beneficial to them, i.e. really hot weather. 2) have them hit a trap so soften them, 3) have them take out all the minions and use their spells and rages on them and then have them fight the boss.

But what level is the group, what is the exact composition, and how many are there?

[SpicyCrab]

Thanks, sorry, I should have mentioned that.

The min maxer PCs are level 2.

Level two barbarian with an extra rage per day (role play stuff), specced for cleave, wields a battle axe with d12 damage + something like 8 damage on hit and +8 to hit.

It's crazy trying to balance for that dude.

Level two warlock specced for 1d6 archer style, he has at will darkness and at will blindsight... I am actually not so worried since they are fighting Aasimar and Blink dogs right now...


Role players a bit different:

Level 2 ranger specced for two weapon fighting, with brutal throw and double throwing axe.

The last player on the team rolled an extremely weak character and is kind of a social engineer. He is a bard.

The fifth player is extremely inexperienced and usually picks a wizard and dies early in eveyr fight, every campaign.

The min maxers probably killed 75% of the enemies so far, followed by the brutal throw ranger.

As far as encounter makeup, role play/plot wise I have full ageny to throw blink dogs and Aasimar at them... dwarves, elves, foot soldiers...

There is a half celestial over boss they don't know about who would easily kikll every one.

Right now the encounter I am most concerned with is blink dogs + enchanter...

Alright

[Feralventas]

Here's my first thought when reading your initial post; You were attempting to force the players into a situation where they had to retreat rather than face their foes down, but failed to instil the idea that they could not win, and they proceeded to wipe the floor with the enemies.

I tend to disagree with the idea of "forcing" the players to back down or bail out. There have been situations where my players have decided that they couldn't win a fight and decided to run, and others where I felt that it was time to really challenge them and gave them the option to leave, and they toughed it out and came out victorious. Both of these are valid situations, but neither should have an "intended" outcome; rather, they should have contingencies for both or more possible results, though they may all reach the same eventual conclusion if you're trying to bring the players along a particular narrative.

Say, for example, your party gets to this difficult and dangerous encounter.
-If they don't feel they can win, they retreat, fall back to safety and in doing so meet up with a local hermit, who can lead them around the encounter via a set of secret caverns, thus getting the PC's back on track.
-If they Do proceed with the fight and win, they won't need the hermits' aid, and instead arrive at their destination as normal.
-If they stick around and lose? Prison break scenario where the PC's must shuck their bonds and get their gear back before dealing with their enemy head-on, or sneak out of the enemy camp to take their objective by stealth instead of force or aid.

[Tim Proctor]

Well yeah you have creatures that fall right into their traps, no wonder they are winning so much.

Throw Traps at them a good Spiked Pit Trap should help out before a fight.
CR 2; mechanical; location trigger; automatic reset; DC 20 Reflex save avoids; 20 ft. deep (2d6, fall); multiple targets (first target in each of two adjacent 5-ft. squares); pit spikes (Atk +10 melee, 1d4 spikes per target for 1d4+2 each); Search DC 18; Disable Device DC 15. Market Price: 1,600 gp.

Are they an evil group? Cause blink dogs are usually good guys so I'm just wondering from a roleplaying standpoint.

But with 5 people at lvl 2 you should easily be able to have them fight CR 3 creatures. I'd suggest something like an Assassin Vine so that it gets the jump on them grapples the Warlock and then entangles the Barbarian right away. Or a Shadow I'm guessing a 1d6 str damage will make the Barbarian feel awkward, especially since he probably wont be able to hit it.

They should win the battle but it should be enough for those players to know that you are on to them. A pack of Wolves is also good because the trip attack, it'll force the Barbarian to actually defend people.

I would also throw in stuff to force the other two players to shine, wilderness stuff for the Ranger and social stuff for the Bard. If you keep throwing combat stuff at them then yes the Warlock and the Barbarian will shine the most and the wizard will always die.

I'd look at having them do a small cave crawl that has an aspect suited for each of them. Have the treasure chest sealed with Arcane Lock so that the Wizard has to open it otherwise they don't get any benefits. Have them robbed by rogues at night during their camp routine, that way the barbarian gets all his gear stolen (should have put points in listen), but the ranger can save the day just after they already have the barbarian's axe. Give them an impossible situation like they have to cross a river and the ferry man who is a retired solider say lvl 6 wont let them get passed until the morning but they need to, so the bard has to convince him to do it.

I'd look less at ways to shut the others down and more on ways to incorporate everyone's characters into the fray.

[Togo]

If you want to scare the PCs, debuffing them is more scary than losing hp. PCs lose hp all the time, and losing more just confirms to them that they should make a last ditch effort to kill the foe - generally safer than running away.

So... paralysis, poison (although not against that barbarian), curse, ray of enfeeblement, grapple*, and so. The advantage of these is you can hit them as hard as you like without killing anyone.

(sending a mid CR creature to grapple the barbarian sounds like a a bad idea because he'd lose. But that's not the point. The point is that every round spent grappling the barbarian is a round the barbarian doesn't spend cleaving everythnig in sight, and the barbarian will be doing far less damage in grapple than he would with an axe)

The other point you're missing is ranged attacks. The brutal throw ranger is presumably pretty good, but the barbarian is relying on getting close. let him rage, then withdraw, hide, shoot, repeat. He'll run out of rage, be less effective in combat, and be unable to rage again without exhausting himself.

Defense against the warlock is simple. More hp. Warlocks reliably hit every turn. That's the point. What they don't do is much damage. Yuo might also try putting the foes in darkness (you have drow, right?) since a miss chance doesn't care what your to-hit is.

The bard may seem underpowered, but he's probably part of the reason the barabarian and the ranger are doing so well. You should make a point of this. Encourage him to work out how much extra damage his bardsong is causing in the form of the barabarian and the ranger hitting things. Contribution to combat is partly a perception thing.

Finally... you wanted them to run away? From blink dogs? How were they supposed to escape?

PCs very rarely retreat - It's not just you, it's a notoriously hard thing to achieve.

[Blind Orc]

The rest of the party can't see well inside the warlocks darkness too, right? Because it feels like a bad tactic.

You want a hard encounter?
First of all don't use a wizard. They die fast. Like your 5th player :smallbiggrin:

Here is one encounter that should challenge endanger your players (EL5):
1 blink dog (cr2)
2 elf fighter1/warrior1 (cr1) (we will call them rangers)
4 elf warrior1 (cr1/2) (2 will attack from behind with spears and 2 will tank)

The 4 warriors will hold the PCs away from the 2 rangers, and the blink dog will distract them attacking them from behind.

The encounter should have 1600gp treasure. I never plan to make my PCs rich for killing humanoids over monsters, so I keep an eye on NPC gear value but I won't blindly follow it.

Using elite array 25 point buy:
2 x
Elf, Warrior 1: Medium Humanoid (Elf); CR 1/2; HD 1d8+4; hp 8;
Init +3; Spd 20 Ft.; AC 19 (+3 Dex,+4 Armor,+2 Shield) , touch 13 , flat footed 16; Base Atk +1; Grp +3;
Atk Scimitar +3 melee (1d6+2 18-20/×2) or Club +3 melee (1d6 ×2) or Dagger +4 ranged (1d4 19-20/x2); Space 5ft;
SQ Low-light vision; SR 0; SA ; AL N; SV Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0; Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9;
Feats Toughness;
Possesions: Scale mail 50gp, Heavy Steel Shield 20gp, Scimitar 15gp, Club -, 2 Dagger 4gp,2 Potion of Shield of Faith +2 50gp (they drink 1 the first round)

2x
Elf, Warrior 1: Medium Humanoid (Elf); CR 1/2; HD 1d8+1; hp 5;
Init +3; Spd 20 Ft.; AC 17 (+3 Dex,+4 Armor) , touch 13 , flat footed 14; Base Atk +1; Grp +3;
Atk Ranseur +3 melee (2d4+3 ×3) or Scimitar +3 melee (1d6+2 18-20/×2) or Dagger +4 ranged (1d4 19-20/x2); Space 5ft/Reach 10ft;
SQ Low-light vision; SR 0; SA ; AL N; SV Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0; Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9;
Feats Combat Reflexes;
Possesions: Scale mail 50gp, Ranseur 10gp, Heavy Steel Shield 20gp,Scimitar 15gp, 2 Dagger 4gp, Oil of Cure light wounds 50gp (not gonna use it)
(They have +6 on disarm attacks, if they get disarmed they get their shields on as a move action)

2x
Elf, Fighter 1/Warrior 1: Medium Humanoid (Elf); CR 1; HD 1d10+1d8+2; hp 12;
Init +3; Spd 20 Ft.; AC 17 (+3 Dex,+4 Armor) , touch 13 , flat footed 14; Base Atk +2; Grp +4;
Atk Longbow +6* ranged (1d6+2 ×3) or Falchion +3 melee (2d4+3 18-20/×2) or Dagger +4 ranged (1d4 19-20/x2); Space 5ft;
SQ Low-light vision; SR 0; SA ; AL N; SV Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +0; Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9;
Feats Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot; (*+7 to attack if target is within 30ft) (Remember that they take -4 if they attack someone who is in melee) (btw that applies to ranged touch attacks, like your warlocks)
Possesions: Scale mail 50gp,Falchion 75gp, Mwk Composite +2 Long 600gp, 2 Dagger 4gp, 2 potion of cure moderate wounds 600gp (they drink only one of those after they take more than 8 damage)
If they are forced into melee they take 5ft back and rapid shot the guy. If they can't do that for some reason, they get their Falchions out.

If the PCs sell everything that isn't potion, and you use the potions like noted they will get 1717gp as loot.

The 2 back rangers wait every round till someone is not in melee. Then they rapid shot him.
The tanks do 1 attack and move 5ft to get out of melee (to let the rangers kill the PC) when they do the rangers stop their wait and play.
The 2 guys with the Ranseur try to disarm anyone who tries to pass through (you should learn the rules on AoO's very well) they stand always 5ft behind the tanks, this means that they too move 5ft back each round.
The blink dog just lol.

I take no responsibility for anything bad that happens

[eggs]

If 27 NPCs aren't steamrolling 5 level 1s (without any exceptionally competent casters anyway), I'd look more closely at tactics than encounter design.

[SpicyCrab]

Thanks for the tips, all.

PS, yes the party is evil, they burn down granaries and murder innocent children so they deserve whatever they get ;p

Also, can someone elaborate on the 'point buy' technique that was mentioned earlier?

I will let you know how it goes :)

[Blind Orc]

its in dmg page 169

[White_Drake]

At the beginning of chapter six in the Dungeon Master's Guide the point buy is shown. It is an alternative to rolling ability scores in which you spend "points" to improve your abilities from their base scores of eight. Depending on the power level of the campaign there are variable amounts of points.

[Runestar]

Cleave only works once a round. How is the barb "cleaving left and right" while the foes apparently just stand there acting like limp noodles?

[Malacode]

Min/Maxxing requires sacrifice, especially at level 2. Find out what they suck at, or didn't build for, and where that overlaps with the strengths of the other two party members (First thing I'd check is their ability to deal with social situations, or "Mystery and investigation" style games, given that the other two are into RP). Then, -let your party be awesome-, but let -everyone- be awesome.

My advice would be to run a scenario where someone the PCs care about (Someone with a personality that the RPers enjoy, and with the ability to dispense cool weapons and plot coupons like candy for the other two) is killed (With a weapon similar to one a party member wields). This will take a little set up, but if the payoff works you'll be an awesome DM. The idea is to have them hired to investigate the death. Have them be mentioned in the will, so they get good stuff, but only if they can"
A) Prove their innocence or
B) Show someone else's guilt.

Have them have to escape/fight off hired goons in order to stay away from those that want them dead (So the stuff in the will goes to someone else), while they have to talk to people to work out what happened.

That way, you'll have combat for the combat people, which they'll be good at and enjoy doing, and social stuff for the social people, which they'll be good at and enjoy doing. You'll also have combat for the social people, which they'll suck at and have trouble with, and social stuff for the combat people, which they'll suck at and at have trouble with. Suddenly, everyone is awesome and everyone has problems that they can't auto-fix. Do not let the combat people do all the combat and social people do all the investigating. Have everyone try their hand at everything. It makes the victories in the places where they do dominate all the sweeter.
Okay, your party is Evil. Does that mean that this won't work? Of course it can work! Have a dead NPC they like, a reward they want and an enemy they hate but can't kill, only discredit. They will do anything do follow your plot if you give them that, alignment be damned. Oh, and at the end, once they've "won" and gotten the goodies, let them take out the guy that was trying to off them. It'll be satisfying, and lets them feel like they're growing in power.

[nedz]

Barbarians are a little front loaded, especially w.r.t. melee, but their will saves tend to be poor. This character will fade into the background a little as the game develops.

Warlocks are no great threat, but it seems that you may be over-playing the Darkness effect. You might want to read up on this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) because it is not as good as it seems.

Like others have suggested you need to try out different tactics, and many of the encounter suggestions above are good. You have to accept that you are on a learning curve and it will take you a while to get up to speed, in fact you may be playing catch up for the whole campaign.

I'm fairly sure I could cause them a great deal of trouble with a single goblin rogue :smallsmile: What are their spot skills like ? Just have the goblin hide in the edge of a wood. When they get within 30 feet he looses an arrow (with sneak) and high tails it into the trees, (hiding at the end of his move when out of sight). The PCs will most probably charge in and go past him, the goblin though doubles back (still hiding) and takes a pot shot at the stragglers before dashing back into cover. Rinse and repeat. Expect this encounter to last 20+ rounds and be resolved by the Ranger.