How do you actually play a gish?

[Half-Orc Rage]

I have seen many threads about gish builds, but not much about actually playing one. (Actually there's a big divide between building a char and actual play, but I digress.) This would seem difficult, especially at lower levels where most campaigns start. First level as the melee class makes sense as you're more resilient. After that, though, you're not wearing armor and you're squishier than your fellow melee types. As a caster, your advancement is slower and having the sword skill doesn't do a lot for you if you stay back and cast. Casting in melee is obviously hazardous, at least until you get whatever prestige ability that protects you. You can buff yourself, but in my experience you don't get a lot of rounds of this before your comrades get irritated with you, or even have the fight be over.

How do you do this effectively? I really like the fighter/mage (or paladin/sorceror) as a concept, because characters like Elric, Rand al'Thor, and Vlad Taltos are awesome. I would love to have one in a good, long term campaign but I wouldn't want to either die or be a drain on the party until high levels.

[Morcleon]

Duskblade? It gets full BAB and casting from level one. Also, you get to combine your spells with your melee attacks at level 3. The spell list is relatively small, but the spells per day are amazing. This (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html) is a pretty good handbook for a beginning duskblade.

[eggs]

How do you do this effectively?Play as a caster who happens to have a spear until you get the spells you need for the front line.

Buffing, debuffing, and dropping battlefield control all stay useful, even if they're a spell level behind.

[Honest Tiefling]

Probably depends a great deal on your gish build of choice. However, I think the idea of a mage who spends time in combat studying it, perhaps from the back lines and testing spells on Boris the Strong and Fair before deciding to either forego magical power or seize physical prowess alongside it is reasonable.

[Randomguy]

Gishes work better at higher levels (around level 10+, I think) for this reason. At those levels, you've got quickened spells, rods of quicken, swift action spells and longer duration buffs, which helps.

At lower levels, if you're basically a caster that goes into melee when you run out of spells, rather than pulling out a crossbow.

For buffing, in general I think you've only got 1 round before you should start fighting, but there are a lot of buffs that last for 1 min/level or even 10 min/level, and you can cast those before combat starts.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, you should limit yourself to 1 round of buff time when you're at low level. You should have some different things prepared, so just use whichever is best in the current situation. You have to be frugal with your spells, especially when you don't yet have many available. Definitely don't try to be the party's only melee at low levels.

[Icewraith]

Get whatever buffs and battlefield control you can/need depending on the encounter and go hit things. If you need to drop your battlefield control while in melee, 5-foot step out or to where you take the fewest AoOs.

At low levels, Mage Armor is quite good and lasts a few hours, and Shield is fantastic at almost any level, if spell slots are an issue save it for challenging encounters and dungeons so you get the most use out of it. Shield is also more valuable if you can get your hands on a Pearl of Power 1, since you can prep it once and then have the flexibility to recall it if you need it.

Flank for your rogue, flank for your fighter. You're not encumbered by armor and your AC is usually better than the Fighter in full plate if your Dex is reasonable, so you're an awesome flanker.

You probably have some decent BFC with sleep, color spray, grease etc as well, just use your slots wisely.

Spells go up from there- highlights include Haste, Glitterdust, Greater Mage Armor, (Greater) Magic Weapon (this is better for Clerics IIRC they get it at second), Bull's Strength etc before +attribute items become common, Scorching Ray (I know, boo direct damage, but it may be wise if Trolls become a prominent feature in your campaign), Greater Mighty Wallop, Dispel Magic, Alter Self, etc.

For offence- Wraithstrike. Get a collection of Pearl of Power 2s as you level.

Also: displacement, mirror image, the improved versions of those, various energy resistances/immunities, Solid Fog etc,

Awesome high level spells: Foresight, Time Stop,

Weird (what? Weird? Really? Don't opponents get two saves vs it- yes they do. Isn't it mind-effecting? Yes it is. But many opponents at high levels are also not immune to those things or will be after your Greater Dispel Magic, depending on the level of optimization in the campaign. Against appropriate opponents it's an automatic aoe stun that doesn't hit your allies- the death effect etc. is just gravy. If you don't have the vaguest idea of what opponents you will be facing at high level, discover the joys of divination spells)

Shortly after third level spells you should be able to avoid AoOs and wear armor for class abilities, but even if your progression is delayed most of the tactics are still valid. The only things you're really missing out on are things like enchanted armor spikes for loading up on warning etc, and you really only have the gold for that sort of nonsense at higher levels anyways.

You're still going to be using your spells for buffing, debuffing, and crowd control since you can always do damage by hitting things with your sword, the tactics don't change that much, you just get to be less careful about getting stuck in melee, and monsters with reach aren't as big an issue.

Also, if you're looking for other things to do with your spell slots as a Gish, consider arcane strike and maybe taking power attack. Once you get iterative attacks, you can wraithstrike, load up on power attack, and blow a higher level spell slot into arcane strike for 3-4+ almost guaranteed to connect attacks (you have haste going right?) with each swing gaining +(spell level)d4 + 2xpower attack on top of your normal damage. Don't do this on mooks, save it for Big Bads after you've dispelled their displacement or located them with True Seeing. Pearls of power are great for getting these slots back. Once you have five attacks, arcane strike will be doing 20d4 damage if you sac a 4th level spell slot, and you gain +4 to hit on top of the damage, which you can feed right back into Power Attack and not missing with your iterative attacks.

Um... so yeah, those are some things you can do as a Gish. Not all of them at once, at least not until very high level, but prebuff, smack, timely spellslinging as needed is your general modus operandi.

Note: generic "stupid" crowd control (solid fog, etc) is less useful than instantaneous debuffs (Glitterdust) since you do need to melee things. Freedom of Movement and Ring of Spell Storing with GDM in it asap.
If you can use a normal shield without penalty, have one forged with the design for a symbol of pain worked into the front (find a willing master blacksmith, charm person only if gold doesn't work), cast and permanency Symbol of Pain and attune it to your whole party. Set it to go off when the shield is struck or someone utters a ridiculous word of your choosing. Since the symbol activates like a trap and not a command-word magic item, you can use a free action to speak the word on your turn and severely no-save debuff your enemies (avoid using if there are lots of innocent bystanders around).

[valadil]

I only played one briefly and it was in a higher level game. I played as a melee character when someone was in range. I played as a caster when I couldn't whack someone or if a spell was desperately needed. I don't remember doing too much buffing, aside from enlarge person since I used a spiked chain and liked the size modifier.

It wasn't the most optimized thing I've played but it was the most fun melee type. I like having choices to make every turn and this character absolutely provided that.

[dzhang]

I think about this a lot too, since to me a build that "matures" at L10 or so isn't realistic as the character would not have made it that high (come on, in-character, your party isn't going to want to hold your hand for 9 levels for your "potential").

The key point of the gish is versatility. Melees are going to suck against groups of archers, and wizards are going to suck against golems, but gishes do well against both. Consequently, gishes are almost certainly what you want if you're in a small group/soloing.

One strategy is to go Monk or Swordsage-based gish. Then you get decent combat from the get-go, and you use magic only as a way of boost armor (because Mage Armor and Shield stacks well with WIS bonus to AC). Get 2nd level spells that are mostly utility (Invisibility, Baleful Transposition, etc.). By 3rd level spells you should have Practiced Spellcaster, so your CL will be the same as a full caster (though you'll be lacking about 1 tier of spells), and can be a backup nuker vs. swarms or groups of enemies. Alternatively, you can go full combat and get Arcane Strike for more hit and damage.

Another set of builds I like is to go from Human Paragon... you basically get to be skill monkey (8 class skills of your desire!), fighter (d8 dice and a martial weapon proficiency), and caster (2/3 caster level), plus you get a free feat and a +2 to your favorite stat. Here's a sample build:

1HD: Human Paragon 1
2HD: Wizard 1
3HD: Human Paragon 2
4HD: Human Paragon 3
5HD: Wizard 2
6-9HD: Unseen Seer 1-4
10-14 HD: Abjurant Champion 1-5
15-20 HD: games don't usually last this long, but you can go for Eldritch Knight if you want to be more combat (17 BAB, 18 CL), or Unseen Seer 5-10 if you want to be more spells (15 BAB, 19 CL).

Notable points:

1. Human Paragon allows you to pick up Unseen Seer at an absurdly early level without sacrificing casting much. It's awesome.

2. You don't get your first BAB until 3HD, so you need your attack stat (STR or DEX if you do weapon finesse) to be good (at least 16) if you want to survive levels 1 and 2.

3. You can start Abjurant Champion 1 level earlier if you wish (I generally want to pick up the second 1d6 sneak attack first).

4. If you really want to go heavy casting/blasting, you can substitute in Sorceror for Wings of Flurry, Practiced Metamagic, and Spellwarp Sniper. But I generally find those too specialized, and weak against say, golems.

[Madwand99]

The answer is "Any way you like". That's what I love about gishes... you have so many choices about how you want to solve an encounter. As a nearly full spellcaster, you can have all the typical "I got a spell for that" solutions. Before going into a fight, you can buff up (as many spells as you think you need/can spare). In a fight where you are suprised, you still don't suck, even if you don't have any spells up, and you can take a round to buff if you want. Or, you can throw down some battlefield control to give yourself some breathing room, THEN buff yourself, OR you can concentrate on buffing your allies, OR, OR, OR...

Yeah, that's the idea. Having choices == higher tier, being more flexible about how you solve problems. A gish trades off some of his spell power to add the additional choice of physical combat, so the answer of "how do you play a gish?" tends to be similar to "how do you play a wizard?", except with one more option added to the table.

[eggs]

3. You can start Abjurant Champion 1 level earlier if you wish (I generally want to pick up the second 1d6 sneak attack first).
Just a heads-up, you need to already have Sneak Attack for Unseen Seer to advance sneak attack

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Just a heads-up, you need to already have Sneak Attack for Unseen Seer to advance sneak attack

What else is Master Spellthief for (other than silly Caster Level tricks)?

[Toofey]

Glass cannons, focus on mobility and coverage and only close the distance when you can kill your enemy before they act.

assuming that is I'm understanding the use of Gish correctly.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Glass cannons, focus on mobility and coverage and only close the distance when you can kill your enemy before they act.

assuming that is I'm understanding the use of Gish correctly.

Not if properly buffed. And 'focusing on mobility and coverage and only closing the distance when they can kill their enemy before they act' basically describes rocket tag, which any full caster has the spells for, and arcanists especially.

A Gish, originally, was a multiclass Fighter/Wizard, the term coming from the Gith language. The term is more broadly used to mean a caster build which has, as a base, 16 BAB and 9th level spells, which is capable both in melee and as a caster. Typically it also involves provisioning for survivability, AC, miss chances, immunities, &c.

[Madwand99]

Glass cannons, focus on mobility and coverage and only close the distance when you can kill your enemy before they act.

assuming that is I'm understanding the use of Gish correctly.

That can be one way to play a gish, but it probably isn't the optimal way. I've played gishes that layered long-term defensive spells and standard defensive items to the point they were the tank of the group, with minimal investment, and still dished out more melee damage than anyone else. A gish can be very, very hard to kill.

[Yukitsu]

Playing one from about 3-17, I started with my BAB full class first, playing the character as a relatively normal fighter with an odd stat array (as I find fighty type characters more reliable at lower levels). Moving into level 4-10, I started with my caster abilities, and used them at these levels mostly for quick battle control (glitterdust for example) a few buffs when I knew I was in for a fight (shield) or as utility (knock). All in all, I was "weaker" than a conventional fighter or wizard of the same level, but could do more things.

Past level 10, I had my PRCs lined up, and was capable of running all day buffs, and at that point, primarily handled like a DMM cleric mixed a bit with the spiked chain tripper build. Massive buff boosts to make me well ahead of the fighter in melee combat. For actual casting, I relied on battle control spells (walls, illusions, dominating henchmen etc.) rather than trying to SoD, SoL or SoS the BBEG. (because that would be completely ICTEEICD). This let me fulfill the group role of both battle field control and melee damage dealer simultaneously.

Compared to a normal caster, I liked that character for his ability to just go at pretty much every fight at 100% capacity. Normally my wizards are very careful rationing spells, and I spend a lot of time thinking carefully about what I'm going to have cast every day for protection. With a Gish, most of that is more a no-brainer type choice.

[Toofey]

My experience was in 2nd ed, so the HP cost of it was pretty high, and it was harder to have standing magic effects. It also makes any form of armored casting basically impossible.

[Tvtyrant]

Basically you use magic to do mundane things well. One of my favorites is to play an Archivist with a lot of swift action wands and either wand chambers on weapons or gloves that let you swap wands as a free action. Swift action to buff (say swift haste) and then attack, which activates your wand chamber and casts a spell which gives your melee attacks a daze effect.

[nedz]

A Gish is just one type of multi-threat character, namely Combat/Arcanist.
What these types of characters give you are more options, options are fun because you get to make choices, options are also more powerful because they allow you to resolve more challenges.

That being said there are many types of Gishes, all of which play differently.
You can play the Combat Bard type of buffer/scrapper.
You can also play the type where your spells are rarely useful in combat, maybe there are all social or travel related or something.
There are many more types, though the variation is mainly on the arcanist side.

The hard part is if you have to spend too much time buffing prior to combat. This depends very much on the game style, in some games you can get away with several rounds of buffing most of the time, in others you are lucky to get 1 round.

[Zelkon]

I'm loving my sorc Gish: pal2/sor4/spellblade1/Abjurant champion 5/superOPthingfromcompletedivine8

[Venusaur]

I'm loving my sorc Gish: pal2/sor4/spellblade1/Abjurant champion 5/superOPthingfromcompletedivine8

Sacred Exorcist?