Balanced Polymorph any object 3.5

[bot]

Hi guys, I know woefully little about polymorph any object, however when one of my players intends to get it soon, I'll have to look into the balance issues that I keep hearing about.

I read somewhere that its very different in pathfinder - it it balanced there and can I use it as is in a 3.5 campaign?

Any other suggestions?

[ericgrau]

First don't let it stack with itself. Bypassing the duration limits by casting it twice is the most common form of mentioned abuse here. I've also noticed that many of the touted benefits of certain forms are the same or worse than other buff spells. As long as the spell likewise burns an action and a spell slot to cast (rather than being permanent) it's not that incredible. Second read polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) and alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) to make sure you're fully familiar with the rules. Third be wary of monster forms outside of Monster Manual I. The polymorphs are capped by HD for a reason; forms with unusually high CR for their HD (e.g., war troll IIRC) could break it. Look at these forms before allowing them. Fourth bookkeeping is a huge problem with poylmorph spells. Make sure the player has all stats of each form he wants to use figured out before the game session or it'll bog down the game.

You may notice that the BAB and HP of the original form come up in the rules. For an object you might try 0 BAB and whatever HP is involved in breaking it. Other people have suggested giving them 1 HD. Either way objects would make poor targets for making combat allies.

I'd be careful about banning things you read about online before trying them out. When not abused with unreasonable combat forms, polymorph can be a great way to add creative utility into a game. Wizards transforming themselves or others into crazy things to complete a task is one of the most classic staples in fantasy. Just talk to the player and keep your eyes open for trouble and you can have something good to play with rather than swinging the nerf bat and limiting everybody's fun.

IIRC Pathfinder assumes polymorph is for combat, assumes it will be abused for such and changes all the polymorphs into buff spells similar to bull's strength or fly. I am strongly opposed to this for the reason given above.

[Khedrac]

First thing to remember is that one cannot polymorph something into a creature one has never heard of - and no, being able to make the knowledge check does not automatically give knowledge - the rarity modifiers are there for a reason.
Even if one has heard of something - like a character from the cold north who knows white dragons painfully well, but has only heard that red ones which breath fire exist - that does not mean one knows enough about it to re-create it using polymorph. If you really do want to use knowledge checks then the minimum DC would be high enough to list every special ability the creature has...

Also consider The Giant's ideas for polymorph: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910

One of the best options here is to discuss with your player what he wants it for - if it is just utility and "fun" then the chances are you won't need to worry. If he wants to pull out cheesy tricks then you have a problem. It's unlikely that a player will say "I want to abuse the spell" if you ask him (or her) why, but if you warn him that abusing it will get it pulled, he will be more likely to be reasonable with it - and may even check things with you ahead of using them! Yes players can be reasonable people.

Many years ago playing Master D&D (black box) I used polymorph any object (because it was quick and easy) to turn the wall blocking our way into a pea - a bit later I ended it to use the wall to block what was chasing us out. That sort of use may surprise you at times, but it is hardly game-breaking and could well be what your player intends.

[Urpriest]

First thing to remember is that one cannot polymorph something into a creature one has never heard of - and no, being able to make the knowledge check does not automatically give knowledge - the rarity modifiers are there for a reason.
Even if one has heard of something - like a character from the cold north who knows white dragons painfully well, but has only heard that red ones which breath fire exist - that does not mean one knows enough about it to re-create it using polymorph. If you really do want to use knowledge checks then the minimum DC would be high enough to list every special ability the creature has...


That sort of interpretation would make summon spells entirely unusable, and RAW polymorph has no familiarity clause so it has no rules support anyway.

Polymorph Any Object is meant to be a means to change things into other things with a long duration and including objects. Essentially any interpretation of that concept allows for abuse. It's an 8th level spell, so some abuse is expected. Still, this is one of the basic "highly versatile tools for permanently or semipermanently altering other creatures or the environment" which characterize Tier 1-2.

[bot]

wow thanks for the great replies guys.

The reason why I ask here, is to get some backup/knowhow how best talk with the player.

ericgrau - Thanks for the hint about Alter self etc, I'll do that.

From what I hear maybe a simple solution could be to only allow MMI monsters and no doule cast? - Or is it still too inherintly broken?

I read The Giants ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910), it might be the solution if the above isn't adequate. The Giant on the other hand is in favor of Pathfinders solution, where I think ericgrau makes a good point - so maybe his take on the spells has the same problems as Pathfinder. I'll have to re-read his posts when I get home.

Thanks for the replies so far :)

[ShadowPsyker]

Double casting to improve duration is explicitlately prohibited in the spell (See: The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state). However keep in mind it's still based on polymorph and so has to conform to polymorphs HD restriction, the only exceptions are specifically listed in the spell (i.e. can do objects). If used in combat it's no more powerfull than any save or die efffects (Sudden maximized Destruction anyone). The ability to find uses for the spell outside of combat is merely creativity at work. Please do not stifle creativity.