Is A One-Level Bard Dip Really Worth It?

[Palanan]

I have a player who's running a perfectly respectable swashbuckler/rogue, and doing an excellent job with the roleplaying. For his next level, though, he wants to take a dip into bard--just a single level--and I'm wondering if this is really a good idea.

He's an experienced gamer, but new to 3.5, so he tends to choose options for their style or feel. He's mentioned skill points and social abilities as bardic perks...but the rogue gets more skill points, and his roleplaying is good enough that virtually everyone on the ship already likes him.

The other benefits of being a bard just don't seem like they'd contribute that much. Having just one bardic music effect per day won't take him too far, and two cantrips seem a poor trade for losing an extra +1 BAB. Extra Music or Chaos Music could help, but he doesn't have feats to burn.

As you can probably tell, I'm not entirely objective here; I dislike random dips and I'm not a big fan of bards. That said, it's fine if he really wants to go for this; I just want to give him solid advice so he can make a better-informed decision. Is a one-level dip worth it, or is he better off with more rogue?

[prufock]

He's mentioned skill points and social abilities as bardic perks
Not worth it for this. The rogue class has Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, Bluff, Perform, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand as class skills, with more skill points than the bard. For a one level dip, rogue does these things better than bard.

The usefulness of Inspire Courage +1 depends in part on your group, level, play style, and build goals. IC can be optimized to a fair degree with feats and items, but a +1 once a day is less useful than giving the rogue a wand of Bless or Heroism, depending on your level. Extra Music feat grants +4 times per day, but now you're burning a feat.

All in all I'd say bard is not really great for a 1-level dip.

EDIT: If he wants to go the magic route, and likes the social aspects of the class, have a look at the Beguiler from PHB2. Factotum (Dungeonscape) can also be a good dip for a variety of reasons.

[Drelua]

How many levels of Rogue does he have? If it's 4, he won't lose any BAB by taking a Bard level instead. If he doesn't have Use Magic Device, it would also open up a bunch of wands, like Cure Light. It's still probably not optimal, but if he's not having any trouble power-wise and he wants to be a bard, I don't see a problem with it; it certainly won't cripple his character by itself.

[Palanan]

Right now he's Rogue 1/Swash 3, so the +1 BAB does hang in the balance.

The player's running him as a dashing swordsman, opportunistic rogue and charming ladies' man (although he's actually a halfling). He's focused on rapier for melee, and he's been looking at PrCs like Duelist for extra flavor, so a sidestep into minor spellcasting seems like a strange detour to me.

Also, he's using the feat rogue variant, so another rogue level would net him a second bonus feat. For me that seals the deal, but he likes bard.

: /

[Fouredged Sword]

Have him take SA fighter for 3 levels(or another SA granting class), then take daring outlaw to get all his SA from rogue back and make swashbuckler levels also grant SA.

Then have him finish out rogue. Bard is not useful at this time.

[Gavinfoxx]

Point him at the Swashbuckler Dead Level thing, and at Daring Outlaw...

And at paying someone to Psychic Reformation his skill points or feats (Able Learner! Jack of All Trades! Open Minded! Nymph's Kiss! Wanderer's Diplomacy!) if he messed them up or something like that.

[eggs]

Not using fractional BA? :smallyuk:

Automatic success with Bard wands, plus the save bonus (especially with Savage Bard), and music for qualifications could justify it.

3-4 Bard levels is usually a better dip, but I don't see how this is meaningfully worse than going back into rogue.

[Palanan]

I'd totally forgotten about the dead levels--thanks for that reminder.

As it happens, the dead level for Swashbuckler 4 would be thematically perfect for this character...except that it would be thinly situational at best, and probably better handled by roleplaying anyway.

Are there any swordfightey PrCs that are better than Duelist? Might be good to have something to aim for.



EDIT: Also, Eggs, thanks for the other points, I appreciate it. Although there won't be too many bard wands where this party is going. :smallbiggrin:

[eggs]

Scarlet Corsair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) is better, but it can flop hard without system knowledge (stacking fear effects, keeping feinted targets off-guard, maximizing attacks per round)

And Warblade/Swordsage and their PrCs can cover most aspects of melee well.

[Palanan]

Yup, looked at Scarlet Corsair a while ago. It's mechanically decent, but doesn't fit the character at all; he's dashing and likeable, not really terror-inspiring.

Also, he's using the feat rogue variant, so no sneak attack.

[killianh]

It's been said but if he wants to dip Beguiler is a better choice than Bard. More skill points, plus the spells are more on the side of useful, with better options and more synergy with rogue/swashbuckler. Factotum is nice too, but better if its for 3 levels than just one

[Honest Tiefling]

If build talk does not sway him, ask him if he thinks that his character has...Whatever it is that makes bards in your world. Since they qualify for Dragon Disciple, I assume that standard fluff says they potentially arise from a magic bloodline. Ask him if he needs that to do what he's doing just fine already.

How do you feel about homebrew, and replacing bits of that class that rely on fear with diplomacy and different effects. I have no idea how that would work power-wise, but I find it amusing to think of people falling into a daze and stunned because of the pure awesomeness of the swashbuckler.

Consider asking him if running around playing the harp in battle really is going to help his suaveness and appeal to ladies (my test audience says no). Might not be accurate, but I don't think taking bard is really what he wants. Try throwing social roguey type feats at him to see if that gets his interest. I can't honestly remember if it was Swashbuckler or another class that got the seduction ability. Maybe it was from PHBII?

[Malroth]

Bard 2 with inspiration boost, song of the heart and a vest of legends is giving his entire party +4 attack and damage for as long as he maintains his performance, if he performance skill is something like "acting" then he can keep it up all day without penalty from a single bardic music use and he can still make attacks like normal.

[dextercorvia]

Bard 2 with inspiration boost, song of the heart and a vest of legends is giving his entire party +4 attack and damage for as long as he maintains his performance, if he performance skill is something like "acting" then he can keep it up all day without penalty from a single bardic music use and he can still make attacks like normal.

You need Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart, which means Bard3. Keep this up, and he will be Rogue1/Swashbuckler3/Bard16. :smallsmile:

[DeusMortuusEst]

I'd totally forgotten about the dead levels--thanks for that reminder.

As it happens, the dead level for Swashbuckler 4 would be thematically perfect for this character...except that it would be thinly situational at best, and probably better handled by roleplaying anyway.

Are there any swordfightey PrCs that are better than Duelist? Might be good to have something to aim for.

No need to PrC, go Swordsage or Warblade. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart has a lot of swordfightey, duelist-suitable maneuvers. If he takes SS he can pick up a few Shadow Hand things as well for a more rogueish feel.

[Piggy Knowles]

There are two potential PrCs that a dip into bard could be good for: Sublime Chord and Chameleon.

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Bard 1/Trapsmith 2/Unseen Seer 3 could totally work as an entry into Sublime Chord (take two levels of it, then finish out with more Unseen Seer and/or Earth Dreamer). That would give him 9th-level spells off the Sor/Wiz list, plus full Trapsmith casting, some bonus Divination spells, decent sneak attack, and great skills.

Alternatively, Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Bard 1 would be a solid base for a Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b). It's nice to dip into a class with some spellcasting before taking Chameleon, so that you can qualify for feats requiring it. (Chameleon can benefit from said feats with its own casting, but can't qualify for them by itself.) I'd personally prefer Cloistered Cleric as my skillful one-level casting dip, but Bard works too...

[Malacode]

Everyone seems to be posting what they'd want to do in this situation, and the "conundrum" of having a player want to take a level in bard and you taking issue with it really isn't one, at least with the way I run my games. I don't want to make any claim of dealing with this in the best way, but this is certainly how I go about this sort of thing. You seem to be pretty relaxed about the whole thing, and that's a good place to be when it comes to helping your players choose their path.
First of all, think about why you're trying to discourage the player from doing this. If it's for any reason other than "The player will be unhappy with a level in Bard and doesn't realize it", then go to 4. If that's the reason, then start at 1.

1 - Is the player already mechanically weaker than the rest of the party, or will they be if they take a level in Bard? If so, -do they/will they resent this lack of comparative power-? If yes to -both-, then recommend a level in Rogue, SA Fighter or best of all Beguiler. If no, continue to 2

2 - Does the player care more about fluff than crunch? Is the character in-game more of a consideration than the stats on the sheet? In this case, if Bard is legitimately a bad idea, then show the player Beguiler. If this isn't a consideration from the player, go to 3. If showing the class doesn't work, go to 4.

3 - Does the player care about numbers on the sheet? If yes, show them that the numbers they care about (Stats, skills, BAB, saves, abilities, whatever) will be better with a level in rogue/fighter/spellthief/whatever. If that's not a consideration of the player, or doesn't work, go to 4.

4 - Let the player build and play their character the way the see it. Have a copy of their character sheet as it is now, and preserve it in case they decide Bard was a bad idea and they are unhappier with where they are after taking a level in it. That way, you can let them rebuild the character from the point where it "went wrong". If they never become unhappy, then there never was a problem in the first place.

You might note that I'm only concerned about how the player feels about their character. There are other considerations, not least of which is how happy the other players are (Will a level in Bard cause this player to step on another characters toes/usurp their party role?) and how appropriate Bard would be for the campaign (No Arcane casters? No Supernatural abilities? Bards have to be Evil?).

Edit: Adding a tl;dr
Show the player Beguiler. Let them make up their own mind. If other players would be unhappy, then let the player know. If campaign would break, let the player know.

[eggs]

You need Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart, which means Bard3. Keep this up, and he will be Rogue1/Swashbuckler3/Bard16. :smallsmile:
You say that like it's a bad thing. :smalltongue:

[Answerer]

1. use fractional BAB like a sane person. I've gotten to the point where I assume fractional BAB, and if the DM doesn't like it, then I don't like the DM and I'm not going to play the game. Not using fractional BAB just makes absolutely no sense.

2. bard gives a fair amount in one level. For a rogue to dip bard for skill points does not make any sense, but Inspire Courage is good (and can be pumped up quite nicely), Bardic Knowledge certainly doesn't suck and the Bardic Knack ACF is even better (EDIT: not for a one-level dip), and fascinate can be useful. Countersong is garbage but there are some ACFs for that (plus it's just one in a long list of things). Plus you've got the same BAB, only two fewer skill points, a few cantrips, and better saves, and can use spell trigger items of the bard's spell list without UMD.

With a few items and maybe a feat or two, even a one-level-dip for Inspire Courage can be potent (though you'll definitely want Extra Music for this route). Getting that up to +3/+3 or so isn't hard, and I can see at least one trivial way to get it to around +6/+6 (but then Words of Creation is not a well-balanced feat), plus he could take Dragonfire Inspiration to turn the +3/+3 to +0/+3d6, which is pretty damn good (plus he can stack the two songs for +3/+3d6+3, though that does start to eat into actions).

[the_david]

You could let him use fractional BAB.

Also, all that stuff with beguiler levels and swordsages? He's new to 3.5, so I'd suggest to keep it simple. Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw. Tell him he wants that first.

[LadyLexi]

Bard is my power play class of choice, but a single level of it is all wrong. Plus, multiclass penalties are going to really screw him over. Tell him he should wait till he can go Bard for all the levels.

When DM's complain that my _____ is too powerful I offer to bench it for a bard and show why Bard>Warblade, Wizard or Cleric.

[Answerer]

One level doesn't affect multiclass penalties.

And if there's a rule even dumber than non-fractional BAB, it's multiclass penalties. They don't achieve anything but headaches for no good reason.

[Piggy Knowles]

Bardic Knowledge doesn't suck and the Bardic Knack ACF is even better

I agree with most of your post, but I fail to see how Bardic Knack is remotely useful for a one-level bard dip, being based on levels and all...

Also, one thing that wasn't mentioned in your post but is totally nice is access to the bard spell list via spell trigger items. Your player's rogue can now use wands of Cure Light Wounds (mini-healer!), Glibness, Silence and more without needing a UMD check. That's pretty nice.

[Answerer]

Oh whoops, forgot it was bard-level-based. You're right there.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by the_david
Also, all that stuff with beguiler levels and swordsages? He's new to 3.5, so I'd suggest to keep it simple.

Thank you. The player is indeed new to the game, so "mechanically simple" is a strong consideration.

That said, I appreciate much of the commentary above, and I agree that beguiler is a lovely class. However, I'm not sure if the player is interested in pursuing a full spellcaster; he's developed a good history and personality for the character, and it doesn't seem to be a setup for a strongly arcane trajectory.

Also, Malacode, thanks for the other points you've made. Right now we have a small, low-op party, so a level in bard won't affect his role in the group; he's effectively roleplaying much of what a bard would do anyway. There won't be much opportunity for bard-specific magic items (although if he really wants bard, I'll see what I can do) so his IC potential would be fairly limited.

I appreciate the input so far. Time to get with the player and clarify what he's really looking for.

[Spuddles]

Swordsage can get what he might want out of bard instead of actual bard levels, but even more so, due to the way multiclassing tob classes works.

I think tob is pretty straightforward ruleset, and offers more in the way of comba than more traditional +1 bab classes.

[nedz]

Right now he's Rogue 1/Swash 3, so the +1 BAB does hang in the balance.

The player's running him as a dashing swordsman, opportunistic rogue and charming ladies' man (although he's actually a halfling). He's focused on rapier for melee, and he's been looking at PrCs like Duelist for extra flavor, so a sidestep into minor spellcasting seems like a strange detour to me.

Also, he's using the feat rogue variant, so another rogue level would net him a second bonus feat. For me that seals the deal, but he likes bard.

: /
Maybe he wants to enter the Dashing Swordsman PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) ?
I wouldn't worry about this quite as much as you appear to be, the player may have some idea in mind, and the player is always right about these decisions (even when they have made bad choices).
Bard 1 is not a great dip, Bard 2-4 is much better though and he may come back.
Bard does also give you an exotic weapon proficiency in Whip, dipping Bard 1 for this is better than taking a level of Fighter. Since he's taken Feat Rogue though, then this should not be an issue.

[Answerer]

Tome of Battle is simple. It's the only book in all of 3.5 where you can literally choose whatever sounds cool, and it will be.

Beguiler's pretty damn simple too; you only get to choose a handful of spells, and everything else is just automatic.

[Palanan]

I've just checked with the player, and it turns out that he has his eye on the bard's knowledge skills, with the idea of taking Knowledge Devotion at sixth level. As I mentioned, I'm not especially looking for reasons to discourage him, and as long as he has a plan in mind I'm not too concerned.

He seems set on just a single level of bard, so Bardic Sage might be faintly useful here, and Healing Hymn would come in handy on a ship after a major battle. Extra Music or Chaos Music would help with that, but I wonder if it's worth spending a feat to support a single level in a class?

[Answerer]

One level or not, Extra Music is a good idea. Really, lots of Bards never hit 8 and get that Inspire Courage +2; they get +1 and then get bonuses for it, and use Extra Music (if necessary) to have enough uses.

Extra Music would be pointless to a single-classed Bard, since they get so many uses per day.

Knowledge Devotion is a good feat. I think a Cleric dip would be better for that, though.

[dextercorvia]

Cloistered Cleric is usually the goto dip for that. Duskblade also works.

[eggs]

Inspire Courage can get crazy, and either 3 levels of Bard or 1 level+Chaos Music is all the investment that it really needs to absolutely crank the benefits.

With the Friendly Smiley path of the Dread Pirate PrC (which doesn't sound out of character) and no further Bard levels, he could get +9 attack/+9d6+9 damage to the whole party with a bit of investment (using the conservative reading of Words of Creation).

The Bard dip is fine, and so are more feats. It sounds like he's done his research.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by dextercorvia
Cloistered Cleric is usually the goto dip for that. Duskblade also works.

I hear you, but the player likes bard. He's actually done a good job of laying out the background for it, and the character will be spending at least a month on a long sea journey, practicing on his mandolin and listening to sailors' stories. I like the roleplaying, so I'm good with that.

As for Dread Pirate, this is a PrC that's always on everyone's mind. This is why I've stationed twenty marines on the ship.

:smallbiggrin:

[Honest Tiefling]

How is he in power levels with the rest of the party? If he's not overshadowing them combat-wise, what is your opinion of letting him rebuild into bard, should he decide to stick with it? AFB, so I cannot remember what the PHBII rebuild rules are like for the life of me but I think they did not cover class changes.

Maybe if you think this is fine and he might pursue it, have a back-up swashbuckling bard build statted out you can give him if he starts to consider it?

[dextercorvia]

I hear you, but the player likes bard. He's actually done a good job of laying out the background for it, and the character will be spending at least a month on a long sea journey, practicing on his mandolin and listening to sailors' stories. I like the roleplaying, so I'm good with that.

As for Dread Pirate, this is a PrC that's always on everyone's mind. This is why I've stationed twenty marines on the ship.

:smallbiggrin:

I wasn't trying to discourage him -- just making sure the options were known.

[Answerer]

Yeah, it doesn't sound like this player is having any troubles with the system really.

[prufock]

I'm going to chime back in here because, although it shouldn't need to be said, it should be reiterated.

Talk to the player.

Tell him you have concerns that a 1-level dip wouldn't be the best choice for him, and ask him if he'd like some suggestions. Maybe he doesn't want the help, and just wants to play what he darn well pleases, which is entirely fair. It is, after all, his character.

If he's amenable to suggestions, ask what his goals are for taking this level of bard, and suggest something that would accomplish that, but better. Spellcasting? Skills? Inspire Courage? Bardic Knowledge? Being a musician? Bard does all these things well, but not as a 1-level dip.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm pretty much with Malacode (quoted below). If the character is not underpowered or overpowered relative to the rest of the party then he's fine.

I seriously doubt that overpowered is the problem :), so the question is about underpowered, but remember, the prototypical party that the game is DESIGNED FOR is Stupid Blaster Wizard Man, Useless Healbot Cleric Gal, Silly Trapfinder Rogue, and The Fighter With Core Only Feats (who thinks the Weapon Specialization line is a good idea because for a core only fighter he's RIGHT).

It's really not hard to keep up with that group. If you're into play rather than build options that group can be a lot more fun than the one with 4 "effective" builds where the GM has to escalate to match, it's certainly easier to run for, you just pull monsters out of the MM and make sure you play the dragons as big dumb brutes and ignore the implications of things like Greater Teleport at will on the outsiders.

If that's your group, then I'm not seeing the problem here. If your group is substantially more optimized than that then your other players should also be able to point out the problems.

But the game is perfectly playable with a party of four commoners who don't bother with Handle Animal. You just use different challenges and a different scope. Don't go thinking you have to optimize.

Edited to add: You can also do perfectly well with 3 commoners playing the incompetent lackeys and 1 god wizard. But that game requires buy in from the people playing the different characters that they're OK with playing the incompetent lackeys and a system with more emphasis on wizards wanting to spend time in the lab (Ars Magica say) would probably work better.


[SNIP]First of all, think about why you're trying to discourage the player from doing this. If it's for any reason other than "The player will be unhappy with a level in Bard and doesn't realize it", then go to 4. If that's the reason, then start at 1.

1 - Is the player already mechanically weaker than the rest of the party, or will they be if they take a level in Bard? If so, -do they/will they resent this lack of comparative power-? If yes to -both-, then recommend a level in Rogue, SA Fighter or best of all Beguiler. If no, continue to 2

2 - Does the player care more about fluff than crunch? Is the character in-game more of a consideration than the stats on the sheet? In this case, if Bard is legitimately a bad idea, then show the player Beguiler. If this isn't a consideration from the player, go to 3. If showing the class doesn't work, go to 4.

3 - Does the player care about numbers on the sheet? If yes, show them that the numbers they care about (Stats, skills, BAB, saves, abilities, whatever) will be better with a level in rogue/fighter/spellthief/whatever. If that's not a consideration of the player, or doesn't work, go to 4.

4 - Let the player build and play their character the way the see it. Have a copy of their character sheet as it is now, and preserve it in case they decide Bard was a bad idea and they are unhappier with where they are after taking a level in it. That way, you can let them rebuild the character from the point where it "went wrong". If they never become unhappy, then there never was a problem in the first place.

You might note that I'm only concerned about how the player feels about their character. There are other considerations, not least of which is how happy the other players are (Will a level in Bard cause this player to step on another characters toes/usurp their party role?) and how appropriate Bard would be for the campaign (No Arcane casters? No Supernatural abilities? Bards have to be Evil?).

Edit: Adding a tl;dr
Show the player Beguiler. Let them make up their own mind. If other players would be unhappy, then let the player know. If campaign would break, let the player know.

[Baron Corm]

Seconding Dread Pirate. It's everything he wants to be! And as long as he can buff his party, and deal with social situations, he'll never be underpowered, because ending encounters through combat isn't his job. Once he gets his Inspire Courage/Rally the Crew up, he'll be fine. The Acrobatic Charge ability gets you a lot of that duelist flavor.

All I'm going to recommend is at least 3-4 levels of bard, so that a Vest of Legends will increase his Inspire Courage by +1. He'll get some cool 2nd level bard spells, with a high enough Charisma, if he goes for 4. At least 9 levels of Dread Pirate would be excellent, as Fight to the Death is a very good ability. 3 levels gets you +1 Rally the Crew, and 7 levels gets you +2, so those are optional drop off points.

[Palanan]

So, speaking of Dread Pirate (as everyone is), the main first-level benefit is Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat.

As it happens, the rogue/swashbuckler (now with 20% more bard!) already has Two-Weapon Fighting. If he takes Dread Pirate, would it be reasonable to give him Improved TWF instead? By that point he'd just about qualify for the feat anyhow.

[Honest Tiefling]

Depends. What is the rest of your party doing? If they are all batman wizards, go right ahead. Samurai? Probably not the best course of action...

[eggs]

In any case, it'd probably be good to let him use PHB2 retraining rules with the original TWF feat at that level.

[Answerer]

Yes, getting ITWF, assuming he qualifies for it, makes sense. If a character is going to be TWF-ing, then he needs to build around that from the get-go. You cannot TWF without the TWF feat, which means it needs to be a feat you start with if you're going to use it. Furthermore, TWFing is a sub-part fighting style that's absurdly feat intensive – getting some of those feats out of the way for "free" is more-or-less essential.

If the other characters in the game are playing similarly-weak archetypes (the CW Samurai mentioned would definitely count), I'd try to work in ways to give them free stuff too. They're gonna need it.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, all things being considered, I'd say let him have his Bard level, it sounds like it will work fine.


I seem to recall that in Races of Stone there was a PrC aimed at Gnomes that was about fighting with rapiers. Maybe look at that and see if a refluff for halflings would make it beneficial to your player.



Also, Tome of Battle is, as far as I'm concerned, the single best sub system in 3.5 D&D. Heck, the lack of it or a comparable system is the big reason I have drug my feet as long as I have on just flat making the switch to Pathfinder. So I would totally recommend showing him the Warblade or the Swordsage and how the system works then encouraging him at some point to go in for a dip or two.

[Palanan]

Yup, that PrC has been mentioned before. It's the Blade Bravo, and I suppose it's a possibility, although it seems a little meh. He'd qualify for it in another couple of levels (gnome, bah) and the bonus feat at 3rd level does offer some possibilities. Not all that exciting, but I'd certainly allow it if the player wants to go that way.

Meanwhile he'll be taking his level of bard, sprinkled with Healing Hymn and Bardic Sage. (Was that long dark smudge an alignment restriction?) He's looking forward to it, so I'll see if a minor bardic magic item can't drift his way.

As to the comments about the TWF tree, I've always been a little underwhelmed by those feats. Greater TWF in particular seems like the essence of meh. Fortunately he's looking at Knowledge Devotion as his sixth-level feat, which (assuming the dice behave) should give him a nice, flashy edge.