Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Wyntonian]

I sure did. (http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/dark-vengeance-new-details/) But not in the same post.

So.... If I split the price with someone and take the CSM army, am I getting shafted?

[Cheesegear]

So.... If I split the price with someone and take the CSM army, am I getting shafted?

Depends how much it costs. Depends what the Hellbrute is. Depends who gets the rulebook and dice. But, if you split the price straight down the middle...Probably.

[Timberwolf]

My annoyance with Hammer and Anvil is just that it keeps showing up, really. And that's a dice issue.

I don't mind it myself, but that's because it lets me kill Heavy Weapons for 2 turns with gunships before they need to land.

[thereaper]

What exactly is a Plaserback?

[HalfTangible]

What exactly is a Plaserback?

Correct me if I'm wrong: I know it means Razorback with lascannons, but I believe it specifically refers to taking twin linked sponsons AND main cannons.

[thereaper]

Never mind, I figured it out. It's a Razorback with a lascannon and the plasma gun.

[Tome]

Bonding Knife. One model in every unit (Team Leader) probably wants a Blacksun Filter. It's only 3 points and the benefits are excellent, especially when dealing with Necrons.

With all the points you save on not buying Plasma and wasting points on Multi-Trackers and Targeting Arrays (you don't need 'em, be Twin-Linked), you also can't go too far wrong with Gun Drones

Can't take bonding knives as a system, they're Wargear. Could take Flamers though, for a point less.

Hmm... So the loadout you'd advocate is TL Missile Pods, two suits with a flamer and the third with a Blacksun Filter? I shall give it a try.

[Issabella]

Depends how much it costs. Depends what the Hellbrute is. Depends who gets the rulebook and dice. But, if you split the price straight down the middle...Probably.

Depends if you want to try and convert the Dark Angels into a fallen army :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Hmm... So the loadout you'd advocate is TL Missile Pods, two suits with a flamer and the third with a Blacksun Filter? I shall give it a try.

Kind of.

Crisis Team (x3) - 180 Points
x2; Flamer, Twin-Linked Missile Pods
Team Leader; Flamer, Twin-Linked Missile Pods, Bonding Knife, Hard-Wired Blacksun Filter, Hard-Wired Drone Controller
+ x2 Gun Drones

Is your optimum set up. You can drop two of the Flamers (always keep one). I think the points are right. Bonding Knife and Drones aren't mandatory, but good if you've got points. The Filter has decent benefit, and should not be breaking your points limit.

Plan; Shoot stuff. If it manages to Assault you, use the Auto-Hit Flamers. Remember; if stuff dies to Overwatch, and is no longer in range, Charge fails. Crisis Suits don't get into Assault. Win.

[HalfTangible]

Quick question for Guardsmen players.

Is the Death Korps of Krieg an actual army unit (like, say, Plague Marines), or just a particular flavor of guardsmen, (like the difference between T'au fire warriors and Bor'kan)? And for future reference (i'm not planning on doing this for a while) how would one go about assembling them?

[LeSwordfish]

They're a seperate Forge World army, or you can just use them as ordinary guardsmen.

[Renegade Paladin]

Quick question for Guardsmen players.

Is the Death Korps of Krieg an actual army unit (like, say, Plague Marines), or just a particular flavor of guardsmen, (like the difference between T'au fire warriors and Bor'kan)? And for future reference (i'm not planning on doing this for a while) how would one go about assembling them?
They have their own army list from Forge World. They appear in Imperial Armour 5-7, but the list was updated for 5th edition and can be downloaded for free on the Forge World site. Or you can just use them as regular Guardsmen. They aren't a special unit in the normal Guard list.

[Wyntonian]

Depends if you want to try and convert the Dark Angels into a fallen army :smallwink:

Say what? I'm not sure what this means. :smallconfused:

[HalfTangible]

Say what? I'm not sure what this means. :smallconfused:

Look up the dark angels' backstory, you'll get it :smalltongue:

[iyaerP]

Look up the dark angels' backstory, you'll get it :smalltongue:

Extra bonus fluffy points if you use your army of Fallen to face off against a Deathwing army.

[Issabella]

My own Chaos army has a squad of Chosen using the robed Dark Angel figures, mostly because I had a cypher model from long ago and wanted to use him. So now he leads a squad of fallen angels.

[Squark]

Possible Wolf Guard Terminator loadout I was thinking about;
-Power Axe, Storm Bolter
-Power Maul, Storm Bolter
-Power Axe, Storm Shield
-Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter
-Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher

That comes to 240 points before you buy any combi-weapons or a drop pod. Thoughts?

[Timberwolf]

Possible Wolf Guard Terminator loadout I was thinking about;
-Power Axe, Storm Bolter
-Power Maul, Storm Bolter
-Power Axe, Storm Shield
-Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter
-Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher

That comes to 240 points before you buy any combi-weapons or a drop pod. Thoughts?

Just as an extremely amateurish Space Wolves player, I'd say you need a Chainfist somewhere as trying to glance a Dreadnought to death is no fun when the dice aren't rolling.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Depends if you want to try and convert the Dark Angels into a fallen army :smallwink:

No such thing as a Dark Angels fallen army. Unless you're playing a Horus Heresy campaign I suppose.


My own Chaos army has a squad of Chosen using the robed Dark Angel figures, mostly because I had a cypher model from long ago and wanted to use him. So now he leads a squad of fallen angels.

I did that too, with full plasma guns, proper red and black first ed colour scheme and everything. But Cypher's fallen angel squad under his old rules was specifically 'the largest group the fallen ever gather under'. So not really an army unless you're playing kill team or something.


Possible Wolf Guard Terminator loadout I was thinking about;
-Power Axe, Storm Bolter
-Power Maul, Storm Bolter
-Power Axe, Storm Shield
-Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter
-Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher

That comes to 240 points before you buy any combi-weapons or a drop pod. Thoughts?

To be honest the best use of Wolf Guard Terminators is probably giving them just a power maul and combi-melta and then attaching them to 8 strong grey hunter squads in drop pods.

[HalfTangible]

No such thing as a Dark Angels fallen army. Unless you're playing a Horus Heresy campaign I suppose.

The Fallen aren't a DA warband? :smallconfused:

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Fallen aren't a DA warband? :smallconfused:

The fallen are Dark Angels who sided against their Primarch and were then scattered through the warp when the Dark Angel's homeworld exploded. They operate in hiding, scattered and alone, unable to locate each other or as a single squad following Cypher who has some kind of ability to draw fallen to him. They are not a warband in any sense and aren't really Dark Angels anymore either.

But we have (or had) a fluff thread for this sort of thing. Fallen Angels being a fluff thing, due to not having armies. You could make a Fallen Angels army, but you'd be in the same league as the Hello Kitty army or the flower power Necron army. Or a pre-Heresy Emperor's Children army using loyalist rules to use a less mean comparison.

[lord_khaine]

But we have (or had) a fluff thread for this sort of thing. Fallen Angels being a fluff thing, due to not having armies. You could make a Fallen Angels army, but you'd be in the same league as the Hello Kitty army or the flower power Necron army. Or a pre-Heresy Emperor's Children army using loyalist rules to use a less mean comparison.

Fluff wise there is nothing wrong with a flower power necron army, due to them suffering from various kinds of insanity :)

[Issabella]

The fallen are Dark Angels who sided against their Primarch and were then scattered through the warp when the Dark Angel's homeworld exploded. They operate in hiding, scattered and alone, unable to locate each other or as a single squad following Cypher who has some kind of ability to draw fallen to him. They are not a warband in any sense and aren't really Dark Angels anymore either.

But we have (or had) a fluff thread for this sort of thing. Fallen Angels being a fluff thing, due to not having armies. You could make a Fallen Angels army, but you'd be in the same league as the Hello Kitty army or the flower power Necron army. Or a pre-Heresy Emperor's Children army using loyalist rules to use a less mean comparison.

Well aware, I am just trying to find use for old models that are not quite covered under current lists. *grumbles about spent money* I use the models as Chosen, I did not glue in the weapons to switch in between plasma chosen vs Melta Chosen.

[HalfTangible]

The fallen are Dark Angels who sided against their Primarch and were then scattered through the warp when the Dark Angel's homeworld exploded. They operate in hiding, scattered and alone, unable to locate each other or as a single squad following Cypher who has some kind of ability to draw fallen to him. They are not a warband in any sense and aren't really Dark Angels anymore either.

But we have (or had) a fluff thread for this sort of thing. Fallen Angels being a fluff thing, due to not having armies. You could make a Fallen Angels army, but you'd be in the same league as the Hello Kitty army or the flower power Necron army. Or a pre-Heresy Emperor's Children army using loyalist rules to use a less mean comparison.

*shrug* I've seen a group of CSM with the preheresy thousand sons color scheme face off against... I believe the Brotherhood of Ultramaar? Seriously, you should've SEEN that sorcerer model... I think it was like 90% painted green stuff... looked like a Terminator in a big flowy robe. (counted as an obliterator)

...

Anyway!

Which should I get?

-Two combat squad boxes (those things with 3 tactical marines in them. Lets me get some extra units to hold meltaguns for my assault marine squad. Already have jump packs for em, just need the arms and legs.)
-Two devastator boxes (Four lascannon devastators for some long ranged anti-vehicle firepower, which at the moment amounts to two missile launchers, one in a scout squad one in a tactical)
-One Assault marine box (Would bring both of my assault squads up to 10 man, but I don't know how well the special weapons would work out then)

[Cheesegear]

-Two combat squad boxes (those things with 3 tactical marines in them. Lets me get some extra units to hold meltaguns for my assault marine squad. Already have jump packs for em, just need the arms and legs.)
-Two devastator boxes (Four lascannon devastators for some long ranged anti-vehicle firepower, which at the moment amounts to two missile launchers, one in a scout squad one in a tactical)
-One Assault marine box (Would bring both of my assault squads up to 10 man, but I don't know how well the special weapons would work out then)

1. The three-man boxes are snap-together models like the ones from AoBR and terrible for bitz-swapping and conversions. So, you can get them, just don't expect them to do what you want them to do.

2. Lascannons aren't ideal. Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas (He'Stan) are best for Devastators. Where Plasma and Lascannons belong on Tactical squads for the discount price - and you're taking Tacticals anyway, right?

3. Special weapons on Assault Marines are pretty self-explanatory when you read your Codex. Unless you're Blood Angels, you don't really need any Assault Marines at all.

...So, go with the Devastators.

[HalfTangible]

1. The three-man boxes are snap-together models like the ones from AoBR and terrible for bitz-swapping and conversions. So, you can get them, just don't expect them to do what you want them to do.

2. Lascannons aren't ideal. Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas (He'Stan) are best for Devastators. Where Plasma and Lascannons belong on Tactical squads for the discount price - and you're taking Tacticals anyway, right?

3. Special weapons on Assault Marines are pretty self-explanatory when you read your Codex. Unless you're Blood Angels, you don't really need any Assault Marines at all.

...So, go with the Devastators.1) Sunuva... *sigh* maybe another tactical box...

2) Mostly I was getting Las for the range, and the fact that 4 of them filled out my list quite nicely. I'm already putting a missile launcher in one of the tactical squads and will probably put another in the other if need be. But if I'm getting two squads of devastators, that's plenty for four lascannon marines as well as extra heavy weapons guys.

3) I AM Blood Angels :smalltongue: And i was talking about assembly. Still want this list to be as WYSIWYG as possible. For some reason I can never find arms that hold two-handed special weapons in my assault marine frames.

[Psychotic]

1) Sunuva... *sigh* maybe another tactical box...

2) Mostly I was getting Las for the range, and the fact that 4 of them filled out my list quite nicely. I'm already putting a missile launcher in one of the tactical squads and will probably put another in the other if need be. But if I'm getting two squads of devastators, that's plenty for four lascannon marines as well as extra heavy weapons guys.

3) I AM Blood Angels :smalltongue: And i was talking about assembly. Still want this list to be as WYSIWYG as possible. For some reason I can never find arms that hold two-handed special weapons in my assault marine frames.

4 Lascannons in 6e is a threat that can't be ignored. More than likely, a devastator squad with that setup will be targeted for annihilation turn 1. Just a heads up.

That's because there aren't any arms that hold special weapons in Assault Marine sprues. You'll have to use arms from the tactical marine sprue.

[HalfTangible]

4 Lascannons in 6e is a threat that can't be ignored. More than likely, a devastator squad with that setup will be targeted for annihilation turn 1. Just a heads up.

That's because there aren't any arms that hold special weapons in Assault Marine sprues. You'll have to use arms from the tactical marine sprue.

Good, that means they're targetting a long-range enemy and not targetting my assault squads or tactical squads while they move up to where they can actually do some damage =P

That's really dumb, but okay, that was the plan now anyway.

[Squark]

Good, that means they're targetting a long-range enemy and not targetting my assault squads or tactical squads while they move up to where they can actually do some damage =P

That's really dumb, but okay, that was the plan now anyway.

With a bit of knife-work, you might be able to cut the bolt pistols off a bolt pistol arm, and then you should be able to glue a special weapon onto the model that way (wielding the special weapon 1 handed), provided the special weapon doesn't have a 2nd hand on it already. I've got one of my meltagun toting grey hunters using his meltagun one handed, although that's because the gun didn't fit over his breastplate. Checking a picture of the tactical squads sprue, it looks like the special weapons don't have any hands on the bit itself, so that should work.

On the topic of Lascannon Devastators/Long Fangs... Frankly, the missile Launcher is much cheaper (as in, 2 Lascannon Devastators cost more than 3 Missile Launcher devastators. Assuming Devastators have the same points cost Long Fangs do, anyway), nearly as good against tanks, and are much better against infantry with their frag rockets. And since you're a codex chapter, you can take Lascannons in your tactical squads, and get a discount.

While we're on the topic of Heavy Support marines, when I pick up my second box of devastators for my Long Fangs, Should I consider assembling any of them without Missile Launchers? Now, obviously, there are going to be times when I just want 10 missile launchers. Fortunately, I have a few extra unassembled bodies lying around that I could assemble and then sub in and out as needed? With that in mind, would Plasma Cannons, Lascannons (since Space Wolves don't get Lascannons in our troop slots outside of Plaserbacks that I don't take in the first place), or heavy bolters be a good idea?

One last question; Is this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440285a&prodId=prod150001a) what you used to use to make Space Wolves the same way this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1600078a), this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod900140a), and this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060205) are used for making Iron Hands, Dark Angels, and Black Templars? Why isn't there a Blood Angels version?

[HalfTangible]

I have an assault marine that wields a meltagun one-handed. It's metal. So he can't stand without balancing on the gun. I was hoping to avoid that this time around

[Cheesegear]

While we're on the topic of Heavy Support marines, when I pick up my second box of devastators for my Long Fangs, Should I consider assembling any of them without Missile Launchers?

Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters or Multi-Meltas. Anything else is just too expensive. I've seen stuff like x3 Missiles, x2 Plasma Cannons, but, it never works out like they think it will.


One last question; Is this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440285a&prodId=prod150001a) what you used to use to make Space Wolves the same way this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1600078a), this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod900140a), and this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060205) are used for making Iron Hands, Dark Angels, and Black Templars? Why isn't there a Blood Angels version?

a) You shouldn't need that anymore because Wolves have their own unique, entire box.
b) Blood Angels don't need one because there's a Death Company box and a Sanguinary Guard box which should have more than enough parts to convert up a squad or two. Secondly, because Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter and don't wear dresses, cover themselves in fur even though they're wearing totally insulated Power Armour, or constantly try and cut off their own hands just to put another one on.

[Squark]

I have an assault marine that wields a meltagun one-handed. It's metal. So he can't stand without balancing on the gun. I was hoping to avoid that this time around

Glue a penny underneath the base to give it a lower center of gravity.

[Hootman]

because [Black Templars] wear dresses

Hey man, they make those dresses look damn good! Plus, they're quite slimming--you try wearing an entire car for 200 years and see if you don't want something that'll emphasize your impeccably-shaped waistline while you purge the enemies of the Emperor. :smalltongue:

[Ogremindes]

Hey man, they make those dresses look damn good! Plus, they're quite slimming--you try wearing an entire car for 200 years and see if you don't want something that'll emphasize your impeccably-shaped waistline while you purge the enemies of the Emperor. :smalltongue:

Dresses is Dark Angels. What the Templars wear is more like a bedsheet.

[Mattarias, King.]

Hey man, they make those dresses look damn good! Plus, they're quite slimming--you try wearing an entire car for 200 years and see if you don't want something that'll emphasize your impeccably-shaped waistline while you purge the enemies of the Emperor. :smalltongue:

On the subject of power armor and impeccable waistlines: I can feel the salt overtaking me. (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/08/rumors-gw-upcoming-miniatures-releases.html) But it is a good pain! (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/08/40k-wfb-rumors-digital-release-schedule.html)

I'm okay with waiting a week after my birthday for plastic sisters. (Plastic. Sisters.:smalleek:) ...Also, on that note, you and I are gonna need to head to our FLGS around YOUR birthday. :smalltongue: We'll have some celebratory conversion times.

[HalfTangible]

Dresses is Dark Angels. What the Templars wear is more like a bedsheet.Nah, DA have hoods. They're robes. BT wear togas.

[Renegade Paladin]

I had what I thought was a 1750 game against Blood Angels tonight and got tabled bar the Valkyrie. When I sat down afterward and told BoSheck about it, though, he grabbed his BA codex, added up what I told him the other guy had, and apparently I was facing down an 'Ard Boyz list with 1750. :smallannoyed: I'm very happy with how I did, considering. :smallsigh:

[Rickshaw]

so i've got a necron question, and was directed here;
I know the failings of Zahndrekh and Obyron, but I'm curious about one thing: that's 2 HQ's even if one of them doesn't take up an HQ slot. does that mean I get 2 royal courts? 2 transmorgra'teks would be a wonderful wonderful thing (especially working together to shut down the movement/assault of any unit that gets close enough to be a problem. and 2 harps of dissonance? yes please!)

[Renegade Paladin]

For reference, the list I used:

1755 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Infantry Platoon - 200
-Platoon Command Squad
--Lascannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
--Power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team

Veteran Squad - 160
-Three meltaguns
-Bastonne

Valkyrie - 100

Hellhound - 130

Devil Dog - 135
-Multimelta

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Basilisk - 155
-Camo netting

And his, to the best of my (eidetic) memory:

Librarian

3x Sanguinary Priests
-Power fist
-Corbulo

Librarian Dreadnought
-Meltagun (he never shot it, but was wondering aloud why he buys it when he has Blood Lance)
-Drop pod

5x Terminators
-2 chainfists
-Assault cannon
-Land Raider Redeemer
--Multimelta

10x Assault Marines
-No jump packs
-2 meltaguns, infernus pistol, power fist
-Land Raider Redeemer
--Multimelta

10x Assault Marines
-2 meltaguns, infernus pistol, power fist

10x Scouts
-Sniper rifles, missile launcher

Baal Predator
-Heavy flamer sponsons

Devastators
-3 missile launchers, lascannon

Devastators
-4 missile launchers

Devastators
-4 missile launchers

Aegis defense line
I may have missed some miscellaneous wargear, but if so it never came into play. I wasn't thinking of it during the game, but now that I write it out, that looks like a suspiciously large number of Marines and Land Raiders for the points level. Does someone who knows BA better than me have an estimate of what that would actually cost?

[Cheesegear]

I know the failings of Zahndrekh and Obyron [...] does that mean I get 2 royal courts?

No. Check page 90. It tells you who and - more importantly - who doesn't let you take Royal Courts.

If you were to take Zahndrekh and Obyron and another Overlord (special or not), then yes. You can take two Royal Courts. It's still points-intensive though.


Does someone who knows BA better than me have an estimate of what that would actually cost?

Rough estimate without Codex.
Librarian - 100
3x Sanguinary Priests (Corbulo) - 230
Librarian Dreadnought; Drop pod - 210
5x Terminators + Land Raider - 480
10x Assault Marines + Land Raider - 450
10x Assault Marines - 200
10x Scouts - 150
Baal Predator - 120
Devastators - 150
Devastators - 130
Devastators - 130
Aegis defense line - 50

2200 Points or so. My guess is he was playing with a 2250 list. Definiately over 2K.

[Timberwolf]

I come up with just over 2400 but that is me going from memory, never really using BA Devastators and not having the codex to hand.

Also, the Librarian Dread can't have a meltagun. If I'm remembering right, FAQ states that the Librarian Dread cannot change its load out, not even adding extra armour and its load out says stormbolter.

You, my dear fellow, got done there and it's a testament to your list that it held up as long as it did. He may have misheard you, thought you said 2750 and thought "Yay" when he saw how small your force was.

[Renegade Paladin]

No, he said 1750. A borrowed codex says he actually played 2440 (plus whatever he was paying for the meltagun he couldn't take). And had the gall to tell me he was under ten so if I'd be over five he'd take another infernus pistol. Either he's really bad at math or I was had. I'll tell him to bring it again and unleash the entire armored regiment at him next time I'm in the shop.

As for how I did, a lot of it was down to randumb. Both Land Raiders got immobilized on terrain and his jump pack Marines had a deep strike mishap and rolled Misplaced, so I stuck them way in the back of the table in a crater. (Armor saves being allowed for Dangerous Terrain now has made Assault Marines crazy good, I should add.) His Terminators failed assault rolls two turns in a row due to difficult terrain. The game ended on turn 6, but on 7 he would have destroyed the Valkyrie (he rolled it out real quick just to see). At the top of six, I had the Leman Russ, the Valkyrie, and the platoon officer left alive. In his ensuing phase the Russ and officer were killed and the Valk's multilaser shot off (it had previously emptied its missiles into things), so there was literally nothing I could do even though I technically wasn't tabled.

I am going to finish that Vulture gunship and I am going to fly it straight down his throat in two weeks' time. (Skipping this weekend due to Gen Con.)

[Timberwolf]

No, he said 1750. A borrowed codex says he actually played 2440 (plus whatever he was paying for the meltagun he couldn't take). And had the gall to tell me he was under ten so if I'd be over five he'd take another infernus pistol. Either he's really bad at math or I was had. I'll tell him to bring it again and unleash the entire armored regiment at him next time I'm in the shop.

As for how I did, a lot of it was down to randumb. Both Land Raiders got immobilized on terrain and his jump pack Marines had a deep strike mishap and rolled Misplaced, so I stuck them way in the back of the table in a crater. (Armor saves being allowed for Dangerous Terrain now has made Assault Marines crazy good, I should add.) His Terminators failed assault rolls two turns in a row due to difficult terrain. The game ended on turn 6, but on 7 he would have destroyed the Valkyrie (he rolled it out real quick just to see). At the top of six, I had the Leman Russ, the Valkyrie, and the platoon officer left alive. In his ensuing phase the Russ and officer were killed and the Valk's multilaser shot off (it had previously emptied its missiles into things), so there was literally nothing I could do even though I technically wasn't tabled.

I am going to finish that Vulture gunship and I am going to fly it straight down his throat in two weeks' time. (Skipping this weekend due to Gen Con.)

... with about 50% more points, he did that badly ?

Immobilising the Land Raiders on Terrain is just stupid. That's what going around is for. You only drive over terrain if you absolutely have to with those things. And then the mishap... With DoA that's really unlikely to happen unless you're trying to be clever. Let me guess, he was trying to Melta your Russes and landed on one. Even with DoA, I hate Deepstrikes. After all, that's why we've got Drop Pods, Sternguard and Combi Meltas.

All in all, I'd say you did as well as anyone could have hoped for. Yeah, next time bring everything and unleash the full fury of Cadia's finest.

[Renegade Paladin]

No, the deep striking was actually an attempt to get at the infantry blob, as was one of the Land Raider mishaps; I had placed them in the middle of a rock formation and he landed the Marines right on top of a big standing stone. He tried to drive the Land Raider over the barricade and it didn't work, and then the Terminators disembarked and kept failing charge rolls thanks to the same barricade.

Reminds me. He also said Corbulo has artificer armor. It didn't make a difference, since he didn't fail any saves on 2, but damn. Incidentally, what do people think of using Corbulo's re-roll on the rolls for Night Fighting? Because he did. FAQ doesn't say no, but it doesn't say anything; it seems to be yet another of those obvious things they plain old didn't think about when they released the FAQs.

Possibly the most hilarious thing of the game was what he did with the Baal Predator. He rolled the side he didn't want for outflank and wound up spending three turns sitting face to face with a Russ pinging bullets off the front armor while I emptied the battle cannon at it. :smalltongue:

[Timberwolf]

Reminds me. He also said Corbulo has artificer armor. It didn't make a difference, since he didn't fail any saves on 2, but damn. Incidentally, what do people think of using Corbulo's re-roll on the rolls for Night Fighting? Because he did. FAQ doesn't say no, but it doesn't say anything; it seems to be yet another of those obvious things they plain old didn't think about when they released the FAQs.
:

Old Corby does not have artificer armour. However, any Feel no Pain's he himself has to take, he passes on a 2+. However his normal armour is Power Armour.

You can burn his reroll for just about anything aside from the Game Setup Dice and the initial roll for who goes first. You can burn it on the seize the initiative if you want to. However, he only gets one, so it has to be used wisely. I tend to use it for Outflanks on Baal Predators or if I really, really need that gunship on the board.

From the sound of things, you got absolutely done over on this one with someone who, and I am being very charitable, has spent upwards of £300 / $450 on an army for which he has no idea of what the rules are.

[Renegade Paladin]

From the sound of things, you got absolutely done over on this one with someone who, and I am being very charitable, has spent upwards of £300 / $450 on an army for which he has no idea of what the rules are.
Tell me something I don't know. He spent ages without an actual codex. Unfortunately, Warmachine has found its way to the shop, so he's basically the only 40k regular left besides myself; he's become my personal metagame.

And way more than that. The Terminators? Tartarus-pattern armor coming out of a Land Raider Proteus. (Which he was proxying as a Redeemer. In fact, he proxies a lot of stuff; he has loads of models, but not the right ones, so his Sanguinary Guard that he never uses stand in for all his ICs.) Given even footing and a non-borked scenario (he once talked me into 2000 points of Planetstrike, which of course turns every Assault Marine into a Vanguard Veteran) I can wipe the floor with him, which is why I was suspicious enough to start adding after the game.

[Hootman]

Land Raider Proteus

...What's this? A model I haven't heard of, because I don't frequent much Forgeworld things? I should look this up!

...

...

...

Well, crap, now I want one. Ideally as part of some kind of Drop-Vulkan or Biker-Khan list, I would surmise, and have it just roll its glorious melta-invulnerability half-way up the table double-tapping Lascannons everywhere and just wait for my Vulkan & Friends unit to just pour out and start blasting everything. The only thing it can't really be expected to do is carry any of my non-Librarian terminators, because I don't play Chaos or Space Wolves, but it's certainly a viable choice for some.

Off the top of my head, I'm honestly thinking mostly about it being useful for Logan-Wolves, as you're no longer using your elite slots for Wolf Guard and Scouts are significantly less useful than they used to be to my understanding. It would also be amazing for Sisters of Battle (Assassins in an indestructible box? Yes please!) because all of the actual SoB Elites are garbage, but their Land Raider priveledges were revoked when the Grey Knights stole the Inquisition from them. Oh well.

[Renegade Paladin]

First draft list: 2500 points

F.O. 1

Company Command Squad - 230
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Officer of the Fleet
-Chimera dedicated transport

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad 105
-Two meltaguns

Veteran Squad - 155
-Two flamers, heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Two heavy flamers

Veteran Squad - 100
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Devil Dog - 140
-Multi-melta
-Smoke launchers

Hellhound - 135
-Smoke launchers

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Basilisk - 125

F.O. 2

Company Command Squad - 180
-Four meltaguns, melta bombs
-Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Basilisk - 125

Basilisk - 125

Manticore - 160

This is basically my 1850 tournament list with four more heavy support added on and reorganized to make two legal FO charts. I'm tempted to drop the rocket pods on the Valkyrie since defensive weapons aren't a thing anymore. I suppose I could get around to mounting magnets on those lascannons and making it a Vendetta, or give Demolitions to the veteran squad it's carrying.

[Cheesegear]

So, some people are having some trouble against Flyers. Especially against the AV12 monstrosities Stormtalon, -Raven, and Vendetta. So, what to do? Aside from 'take your own Flyers', that's not always an option, since those models are usually pretty expensive and Allies aren't always allowed.

Blood Angels; Autocannon Dreads.
Chaos Daemons; None. Keep in mind that Daemons can also take Aegis Lines.
Chaos Marines; Havocs with Autocannons.
Dark Eldar; None.
Eldar; War Walkers with Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers. Divination.
Grey Knights; Practically everything in the list has Psycannons. Also Divination.
Imperial Guard; Orders and Autocannons. Lascannons if you've got the points.
Necrons; Everything. Bring Triarchs to make it better.
Orks; Lootas.
Sisters; None. Sad face.
Space Wolves; Long Fangs with Missile Launchers. Divination helps. Autocannon Dreads which Wolves now take because Scouts don't work anymore.
Codex Marines; Autocannon Dreads. Sternguard with Meltas with He'Stan.
Tau; Crisis Suits with Missile Pods.
Tyranids; None?

Keep in mind that for Dark Eldar and Tyranids, they have Flyers of their own. And that's their defense, and their only defense.

[Timberwolf]

The Storm Talon is only AV11 and 2 Hull points. I'm not a fan to be honest, it dies too easily.

Here's a few other options that might work.

Nids - lots of Hive guard I guess. Since Hive Guard are actually pretty good, if short ranged. However since a Stormraven and Vendetta stand a good chance of carrying troops, chances are good they'll be coming close anyway.

Marines barring Blood Angels - as Imperial Armour is now A OK, Mortis Contemptors with either Kheres Cannons or Autocannons and a Cyclone Launcher

Sisters, Heavy Bolter Retributors, Act of Faith, pray for Rends

Guard - Manticore and Hydra

[Closet_Skeleton]

Keep in mind that for Dark Eldar and Tyranids, they have Flyers of their own. And that's their defense, and their only defense.

Aren't Daemons in that category too if Harpies count? A Lord of Change is a flying monstrous creature with a S8 AP1 gun and Daemon Princes can be upgraded into something similar.

I wouldn't say that Hive Guard are that much worse at flyer killing than autocannon dreads either.

[Cheesegear]

Aren't Daemons in that category too if Harpies count? A Lord of Change is a flying monstrous creature with a S8 AP1 gun and Daemon Princes can be upgraded into something similar.

Yes.


I wouldn't say that Hive Guard are that much worse at flyer killing than autocannon dreads either.

Sort of. Autocannon Dreads are Twin-Linked.

[Squark]

So, I'm trying to figure out what I should spend the last 181 points of my 1250 space wolves list on.

HQ: Rune Priest -120 pts
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain
-- Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

Elites: 3 Wolf Guard -129 points
-Powerfist, Combi-flamer
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma

Troops: 9 Grey Hunters -200 points
-Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
-Drop Pod

10 Grey Hunters -180 points
-2 Meltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard

10 Grey Hunters -160 points
-2 Plasmaguns

Heavy Support: 6 Long Fangs -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers

6 Long Fangs -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers

Total: 1069 points

Possible Additions:
-Replace the combi-flamer wolf guard and one of the drop-podding Grey Hunters with Arjac Rockfist. This leaves me with 51 points left over.

-Upgrade the Rune Priest to Njal Stormcaller (In terminator armor, of course). I'm not sure about Njal as a warlord, since his price makes him a very tempting target, but this is an option. 31 points left over.

-Add a Wolf Priest. With Runic Armor, Melta bombs, a Wolf tail talisman, and Saga of the Hunter, this leaves me with 41 points left.

-Add an Iron priest riding a thunderwolf and four Cyberwolves. This is probably the most expensive option, money wise, but it's certainly a possibility. 21 points left over

-A wolf Lord with a Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, and Runic armor. The advantage here is I already have all the bits for this. He's also a much better Warlord choice than the rune priest. Or I can stick him in the drop pod unit and scrape 10 points of wargear off my Rune Priest and give him saga of the Bear.

[Renegade Paladin]

New formulation, made after remembering you can't score from vehicles anymore. I stripped points out to trade the flamer/heavy flamer veteran squad for an infantry blob with the platoon command squad also kitted out with the flamer/heavy flamer combo. Had to make the Valkyrie bare-bones and get rid of the regimental advisers (and melta bombs, and smoke launchers) to do it, since two FO charts wouldn't be legal if I just eliminated two veteran squads for it as was my first thought.

2500 points

F.O. 1

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad 105
-Two meltaguns

Infantry Platoon - 260
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---Two heavy flamers
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon

Veteran Squad - 100
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 100

Devil Dog - 135
-Multi-melta

Hellhound - 130

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Basilisk - 125

F.O. 2

Company Command Squad - 145
-Four meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Basilisk - 125

Basilisk - 125

Manticore - 160

Not waiting on building the Vulture after all, since the kid is going to college soon and wanted a last game with somebody tonight, so I grabbed the chance. I'm off to the store, so this is what I'm going with. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Edit: Fixed point costs from a copy/paste error. And yes, a company command squad with four meltaguns is cheaper than a veteran squad with three. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: He was late, and then I had to spend time carefully pointing out that no, that really wasn't 1750 points. It turned out that the list he'd grabbed to modify for 1750 was a 2000 point list, not a 1500 like he thought and he'd never double-checked the math. He also just threw in the Baal Predator because he thought it'd be a cool idea and then forgot to account for its points. :smallsigh: Then he wanted to write a new list because the one I'd wanted to get a chance to stop wasn't quite 2500. So we only got to turn three. It was still up in the air, but it turns out that even at 2500 there isn't enough ordnance to stop the Assault Marines from being all over the gun line by turn 2.

[Issabella]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/468490.page

Some images from the new starter set. As a Chaos player I am very very excited. Baroque, intricate armour, not just loyalist with spikes look. The sculpt level of detail looks like space hulk level.

[Mattarias, King.]

Sisters; None. Sad face.


:smallconfused: Exorcists aren't considered anti-aircraft? You'd think a d6 of S8, AP1 missiles would have a decent chance of taking down a flier, even at BS1.

Of course, I dunno much on 6E yet, but it SOUNDS decent enough.

[Penguinizer]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/468490.page

Some images from the new starter set. As a Chaos player I am very very excited. Baroque, intricate armour, not just loyalist with spikes look. The sculpt level of detail looks like space hulk level.

Those are rather nice. I'm just annoyed I already went and got Wargames Factory Shock Troops for veterans for my renegade guards. The thing I'm interested in the most is what they'll nerf and if I have to rebuild my army from scratch (as happened to me with Tyranids).

[Zorg]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d5cde0bf-884f-458c.jpg




Edit: All the pictures here (http://imgur.com/a/eZEVT#A3PsA).

[Tome]

Wow, that Hellbrute is helluva impressive.

In other news, I got my rear handed to me by an Epidemus Daemons list. Damn are Plaguebearers hard to kill once they get that fifteenth wound.

[thedavo]

I love the new Chaos stuff. may make an interesting diversion to my greenskins...

[HalfTangible]

I love the new Chaos stuff. may make an interesting diversion to my greenskins...

I might get it later after i get my assault marine situation sorted out...

[Klose_the_Sith]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/468490.page

Some images from the new starter set. As a Chaos player I am very very excited. Baroque, intricate armour, not just loyalist with spikes look. The sculpt level of detail looks like space hulk level.

My lurking generally consists of looking down my pointy nose at GW while being happy that some people are still having fun with 40k.

BUT THOSE CULTISTS (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/howardtreesong/40k002.jpg)

If they're in the Starter Set then I may need to start trying to eBay snipe some, because I've been wanting to try post-apoc skirmish with other systems and those are just such gorgeous footsoldiers for it.

[Drasius]

http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/meet-hellbrute-rules-stats-and-options.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Faeit212+%28Faeit+212%29

I'll just leave this here.

[LeSwordfish]

I've got three chimeras. Two carry henchmen squads about. One carries a purifier to the front line. Is the default load out good? Should I give the purifiers one a hull-mounted flamer?

[Eldan]

Once again, Chaos prove themselves to be the least boring 40k humans.

[BoSheck]

Played me some nids today.

We threw down for an 1850 game.
My list:

205 - HQ - Sammael on Speeder
340 - Troops - RWAS #1, Apothecary 2x Plasmaguns, 1x fist 1x MM AB
190 - Troops - RWAS #2, 2x Meltaguns, MM AB.
140 - Troops - RWAS #3 2x Meltaguns
205 - Heavy Support - Metatron: Mortis Pattern Contemptor with 2x Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons, CML
180 - Heavy Support - Sandalphon: Mortis Pattern Contemptor with 2x Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons
75 - Fast Attack - Landspeeder Typhoon W/MM
75 - Fast Attack - Landspeeder Typhoon W/MM
75 - Fast Attack - Landspeeder Typhoon W/MM
250 - Elite - DWAS, 4x TH/SS, 1x Chainfist/AC
95 - Heavy Support - Dakka Pred


The nids:

1x Flyrant
1x Hive Tyrant with Hive Guard, Bonesword and Lash Whip
2x Zoanthropes
10x Gargoyles
6x Warrior Brood
3x Hive Guard
15x Termagaunts
10x Termagaunts
10x Hormagaunts
2x Biovores
1x 'Fex with a big gun


Batrep

There had been word of a Nid incursion in this sector of space recently. Communication had been sparse and unreliable concerning the nature of the brood, but such a threat was not to be ignored.

Wary of their enemy the Unforgiven, led by Sammael this day, chose a sparsely wooded valley to lure out the greedy infestation. The First Chapter was not disappointed. As advanced sensor arrays reported huge amounts of biomass creeping across the jungle toward the valley, bike engines roared to life, rocketing forward to meet the writhing menace.

A single Deathwing squad appeared before the most advanced bikes, well equipped to handle the monstrosities. Shortly thereafter frag missiles and bolter rounds began scything through the lesser creatures, destroying no less than 20 of them in the blink of an eye. Brother Sandalphon, encased within the sarcophagus of his dreadnought sang an ancient hymn of battle as the Kheres Assault cannons unleashed their full wrath into the largest, deadliest best. It fell, despite its incredible chitin and mass, to the Dreadnought's incredible firepower (re: 10 hits, 6 rends, no cover, no invuln.) Sammael flinches as the apothecary from his command squad suffers a catastrophic failure of his plasma gun, his battle brother falling over in a slump, his brothers pouring bolter rounds into unsuspecting Hive Guard. Undeterred, the Master of the Ravenwing pulls the trigger on the second hive guard, leaving the Tyrant standing alone. Several bikes rocket into assault, hammering the weaker tyranids with a speedy surprise assault.

The swam is not completely caught unawares, however. Gargoyles and Hormaguants swam forward, while Warriors and Hive guard attempt to position themselves for better shots. Several of the larger, forward most bikers suffer casualties, amplifying the loss of the command squad. The Tyrant and the Gargoyles skirt around the Deathwing, piling into assault where bikes and Termagaunts battle. The Zoanthropes and biovores attempt, futily, to down the terminators with a series of blasts.

Carnage truly breaks loose as the Ravenwing strike force maneuvers to put terrain between themselves and the Warrior Brood. The roar of multiple assault cannons and several frag missile strikes turn the eager hormaguants into nothing more than a fine red mist. The Deathwing barrel into the Hive Tyrant and Gargyoles, while the Biovores are flanked by two separate attack bikes--the biovores are wounded by well placed bolter rounds and unable to escape the reckless charge of the attack bikes (hammer of wrath'ded). The Tyrant fails to fare much better, one can only stand against so many Thunder Hammers.

Hoping to salvage the battle and secure more biomass for the hive-fleet, a second Tyrant soars in above the battlefield, catching another member of the command squad in its talons as it fires desperately at the Contemptors--managing to strip a single hull point. The Zo's focus their fire on the Master of the Ravenwing, a lance blast penetrates the Shield of Night and Sammael is forced to abandon his speeder while the Gargoyles desperately try to fend off the Deathwing squad tearing through their ranks.

Metatron laughs as he activates his Helical Targeting Array and locks onto the swooping Tyrant-the sky cannot save you from the Fallen. Sandalphon does the same, a few missiles and 24 Assault Cannon shots later, there is nothing left of the Tyranids but a few Warriors--who are quickly dispatched by a rain of missiles within moments.



A crushing victory. I took both primary objectives, all three secondary objectives, and tabled my opponent. Felt kinda bad, but sort of blew him off the table. Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts with Kheres Cannons are still the cat's pajamas. Really straight up rending the 'Fex to death on the first turn was a miracle and I could see the game going completely differently without that kind of luck (I mentioned he might consider a Venomthrope if he wanted to try to run NidZilla, they're sort of Really Good in that list).

[Cheesegear]

A crushing victory. I took both primary objectives, all three secondary objectives, and tabled my opponent.

Yeah. As soon as I read the lists, I kind of felt I already knew the outcome. I could tell you to tell your friend to start investing in ForgeWorld stuff to combat your Kheres Dreads...But, it seems that FW even hate Tyranids and have nothing that can really combat against Dreads.

...Poor Tyranids. It's upsetting when a really fun, unique (even though the idea of the 'Nids were stolen from elsewhere...), visually cool army gets shafted so hard. Dark Eldar are in the same boat.

[Eldan]

Yeah. I've been thinking about starting a nid army as my secondary for a while, but every time I read the book, I change my opinion again. I'm not a very good player, I could never make it work.

[Timberwolf]

...Poor Tyranids. It's upsetting when a really fun, unique (even though the idea of the 'Nids were stolen from elsewhere...), visually cool army gets shafted so hard. Dark Eldar are in the same boat.

I dunno, I played a Dark Eldar player on Thursday. I won, but it was by no means the walkover it could, perhaps, have been.

The lists (As best as I can remember)

Wolfie


Blood Angels

Librarian

Death Company x 5 - Power Weapon, Power fist, Lemartes

Scouts Camo Cloaks, Missile Launchers

Scouts Camo Cloaks, Missile Launchers

Stormraven - Assault Cannon, Multi Meltas, Sponsons

Stormraven - Assault Cannon, Multi Meltas, Sponsons

Codex Marines

Tyberos the Red Wake

Lightning Claw Assault Terminators (Troops under Tyberos' rules)

Land Raider Redeemer


Dark Eldar



Archon - Husk Blade, Soul Trap, Blast Pistol, the 2+ invulnerable save thing, Webway portal

5x Incubi including fully tooled Klaivex

Scourges with Haywire Blaster

Scourges with Heatlances

5 x Warrior squads with blasters, all in Venoms.

2 x Razorwings with Disintegrator cannons

1 X Voidraven


Apparently this was my opponents first defeat with this list and it was really close, like about 2 VP's kind of close. It was good to see a proper, fluffy list come out of the blocks swinging and do really well. I made merry with all those Venoms after carefully blasting the Voidraven out of the sjy as it was the one thing that could hurt my beloved Storm Pigeons. However, if he had have remembered that flyers shoot down other flyers, it would have been verrrrrryyyy different as those Razorwings would have been packing Dark Lances and it would have been a race to shoot each other down first. I think I'd have still taken that as everything bar the Bloodstrike missiles is Twin Linked for me and I can split fire and have AV12, but it would have been interesting.

[thereaper]

Combat squadding counts the two squads as one unit for FO requirements, right? I mean, the rule says that they count as a seperate unit for all game purposes, but that interpretation would lead to some weird stuff...

[Cheesegear]

Combat squadding counts the two squads as one unit for FO requirements, right?

Combat Squadding is done at Deployment, not List Creation. So yes.


I mean, the rule says that they count as a seperate unit for all game purposes, but that interpretation would lead to some weird stuff...

Not really. Read when the decision to Combat Squad needs to be made. Remember to read the Errata to Combat Squads that makes Rhinos far better than Razorbacks in 6th.

Space Wolves, who don't use Combat Squads, still use Razorbacks. Blood Angels can use either.

[Tehnar]

This is my first attempt at making a eldar list for a friendly game, tell me what you think. Lots of proxying is to be had, so if you think something else would work much better, tell me.


HQ:

Farseer
singing spear
eldar jetbike
runes of warding
spirit stones
Fortune
Guide ---> Divination --->Primaris Power
======================173

w/Seer council
5 warlocks on jetbikes
embolden
enhance
3xdestructor
Singing Spears x5
============================320

Troops (180):
Rangers x6
Guardian Jetbikes x3

Heavy Support(147):
Dark Reapers 3x3, exarch , tempest launcher , crack shot

Elites(178)
Wraithguard x4, warlock, conceal, singing spear

Total: 998

[thereaper]

Combat Squadding is done at Deployment, not List Creation. So yes.



Not really. Read when the decision to Combat Squad needs to be made. Remember to read the Errata to Combat Squads that makes Rhinos far better than Razorbacks in 6th.

Space Wolves, who don't use Combat Squads, still use Razorbacks. Blood Angels can use either.

Oh, silly me. Being treated as another unit does not necessarily mean being treated as a separate FO slot. Silly, silly me.

[MeatShield#236]

This is my first attempt at making a eldar list for a friendly game, tell me what you think. Lots of proxying is to be had, so if you think something else would work much better, tell me.


HQ:

Farseer
singing spear
eldar jetbike
runes of warding
spirit stones
Fortune
Guide ---> Divination --->Primaris Power
======================173

w/Seer council
5 warlocks on jetbikes
embolden
enhance
3xdestructor
Singing Spears x5
============================320

Troops (180):
Rangers x6
Guardian Jetbikes x3

Heavy Support(147):
Dark Reapers 3x3, exarch , tempest launcher , crack shot

Elites(178)
Wraithguard x4, warlock, conceal, singing spear

Total: 998


A few quick impressions: Even for an Eldar list, you don't have a lot of models. I'd drop the Seer council, 320 points is a lot for only 5 models; maybe add a unit of Guardians or Dire Avengers or some more jetbikes.

[Squark]

This is my first attempt at making a eldar list for a friendly game, tell me what you think. Lots of proxying is to be had, so if you think something else would work much better, tell me.


HQ:

Farseer
singing spear
eldar jetbike
runes of warding
spirit stones
Fortune
Guide ---> Divination --->Primaris Power
======================173

w/Seer council
5 warlocks on jetbikes
embolden
enhance
3xdestructor
Singing Spears x5
============================320

Troops (180):
Rangers x6
Guardian Jetbikes x3

Heavy Support(147):
Dark Reapers 3x3, exarch , tempest launcher , crack shot

Elites(178)
Wraithguard x4, warlock, conceal, singing spear

Total: 998


Couple of things.

1) As meatshield said, you don't have a lot of models. Grey knights don't risk going that low without transports, and Eldar are not exactly grey knights. Also, you've skimped on troops, which is a big no-no when five out of six games you'll play will involve scoring units. I'd probably add some Dire Avengers or some more guardian jetbikes in there instead of that seer council. For that matter, at 1000 points, your farseer is getting pricy for something as fragile as he is. Also, each of your units is small, which means they can easily be picked off
2) Just to be clear, Codex powers are an all or nothing deal. You take powers from your codex, or you roll in the Big Black Book. You can't mix and match. If you're going to be swapping out both of your farseer's powers for BBB power, that's fine. But Fortune and Prescience doesn't work. Frankly, Fortune and Doom are solid enough to keep unless you need to worry about battle brothers (because you have Tau or Dark Eldar Allies)
3) This is just list writing stuff, but elites go right after the HQ (except in Necrons and Codex Marines, who go HQ, Troops, Elites...). Also, the farseer's wargear should probably be condensed to one line, maybe with a second line for the jetbike. The Psychic Powers should also only take one line.

[thereaper]

Had my first and second game of 40k today. Got slaughtered both times (in the first one I was even unlucky enough to not kill a single model :smallbiggrin: ) and had a blast being blasted.

Best highlight from the first game was when my terminators arrived from reserves via deep strike. They were promptly destroyed by a mishap, sealing my fate (as they were my only good method of dealing with vehicles).

In the second game, the enemy HQ (an eldar farseer with a wytchblade) took down my Dreadnought with one blow. Meanwhile, half a board away, his elite troops couldn't hit my HQ to save their lives.

[Squark]

Had my first and second game of 40k today. Got slaughtered both times (in the first one I was even unlucky enough to not kill a single model :smallbiggrin: ) and had a blast being blasted.

Best highlight from the first game was when my terminators arrived from reserves via deep strike. They were promptly destroyed by a mishap, sealing my fate (as they were my only good method of dealing with vehicles).

In the second game, the enemy HQ (an eldar farseer with a wytchblade) took down my Dreadnought with one blow. Meanwhile, half a board away, his elite troops couldn't hit my HQ to save their lives.

Heh. Don't worry about the losses; Pretty much everyone loses their first half dozen games or so simply to inexperience unless their opponent goes easy on them, is somewhat new themselves, or someone has drawn the favor or ire of Tzeentch with their dice rolling (My first win happened mainly because of a lucky roll annihilating a wave serpent with a power fist, back when hitting moving vehicles was a pain in the hind end). Good to see you're being such a good sport about it.

Oh, and a question that's been bugging me for a long time; For the purpose of killing off a unit of space wolves, does an attached wolf guard count as part of the unit when determining who gets first blood or a victory point for killing the unit? I've always played that the wolf guard is sort of nonexistant in terms of kill points (In other words, he doesn't need to die for my opponent to get credit for killing the squad he led), but I'd just like to be sure. Also on the topic of kill points (Well, victory points for killing stuff, but everyone I know still calls them kill points), how exactly do combat squads and kill points interact? Is each combat squad a kill point, or do you have to kill both squads to get one kill point?

[BoSheck]

Oh, and a question that's been bugging me for a long time; For the purpose of killing off a unit of space wolves, does an attached wolf guard count as part of the unit when determining who gets first blood or a victory point for killing the unit? I've always played that the wolf guard is sort of nonexistant in terms of kill points (In other words, he doesn't need to die for my opponent to get credit for killing the squad he led), but I'd just like to be sure. Also on the topic of kill points (Well, victory points for killing stuff, but everyone I know still calls them kill points), how exactly do combat squads and kill points interact? Is each combat squad a kill point, or do you have to kill both squads to get one kill point?

That wolfguard is now part of that unit for ALL purposes. He must die, in addition to ever member of that squad, in order for the KP to be granted. His point value also factors into his squad's for (whoever uses them) unit-cost based victory point calculations.

10 marines combat squaded into 2 5-man teams is 2 Kill Point, as they are two wholly seperate units.

[thereaper]

Heh. Don't worry about the losses; Pretty much everyone loses their first half dozen games or so simply to inexperience unless their opponent goes easy on them, is somewhat new themselves, or someone has drawn the favor or ire of Tzeentch with their dice rolling (My first win happened mainly because of a lucky roll annihilating a wave serpent with a power fist, back when hitting moving vehicles was a pain in the hind end). Good to see you're being such a good sport about it.

Oh, and a question that's been bugging me for a long time; For the purpose of killing off a unit of space wolves, does an attached wolf guard count as part of the unit when determining who gets first blood or a victory point for killing the unit? I've always played that the wolf guard is sort of nonexistant in terms of kill points (In other words, he doesn't need to die for my opponent to get credit for killing the squad he led), but I'd just like to be sure. Also on the topic of kill points (Well, victory points for killing stuff, but everyone I know still calls them kill points), how exactly do combat squads and kill points interact? Is each combat squad a kill point, or do you have to kill both squads to get one kill point?

Why would I worry about losses? I found the whole thing hilarious and completely expected (well, maybe not the "no kills whatsoever" part, but that was so hilarious I didn't care). Heck, when I went in, what I asked was "anyone wanna crush a newbie?".

What matters is that I had fun, and learned a lot. Winning is overrated.

Edit: An odd question occurred to me. Is it possible to throw krak grenades at fliers?

[Tehnar]

Couple of things.

1) As meatshield said, you don't have a lot of models. Grey knights don't risk going that low without transports, and Eldar are not exactly grey knights. Also, you've skimped on troops, which is a big no-no when five out of six games you'll play will involve scoring units. I'd probably add some Dire Avengers or some more guardian jetbikes in there instead of that seer council. For that matter, at 1000 points, your farseer is getting pricy for something as fragile as he is. Also, each of your units is small, which means they can easily be picked off
2) Just to be clear, Codex powers are an all or nothing deal. You take powers from your codex, or you roll in the Big Black Book. You can't mix and match. If you're going to be swapping out both of your farseer's powers for BBB power, that's fine. But Fortune and Prescience doesn't work. Frankly, Fortune and Doom are solid enough to keep unless you need to worry about battle brothers (because you have Tau or Dark Eldar Allies)
3) This is just list writing stuff, but elites go right after the HQ (except in Necrons and Codex Marines, who go HQ, Troops, Elites...). Also, the farseer's wargear should probably be condensed to one line, maybe with a second line for the jetbike. The Psychic Powers should also only take one line.

1) I really want to try the mobility of the Farseer and Lock unit, and I don't think they are fragile at all. At the very least they have a 4++ rerollable due to fortune, and I really think I can pick my fights with them (and I think they would do well against a non assault focused unit). They are also my biggest way to deal with any vehicles/walkers.

I know Im a bit short on troops, but except for the rangers they all seem woefully subpar. Well until I get to 10 wraithguard, which seem to be solid.

I did a mistake with calculating the Seer council points, they sit at 290 instead of 320. So that frees up 30 points.

2) Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Since I can't mix and match I would rather drop guide and spirit stones and rock out with just fortune. That would save me 40 points. Since most everything I have in the list wounds on a 2+ anyway, I don't think Doom is needed.

With the above savings, that leaves me with 70 points. Enough for 2 more wraithguard, or to have 2 units of 5 rangers for more troops.

Or perhaps to drop the wraithguard entirely (they are mostly here as something beefy, and to deal with terminators if they show up), and pick up a unit of shining spears instead with the leftover points going for troops.

[Squark]

1) I really want to try the mobility of the Farseer and Lock unit, and I don't think they are fragile at all. At the very least they have a 4++ rerollable due to fortune, and I really think I can pick my fights with them (and I think they would do well against a non assault focused unit). They are also my biggest way to deal with any vehicles/walkers.

I know Im a bit short on troops, but except for the rangers they all seem woefully subpar. Well until I get to 10 wraithguard, which seem to be solid.

I did a mistake with calculating the Seer council points, they sit at 290 instead of 320. So that frees up 30 points.

2) Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Since I can't mix and match I would rather drop guide and spirit stones and rock out with just fortune. That would save me 40 points. Since most everything I have in the list wounds on a 2+ anyway, I don't think Doom is needed.

With the above savings, that leaves me with 70 points. Enough for 2 more wraithguard, or to have 2 units of 5 rangers for more troops.

Or perhaps to drop the wraithguard entirely (they are mostly here as something beefy, and to deal with terminators if they show up), and pick up a unit of shining spears instead with the leftover points going for troops.

I wouldn't call Dire Avengers subpar, personally. But anyway, let's look at how you'd do in the standard missions.

Crusade: 6 Rangers will die the second someone points more than one flamer or a thunderfire cannon at them. Or if someone assaults them. As for the jetbikes... If your opponent can't kill 3 Space Marines equivilents, even if they move quickly... Your opponent's list has issues. And with no troops left, you're trying desperately to table your opponent, or you've lost.

Purge the Alien: I see a large number of small units, and only the seer council is especially durable (And that's subject to the whims of Murphy, especially against Space Wolves, who still have an effective psychic defense). I don't see this being winnable.

Big Guns Never Tire: You now have 3 scoring units... but 3 Dark Reapers are unlikely to last more than a turn once your opponent starts shooting them. Feels like Crusade again.

The Scouring: With no fast attack units, you have only 2 scoring units trying to hold six objectives, and they're both fragile. Might be worse for you than crusade.

The Emperor's Will: Your rangers might actually be able to hold your objective here... unless Necron Wraiths, a Thunderfire cannon, or something in a drop pod shows up. Probably your strongest match.

The Relic: Ew. You have only one unit that stands a chance of getting to the relic (the jetbikes), and the second they have it, they die, because they're now just 3 Marines sitting in the open.

Rangers are nice, but you need troops that can actually move forward and claim objectives. For that, you're going to want Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent or enough Guardian Jetbikes to actually survive (Multiple units of 6+, in other words)

[Erloas]

Well I'll start with the fact that I didn't reply earlier because there are no suggestions I would make with this list that wouldn't change it almost completely.

1) I really want to try the mobility of the Farseer and Lock unit, and I don't think they are fragile at all. At the very least they have a 4++ rerollable due to fortune, and I really think I can pick my fights with them (and I think they would do well against a non assault focused unit). They are also my biggest way to deal with any vehicles/walkers.
They are pretty survivable, but everything dies with enough pointed at it which is your primary issue, not enough targets. With their AS they are better then terminators with the re-roll, dieing to 1 in 9 shots, however without it they die to 1 in 4 shots, so they are going to average out about the same as terminators.
And yes, the singing spears are great against vehicles but they are kind of crappy against everything else, sure they wound on a 2+, but everything str6 does as well (practically speaking) and str6+ is pretty easy to find, so its not all that great. Limited shots and no armor penetration means they aren't going to kill much. Also Destructor requires you to get close, and while it might wipe out a lot of easy to kill models its going to put you into a bad place most of the time. Anything they are good at killing are going to be units that are so much cheaper they'll have you outnumbered by 5 to 1.

While it is true you might be able to "pick your fights" that only really means something if you can pick a fight away from the rest of the enemy. If they don't spread out there is no way you can survive long when the rest of their army shoots you after you take out that one target. Also past a 500pt game I would never have 25% of my points in a single unit. The council might be a better option around 1500, probably closer to 2000; when you have a lot more points to work with and a lot of other potential threats on the table.


I know Im a bit short on troops, but except for the rangers they all seem woefully subpar. Well until I get to 10 wraithguard, which seem to be solid.
I found the rangers to be sub-par. In theory they are good but they end up being so expensive you never have enough to really cause most things to worry and if you're going to take rangers take the Pathfinder upgrade, they need the extra cover save and scout move to survive and they need the extra chance of hitting AP1/2. Against terminators or MCs they shine but not against much else, a unit of dire avengers will kill anything MEQ or less much faster then rangers. I love the jetbikes, and dire avengers and guardians, as much as they are maligned, have served me very well so far. The guardians have the advantage of being cheap, you could have 30 models on the table for the cost of your seer council, 30 models that can move and shoot their heavy weapon as well as hold objectives. They also have the advantage of often being overlooked by your opponent.


With the above savings, that leaves me with 70 points. Enough for 2 more wraithguard, or to have 2 units of 5 rangers for more troops.
Or perhaps to drop the wraithguard entirely (they are mostly here as something beefy, and to deal with terminators if they show up), and pick up a unit of shining spears instead with the leftover points going for troops.
Let me make sure I'm reading the last part of your list right... do you have 3 units of dark reapers at 3 models each? Because if so then you are probably about 300 points over already. I don't remember all the costs but just 3 models I think is 105 points before any upgrades. And lately I have been running mine without the exarch, he is good but he increases the cost of the unit too much too fast to the point where you are better off with more normal models most of the time. I might bring one if I have a full 5 model squad but probably not in every unit if I had 2-3 units.

It also doesn't look like your jetbikes have the shuriken cannon upgrade and you should always have that, its the only reason to take jetbikes really.

Wraithguard I've never used, too expensive for the models as well as too many points. I could see how they would be good, but I think its also a point where you need a larger army first. And on foot they are simply going to be too easy to avoid, at least with a small unit give them a wave serpent so they can get where they need to be to kill stuff. They might work too in a very elite army with wraithlords, multiple units of wraithguards and a good spread of warlocks with wraithsight. At this point I don't see how they are functioning any different then fire dragons and fire dragons are a lot cheaper.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallbiggrin: Good on you, thereaper! Too many people I know play 40k and forget to have fun. I think I've maybe won twice this year, but it's still fun.

On that note, working on a new purist SoB list, gonna post it up here when I'm done. :smallsmile:

6e is looking pretty decent for us Sisters players. Haven't played it yet though. Oughta be fun.

[HalfTangible]

It's really kind of amazing how hard it is to build a 500 point list >.> And how much I don't care that it sucks once it's done...

Blood Angels - 502 points
Reclusiarch 155 (130 base)
-Jump Pack

Assault Marines 225 (100)
+5 Marines
Meltagun
Powerfist

Scouts 122 (75)
Sniper Rifles
+2 Scouts
Camo Cloaks

Basic battle plan: The assault marines will combat squad. The Reclusiarch will run with the meltagun-carrying half. The 7 scouts will park on an objective faaaar away from the enemy and apply far-ranged support.

[Renegade Paladin]

You shouldn't post wargear costs; GW will come down on this forum like the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

Company command squad - 50

Veteran squad - 70

Veteran squad - 80
-2 grenade launchers

Leman Russ battle tank - 150

Leman Russ battle tank - 150

I'd tell you the plan, but it's rather blatantly obvious. :smallamused:

[HalfTangible]

You shouldn't post wargear costs; GW will come down on this forum like the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

I did it to avoid confusion over unit costs :smallconfused: what are you talking about?

[Tome]

I did it to avoid confusion over unit costs :smallconfused: what are you talking about?

If you post the costs for the individual upgrades and bits of wargear, GW starts sending out their laywers. They're generally okay so long as you don't do that or post large bits of rules text, but cross the line and some folks could get in some nasty legal trouble.

Just write the total cost for the unit and leave off the prices for the upgrades and wargear, 'kay? Take a look at how everyone else posts lists, they do it that way for a reason.

[HalfTangible]

If you post the costs for the individual upgrades and bits of wargear, GW starts sending out their laywers.

... WHY?!?!

[Tychris1]

... WHY?!?!

........

Because that means people don't need to buy their books and get the info for free. If people post alot of the rules in books, or points cost then people don't need to buy their books because the info is readily available on the internet for free. It makes complete sense really, as they are a business (Even if the reasons for people wishing to circumvent the need to buy Codex's are reasonable, because I'll be damned they aren't expensive).

[Cheesegear]

So, now that 40K isn't even trying to hide the fact that it's a shooty game, and a couple of months have passed that people are working out how many viable builds they can pull out of their Codecies, we're now looking at something like this;

T1; Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves
T2; Blood Angels, Codex Marines, Dark Angels*, Necrons, Orks
T3; Black Templars, Chaos Marines*, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Tau
T4; Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Tyranids
* With their 4th Ed. Codecies

Remember, this list is now about how 'powerful' lists are (although you could certainly read it that way). This list is about how many lists you can make and still be at least a decent list. In very, very simple terms, you could read it as a ratio of how many bad units there are in a Codex which limits your choices. This also factors in points limit. There are a few units in the game that aren't good in low points, but are exceptional when you can afford them. And also there are cheap units that can be really powerful in 1000 point lists when your opponent doesn't have the tools to defeat them, but lose a lot of their power as soon as your opponent has points to spare to bring the counter.

T1. Unless you're trying really hard, you can't really make a bad list out of these guys. The good options in the Codex scream at you saying "I'm really good! PICK ME!" Foot? Mech? Hybrid? Doesn't matter. It's still going to be pretty good.
T2. You've still got at least two fairly competitive lists you can make. But, this time, a lot of the good units in the Codex are only useful if you take other things to pair with them and you may have at least one 'required' unit that you should probably include no matter what list you make.
T3. Several bad units in the Codex. And probably locked into a mono-build depending on who you ask. That doesn't mean that mono-builds are bad, it just means you have extremely limited options and you can't really deviate from the 'standard'.
T4. Locked into a mono-build. And even then, the mono-build is pretty bad. Some people (not this author, let's be clear, but I've heard and read it) believe these armies to be 'unplayable' in even a half-competitive environment.

[HalfTangible]

It's really kind of amazing how hard it is to build a 500 point list >.> And how much I don't care that it sucks once it's done...

Blood Angels - 502 points
Reclusiarch 155 (130 base)
-Jump Pack

Assault Marines 225 (100)
+5 Marines
Meltagun
Powerfist

Scouts 122 (75)
Sniper Rifles
+2 Scouts
Camo Cloaks

Basic battle plan: The assault marines will combat squad. The Reclusiarch will run with the meltagun-carrying half. The 7 scouts will park on an objective faaaar away from the enemy and apply far-ranged support.

Played two games with this list. The first was Annihilation against a force of necrons. The second was... Something about two primary objectives, can't remember the mission name... Against blood angels.

Necrons- overlord, warriors, praetorians, immortals.
BA - two tactical marine squads (I think 5 and 6 man) furioso librarian and captain

Against the necrons, I won largely because of range and line of sight. My assault marines and Reclusiarch attacked his unit of praetorians and kept them tied up. His immortals were too far away from my scouts, who fired on the overlord and warriors and, while they didn't wipe out the unit entirely, kept them behind cover and from really getting into the fray. The immortals were close enough to the marines and praetorians that I could charge them as soon as the latter went down. After a few immortals died, he conceded, seeing as he'd lost almost all of his squads and I lost 3 soldiers. One scout, two assault marines.

The fellow BA player, however, won by that bonus kill point you get for killing an enemy warlord. First, we both parked a squad onto our objectives (i took a couple of shots at his but he moved his units BEHIND the gigantic statue after, so neither the scouts nor his second tactical squad took a large part in the fight) and then threw the rest at each other.

I met his librarian dreadnaught with my assault marines. Now, i thought this would go very very badly. Turns out I got to kill him with regular assault marines. Lost my reclusiarch (bloody insta-kill) but i didn't lose my sergeant or meltagun. I brought the rest of the squad up to attack the Captain and smaller tactical squad. IF ANYONE TELLS ME BA CAPTAINS ARE BAD AGAIN, I WOULD LIKE TO DIRECT YOU TO THIS FIGHT BECAUSE THAT CAPTAIN'S ATTACKS WON HIM THE BLOODY GAME. I made the mistake of accepting his power-mauled captain's challenge to my power-fisted sergeant. He dropped like a rock, so i lost the power fist attacks. We then spent the rest of the game trying to resolve that melee (i moved my scouts a bit but i couldn't get LOS without moving off of the objective) and while my units ran twice, he didn't catch them in a sweeping advance.

He still wiped them out, of course.

We both had one objective and he got my Warlord, so he won by one point.

All in all, fun night =)

[Renegade Paladin]

A new direction for my army. 1850 points. Suddenly, Demolishers!

1850 points

Company Command Squad - 315
-Vox-caster
-Creed, Kell, Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 335
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---Two heavy flamers
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon

Infantry Platoon - 295
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three grenade launchers
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Commissar
---Power weapon
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher

Hellhound - 135
-Heavy flamer, smoke launchers

Leman Russ Squadron - 585
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
This is thirty points under 1850. I'm not sure what to do with it; could give Creed's squad a pair of plasma guns (or a pair of bodyguards for maximum survivability), but it's already a huge Death Star without the actual hitting power of a Death Star as it is. On the other hand, Creed is the lynchpin of the entire list, and a sensible opponent will be gunning for him anyway, so maybe that really doesn't matter. The blob with the Commissar is the target for "Honour of Cadia," and the Demolishers go behind the little dressing screen on the table flank with "Tactical Genius: Do Not Look" written on the front. :smalltongue:

[shadowwalker64]

A new direction for my army. 1850 points. Suddenly, Demolishers!

1850 points

Company Command Squad - 315
-Vox-caster
-Creed, Kell, Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 335
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---Two heavy flamers
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon

Infantry Platoon - 295
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three grenade launchers
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Commissar
---Power weapon
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher

Hellhound - 135
-Heavy flamer, smoke launchers

Leman Russ Squadron - 585
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
This is thirty points under 1850. I'm not sure what to do with it; could give Creed's squad a pair of plasma guns (or a pair of bodyguards for maximum survivability), but it's already a huge Death Star without the actual hitting power of a Death Star as it is. On the other hand, Creed is the lynchpin of the entire list, and a sensible opponent will be gunning for him anyway, so maybe that really doesn't matter. The blob with the Commissar is the target for "Honour of Cadia," and the Demolishers go behind the little dressing screen on the table flank with "Tactical Genius: Do Not Look" written on the front. :smalltongue:

Problems:

1) The army seems like a nice little concept, but overall I think that you're overdoing it with the demolishers. Whilst I understand that you want to maximise the amount of demolishers that benefit from Tactical Genius, three cannons and three multi-meltas at full BS (What you will be firing, if I remember how Lumbering behemoth acts in conjunction with new rules) is overkill for any target.

2) You lack any anti-air whatsoever, and, whilst I do think you have enough bodies to ignore flyers, most will still be able to take a large toll on your ground troops (all except for vendetta, I think). If they manage to get rear armour hits on your demolishers somehow (I'm assuming you will be trying to outflank as close as possible to your opponents table edge to avoid flyer fire when appropriate), then the majority of your army's hitting power is effectively neutered, leaving everything else as easy pickings.

3) You lack presence before your demolishers show up. No army is scared of what you have on the board when it comes to the beginning of the game. 3 twin-linked lascannons are only ever going to take out 1 vehicle max every turn, and that assuming that there isn't anything blocking LOS to valuable targets. You have 3 Chimera chassis that are rolling up (I'm assuming you're keeping creed at the back to shout out orders), but those can be killed in 1, maybe 2 turns of shooting by the majority of army comps. Even if you do get in there, I don't think it will provide much of a threat, since you only have three meltaguns on a single platform, they'll probably be dead by that time.

Recommendations:

1)What I would recommend you do is skimp on the demolishers, freeing up a lot of points which you could use elsewhere. The main thing I see that you are missing is a few Vendettas, which not only will solve your AA problem, but will also help bolster your long-range threat, at least from mid-game.

2) I don't see Kell or the vox-casters being too useful, but I just prefer having more guns as opposed to an upgrade character which hardly gives my HWT more efficiency (in fact, 6 ACs deal more HP damage than 3 Twin-linked Lascannons at all AV levels except for 13 and 14, and that's discounting the fact that they are better against infantry and that they are still TL against Vehicles and MCs some of the time). I would personally get rid of the non-blob platoon altogether, adding another squad to your infantry blob and getting several AC HWT to meet your long-range fire support needs. Whilst this does reduce your presence midfield even more, not only are they one of the most efficient forms of ranged anti-tank in the whole game due to weight of fire, but you also save much more in terms of points (or you get more out of them). Not sure how to make up for the disparagement in mech, so I would completely remove the hellhound and vet squad in favour of more blob, but that's your call.

3) Switch the grenade launchers on the blob platoon for flamers, but I think that's a matter of preference. Kraks and/or meltabombs on some, if not all of the squads would be nice too, but optional. I also hope those are power axes, but I'm assuming you know that already :P

Hope this helps

[Renegade Paladin]

I know the Demolishers are overkill for most things. I usually see a pair of Land Raiders, generally run in tandem (and thus scatter-bait). I could take the multimeltas off, but the sponsons are glued to the sides on two of my three Russes. The weapons come out, but empty sponsons just kind of look stupid.

The only one who runs fliers in the metagame? This guy. :smalltongue:

Kell is there for three reasons. First, taking orders on Ld 10 is awesome. Second, my primary opposition is Blood Angels, and he is the only source of I4 power weapons in the codex for when they're inevitably prying the Chimera door open on turn 2. (This is the other reason I'm considering bodyguards in addition besides additional Look Out, Sir!; to raise the squad's majority WS to 4.) Third, I put a lot of work into converting that model, and I want to use it. :smalltongue: The sad fact of my metagame as it stands is that I will be assaulted early and assaulted often, and there is not enough shooting in the entire Guard to stop it from happening. It's to the point where I'm seriously considering Terminator allies just to put a halt to that nonsense.

[Squark]

I decided to play around with my space wolves list a bit. It's still 1250 points, but now I don't have to proxy as many missile fangs. Comments?


HQ: Wolf Lord -205 pts
-Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Saga of the Bear

Rune Priest -120 pts
-Runic Sword (Because WYSIWYG), Runic Armor
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

Elites: Wolf Guard Pack -274 pts
-Arjac Rockfist
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (x7) -170 pts
-Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
-Drop Pod

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (x6) -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers
TOTAL:1249 points

Also, which HQ do you think makes more sense in the drop pod, and should that influence my choice of warlord (If I decide to switch up who's in the drop pod; for instance, the Rune Priest is an excellent choice against necrons where he can drop down and use jaws to annihilate a squad, while the Wolf Lord might be a better choice at other times)?

[Cheesegear]

Comments?

I'll go.


Wolf Lord - 205 pts
-Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Saga of the Bear

Quite a significant chunk of points. Especially for 1250. Unfortunately, a better Wolf Lord is more points. I'd consider dropping him to a Battle Leader. But then you'd lose Bear. I don't like it. But there's no solution to make him better without costing more points, or taking him out entirely - which may not be something you want to do.

Wolf Lords are expensive. :smallfrown:


Rune Priest -120 pts
-Runic Sword (Because WYSIWYG), Runic Armor
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

I don't like the Runic Armour. I just don't think he needs it. He's got a 2+ Invulnerable against shooting attacks, and if your Rune Priest is in Assault, something has gone wrong and you probably can't do anything about it anyway. Which is why I'm not particularly fussed about the Rune Sword.

A Rune Priest is generally an auto-include. And, again, it's only 1250, and having two HQs in 1250 - especially one that costs 200 points - isn't ideal.


Wolf Guard Pack -274 pts
-Arjac Rockfist
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma

You need a Wolf Lord and Arjac in 1250?
I really, really dislike Combi-Plasmas. But that's just me. Your Rune Priest also makes me sad because there's no Chooser or Beastslayer, and I'm trying to find points so you can do that.


Grey Hunters Pack (x7) -170 pts
-Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
-Drop Pod

With Wolf Lord and Arjac? ...Death Stars really don't belong in 1250 games. You can't support them.


Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Looks good to me. Wolf Standards aren't great. You could drop them with no significant downside.


Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

Yep.


Long Fangs Pack (x6) -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers

My issue with this is that 1250 is not a large game. You've got 4 units on the board, and 3 if your opponent goes first*. Considering you've got a 200 point HQ, I'd drop him and add a second unit of Long Fangs just to spread out the targets.

* If you go first, you should be okay. If you go second...Not so much. You'll be ruined if your opponent has any clue and has Allied himself with even one Strike Knight squad, or Hell...You can just have a bad Scatter on the 'Pod and that's game over.

[Provengreil]

Also, which HQ do you think makes more sense in the drop pod, and should that influence my choice of warlord (If I decide to switch up who's in the drop pod; for instance, the Rune Priest is an excellent choice against necrons where he can drop down and use jaws to annihilate a squad, while the Wolf Lord might be a better choice at other times)?

With the list in its current form, the lord for sure. You've no other fast way to get him into combat, and Living Lightning doesn't have a range limit anyway. I'd say put personal traits on the wolf lord and ram him in there as fast as you can.

Also, I agree with CG that you've a bit too much concentrated firepower for such a small list. Consider dropping Arjac or the wolf lord for extra transports or something, get those grey hunters into position. More longfangs really can't hurt either(you at least).

[Squark]

My question is, if not a combi-plasma, what should go in the Plasma squad? a Combi-flamer (Actually, that's not a bad idea given that it can also go in the drop pod squad if I'm against a list that has absolutely nothing for a melta to shoot)?

Revised list
HQ: Rune Priest -120 pts
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain
--Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning

Elites: Wolf Guard Pack -274 pts
-Arjac Rockfist
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-?

Troops: 8 Grey Hunters -185 pts
-Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

10 Grey Hunters -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard Mark of the Wulfen

10 Grey Hunters -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

Heavy support: 6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

Total: 1199 points (51 points left)

Cutting the Wolf Lord gives me enough points for a second Long Fangs Pack, and still leaves me with 50 points left over. The question is... I don't know what to use them for.

[Provengreil]

If you can free up ten points somehow(drop a wolf standard, or both?) a predator is all right for its cost, and better if you can find the last few for bolter sponsons. A lone wolf is also an excellent way to use the last few points in a list. Grey hunters can have a lot more wargear, so you can soak up a few extra points that way as well. A power weapon of some sort on the drop pod squad would, at this point, be a good choice IMO. Some transportation for the longfangs could bring an extra gun or two to the field and give you redeployability.

[BoSheck]

I'd say negatory on the pred. Just a target for anti-tank weaponry, where there is no real clear one before. I'm a big fan of Terminator Lone Wolves, and a lot of people will disagree with me on them, but they really do so much heavy lifting. Also, for the price of Arjac's Squad...you could just actually have 5 or more wolf guard terminators with some upgrades. Don't get me wrong, Arjac is a pretty heavy lifter, but opportunity cost and all that in small point value game.

[Squark]

*Does math in head* How does this look? (If anyone has the space wolves codex on them, check my math on the Terminator's point cost. I'm away from my books for a week, so I'm just using the number I remember for the price of the Chainfist and the Cyclone Missile Launcher.
+wolf Guard terminators list

HQ: Rune Priest -120 pts
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain
--Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning

Elites: 5 Wolf Guard Terminators -240 pts
-Terminator armor, Power maul, Heavy Flamer
-Terminator armor, Power maul, Combi-melta
-Terminator armor, Power axe, Combi-melta
-Terminator armor, Power axe, Combi-melta
-Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Combi-melta
--Drop Pod

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders-129 pts
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma
-Powerfist, Combi-flamer

Troops: 10 Grey Hunters -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

10 Grey Hunters -155 pts
-2 Meltaguns

10 Grey Hunters -155 pts
-2 Meltaguns

Heavy support: 6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

Total: 1239 points

[BoSheck]

I left my codex in another county, so I'm not 100% sure on the problem, but I know for a fact your wolfguard terminators are a bit over on points.
Without the drop pod even included, they should be something like 235. That, too, is from memory, and I haven't built a wolf list in a long time.

Also you could consolidate them into 1 single unit of 8, then you don't always have to send in all the terminators and can break some off to be packleaderswithout blunting your melta-drop.

[Squark]

I left my codex in another county, so I'm not 100% sure on the problem, but I know for a fact your wolfguard terminators are a bit over on points.
Without the drop pod even included, they should be something like 235. That, too, is from memory, and I haven't built a wolf list in a long time.

Also you could consolidate them into 1 single unit of 8, then you don't always have to send in all the terminators and can break some off to be packleaderswithout blunting your melta-drop.

I was planning to consolidate the wolf guard into one unit after I finished tweaking the list, I just split them into two units for organization purposes. And yeah, I spotted the math error there. Honestly, a heavy flamer makes more sense there anyway. That leaves me with 10 points to spare, which I can use for one wolf standard or a pair of 5 point upgrades (Say, a wolf tail talisman for the rune priest and melta bombs for one of the power axe terminators)

[lord_khaine]

So, my local store is holding a small friendly tournament of 800 points, and im trying to build a necron army that fun to play against, while still having a chance of winning.


Overlord Necromus Prime, Semipernal weave and warscythe - 115
9 warrios - 117
9 warriors -117
C'tan shard Volcron, thunderbolt and spirit dust - 250
2 Wraiths, whipcoils, - 90
2 Tomb spyders - 100


Since its my first 6th ed necron list, then im hoping for a bit of feedback on it, and the C'tan is secured a position due to him being a recent conversion :smallsmile:

[Squark]

I think you either need to beef the wraith unit up, or drop it. I'd probably replace it with 2 crypteks for those warriors. Also, your C'tan Shard could really use Lord of the Flame over Spirit Dust. Lastly, I think your tomb spyders need gloom prisms.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm, so i either have to find 35 points for another wraith, or something usefull to do with cryptecs for 90 points.

or i guess i could remove the whip coils, and use them to chase down targets who cant fight back.

The reason for spirit dust however, is that i suspect there will be a lot of city ruins with 4+ cover safe, the stealth would then provide a welcome 3+ cover safe to deal with poisoned weapons and weight of fire.

[HalfTangible]

I don't like following advice i don't understand. Could someone please explain to me why BA captains are, apparently, so very bad? >.>

[Cheesegear]

I don't like following advice i don't understand. Could someone please explain to me why BA captains are, apparently, so very bad? >.>

Short answer; Because BAs get Reclusiarchs making Captains pointless unless you want a Terminator Captain - which you don't.

The long answer is probably the thing you don't understand.

[Hootman]

I don't like following advice i don't understand. Could someone please explain to me why BA captains are, apparently, so very bad? >.>

They're not actually bad, there are just multiple better options--Librarians, Chaplains, and even some of the special characters are all much better for their points in general. Anything Captain can do (aside from Blood Rodeo) the others can do just as well and do with special abilities on top of it. They also tend to be slightly cheaper, which is nice.

[Cheesegear]

Anything Captain can do (aside from Blood Rodeo) the others can do just as well and do with special abilities on top of it. They also tend to be slightly cheaper, which is nice.

Blood Angels don't need a Captain for Blood Rodeo - and they never have. And in fact still function better with Librarians and Reclusiarchs. The only good Captain is a Codex Captain on a Bike.

[Squark]

Blood Angels don't need a Captain for Blood Rodeo - and they never have. And in fact still function better with Librarians and Reclusiarchs. The only good Captain is a Codex Captain on a Bike.

Well, also Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves.

@Lord_Khaine 90 points is more than enough for 2 Crypteks... Let me think...

Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction: 35 points
Mindshackle Scarabs for your Lord: 20 points
Cryptek Harbinger of Destuction: 35 points

That's 90 points right there, and if you want, you can change one or both of the Harbingers of Destruction into cheaper versions to free up points for some Cryptek wargear. I know you said you wanted it to be fun to play against, but... Necron Overlords who are not Nemesor Zahndrekh should always have mindshackle scarabs. Besides, they're only really annoying when 2 or more of them are in one combat.

[lord_khaine]

Must admit i also liked the idea of having more models on the board to draw attention away from my Cryptech, though i can see the point in having some additional firepower from the harbringers.

Mindshackle scarabs were a good call however, but how does they work in regard to a challenge?

[Voidhawk]

Must admit i also liked the idea of having more models on the board to draw attention away from my Cryptech, though i can see the point in having some additional firepower from the harbringers.

Mindshackle scarabs were a good call however, but how does they work in regard to a challenge?

In a challenge you only count as being in base contact with the opponent, so the scarabs can only hit him. Moreover, hits generated by the character can only be assigned to himself. Giving the opponent a 50% or better chance of punching himself to death is really good.

It also led to the hilarious situation in a Cron vs Cron game I played, where we both brought Destroyer Lords as Warlords, and they met each other on the field of honour. They flew forwards, crashed into one another, and then proceeded to spend the entire challenge beating themselves round the head with their own weapons and died.

As a side note, they're only 15 points, except on the Destroyer Lord, where they're 20.

[Cheesegear]

Well, also Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves.

Rune Priests say otherwise. The massive points cost of a Wolf Lord (minimum about 200, before Thunderwolf), also says otherwise.

[Maugan Ra]

Figured I might as well put up the Guard lists I tend to use for general review. The 210th Cadian stands at somewhere around 6,500pts when all fielded together, though that is naturally quite a rare thing nowadays.

(It does happen occasionally, though, and is rather horrific when it does. A pure Guard force is obscene at apocolypse levels, especially when you have enough models to field several distinct formations.)

Anyway, first up, the Infantry Horde list. The mechanized list shall be along later, once I've reviewed all the different tanks I actually have.


HQ

Company Command Squad (320pts)
- Ursarker E. Creed and Jarren Kell
- Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet
- Veteran with Vox-caster, two with las guns
- All have Carapace armour

Company Command squad (85pts)
- Vox caster, Carapace armour

Elites

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

Troops

Platoon Command squad Alpha (50pts)
- Vox caster, three grenade launchers

4 x Infantry Squads (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

2 x Heavy Weapons squad (180pts)
- Three missile launchers each

3 x Heavy Weapons squads (315pts
- Three Lascannons each

Platoon Command squad Beta (45pts)
- Vox caster and two grenade launchers

4 x Infantry squad (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

3 x Heavy Weapon squads (225pts)
- Six Autocannons, three heavy bolters

Total = 2,000pts exactly

Tactics: In case it wasn't obvious, this list basically revolves around massed firepower and lots of orders. The Quad Guns come from Imperial Armour Apocoplypse 2, and are specifically noted as being elites choices in smaller lists. Each of them throws out four S5 templates a turn at AP5, and I have six of them. The heavy weapons squads can all be given orders to make them twin-linked when shooting at vehicles or monstrous creatures, and as they're troops choices, they work wonderfully for sitting on objectives.

The infantry squads are, essentially, meat shields. They tend to head straight for the enemy deployment zone or contested objectives, with the platoon commanders tagging along to enhance their rate of fire or get them running faster. Ten squads of objective-capturing troops are not a target that can be freely ignored, especially when they pump out so many shots a turn. The Legionnairre who scoffs at a las gun, after all, has never charged across an open field at a hundred of them. The flamethrowers are also useful for simply sticking hits on the enemy.

[Renegade Paladin]

What gets Tactical Genius? You're paying a lot of points for Creed, so something should be scouting.

Also, AP4 and better is common as dirt. Your command squad is probably better off with camo cloaks and a big piece of cover.

Edit: You're overcosting yourself, too. Carapace armor on command squads doesn't cost that much; your non-Creed one should be 75 points and Creed's should be 310.

[Maugan Ra]

I'll admit, nothing is really designed with Tactical Genius in mind. I take Creed mostly for the 24" radius on his orders and the fact that he issues four of them a turn. Kell is there for a mix of thematic reasons and in order to allow receiving units to test for orders on Creed's leadership of 10.

You might have a point about the carapace. I rarely get to rely on cover for the command squad though, since officers have to be able to draw line of sight to enemy models to use things like Bring it Down. And with the new wound allocation rules, having Creed sticking his head out means that Creed is going to be the one getting shot.

[Cheesegear]

And with the new wound allocation rules, having Creed sticking his head out means that Creed is going to be the one getting shot.

As a Character, Creed still has a 4+ Invulnerable vs. Shooting (he's not Independent :smallfrown:). However, Bodyguards are just as good and don't require Look Out rolls.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'll admit, nothing is really designed with Tactical Genius in mind. I take Creed mostly for the 24" radius on his orders and the fact that he issues four of them a turn. Kell is there for a mix of thematic reasons and in order to allow receiving units to test for orders on Creed's leadership of 10.

You might have a point about the carapace. I rarely get to rely on cover for the command squad though, since officers have to be able to draw line of sight to enemy models to use things like Bring it Down. And with the new wound allocation rules, having Creed sticking his head out means that Creed is going to be the one getting shot.
No, Kell is going to be the one getting shot. :smalltongue: You seem to misunderstand how cover works, though; the entire model doesn't have to be out of sight to get a cover save. If it did, it would defeat the purpose of cover since you can't shoot targets you can't see at all.

You can at least give Tactical Genius to one of the platoons. Even if they don't outflank, being able to scout a blob up has its uses. Not having a Commissar means they're going to fold in assault very, very quickly, though.

[thereaper]

Can a Dreadnought being carrying by a Stormraven (in this case a Venerable one) still fire? If so, are there any restrictions on it?

[Cheesegear]

Can a Dreadnought being carrying by a Stormraven (in this case a Venerable one) still fire?

No. More words.

[Maugan Ra]

No, Kell is going to be the one getting shot. :smalltongue: You seem to misunderstand how cover works, though; the entire model doesn't have to be out of sight to get a cover save. If it did, it would defeat the purpose of cover since you can't shoot targets you can't see at all.

You can at least give Tactical Genius to one of the platoons. Even if they don't outflank, being able to scout a blob up has its uses. Not having a Commissar means they're going to fold in assault very, very quickly, though.

Yeah, but Kell is apparently insecure about his job, and thus does not allow other bodyguards in a unit with him. So if Creed is taking the hits, they transfer straight onto Kell, until Kell falls over and the following hits go right back onto Creed. Arranging the unit so that Creed isn't closest to the enemy tends to reduce his line of sight.

And true. If anything in the army gets tactical genius, it'd be one of the platoons. Not for advancing forwards necessarily, but being able to shuffle my heavy weapons about to clear fire lanes if I deployed first is often a fun tactic to use.

I am very aware that my troops don't stand up to assault very well, even with a Commissar. This is entirely acceptable to me. So the enemy overkills one squad, the others close in and spray infinite las-gun fire into them. Even more with snapshots. Combined squads are used only when the enemy is playing for kill points or something (which is considerably rarer nowadays)

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, but Kell is apparently insecure about his job, and thus does not allow other bodyguards in a unit with him.
Yes he does. Nork Deddog doesn't let you take other bodyguards; Kell is fine.

[Maugan Ra]

Hmm? *checks codex*

Well damn. I've been working on the wrong basis for that for quite a while now...

[shadowwalker64]

Figured I might as well put up the Guard lists I tend to use for general review. The 210th Cadian stands at somewhere around 6,500pts when all fielded together, though that is naturally quite a rare thing nowadays.

(It does happen occasionally, though, and is rather horrific when it does. A pure Guard force is obscene at apocolypse levels, especially when you have enough models to field several distinct formations.)

Anyway, first up, the Infantry Horde list. The mechanized list shall be along later, once I've reviewed all the different tanks I actually have.


HQ

Company Command Squad (320pts)
- Ursarker E. Creed and Jarren Kell
- Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet
- Veteran with Vox-caster, two with las guns
- All have Carapace armour

Company Command squad (85pts)
- Vox caster, Carapace armour

Elites

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

Troops

Platoon Command squad Alpha (50pts)
- Vox caster, three grenade launchers

4 x Infantry Squads (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

2 x Heavy Weapons squad (180pts)
- Three missile launchers each

3 x Heavy Weapons squads (315pts
- Three Lascannons each

Platoon Command squad Beta (45pts)
- Vox caster and two grenade launchers

4 x Infantry squad (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

3 x Heavy Weapon squads (225pts)
- Six Autocannons, three heavy bolters

Total = 2,000pts exactly

Tactics: In case it wasn't obvious, this list basically revolves around massed firepower and lots of orders. The Quad Guns come from Imperial Armour Apocoplypse 2, and are specifically noted as being elites choices in smaller lists. Each of them throws out four S5 templates a turn at AP5, and I have six of them. The heavy weapons squads can all be given orders to make them twin-linked when shooting at vehicles or monstrous creatures, and as they're troops choices, they work wonderfully for sitting on objectives.

The infantry squads are, essentially, meat shields. They tend to head straight for the enemy deployment zone or contested objectives, with the platoon commanders tagging along to enhance their rate of fire or get them running faster. Ten squads of objective-capturing troops are not a target that can be freely ignored, especially when they pump out so many shots a turn. The Legionnairre who scoffs at a las gun, after all, has never charged across an open field at a hundred of them. The flamethrowers are also useful for simply sticking hits on the enemy.

By Infantry Horde, I hope you mean blob-guard, since IG use combined squads to form their hordes. Comments are therefore based on the list as pure blob-guard.

1) The main thing that strikes me in this list is the fact that you have little which can deal with AV13, which is quite common what with the prominence of Autolas preds and Necron quantum shielding. Apart from the master of ordanace, lascannons and missile launchers, you have nothing to deal with them reliably: at range or in CC. Putting more efficient forms of AV on the field will help solve this problem (replacing the lascannon HWT w/ 3 vendettas, for example), as will giving your infantry squads some meltabombs.

2) Your blobs... well, they aren't proper blobs. You say you're running horde guard, but you're missing a lot of things that makes a successful horde, such as morale immunity and actual CC capability. Adding a commissar to both blobs will help greatly in this, providing stubborn for everything in those infantry blobs. In addition, putting power weapons (axes, to be precise) on all of the sarges and commissars will help with CC, as well as giving melta bombs to the sarges as well. The latter will help make sure that you cannot be tied up by walkers indefinitely, and that you can have some way of taking out vehicles in midfield which may be of value.

3) The list has a lot of either useless or otherwise very inefficient units. Your quad guns, not only being FW (which may be a problem in some cases), are doing a job that guard are already good at. The same can be said for the HB HWT. I would recommend taking these two out in favour of LRBT. Not only will they put some beef into your relatively 'squishy' army, but they also provide decent ranged AT fire when upgraded with hull-lascannon, and they can fill an Anti-infantry role if need be. Creed and Kell seem very out of place here, especially with nothing being tactical genius'd. I would take both out if you aren't going to be outflanking. These points can be spent upgrading your infantry blobs. Carapace armour and the second CCS can be removed, especially the former. Giving the CCS's Autocannons and Plasma guns with the spare points can bolster your ranged firepower. If you choose to go vendettas, you can also outfit your PCS's with flamers/meltaguns to suit your needs, though I'm not familiar with how much you would lose out if you didn't have them on the field giving out orders (FRFSRF seems decent enough, but eh). Chimeras are decent if vendettas aren't used, and can give a hybrid feel to the army without diverging from the concept too much.

Hope that helps :)

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmm? *checks codex*

Well damn. I've been working on the wrong basis for that for quite a while now...
In addition, Nork doesn't say a thing about Kell, so you can have all kinds of very expensive bodyguarding if you want. :smallcool:

[Maugan Ra]

Shadow - Thanks for the feedback. Working through it point by point...

Firstly, I have nine Lascannons and six missile launchers, all of which can usually be twin-linked. Hell, against AV13 and with the hull points addition in 6th edition, the six Autocannons can also chip in quite successfully. For a 2,000pts list, that seems entirely sufficient. I've certainly never run into a problem of not having enough anti-tank in the army before...

Secondly, nope, I don't mean blob guard. The individual infantry squads are, 90% of the time, running around as separate units. Combined squads are for when I'm playing kill points (Or Purge the Alien, as it's called now). I have little CC capability in those units because, frankly, they're not designed for close combat. Their job is to run for objectives (having enough forces to make a viable play for every objective on the field is very useful) and to pour on rapid-fire volleys against just about anything they could possibly hurt.

Putting them in blobs just means I have a single target for the enemy to concentrate his fire and CC against, as well as limiting my own flexibility. Rallying is now always possible provided I have at least 25% of a unit left, and for those occasions when I only have one or two, the Get Back in the Fight order allows me to rally them as well.

I've never run into problems with the Quad Guns being disallowed before, and frankly, that many S5 templates a turn is worth the investment, I find. They have to stop firing every third turn, but it's still worth it.

I've never understood the focus on Creed's Tactical Genius rule. It's nice, sure, but I've always viewed a single scouting unit as basically being a bonus. The real value is that he can contribute twice as many orders as any other officer, at twice the range. When those orders allow you to do things like twin-link your weapons, get a +2 cover save, auto-rally a unit or force the enemy to re-roll his cover saves, Creed becomes easily worth his 90pts. And if I absolutely need a combat punch, For the Glory of Cadia allows him to give fearless and furious charge to a unit.

[Renegade Paladin]

To a small unit. The reason for blobbing is order efficiency; you simply will not have enough orders if you have that many individual squads running around. Also, Tactical Genius permits you to do crazy stuff like put Demolishers or Bane Wolves (or Baneblades or Warhound Titans, or...) on the enemy flank. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

I've never understood the focus on Creed's Tactical Genius rule. It's nice, sure, but I've always viewed a single scouting unit as basically being a bonus. The real value is that he can contribute twice as many orders as any other officer, at twice the range.

Wrong. The real value is Tactical Genius. Look at Creed's points cost. Look at how much it costs to get a whole 'nother Command Squad...With upgrades. You get the same amount of Orders, you get about 50% more range if you spread your Officers out. And, before you were separating your Infantry Squads to give your opponent more targets, etc.

Since you have both HQ slots filled anyway, Creed can be slotted out (and the Master of Ordnance is rarely effective), you can have nearly a whole 'nother Infantry Platoon - which has the Command Squad. Or maybe some Hellhounds, or a couple of Sentinels.

Creed is only - only - worth his points when he uses Tactical Genius correctly.

[Squark]

Also, unless your meta is voluntarily changing the rules, you need 2 more troop choices at 2000 points (because you have a second force organization chart at 2000 points, which means 2 HQs and 4 Troop choices mandatory selections)

Also... At 2000 points, 10 guardsmen without a transport are going to poof into non-existance very quickly, especially since you plan to have them go for objectives (And thus, they are that much less likely to have a cover save). You need to blob things up in order for them to survive . Also, you're sacrificing a lot of effectiveness for that flexibility, as you only have so many orders to give to them (And guardsmen sans orders are... kind of pathetic). Blobbing them makes First Rank, Second Rank that much stronger (40-60 lasgun shots is enough to actually threaten a tactical squad, and if you go up to 30 in a blob, well, so much the better), and means you don't need to waste orders on Get Back In the Fight as often.

[HalfTangible]

Also, unless your meta is voluntarily changing the rules, you need 2 more troop choices at 2000 points (because you have a second force organization chart at 2000 points, which means 2 HQs and 4 Troop choices mandatory selections)

Also... At 2000 points, 10 guardsmen without a transport are going to poof into non-existance very quickly, especially since you plan to have them go for objectives (And thus, they are that much less likely to have a cover save). You need to blob things up in order for them to survive . Also, you're sacrificing a lot of effectiveness for that flexibility, as you only have so many orders to give to them (And guardsmen sans orders are... kind of pathetic). Blobbing them makes First Rank, Second Rank that much stronger (40-60 lasgun shots is enough to actually threaten a tactical squad, and if you go up to 30 in a blob, well, so much the better), and means you don't need to waste orders on Get Back In the Fight as often.

Whoa whoa whoa. The second force org chart is compulsory?

[DaedalusMkV]

Whoa whoa whoa. The second force org chart is compulsory?

It is not. If you make any use of the second FOC you need to meet the minimum requirements for it, but if you choose not to use it at all you're totally okay.

[Renegade Paladin]

Small Apocalypse game today. List: Apocalypse List

3000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Leman Russ Vanquisher - 180
-Company command tank (IA1)
-Lascannon

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad - 105
-Two meltaguns

Armored Fist Platoon - 25
-Veteran Squad - 155
--Three meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport
-Veteran Squad - 155
--Three meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport
-Veteran Squad - 155
--2 flamers
--Heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---2 heavy flamers

Veteran Squad - 200
-Gunnery Sergeant Harker
-Two flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 160
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Leman Russ battle tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery - 25
-Basilisk - 125
-Basilisk - 125
-Basilisk - 125

Manticore - 160

Baneblade - 500
It's five points over, but at 3k who really cares? Especially since this is with the kid who hosed me playing 2500 against 1750. >_>

[Squark]

And if he gives you flack about it, just tell him to put a melta bomb on something.


So, now that I'm back at school, Space Wolves vs. Necrons teaching list, take 2!

Necrons

HQ: Necron Overlord -145 pts
-Warscythe, Phase Shifter

Troops: 5 Necron Immortals with Gauss Blasters -85 pts
5 Necron Immortals with Guass Blasters-85 pts

Fast Attack: 3 Necron Tomb Blades -90 pts
-Particle Beamers

Total: 405 pts

Space Wolves

HQ: Wolf Guard Battle Leader -140 pts
-Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor

Troops: 5 Grey Hunters -85 pts
-Plasmagun
5 Grey Hunters -85 pts
-Plasmagun

Heavy Support: 4 Long Fangs -90 pts
-3 Missile Launchers

Total: 400 points

On the one hand, I'd kind of like to fit in another special unit into each army. On the other hand, I'm not sure quite what that would be for each army, given my collection is light on elite troops. Hmm... Perhaps I could add Wolf Guard and Crypteks/Lords to the units?

[Renegade Paladin]

I roundly stomped him. Vanquisher command tank > Land Raider. :smallbiggrin: His own deployment zone was completely empty of his units by the end of turn 5, and I held four objectives to one.

[The_Final_Stand]

Could I get some advice?

I got a box of Immortals/Deathmarks for my birthday the other week, and I'm not sure what to assemble them as.

Bearing in mind I already have 40 Warriors, and the only Elites I have are 5 Pariahs turned Lychguard (and 5 Flayed Ones, but I never use those), I'm tempted to make a bunch of Deathmarks and use them as Big Scary Thing killers (where BST refers either to Monstrous Creatures (high toughness) or anything that deals a disproportionate amount of hurt in assault). I just felt I'd get a second opinion.

[Squark]

Could I get some advice?

I got a box of Immortals/Deathmarks for my birthday the other week, and I'm not sure what to assemble them as.

Bearing in mind I already have 40 Warriors, and the only Elites I have are 5 Pariahs turned Lychguard (and 5 Flayed Ones, but I never use those), I'm tempted to make a bunch of Deathmarks and use them as Big Scary Thing killers (where BST refers either to Monstrous Creatures (high toughness) or anything that deals a disproportionate amount of hurt in assault). I just felt I'd get a second opinion.

Deathmarks are very, very needy in regards to elite slots. If you take one squad, you really want three. Also, Monstrous Creatures aren't an enormous threat at the moment, and most "Big Scary Things" have invulnerable saves that will take the bite out of a lot of your firepower. Personally, I'd go with Immortals, for more versatility in the troop section. Probably Tesla, since you've got a fair ammount of Gauss already.

[Voidhawk]

Seeing as you seem to have a reasonable number of troops already, I'd go with the Deathmarks. Contrary to Squark's opinion, I've found with experimentation that you only need a small number to be effective, while Immortals like being in larger squads so they can get the full benefit of Reanimation.

The way I've been playing them is the standard one-shot elite infantry counter. I attach a Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness to them, and park them at the back of my deployment zone, generally hiding behind a tank.
Then I select in my mind an enemy unit that I really want to die (thunder-wolves, nob-bikers, hive-tyrants, terminators etc), and when they appear (or get close to a reliable anti-tank unit if they're in a transport) I jump forward and hose them down. Very little can walk unscathed through a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with AP 1 and no cover allowed.

They almost never survive the retaliatory fire, but the amount of damage they do in their short life span is considerable to say the least. Plus, the enemies gut reaction is often to charge into cc with them, generating another free d3 hits with the harbinger, and often finishing the unit off before they reach them.

[thedavo]

So, played my first games of 6th ed over the weekend.

1st game:

1500 points vs Eldar - the seize the central objective mission.

my list:

HQ – warboss – big choppa, twin linked shoota, eavy armour, attack squig, cybork body, bosspole
HQ – big mek – KFF eavy armour
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Troops – 20 Slugga boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Elites – 12 Lootas (maybe split into 2 units of 6?)
Elites – 10 Tankbustas + 3 Bommsquigs
Fast Attack - Dakkajet, 3 twin linked supa shootas, fighta ace, red paint job
Heavy support – 3 zooka kans
Heavy support – 3 zooka kans

Eldar:

Farseer
Guardian squad w/warlock and scatter laser
10 avengers w/exarch, bladestorm, and wave serpent x2
Some Harlequins and Shadowseer
10 Scorpions w/exarch
6 Fire Dragons w/exarch
Falcon

Went well - won 3-1 due to getting the artifact, first blood (on the Scorpions) and killing the Farseer, he got my Warboss. Tankbustas did nothing, the Dakkajet didn't show until turn 4 but then blasted a unit of Avengers to smithereens (Waaaagh!) Getting used to the taking dead models from the front took a while, but game seemed to flow fairly smoothly. One of the Kan mobs managed to take down most of the Guardians and the Farseer before getting Haywired to death.

Second game was vs Blood Angels, 1000pts

HQ – warboss – eavy armour, big choppa, attack squig, cybork body, bosspole, twin linked shoota
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Elites – 11 Lootas
Fast Attack - Dakkajet, 3 twin linked supa shootas, fighta ace, red paint job
HQ – big mek – KFF eavy armour
Heavy support – 3 zooka kans

Blood Angels:

Chaplain w/ Death Company in a Rhino
10 Assault Marines
5 scouts w/ Heavy Bolter
10 man Tactical Squad w/Flamer and Missile Launcher
3 Bikes w/ meltagun and plasma gun

5 objectives scattered around the battlefield, won 6-4 I think. Rhino got blown up by the Lootas on turn 1, and then pummelled the Death Company with shooting. Dakkajet showed up on turn 2 and was a general nuisance.

Overall impressions were good, had a lot of fun, and should be playing either my mate's Dark Eldar or Nids on Thursday depending on what he brings.

[The_Jackal]

Very little can walk unscathed through a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with AP 1 and no cover allowed.

Too bad Deathmarks don't have AP1. They have AP -.

[Borgh]

Too bad Deathmarks don't have AP1. They have AP -.

Yes, however the harbinger has this neat staff that does.
And the guns are sniper rifles so they still get rending.

[Hawkfrost000]

So, played my first games of 6th ed over the weekend.

Overall impressions were good, had a lot of fun, and should be playing either my mate's Dark Eldar or Nids on Thursday depending on what he brings.

My friend has discovered the most brutal Ork unit ever.

10 Burna Boys 150
Looted Wagon w Skorcha and Red Paint Job 55

11 flame templates anyone?

DM

[thedavo]

15 Burna Boyz in a Battlewagon?

[Borgh]

Yes, they are incredibly nasty. I've met them before.

However, once you realize they only have 7" range and are rather flimsy they die once you point some medium range, medium power guns at them.

[CN the Logos]

So, I recently played a game with a guy who told me that Necron Warscythes had been errataed to be Unwieldy, thus reducing my Overlord's effective initiative to one and making her far less effective against his Warboss than she would have been otherwise. However, upon looking up the rules tonight and trying to find that update, I can't. Indeed, my google-fu mostly turns up references to how great it is that Warscythes aren't Unwieldy. I'm not seeing anything about it in the Necron FAQ either. Is there something I'm missing, or was he mistaken? :smallconfused:

Also, I have three Destroyers with no weapons glued on yet. One of them is going to become a Destroyer Lord, but I'm torn between modeling the other two as Heavies or regular Destroyers. Any thoughts? If it makes a difference, I've got three regular Destroyers already.

Thanks in advance.

[Cheesegear]

Is there something I'm missing, or was he mistaken? :smallconfused:

He was mistaken or cheating. Originally there was confusion, "If it looks like an axe, then it's an axe." But, it is a unique Necron weapon, and is not an axe.

Per the Necron Errata (GW Website);
S+2, AP1, Melee, Armourbane, Two-Handed.

It is not Unwieldy.

I've also seen a tendency for people to confuse Specialist Weapon, Two-Handed and Unwieldy between each other at different times (usually when it suits the player :smallannoyed:).

[CN the Logos]

He was mistaken or cheating. Originally there was confusion, "If it looks like an axe, then it's an axe." But, it is a unique Necron weapon, and is not an axe.

Per the Necron Errata (GW Website);
S+2, AP1, Melee, Armourbane, Two-Handed.

It is not Unwieldy.

I've also seen a tendency for people to confuse Specialist Weapon, Two-Handed and Unwieldy between each other at different times (usually when it suits the player :smallannoyed:).

Ah, thank you. Having talked to this guy a few times, he doesn't seem like the sort to cheat in a friendly game, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. That's going to help my Overlord tremendously next time though. (Insert something unintelligible and probably obscene about challenges here.)

[lord_khaine]

Ah, thank you. Having talked to this guy a few times, he doesn't seem like the sort to cheat in a friendly game, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. That's going to help my Overlord tremendously next time though. (Insert something unintelligible and probably obscene about challenges here.)

Next time i recomend inserting Mindshackle Scarabs instead, much more fun.

"Stop hitting yourself with your power klaw, stop hitting yourself with your power klaw" :smalltongue:

[Timberwolf]

That's the reason why if I see any Necron Overlords, Trazyn, Royal Courts and anyone else with those things they are shot to death in a display of gunshippy power, right after any Croissant of Despairs are killed. I really don't like those things and a Multimelta to the face means I never have to deal with them.

[Maugan Ra]

I have a sorting system for working out who to shoot, and in what order. It tends to vary depending on the army, though. For Blood Angels, as an example, the more gold, skulls and/or wings you had, the faster you had to die. Especially if running around on your own.

Necrons are a bit harder. They all look like skeletons with rayguns.

[Cheesegear]

For Blood Angels, as an example, the more gold, skulls and/or wings you had, the faster you had to die. Especially if running around on your own.

Very flawed system.

1. A lot of people dislike gold colour schemes. It's tacky, and has vast potential to also look very terrible. So many people have tried to paint up some Minotaurs since IA10, and a whole bunch of them have given up.
2. A lot of people also dislike the Sanguinary Wings, as they tend to 'bulk up' the model which makes them harder to line up together, and have a terrible tendency to snap off in transit.

Lesson of the story; Gold looks silly and is hard to do properly over large areas and extra gubbins that are fiddly and fragile that have no real effect on gameplay are rarely added on to a model.

[The_Final_Stand]

I've found that a good general rule of thumb is "Shoot the bling ones", in that if a unit as a whole has a lot of shinies, they have to die. If a single model has more stuff than anyone else, then they specifically have to die.

Substitute "shinies" for "spikes" or "skulls" as necessary.

[Winterwind]

So a while back I was talking with a friend of mine, who plays Necrons, and he said something to the effect of "And with the new Ally rules, I could sometime borrow the Librarian of your Grey Knights and cover the lack of Psionics that my Necrons have!". Um. Librarian. Yeaaah, riiight.

In short, I've decided that my Grey Knight army lacking a Librarian is, indeed, an omission that just shouldn't be allowed to stand any further, and I finally got myself one.

But now I'm wondering how to best equip him, in particular with regards to the weapon he should have. Which is not made easier by me having been rather busy for the last few months, and therefore not having had opportunity to gather experience with the new edition, thus lacking good judgment as to what works and what doesn't these days.

So - sword, halberd, hammer or stave, which would be the preferable option here?

[Cheesegear]

So - sword, halberd, hammer or stave, which would be the preferable option here?

During the cross-over from 5th to 6th, very little about Grey Knights has changed.

Sword; Better Invulnerable. Cheap = Good.
Halberd; I6 Force Weapons are the best. No exceptions.
Hammer; No.
Stave; Expensive, and due to Initiative = Win, probably not as good as the Halberd. Seeing as how you should never accept Challenges with your Librarian, you should be alright without this.

Brain Mines.

If you want to be extra cheap; Roll with Divination from the BRB.
If you don't like rolling random dice (understandable), you should always take Shrouding. And then you should choose between Sanctuary and Warp Rift - or take both if you like spending heaps of points.

Master Craft Swords or Halberds if you've got the points. Don't MC Staves, it's way too many points and it's not worth it.

[HalfTangible]

I have a sorting system for working out who to shoot, and in what order. It tends to vary depending on the army, though. For Blood Angels, as an example, the more gold, skulls and/or wings you had, the faster you had to die. Especially if running around on your own.

Necrons are a bit harder. They all look like skeletons with rayguns.

I've played two games against necrons. Basically, if a necron has something that isn't conducive to killing anywhere on the model (such as a crown or the flesh of it's victims, or the ability to float), blow 'em to hell. If they have scarabs, blow them to hell FIRST.

[Squark]

So, I made my first Necron list in a while. I also figured out why I've been avoiding them (Because I need a bunch of wraiths and tomb spyders). But I digress. 1250 points again.


HQ: Nemesor Zahndrekh -185pts
[Royal court is dispersed among units. Point cost of Lords and Crypteks are added to the cost of their unit]

Troops: 12 Necron Warriors -221 pts
-Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse and Gaze of Flame

7 Necron Immortals -179 pts
-Gauss Blasters
-Necron Lord with Warscythe and Mindshackle Scarabs

7 Necron Immortals -179 pts
-Gauss blasters
-Necron Lord with Warscythe and Mindshackle Sacarabs

Fast Attack: 5 Canoptek Wraiths -205 pts
-3 Whip Coils

Heavy Support: 2 Canoptek Spyders -100 pts

2 Canoptek Spyders -100 pts

Total: 1169 pts

Uses for the remaining 81 points;

-Give the Lords resurection orbs. Not sure where the remaining 20 points can go, though. Problem is I don't like spending 90 points on a 1 wound model.
-Give the Tomb Spyders gloom prisms: Instant psychic defense is always good.
-Scarabs: I have a decent number of scarabs, so that covers the innitial group and some of the extras from the Spyders. Not quite enough, though.

Note on troop choices; The Immortals are in squads of 7 because I have 14 Gauss immortals (The guy I bought the army from back pre new codex had 9 metal immortals, so when I bought a box of plastic immortals, I gave them gauss to give me two squads of 7). The warriors are in a squad of 12 because, once you factor in the cryptek, that brings their base number up to 13. You know, maybe I did the math wrong there... Not sure that actually works out for how Morale works now.

[Timberwolf]

Very flawed system.

1. A lot of people dislike gold colour schemes. It's tacky, and has vast potential to also look very terrible. So many people have tried to paint up some Minotaurs since IA10, and a whole bunch of them have given up.
2. A lot of people also dislike the Sanguinary Wings, as they tend to 'bulk up' the model which makes them harder to line up together, and have a terrible tendency to snap off in transit.


Yep, if you played me, Maugan Ra, you'd end up shooting...

I can't actually think what as even my Sanguinor is dark red. I don't do gold, I hate those wings, I never bothered putting them on Astorath or the Sanguinor or the Sanguinary Guard. Mind you, I don't really go in for stuff like that, I'm a strange Blood Angel player apparently.

[Cheesegear]

I can't actually think what as even my Sanguinor is dark red.

That's actually pretty common for Sanguinor. Since he's not an Independent Character, he can actually hide in units, without actually being in the unit. If you paint him red, the same colour as the rest of your Marines, it actually 'tricks' your opponent into shooting the unit, rather than Sanguinor - who they can always target, but because it all looks like one unit, they don't.

It doesn't work all the time. But it works often enough to be worth mentioning. 'Bling' is stupid. A surprising many people in this hobby have at least a passable knowledge of how military works, and there are several people in the hobby who paint all their models the same.

I know two people in my immediate area; One plays Alpha Legion and the other has Raptors. There is no 'bling' or brighter colours on any of their models, and it can be really difficult picking out the difference between Sternguard/Chosen and normal Marines - because that's the point. And, that kind of thing isn't just a local thing of mine.

Second; What happens if your opponent's army isn't painted?

[Squark]

I think this was more a general observation that the biggest, baddest threats in most armies tend to look the part.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Cadian pattern camo I paint my tanks in blends very well with most of the local shop's game mats. I have had people completely overlook a main battle tank before. :smallamused:

[Squark]

The Cadian pattern camo I paint my tanks in blends very well with most of the local shop's game mats. I have had people completely overlook a main battle tank before. :smallamused:

...

CREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!

Sorry, but I mean, that was just too obvious to pass up.

[Renegade Paladin]

...

CREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!

Sorry, but I mean, that was just too obvious to pass up.
I know, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Wraith]

It doesn't work all the time. But it works often enough to be worth mentioning. 'Bling' is stupid. A surprising many people in this hobby have at least a passable knowledge of how military works, and there are several people in the hobby who paint all their models the same.

*Raises a hand*

Yep, I do that. My Eldar army consists entirely of the same colour in all my units. Doesn't always work when I roll out Wraithguard next to Striking Scorpions, of course, but Guardians next to Dire Avangers, or Storm Guardians beside Harlequins? Just a sea of funny shaped hats, even regular opponents can't tell easily the difference....

My Pathfinders go one better - instead of the grey/bone Ulthwe-style pattern that everything else has, they're all just grey. Chaos Black, highlighted with Codex Grey and a few odd details (like gemstones) for fun, and nothing else.
Put them in some ruins or in amongst some trees and they almost literally disappear, to the point where I have lost some because I forgot to pick them up at the end of a game!

The only exceptions are my Seer Council - they're distinct enough that they can be a different colour to the rest of my army and make no difference, however they are all the same colour as my Farseer and Eldrad. Opponents who use targeted attacks (like Vindicare Assassins) or try to get sneaky base-to-base melee moves absolutely hate it.... :smallbiggrin:

Spirit of the game, of course, insists that I point out the difference if my opponent asks me to. You might be amazed at how many would prefer to try and guess as best they can.

[Timberwolf]

The Cadian pattern camo I paint my tanks in blends very well with most of the local shop's game mats. I have had people completely overlook a main battle tank before. :smallamused:

The worst thing ? One guy I play has those skull dice from GW and my eyes suck so badly that I can't read them, at all, I have to scrutinise his rolls. I hate doing that as he's the most honest, nice player I've ever met and those are his lucky dice. I'll take missing the odd Leman Russ over not being able to see what my opponent is rolling.

With my Sternguard though, I have 10, 5 are the old metal ones and the other 5 are converted Sanguinary guard. It makes keeping track of who's in which combat squad much easier. About the only thing I have that's blingy and thoroughly out with the scheme of the rest of the army is my Captain and Honour Guard, and they're meant to be like that because "Look at MEEEEEEE" is all part of being a Blood Angel.

[Maugan Ra]

Ah. My local gaming scene mostly has people go in for distinctive colour schemes etc on their most expensive, centrepiece units. Camoflague is the colour of cowardice, and all that.

(Though cowards are distinctly less likely to take a battle cannon round to the general face region.)

And I too have been put in the situation of people using awkward dice. There's one individual I know who favours clear plastic dice with the numbers painted on in white. A similar person uses virtually identical dice in our RP sessions as well, and has a habit of rolling everything behind his hand.

[Squark]

Color scheme wise, my Wolf Guard are easy to spot thanks to their yellow shoulder pads contrasting the red and black on their followers, and both my HQs have banners to help my opponent identify the model (The rune priest is a kitbash, so I felt additional identifying features were merited, while my Wolf Guard Battle Leader is the kind of guy who'd want all those under his command to see him.

[CN the Logos]

I know two people in my immediate area; One plays Alpha Legion and the other has Raptors. There is no 'bling' or brighter colours on any of their models, and it can be really difficult picking out the difference between Sternguard/Chosen and normal Marines - because that's the point. And, that kind of thing isn't just a local thing of mine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that sort of what Alpha Legion is supposed to do/has done in the past? Something like:

"I am Alpharius!"

"No, I am Alpharius!"

"They're both lying! I am Alpharius!"

"I'm actually Omegeon..."

Ecetera?

I went with a compromise between appropriate Egyptian tomb-style bling and practicality for my Necrons' color scheme. My rank and file warriors were painted a darkish bronze, meant to look like a metal equivalent of a mummified corpse (http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=6gW&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1440&bih=747&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=RRRr-MJoEwL-hM:&imgrefurl=http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/Aeighteen.htm&docid=HWi859QSBRtxhM&imgurl=http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/AmenhotepIIflickr.jpg&w=468&h=306&ei=wHZJUPeGLImk9AS4jYGQCA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=187&vpy=82&dur=7709&hovh=181&hovw=278&tx=165&ty=158&sig=112751134052289819053&page=2&tbnh=159&tbnw=212&start=20&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:20,i:206). The higher ranking 'crons were given metallic dark blue bodies with light silver heads and brass trim (sort of like a combination of US Navy dress blues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_080218-N-5476H-007_Cmdr._Richard_Martel,_executive_officer_of_the _guided-missile_cruiser_USS_Lake_Erie_%28CG_70%29,_inspect s_the_dress_blue_uniforms_of_Sailors_during_a_unif orm_inspection_on_the_flight_deck_prior_to_a_buria .jpg) and Skeletor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Skeletor-spoo.jpg)).

On an unrelated note, played a 1500 point Purge the Alien game tonight against some Imperial Guard infantry. And I do mean infantry; the closest thing the guy had to vehicles were two Sentinels. I was running a footslogging list too, on account of not having my Ghost Arks together yet and not having the money for Scythes at the moment, but based on what I'd read, I thought there was a law stating that IG players weren't allowed to leave their houses without at least two tanks. Not that I can criticize him for newbish mistakes, as I am also very newbish and probably made my share of them, but I heard "Imperial Guard," got out my anti-tank, and by the time we were setting up and I realized my Transdimensional Thunderbolt C'tan and three Eldritch Lances were superfluous, it was too late to rewrite my list.

Lesson learned: no matter no awesome the internet says x unit is, make sure you actually need those things. I could have ditched two of the Crypteks, made the C'tan cheaper, and used the points saved for an Annihilation Barge.

We had to call the game on turn three, as it had taken us longer than expected to get to that point (it was his eleventh game, my fifth, and we we were both having to stop to look up rules) and the shop was closing. I was, however, leading 7 to 0 at that point, having lost three Warriors and a Destroyer compared to his... piles and piles of guard corpses. He took Marbo, so I was hoping the guy would would come in from reserve and we'd have a showdown between Rambo and Cthulhu, but no dice. There was, however, one especially hilarious moment when some of his snipers had to fall back after taking heavy casualties from my Warrior Blob of Doom and did so by leaping of the top of the three story building they were on, to their deaths. Even my opponent laughed at my assessment of them as the Imperial Lemmings.

Overall, not a terribly glorious battle, but I enjoyed myself, and it gave me some ideas about what I want to do with my list in the future, so I consider it an evening well spent. :smallcool:

[The_Final_Stand]

See, as a Necron player, many of the models are different enough that its easy to tell what everything is just by looking at them. Immortals have big guns, Lychguard have scythes/shields, Deathmarks have one eye and funky guns and Lords have a staff and cape. Those are the hardest to tell apart (similar body type). Everything else looks very different from one another.

Alternatively, I'm used to them enough that the differences come naturally to me and I don't notice.

[Winterwind]

During the cross-over from 5th to 6th, very little about Grey Knights has changed.

Sword; Better Invulnerable. Cheap = Good.
Halberd; I6 Force Weapons are the best. No exceptions.
Hammer; No.
Stave; Expensive, and due to Initiative = Win, probably not as good as the Halberd. Seeing as how you should never accept Challenges with your Librarian, you should be alright without this.

Brain Mines.

If you want to be extra cheap; Roll with Divination from the BRB.
If you don't like rolling random dice (understandable), you should always take Shrouding. And then you should choose between Sanctuary and Warp Rift - or take both if you like spending heaps of points.

Master Craft Swords or Halberds if you've got the points. Don't MC Staves, it's way too many points and it's not worth it.Alright, thank you! :smallsmile:

So I1 weapons on Independent Characters are still a no-go, in spite of there now being a Look Out, Sir! save? Though I guess 4+ is indeed nothing one would like to rely on...

[Timberwolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that sort of what Alpha Legion is supposed to do/has done in the past? Something like:


On an unrelated note, played a 1500 point Purge the Alien game tonight against some Imperial Guard infantry. And I do mean infantry; the closest thing the guy had to vehicles were two Sentinels. I was running a footslogging list too, on account of not having my Ghost Arks together yet and not having the money for Scythes at the moment, but based on what I'd read, I thought there was a law stating that IG players weren't allowed to leave their houses without at least two tanks. Not that I can criticize him for newbish mistakes, as I am also very newbish and probably made my share of them, but I heard "Imperial Guard," got out my anti-tank, and by the time we were setting up and I realized my Transdimensional Thunderbolt C'tan and three Eldritch Lances were superfluous, it was too late to rewrite my list.

Lesson learned: no matter no awesome the internet says x unit is, make sure you actually need those things. I could have ditched two of the Crypteks, made the C'tan cheaper, and used the points saved for an Annihilation Barge.


Ahhh, but, if you had have rewritten your list for foot guard, it would have then been a Tailored List and that is Not Cool. In other words, it sounds to me like you bought a general purpose list, which was prepared for anti tank even if you didn't need it. It also seemed to be smashing faces quite nicely even with the less than optimal loadouts so I wouldn't worry. Necrons, because of their ability to resurrect, are a very forgiving army with enough Res Orbs about the place. Foot Guard is also one of the most powerful builds if done right because there are very few other ways to get 15 Lascannons that can twin link and enough Melta to melt the Titanic into 1500 points.

I'd say that the lesson you learned from this is a good one, but short of tailoring your list, there's no way to actually apply it. However, the small change I'd make to that is "Stuff the Internet entirely as anything other than a source of ideas. Try things out for yourself and see if you like them". For example, I asked around, tried things the Internet's way with my Blood Angels and discovered I don't really find Assault Marines, Librarian Dreadnoughts, Sanguinary Guard, Tactical Marines, Captains, Vindicators, Rhinos and Razorbacks comfortable. What I do find a comfortable fit are Sniper Scouts, Death Company, Blendernoughts, Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, Librarians, Mephiston, Lemartes, Landraiders, Land Speeders, Elites Chaplains, Sanguinary Priests, Baal Predators, Vanguard and Stormravens. Having tried it all out, my 1000 point list was born and it grew into the several cases of minis it is today as I've played bigger games and added things. I've been much happier as I've discovered things myself. My basic, go to 1000 point list is 2 years old and has made the jump from 5th Ed to 6th just fine.

[Cheesegear]

So I1 weapons on Independent Characters are still a no-go, in spite of there now being a Look Out, Sir! save? Though I guess 4+ is indeed nothing one would like to rely on...

Not really. Since you're a WHFB player I know you know about Challenges. Independent Characters are usually insta-challenged where they need a good Invulnerable or high Initiative, otherwise they die very quickly. Look Out rolls rarely come into play in Assault for ICs.

The thing with the Hammer is that you should have Hammerhand up as often as possible already, and if you really want Hammers, they should be in your squads - and Grenades work on MCs so the Hammer doesn't really do a lot.

[The_Final_Stand]

Updated FAQs, including one for the main rulebook, are out. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018&section=&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2&multiPageMode=true)

What I find relevant is that beam weapons, like the Death Ray, can't hit Flyers, or indeed FMCs either.

On the other hand, Chaos Marine players, rejoice! Winged Daemon Princes actually fly now, rather than jump.

Also, Paladins, Nobz, and Wolf Guard (also Crisis Shas'vre) are now only Characters when actually leading a unit.

Necron Lords and Crypteks in a Royal Court, on the other hand...

[Squark]

Wolf standard allows overwatch rolls to be re-rolled. SWEET.

Wolf tail talisman, Runic Weapon, and Deny the witch do not stack. :smallfrown: Although, frankly, I still think the Wolf Tail talisman should have been errata'd to +1 to Deny the witch rolls.

Logan Grimnar officially has a frost blade! Unfortunately, Space Wolves do not have night vision. Except in the fluff, apparently.

Also, marker lights can force a swooping monstrous creature to take a grounded test. ... wut

Also, Calgar with Power Maul seems to be a legitamate thing now, seeing as most other Characters have had their power weapons errata'd to the specific weapon, but Calgar hasn't.

[Zorg]

Well if you were flying around and someone shot a laser pointer in your eyes...

Blood Angels got the short end of the axe-stick, with Dante and Blades Encarmine both getting ruled as unwieldy. Meanwhile Eldar get Fuegan's axe and Executioners as special weapons (and retro Banshee exarchs axes count as executioners).


Edit: Almost time for Games Day Australia - I assume I'm alone in representing the playground again?

[deuterio12]

Ah. My local gaming scene mostly has people go in for distinctive colour schemes etc on their most expensive, centrepiece units. Camoflague is the colour of cowardice, and all that.


Which is fully suported by the fluff, as pretty much every novel spends a good amount of time describing the bling of the commanders. HHeresy series is particularly notorious at this, with whole paragraphs invested in describing golden armors filled with exotic heraldries.:smallbiggrin:

[LeSwordfish]

All-flyer lists are now auto-lose, because... well... because screw interesting?

[Mystic Muse]

Hello everybody.

Haven't posted in one of these threads before. Haven't had much reason to, since I don't really know the rules, but I recently obtained a reason.

My DM gave me a few minis to paint, and one was an old plastic space marine.

I also recently acquired a Tyranid Mawloc/Trygon on Ebay for a total of $38, and I now have a desire to paint them.

However, I don't know anything about painting plastic miniatures really. I was wondering if I could maybe get some general tips? Especially in terms of best brands to use in terms of glue and such.

[Tome]

Woo! Target Locks now exist again! Time to stick them back on my Broadsides I guess.

And Disruption Pods are awesome again too. Maybe I won't retire all of my Hammerheads just yet.

Bad part? Drones can no longer be Characters.

[Zorg]

Hi Mystic :smallsmile:

There is a stand-alone miniatures painting thread for your viewing pleasure here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197234), which will already have a variety of information available.

To quickly answer your question, for plastic models use plastic glue (also known as plastic cement). There are wide varieties available, but the only thing to really stay away from is the cheap ones you get in little toothpaste tube like tubes. Something with a brush or fine nozzle applicator is best.

For resin or metal models you'll need superglue.

In addition to glues you'll need at least a craft knife (xacto is a common brand) to cut the bits of model out and clean off any mould lines and flash.

[Squark]

All-flyer lists are now auto-lose, because... well... because screw interesting?


They were already auto-lose unless your opponent made special allowances for you, which he can still totally do. Personally, though, I don't find all-flyer lists interesting so much as stupid, at least until flakk missiles are added.

[Mystic Muse]

Hi Mystic :smallsmile: Hi Zorg.:smallsmile:




There is a stand-alone miniatures painting thread for your viewing pleasure here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197234), which will already have a variety of information available.

To quickly answer your question, for plastic models use plastic glue (also known as plastic cement). There are wide varieties available, but the only thing to really stay away from is the cheap ones you get in little toothpaste tube like tubes. Something with a brush or fine nozzle applicator is best.

For resin or metal models you'll need superglue.

In addition to glues you'll need at least a craft knife (xacto is a common brand) to cut the bits of model out and clean off any mould lines and flash.

Ah, alright, thanks for the advice and directions. The booklet says I can also use clippers, which I'll probably go with unless a craft knife is just that much better.

[Squark]

Hi Zorg.:smallsmile:




Ah, alright, thanks for the advice and directions. The booklet says I can also use clippers, which I'll probably go with unless a craft knife is just that much better.

Clippers are in most case better, they're just not required.

[Ishikar]

Updated FAQs, including one for the main rulebook, are out. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018&section=&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2&multiPageMode=true)

What I find relevant is that beam weapons, like the Death Ray, can't hit Flyers, or indeed FMCs either.

On the other hand, Chaos Marine players, rejoice! Winged Daemon Princes actually fly now, rather than jump.

Also, Paladins, Nobz, and Wolf Guard (also Crisis Shas'vre) are now only Characters when actually leading a unit.

Necron Lords and Crypteks in a Royal Court, on the other hand...

So basic impression I get with the newest FAQs:

Tau - Disruption Pod = Shrouding? You know I had joked about that happening with my friends but to actually see it actually happen makes me forgive the Acute Senses on Crisis Suits nonsense. A 3+ save on my hammerhead or a 2+ on my flat-out pirahna is lovely, it's also huge for games where the tetra is allowed giving you a cheap, survivable makerlight platform.

The character change for shas'vre suits makes sense and doesn't really affect anything as most Tau just run basic team-leads and stick their commander with one of the elite slot teams. The 1+ slots on the allies kinda sucks in my opinion but it's probably what you'd take anyways seeing as Ethereals are HORRIBLE and 6 firewarriors is cheaper than 10 kroot.

Space Marines: Clarification on stormraven in the BRB appendix and a few clearups, not too much changed really.

Chaos Space Marines: Flying demon princes and AP 2 demon weapons without unwieldy! Abbadon gets de-nerfed!

Dark Eldar: Holy crap on non-unwieldy AP 2 CC weapons. Nice for Archons/incubi for breaking up termies and the like but still not as good as torrent fire weapons.

Base Rule Book: Demon flying circus gets official word that yes it's protected on it's non-assault deep strike turns, though with markerlights grounding them potentially I have to go "huh?". Eternal warrior/FNP clarification is nice but I would have liked a FNP/Force weapon clarification as both kick off at the same time (upon an unsaved wound being inflicted). Reserve clarifications are nice but mostly common sense.

All in all I like alot of what I saw and 6th edition continues to keep me excited with what's to come. Now all I need are the rules for the Mako and Nautilus defense platform, guess we'll have to wait on the new book or maybe a white dwarf chapter approved (but NOT the white dwarf codex).

[Hawkfrost000]

ZOMGHUSKBLADESANDKLAIVESAREAP2!!!!

now i need to get me some incubi :smallbiggrin:

DM

[Maugan Ra]

Heh. I've always viewed Incubi as being unholy terrors in close combat. Having, I think, the only I5 attacks in the game that can bypass terminator armour justifies this belief.

(OK, likely not the only such individuals in the game, but for an army that lacked power fists it's a welcome errata. Even if I don't play Dark Eldar anymore.)

[Callistarius]

Nemesis daemon hammers aren't thunder hammer equivalent any more, they have Concussive, Daemonbane, Force, Specialist Weapon & Unwieldy - no armourbane.

And good work to GW on making Dante - the (theoretically) fast (I7) Hit & Running drop specialist I1 in close combat. Why not just give him a power fist instead?

Also good to see that consistency has been achieved - Glaive encarmines are counted as either swords or axes, depending on the model, but Nemesis force halberds aren't counted as axes (like it states in the rulebook that halberd count as axes) but rather are counted as Unusual Force Weapons.

[LeSwordfish]

I can put up with that inconsistency, since it would nerf them into the ground. Plus, I'm sure the GK codex refers to them as unusual.

[Cheesegear]

Nemesis daemon hammers aren't thunder hammer equivalent any more, they have Concussive, Daemonbane, Force, Specialist Weapon & Unwieldy - no armourbane.

What? That sounds exactly like a Thunder Hammer to me. Have you been playing Thunder Hammers having Armourbane? ...Holy crap.

EDIT:
Some other things I found especially annoying;

'Speeder Sammael has 2 Hull Points. Most people were playing him with 3 or 4. Sucks to be Dark Angels.
Eternal Warriors can't roll FNP if affected by a weapon that otherwise would cause ID. ...Sigh face.
If a Broodlord rolls a power he can't use (He's BS0, can't use Shooting attacks), he gets to suck it. Hard.

Paladins, Wolf Guard, Nobz and are no longer units of Characters. ...But Seer Councils and upgraded Chaos Terminators still are. (It's probably an accidental omission...But...RAW).

[Callistarius]

EDIT:Have you been playing Thunder Hammers having Armourbane? ...Holy crap.

I shall take my suitably chastened & sleep-deprived brain away for re-education. Haven't played 6th ed yet as my regular opponent (my son) has been banned for a spell for not doing school assignments. For some reason my brain thought thunder hammer = armour bane.

I stand by my point about Glaives/Mortalis & Nemesis Halberds. Modelled axes on BA minis are axes, but modelled Halberds (Axes) on GKs aren't? Having GK halberds as axes striking at I3 instead of I1 would have been ok, no? Or ruling both as unusual? But to have one as unusual, the other not seems wrong.

[Cheesegear]

I stand by my point about Glaives/Mortalis & Nemesis Halberds. Modelled axes on BA minis are axes, but modelled Halberds (Axes) on GKs aren't?

Halberds are Lances/Spears, if anything. I'd never call GK Halberds 'axes'. I wouldn't even call them Halberds. They're more similar to Glaives.

So, think of it like that instead. A NFH is a Force Lance that doesn't suck.

http://www.weapons-universe.com/Swords/Polearms.jpg

Something similar happened when the BA 'dex was released. A lot of people were saying that GW model designers don't know what a Glaive is.

Glaive Encarmine = Swords and Axes? ...Er, right.
Nemesis Halberd = Spear/Lance. Sure. Okay. You modellers are great.

[Squark]

Force Lances aren't actually a thing, so yeah, a special classification is probably the best. *checks Blood Angels Saguinary Guard models* ...

A polearm, that is not. Besides, do you want them to call a glaive encamarine a power axe or a power sword, or a Power Lance :smallyuk:?

[thereaper]

Halberds are Lances/Spears, if anything. I'd never call GK Halberds 'axes'. I wouldn't even call them Halberds. They're more similar to Glaives.

So, think of it like that instead. A NFH is a Force Lance that doesn't suck.

http://www.weapons-universe.com/Swords/Polearms.jpg

Something similar happened when the BA 'dex was released. A lot of people were saying that GW model designers don't know what a Glaive is.

Glaive Encarmine = Swords and Axes? ...Er, right.
Nemesis Halberd = Spear/Lance. Sure. Okay. You modellers are great.

In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, even soldiers can't tell the difference between halberds and glaives.

[LeSwordfish]

That'd be because of the darkness. Poor visibility, see?

[deuterio12]

In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, even soldiers can't tell the difference between halberds and glaives.

They also can't tell the diference between a chainsword and a flashlight used as a club to be honest. :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

New finecast stuff.

Is £37.50 for 5 wraithguard cheaper or a price rise? I suspect its cheaper but I got put off so never bought any wraithguard and don't know if they were really more than £7.50 each before the metal ones got discontinued.

Why are the only interesting Eldar armies of the overly expensive and too much conversion work variety?

[Wraith]

Is £37.50 for 5 wraithguard - cheaper or a price rise? I suspect its cheaper but I got put off so never bought any wraithguard and don't know if they were really more than £7.50 each before the metal ones got discontinued.

It's a VERY minor price reduction - last time I looked, metal Wraithguard were £8 each.

Even so.... that's still pretty steep to say that they're not even 'new' models - just the same old blocky poses that were first released in the early 1990's. :smallconfused:


Why are the only interesting Eldar armies of the overly expensive and too much conversion work variety?

Speaking as someone who already owns 2000 points of Wraith-army, 'interesting' is certainly a word that could be used. :smalltongue:

Having said that, I haven't used them since the advent of 6th Ed. There's a lot of potential in a wall of 10 overwatching Wraithcannon.....

[Squark]

So... My Space Wolves as they stand now.

HQ: Wolf Lord with Wolf Claw and Storm Shield
Rune Priest with Runic sword

Elites: 5 Wolf Scouts with Meltagun and 2 power swords
Wolf Guard: -Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma
-powerfist, combi-plasma
-powerfist, combi-flamer
-2 Plasma Pistols
-Arjac Rockfist

Troops: 30 Grey Hunters (2 Plasmaguns, 4 meltaguns, 2 Wolf Standards)
-Drop Pod with Storm bolter

Heavy Support: 6 Long Fangs (4 Missile Launchers, 1 Lascannon) (Going to bring the missile launchers up to 5 as soon as I can find another hunter killer missile for the conversion)

So, at this point, beyond a second group of Missile Fangs, I'm not entirely sure what direction I want to go with my army (It doesn't help that my necrons are also in need of more models, specifically tomb spyders, wraiths, and a C'tan). Any reccomendations? I've also considered a Codex Marines allied detatchment, something like

HQ: Librarian with Avenger, Null Zone
Troops: 5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher
+Telion?
Elites: Sternguard?
Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon.

[Cheesegear]

Having said that, I haven't used them since the advent of 6th Ed. There's a lot of potential in a wall of 10 overwatching Wraithcannon.....

Seeing as how a Wraith army is actually encourages you to bring along as many Farseers as possible, it works really well. But that's in part only because Farseers get the two best Disciplines in the game - Telepathy and Divination.

Also Wraithseers. Yes. This is a Wraithlord with a D-Cannon who can give Wraithguard FNP and Fleet. Sure, why not?

As far as pricing goes...In $AU, there's a significant price drop on Wraithguard. They used to be $33 apiece. They're now $102 for five. So, now I might actually think about getting some, especially since my club allows IA-A2(2E).

[Zorg]

My Games Day write up is done:

SEE Allan Merrit working retail!

READ about my arguing with Jes Goowin over haircuts!

BE AMAZED at lots of information about Forge World, including Horus Heresy, Warhammer Forge and Juan Diaz' love of butts.

All this and more on my blog. (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/games-day-australia-2012.html)

[Cheesegear]

Originally posted by Collegia Titanica
Flooded with Marines? Well, they sell. Surprisingly everyone was very, very open about this fact and didn’t try to hide it in any way shape or form.

They haven't tried to hide it for a while. As a publicly traded company, they post regular sales figures and strategies (under Investor Relations on their website). It's also why, while I don't agree with the price discrepancy in $AU, I understand why it's there.


Next book is Necrons, Minotaurs and Death Corps of Krieg.

Well that's disappointing. I was really hoping for the 1K Sons vs. Minotaurs that was rumoured earlier this year.


The HH series is designed in such a way that people can use their existing armies as much as possible.

Was there any word on how the army lists will work with regular 40K? I've read elsewhere that the HH army lists will be a standalone campaign lists that don't mesh with the standard books (i.e; Primarchs and Special Characters will be stupidly broken, and will require other Primarchs to take down. Or, alternatively, Eldar and Orks wont have a chance).


Jes loves plastic. LOVES it. If he could he’d do everything in it as for a sculptor it’s far better with almost no distortion or deformation. He foresees a future with only special characters being finecast, and generic characters all being single frame plastics like the recent Warhammer releases and the limited Dark Vengeance Chaplain.

Good to know. I've heard it mentioned several times. I'm just waiting for it to be put into action.


They want to continue putting every unit option on a frame where possible. And lots of head options.

I think this is a good idea. However, it becomes wildly impractical for stuff like Death Company and Grey Knights where you end up paying bucketloads, not for models, but for extra gubbins that you don't even use - kind of annoying.


The allies matrix is there as a guide, not a prescription.

Bulls***. That should clearly be in the rulebook. Or, rather, since it's not a 'rule' it shouldn't be in the BRB at all. It has clear game-mechanics that benefit/hinder army compositions. I am, however, hoping for new Codecies to be released with their own Allies table for a 'Codex trumps Rulebook' situation.


If they can they would like to introduce 40k Dogs of War type units to use as allies to bring in lesser races. One of the reasons they brought allies back.

Flawed reasoning. But I like the end result. Hrud for everyone!


There is a mathematical formula for points cost, based off a man (Warhammer) or a Marine (40k). This is then adjusted by feel for how the unit works within a given army or theme of the army.

. 90% of HQs are over-costed. And points are wildly unbalanced. But, given that a unit's points cost is weighed against units from it's own Codex instead of another's Codex kind of says a lot about the design process and how Grey Knights are woefully under-costed.


[I]Jes had a solo seminar, where I accosted him about his constant use of topknots on minis
[...]
I also talked to him about sculpting female minis

lol to both questions.

[Zorg]

They haven't tried to hide it for a while. As a publicly traded company, they post regular sales figures and strategies (under Investor Relations on their website). It's also why, while I don't agree with the price discrepancy in $AU, I understand why it's there.

Yes, but this was phrased differently - a very blatant "we do this because it makes us the most money", rather than tapdancing around the issue like they normally do.



Was there any word on how the army lists will work with regular 40K? I've read elsewhere that the HH army lists will be a standalone campaign lists that don't mesh with the standard books (i.e; Primarchs and Special Characters will be stupidly broken, and will require other Primarchs to take down. Or, alternatively, Eldar and Orks wont have a chance).

No, but when you hear the news, it will blow your tiny minds. That was the response to any requests for details.



Bulls***. That should clearly be in the rulebook. Or, rather, since it's not a 'rule' it shouldn't be in the BRB at all. It has clear game-mechanics that benefit/hinder army compositions. I am, however, hoping for new Codecies to be released with their own Allies table for a 'Codex trumps Rulebook' situation.

Not sure I follow :smallconfused: They're just saying that, yes, the allies matirx gives you the option of Tau / Marine team ups as best buds, but you don't have to take it or have that as canon for all chapters.




Flawed reasoning. But I like the end result. Hrud for everyone!

I'd imagine it was them at the studio saying "hey, if we bring back allies maybe we could make small lists to bring in xenos races that will never be a full army", just like the internet kept asking them to and has been asking them too since the rules came out.

Edit: And Jeremy commented that yes, you can abuse allies rules to be a min-maxing so and so, but if you do that you're missing the point of the game (to paraphrase).

[LeSwordfish]

I was under the impression that the "minor races as allies" thing was already suspected, thus Deathwatch minis rumoured and such. Here's fluff-wise hoping for kroot.

I wonder if that's the new home for the poor Sisters.

[deuterio12]

Not sure I follow :smallconfused: They're just saying that, yes, the allies matirx gives you the option of Tau / Marine team ups as best buds, but you don't have to take it or have that as canon for all chapters.


Indeed, plus this being 40K, even "best buds" will try to kill each other every other day of the week because someone woke up in a bad mood or some misunderstanding.

This is, nothing in the rules stops you from playing BA vs SW or even BA vs BA and SW vs SW.

[Cheesegear]

Yes, but this was phrased differently - a very blatant "we do this because it makes us the most money", rather than tapdancing around the issue like they normally do.

Fair enough. Although I'm pretty sure this has been the case for a while, maybe the designers haven't been 'in on it', but the shareholders certainly have been.


No, but when you hear the news, it will blow your tiny minds. That was the response to any requests for details.

That's...Insulting? I'd prefer 'no comment' or 'we can't say', than something vaguely derogatory that's supposed to get me excited but instead leaves me disappointed.


Not sure I follow :smallconfused: They're just saying that, yes, the allies matirx gives you the option of Tau / Marine team ups as best buds, but you don't have to take it or have that as canon for all chapters.

While GW tends to put competitive players at arms' distance (whilst trying to sell Stormravens to Tyranid players), the Allies Matrix is 'RAW is law', and TOs and Blackshirts are loathe to mess with it. So, while the designers may say that it's a guideline, it's actually clearly not the case.


Edit: And Jeremy commented that yes, you can abuse allies rules to be a min-maxing so and so, but if you do that you're missing the point of the game (to paraphrase).

Like I've said before; GW clearly has no idea what their customer base wants. GW is, first and foremost, a hobby company, not actually a game company. I get that. But they really should be thinking about making the switch.

[Zorg]

That's...Insulting? I'd prefer 'no comment' or 'we can't say', than something vaguely derogatory that's supposed to get me excited but instead leaves me disappointed.

He said it in a very humourous way - remember this is the guy who kept referring to Forge World as cocaine. If you want to get the exact nuance of every piece of conversation you'll just have to come down next year :smallwink:




While GW tends to put competitive players at arms' distance (whilst trying to sell Stormravens to Tyranid players), the Allies Matrix is 'RAW is law', and TOs and Blackshirts are loathe to mess with it. So, while the designers may say that it's a guideline, it's actually clearly not the case.

I really think you're misunderstanding what he was saying. He wasn't saying you can ignore it or not allow it - he was saying that if you disagree that, for instance, your marines would ally with Tau you don't have to ever ally your marines with Tau... but other people can if they want.
Why is that such a problem?




Like I've said before; GW clearly has no idea what their customer base wants. GW is, first and foremost, a hobby company, not actually a game company. I get that. But they really should be thinking about making the switch.

If you've been following their financials you'll know they've been making profits. That says to me they do know what they're doing, and that taking the risk of alienating their customer base to appeal to a vocal group who are most likely in the minority seems like a bad idea to me.

[Squark]

Model-related rules question; Since there's no Runic Armor/Artificer Armor specific bits, is it acceptable from a WYSIWYG perspective to use the same model for both over the course of several games (So, one day, I use my wolf lord with Runic armor. The next, I'm running low on points, and just make him a power armored wolf guard battle leader)? Also, do meltabombs need to be WYSIWYG?

[Tome]

Model-related rules question; Since there's no Runic Armor/Artificer Armor specific bits, is it acceptable from a WYSIWYG perspective to use the same model for both over the course of several games (So, one day, I use my wolf lord with Runic armor. The next, I'm running low on points, and just make him a power armored wolf guard battle leader)? Also, do meltabombs need to be WYSIWYG?

It'd be fine for the most part. Most folks are going to be just fine with it, but certain people might make a fuss. If somebody does take an issue with it, find someone else to play.

And Meltabombs don't really have to be modelled in most places, they don't even get noticed most of the time when you do.

[thereaper]

:mitd:

I think I finally got my head around how Justicar Thawn, his unit, and psychic powers interact. Jeez, they didn't do a good job writing that one.

And here I thought D&D rule interactions were confusing.

[Cheesegear]

My current collection of HQs.

Marneus Calgar - 265 Points
Armour of Antilochus

Cato Sicarius - 200 Points
Cassius - 125 Points
Pedro Kantor - 175 Points
Darnath Lysander - 200 Points
Kayvaan Shrike - 195 Points
He’Stan - 190 Points

Kor’Sarro - 205 Points
Moondrakkan

Honour Guard (x10) - 495 Points
x4 Power Mauls, x5 Power Axes, x4 Auxiliary Grenade Launchers, Chapter Banner
Chapter Champion; Thunder Hammer
+ Drop Pod

Captain - 150 Points
Power Maul, Power Axe, Melta Bombs
Artificer Armour

Captain - 145 Points
x2 Plasma Pistols, Artificer Armour

Captain - 165 Points
Lightning Claw, Power Fist, Jump Pack

Captain - 185 Points
Power Maul, Storm Shield, Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs
Bike

Command Squad - 190 Points
x4 Meltaguns
+ Drop Pod

Command Squad - 250 Points
x4 Plasma Guns
+ Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun

Command Squad - 405 Points
x4; Power Axes, Power Mauls, Melta Bombs, Storm Shields
Bikes

Librarian - 100 Points
Force Stave

Librarian - 140 Points
Force Stave, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield

Chaplain - 105 Points
Melta Bombs

Chaplain - 120 Points
Melta Bombs, Jump Pack

Master of the Forge - 120 Points
Conversion Beamer

Totals 2570 Points. With another 4 FO Slots to go, I'm estimating that I've got around 12-15K points worth of Marines.

[Hootman]

Speaking of HQ's, apparently my FLGS is holding a 40k Tournament of Champions event, where everyone brings in an HQ unit and you duke it out for bragging rights and possibly a prize (the latter mostly being wishful thinking on my part).

I fully expect to be the only competitor, because the shop's been all kinds of dead recently as far as 40k is concerned, but on the off-chance that I am not, I would like suggestions for what kind of HQ I ought to bring. I know we'll be starting about 12" away from one another, in case anyone brings a shooty hero. Sadly, I don't have the specifics of any of the other rules, but let's assume that it has to be a single-model HQ choice of no more than....250 points. That seems safe enough.

I currently play Black Templars, Orks, and have a Commissar Yarrick model for my handful for Steel Legionnaires. For the Not IG armies, I'm thinking Fully Tooled Up Warboss on Warbike, and either Rage-Is-Good-Now Emperor's Champion or Tons of Wargear McChaplainface.

Suggestions?

[Hootman]

Speaking of HQ's, apparently my FLGS is holding a 40k Tournament of Champions event, where everyone brings in an HQ unit and you duke it out for bragging rights and possibly a prize (the latter mostly being wishful thinking on my part).

I fully expect to be the only competitor, because the shop's been all kinds of dead recently as far as 40k is concerned, but on the off-chance that I am not, I would like suggestions for what kind of HQ I ought to bring. I know we'll be starting about 12" away from one another, in case anyone brings a shooty hero. Sadly, I don't have the specifics of any of the other rules, but let's assume that it has to be a single-model HQ choice of no more than....250 points. That seems safe enough.

I currently play Black Templars, Orks, and have a Commissar Yarrick model for my handful for Steel Legionnaires. For the Not IG armies, I'm thinking Fully Tooled Up Warboss on Warbike, and either Rage-Is-Good-Now Emperor's Champion or Tons of Wargear McChaplainface.

Suggestions?

[Squark]

I'd need more information; Are retinues (Command Squads, Royal Courts, etc.) allowed? Fenrisian wolves (Which are retinues that aren't retinues because you can still join units)? Unique Characters?

[Hootman]

I'd need more information; Are retinues (Command Squads, Royal Courts, etc.) allowed? Fenrisian wolves (Which are retinues that aren't retinues because you can still join units)? Unique Characters?

:smallconfused:


...[L]et's assume that it has to be a single-model HQ choice of no more than....250 points.
{...}
I currently play Black Templars, Orks, and have a Commissar Yarrick model...

So, in order of your questions: No; I don't play Space Wolves; Sure go for it.

[Squark]

>.> Sorry, I saw Commisar Yarrick, and was thinking of Company Command Squads, forgetting Lord Commissars and Yarrick are independent characters who don't have retinues. Pardon my confusion. Also, I wasn't totally sure if you were just listing armies you played and HQs you had without regard to their legality.

General stuff: Eternal Warrior is going to be critical for avoiding stuff like Mephiston and other force weapon wielders. And, naturally, Instant death (in the form of S10, Force Weapons, and special character rules) is also going to be very good. Another important question; Can someone take a Tervigon? Because that might just break everything right there (If memory serves, even with upgrades you can still get one for under 250 pts). What about Other Monstrous Creatures?

So, in general, you're going to want a high strength, low AP weapon, preferably one that strikes above I1. Invul Saves and eternal warrior are preferable.

[Voidhawk]

So, in general, you're going to want a high strength, low AP weapon, preferably one that strikes above I1. Invul Saves and eternal warrior are preferable.

That sounds like a Necron Overlord with Warscythe to me. Giving him all the goodies is still under 250 points (if I remember correctly), and he comes with the most overpowered piece of gear for 1v1 fights: Mindshackle Scarabs. A 50% chance of victory, before the fight even begins.

[Hootman]

The TO already commnted about being worried about Nids, but honestly, I'm not really afraid of Tervigons--they're crap in close combat, and I fight Nids all the time. Even with a dozen Gants on the field, as long as I get the charge I have full confidence in my men and boyz. All my Marines and Orks are Tyannic Veterans. :smallamused:

Necrons I am legitimately worried about, though. Mineshackles are BS, and if the Store Owner cracks open his dusty old Crons, he might be able to take the win just with them. Aside from fleeing out of range, are there any obvious weaknesses I can exploit? MSS are based on Init tests, right?

[Voidhawk]

Necrons I am legitimately worried about, though. Mineshackles are BS, and if the Store Owner cracks open his dusty old Crons, he might be able to take the win just with them. Aside from fleeing out of range, are there any obvious weaknesses I can exploit? MSS are based on Init tests, right?

Nope. Mindshackles are a Leadership test on 3d6, and math-hammer says the chance of failure of a Ld 10 model is 50%. Pretty much you're screwed, as it's exactly this kind of combat that they're designed for. Or rather, they're designed to make you avoid this kind of combat at all costs.

My advice? Run backwards and shoot him. That, or have a high enough toughness and invulnerable save that you can survive beating yourself in the head for a round, while taking warscythe hits as well.

[Cheesegear]

I know we'll be starting about 12" away from one another, in case anyone brings a shooty hero.

Should be 13 or 14" away IMO. Basically 12" means whoever goes first should win. 13-14" away means you have roll averages on your Charge dice which is slightly more fair. But, then if the person going first fails, then the person going second automatically gets his Charge because he should only be like, 1" away.

A shooty hero can just immediately move backwards and shoot you to poop, an Assault character will never catch up. Jetbike Autarchs and Tau are the obvious examples.

Arena of Death is only 'fair' when both players start in base-to-base, and both characters count as Charging for all intents and purposes, and if you want to bring a Shooty character...Don't.

But, for the rules as we know them;
Lysander, Abaddon, Skulltaker-on-Chariot, Swarmlord and [Draigo/Mephiston] (depending on meta-game).

But I assume that's obvious or that special characters aren't allowed. So, otherwise I'd go with a Warboss-on-Bike.

T6 means he can't be insta-killed by a bastard Chapter Master who drops an Orbital on the first turn (hilarious in Arena of Death, BTW). And then take a Kombi-Skorcha for Overwatch stupidity if your opponent gets first turn (also hilarious in AoD, nobody remembers about Overwatch and Template weapons because most HQs don't have them), then just take all the upgrades.


ION;

Q: Can a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or Independent Character join a
squad of Wolf Scouts and benefit from the Outflank special rule
because at least one model has the ability? (p27)
A: Yes.

Q: Does a character with Saga of the Hunter pass on his Outflank and
Stealth special rules to a unit he joins before deployment? (p64)
A: Yes.

Both of these are amazingly broken. Time to bust out the Battle Brothers for hilarious shenanigans and why Space Wolves are T1 while Blood Angels are T2.

In More Other News;
Horus Heresy is announced. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S0ZaG9xEIA&feature=plcp) With Book 1 being Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and the Death Guard. Particular interest 1:51. The Legion Crusade Army List is not Codex: Space Marines and will have a standalone Allies matrix.

At 2:29 is stats for Saul Tarvitz, who has Preferred Enemy (Emperor's Children) which I thought was neat. I like him.

Terminators look amazing.
Jetbike looks phallus-y, and not like a Jetbike at all.

[Hootman]

Alright, rules update!

1. Point limit, 250. Lysander in (yay), Mephy in (boo), Swarmlord and Draigo out (sweet).
2. Model limit, 1.
3. Starting Distance, the AVERAGE of the greatest length of the two competators' shooting weapons (minimum 12-14" seems reasonable).


Holy SMOKES that makes some ranged characters completely broken, which is kind of hilarious considering the implied purpose of the event. Even if you're fighting someone who has no ranged weapons (Zero inches), you'd still only cut the range on any long range gun worth having in half---Conversion Beamer and/or Shokk Attack Guns, anyone?

I'm definitely leaning heavily toward choosing my Warboss if I have to only pick one, but I'll probably bring a handful of guys just in case I end up basically playing against myself. This is my current lineup:

1. Warboss Biker, astride his mighty Looted Juggernaut, with all the fixin's.
2. Black Templar Chaplain, Maul/Axe and Holy Orb in Artificer Armor with Terminator Honors.
3. Emperor's Champion, accepting any challenge no matter the odds.
4. Captain Han Salio, probably having taken up the reins as a Chapter Master JUST so I can drop an Orbital on someone.
5. Inquisitor Max, with the Spear of Destiny (a glowy green fleur-de-lis sandwich-pick) and ideally all of the cool grenades GK's are hoarding.
6. Master of the Forge, Bike and Conversion Beamer
7. Lysander, the baddest dude ever.
8. Old Zogwort, if I tear myself away from League of Legends long enough to actually try to build the custom model I keep promising myself. SQUIGGIN' ER'RYONE, ALL DAY ER'RY DAY.

[Squark]

Errr... You might want to ask the organizer what he's calling half of infinite as far as Living Lightning goes. :smallbiggrin:

[Hootman]

Errr... You might want to ask the organizer what he's calling half of infinite as far as Living Lightning goes. :smallbiggrin:

That, sadly, isn't a weapon. Neither is the Orbital Strike, by my estimation.

Also, odd as it may seem, NO ONE plays any flavor of Imperial Space Marines in my local meta. At all. Ever. We've got Sisters, Tau, Deldar, Chaos, Nids, Necrons, and my Orks. Occasionally I bust out the Marines, but it's become less and less frequent since Orks are so much fun and I don't get to play all that often.

[Ishikar]

Also, odd as it may seem, NO ONE plays any flavor of Imperial Space Marines in my local meta. At all. Ever. We've got Sisters, Tau, Deldar, Chaos, Nids, Necrons, and my Orks. Occasionally I bust out the Marines, but it's become less and less frequent since Orks are so much fun and I don't get to play all that often.

That really strikes me as an unusual occurance with the mass popularity of Space Marines in the game for their versatility. I know my Meta has a fair blend with 3 or 4 Codex Marines (one of which is my secondary salamanders army), 2 Space Wolves and two Blood Angels. We had two Grey Knights players until one guy started coming by and cheesing wins at all the tournaments with Red Vehicles with odd templar bits and the ridiculous inquisitor/assasin bullet to kill that would kill 13 terminators on the charge with average dice out of a stormraven moving flat out for a first turn face smashing. Even with that tactic being completely invalidated in the new edition everybody in the store still has an aversion to that particular codex. ESPECIALLY with the fluff changes and basic face smashing of the old Codex: Witch Hunters.

As for the HQ vs. HQ grudgematch, I'd agree that Tau could hold a HUGE advantage in that engagement with even a cheap loadout. My standard HQ is 100 points and with a 36" range on his missiles guarantees an 18" start which means with 6+2d6 movement I can pretty much keep out of assault all day and make you shoot me down (which a suit should win in a 1v1 scenario).

Heck, go with a Shas'O instead of a Shas'el and add in vectored retro-thrusters, a hard-wired drone controller and 2 shield drones and you've got a 170 point HQ with hit and run, BS 5, 6 wounds with 2 passes for Instant Death attacks (assuming good spread and no lucky orbitals) and who's not absolutely terrible in CC, still not terrific but not terrible.

[bluntpencil]

That really strikes me as an unusual occurance with the mass popularity of Space Marines in the game for their versatility. I know my Meta has a fair blend with 3 or 4 Codex Marines (one of which is my secondary salamanders army), 2 Space Wolves and two Blood Angels. We had two Grey Knights players until one guy started coming by and cheesing wins at all the tournaments with Red Vehicles with odd templar bits and the ridiculous inquisitor/assasin bullet to kill that would kill 13 terminators on the charge with average dice out of a stormraven moving flat out for a first turn face smashing. Even with that tactic being completely invalidated in the new edition everybody in the store still has an aversion to that particular codex. ESPECIALLY with the fluff changes and basic face smashing of the old Codex: Witch Hunters.

As for the HQ vs. HQ grudgematch, I'd agree that Tau could hold a HUGE advantage in that engagement with even a cheap loadout. My standard HQ is 100 points and with a 36" range on his missiles guarantees an 18" start which means with 6+2d6 movement I can pretty much keep out of assault all day and make you shoot me down (which a suit should win in a 1v1 scenario).

Heck, go with a Shas'O instead of a Shas'el and add in vectored retro-thrusters, a hard-wired drone controller and 2 shield drones and you've got a 170 point HQ with hit and run, BS 5, 6 wounds with 2 passes for Instant Death attacks (assuming good spread and no lucky orbitals) and who's not absolutely terrible in CC, still not terrific but not terrible.

Bjorn the Fell Handed would have a good advantage if he took the lascannon option. He could maintain distance for some time, and never miss (BS 6 and twin-linked). If he walked backwards as he shot, he could take out any infantry HQ.

Edit: Bjorn costs too much. :(

I don't think it would be possible to beat the Master of the Forge on a bike with Conversion Beamer though, except maybe using some sort of teleporting psyker.

[Squark]

Well, a Tachyon Arrow is a weapon, and that also has infinite range. And taking all the good upgrades puts you at only 205 points for an Overlord, leaving you with a choice of Tachyon Arrow or Tesseract Labyrinth, plus a Phylactery (Which, in such a format, is actually a pretty solid choice).


General question for those more learned than me; What would you say is the minimum number of models you should have in a 2000 point army? I'm trying to build a loganwing terminator list (Mainly to prove it's bad), and I'm trying to determine if Njal is a better choice than a 6th drop pod of terminators (keep in mind I am having to spend literally all my points on those 5-6 drop pods and their payload)

[Cheesegear]

General question for those more learned than me; What would you say is the minimum number of models you should have in a 2000 point army?

That's a complicated question.

[2000/500] + 1 = 5. You should have 5 Scoring units. That's about the only thing I can tell you. 'Model count' is highly subjective. You can drop it down to 4 maybe, if you're filling your FA slots and HS slots for those two missions.

[Zorg]

Get some Chaos in ya:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152167&d=1347969685


http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2812&d=1347977520


http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2811&d=1347977404


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vcO1bBvEcYg/UFh6llUQlcI/AAAAAAAAK8k/o5757Oy2C4Y/s400/Warpsmith.JPG


http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2816&d=1347988604


http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2815&d=1347988535

[Squark]

Is... that a heretekmarine?


... I'm sorry. That was horrible.

[Renegade Paladin]

Thousand point tournament on Saturday. 1000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Devil Dog - 135
-Multi-melta

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons
This is thirty points under. Options for filling that include converting one of the squads of meltavets into a grenade launcher squad (I've experimented with it and it's surprisingly effective) and replacing one of the Chimeras with a Valkyrie. (The point of the tournament is an introduction to 6th for the people who don't turn up for casual play for whatever reason, so a flyer would be good.) Also, I may replace the Devil Dog with multimelta with a Hellhound with smoke launchers, which is the same price, just to get some cover busting in the list (though most of my opponents will probably be Marines, so perhaps a Bane Wolf instead). Thoughts?

[Cheesegear]

So, here's something quick for everyone;

Something important when considering a new army, especially younger players and those who find paying for toy soldiers a needless expense. It's often helpful to consider Points-per-box, or, more helpfully, points-per-currency. The options below are listed for $AU - and that's known to be abnormally high, but the ratios should still be comparative. The HQs for most armies are single-models, and they're all around the same price, so we'll discount those. The choices below are approximate values for Troops choices. Note, however that the prices do not indicate extra money that you'll need to buy the extra bits (i.e; Tactical Squads boxes do not come with Multi-Meltas, Plasma- or Las- Cannons, you'll need those from other boxes).

Cheapest armies to most expensive, based on Troops choices (which will make up the majority of your army and what you end up spending the most money on).

Chaos Daemons, Tau, Dark Eldar, Space Marines*, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines*, Grey Knights, Necrons, Eldar*, Blood Angels, Tyranids², Orks*, Imperial Guard

* Indicates that a transport option has been included.
² Tervigon and Termagants, while 2 Troop choices, have been used.

While this isn't hard and fast. And totally dependent on you taking the same units that I did (upgrades are approximate, so discounted among all armies), it's fairly accurate. If you didn't buy Transports and went all Infantry, the *'d armies should still only move one or two places to the left. Or one or two places to the right if you add Transports.

[Hootman]

Orks*

Out of curiosity, which transport did you include for the Boyz? Trukks are horrendous now with the nerf to Fast transports, and the nerf to KFF Cover means we can't protect our Battlewagons as well as we used to. Front AV 14 is only good if you can avoid exposing the Side AV 12 (borderline impossible unless your foe is very static), and Open-Topped is even more of a death sentence than it used to be despite being the only way to have the boyz be slightly protected and also get stuck in quick.

I suppose it's possible you included Warbikes for Nobs as "transports", but you probably would have specified that one. Is there something I'm just missing when it comes to Ork Vehicles?

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity, which transport did you include for the Boyz?

A Trukk. Like I said, if you take out the Trukk, and just take 20 Boyz, you end up being cheaper.


I suppose it's possible you included Warbikes for Nobs as "transports", but you probably would have specified that one.

If you go with Biker Nobz as Troops, you end up being cheaper than Tau. However, significant drawbacks include that you can only have one of them. Or, even two if you like having no other units in your army. However, a pair of Vindicators absolutely makes Nob Bikers cry because Orks have trouble dealing with AV13 anyway, and two S10 markers should destroy the unit's effectiveness.


Is there something I'm just missing when it comes to Ork Vehicles?

Probably not. But Orks are one of the worse off armies in the game, only becoming useful when they are the Allied Detachment with IG, Necrons or Tau (i.e; The shooty armies). But, since Allies only come into effect at about the 1500 mark, it's not entirely helpful for people looking to start a new army on the quick, cheap.

[Squark]

Thousand point tournament on Saturday. 1000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Devil Dog - 135
-Multi-melta

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons
This is thirty points under. Options for filling that include converting one of the squads of meltavets into a grenade launcher squad (I've experimented with it and it's surprisingly effective) and replacing one of the Chimeras with a Valkyrie. (The point of the tournament is an introduction to 6th for the people who don't turn up for casual play for whatever reason, so a flyer would be good.) Also, I may replace the Devil Dog with multimelta with a Hellhound with smoke launchers, which is the same price, just to get some cover busting in the list (though most of my opponents will probably be Marines, so perhaps a Bane Wolf instead). Thoughts?

I feel like your command squad is a bit too pricy, personally. Banewolf or Devil Dog would probably be my choice for the fast attack slot, although the Valkyrie is another option.

[Maugan Ra]

I am not remotely surprised to see Guard topping the list as most expensive, in a currency per point way. I know I've spent a ridiculous amount on mine over the years.

Right now, I'm thinking of ways to adjust the modeling on my Leman Russ tanks to get them back to being standard Russes, or Demolishers. The other variants can be fun, but really, the basic two are just flat out more useful in a wider variety of situations. Especially now that they've removed the rule for half-strength hits on vehicles if the template is off-centre. Any advice on how to do it without making the tanks look hideously mauled?

(Will probably keep the Executioner, though. Even with Gets Hot, that much plasma is just too hilariously rude to discard outright)

[Erloas]

A much more useful list would have been the unit, cost, and points for each army. The information would have been available to make the list in the first place and that would be a lot better.

Also in most cases any game over about 500-750 points is going to have several different troop choices.

As for if troops even make up the majority of your army... probably in model count but not likely in point cost or model cost. Even though I run a lot of troop choices I generally have more points in non-troops on the field, they just happen to be from several different slots, and being eldar are mostly metals and cost more then the plastic troops. As for eldar specifically, I also don't see the transport as being necessary, probably not even recommended the majority of the time, part of the reason being that their transports are so high of points that its probably 50% of the points for a troop choice and most troops don't make good use of them anyway. And a lot of people run jetbikes and rangers, neither of which can use the transport and obviously aren't what CG picked even though you'll probably see more of either unit then Dire Avengers (most likely what he picked) in most peoples' lists.

[Cheesegear]

Also in most cases any game over about 500-750 points is going to have several different troop choices.

You shouldn't. Nearly all Codecies have only one good Troop option, which you should immediately get three of. Your fourth and/or fifth Troop choice might be different, but it usually wont.


probably in model count but not likely in point cost or model cost.

Highly, highly doubtful. x10 Tactical Marines and a Rhino is 220+ points. Multiply by 3, at least, and you're up to almost 700 points. If I take a Vindicator and 2 Predators, I barely break 400. 3 Dreadnoughts is 375 Points. Between both Heavy and Elites, I've got nearly 800. Add in a fourth Troops slot because it's 1500, and we start surpassing all other slots. Very rarely should you spend more - in currency or in points - on non-Troops.

Eldar is also notoriously Troop-poor, and highly dependent on expensive - in currency - Elites. If you want to take that into account, Eldar get less and less cost efficient. Or is that what you want?

Between Codex Marines and Blood Angels, the ratio gap (for Troops) is nearly 0.1 in all cases.


part of the reason being that their transports are so high of points that its probably 50% of the points for a troop choice and most troops don't make good use of them anyway.

You've hit the nail on the head as to why Eldar are bad except for as Allies. Mech is necessary, but Wave Serpents are so terrible. If you seriously want to drop the Wave Serpents, then go two places to the left. I've already taken that into account.


Also, The official Angron model. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Angron-wep.html)

[thereaper]

Are laserbacks any good so far in this edition?

I'm thinking about getting one, but I don't feel like doing any conversions, which limits me to the heavy bolter setup or the lascannon setup. The heavy bolter setup is cheaper (even if you throw on a storm bolter), but that 48" range on the lascannon looks really tempting...

[Tome]

Are laserbacks any good so far in this edition?

I'm thinking about getting one, but I don't feel like doing any conversions, which limits me to the heavy bolter setup or the lascannon setup. The heavy bolter setup is cheaper (even if you throw on a storm bolter), but that 48" range on the lascannon looks really tempting...

Heavy Bolters seem kind of terrible to me. It's just more of the sort of shooting your troops have as standard, only now you can't move and shoot.

Then again, I play Tau. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Are laserbacks any good so far in this edition?

As in the Twin-Linked Lascannon? Well, it's not terrible. It's not good, though. The Twin-Linked Assault Cannon is much better. The Heavy Bolter is practically worthless - unless you're running Grey Knights and can make them S6 for pretty much nothing.

[thereaper]

What's so good about an S6 heavy bolter?

[Drasius]

Also, The official Angron model. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Angron-wep.html)

He doesn't look large enough or angry enough.

[Borgh]

What's so good about an S6 heavy bolter?

it wounds T4 on 2's and can glance AV12.
Those two happen to be pretty much the most common values in game.

also, Chaos for the chaos gods! (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k) I'm not terribly impressed although the forgefiend is pretty neat.

[Renegade Paladin]

What's so good about an S6 heavy bolter?
It's S6. Your question really answers itself.

[Erloas]

You shouldn't. Nearly all Codecies have only one good Troop option, which you should immediately get three of. Your fourth and/or fifth Troop choice might be different, but it usually wont.
I think this is again one of those situations where "the internet" (and your local group) aren't actually representative of what people are actually doing.

I know with my eldar I have 3 different troop choices in almost every game and even at 1500 points I have about 600-700 points in troops. Which is close to half my armor, but it isn't actually representative of what the total army cost is going to be.
Also troops tend to be cheaper because many people get them as part of a battleforce which makes them cheaper. And most of your elites/heavies/fast attack slots are more expensive then troops in terms of currency, so even if 50% of your army is troops the actual cost to build the army is just as much dependent on non-troops as troops. If you're going based on just 'Mech heavy lists that also skews things a lot.

And yes, many armies do seem to only have 2 real troop choice, but whether or not you see scouts (half the troop choices for 1/2 of the armies in the game) really comes down to the player and I wouldn't say one is much more common then both. And if mech is king, and you have to be mechanized, then why do only 4 of your 13 options have a transport?
Even taking internet lists I don't see most armies being highly mechanized, for some armies, sure, but not for all of them.

The only way I could see eldar as being that high on the list is if you insist dire avengers need a wave serpent (and my experience is they don't) or you're going with jetbikes. I also don't see how Space Wolves are after Space Marines when their troop choice is the same cost for the same number of models but the SM unit has a $50 transport attached and the wolves don't. Necrons could go either way depending if you think warriors or immortals are the "have to have this unit and only this unit" choice. I also question your choice of tyranids as well, not only are genestealers pretty common, but also the trevigon isn't a huge amount more expensive then a transport and in terms of cost per points the trevigon probably comes out better then most transports... he runs around 200 points, so even though it costs a lot more then a rhino its $/points value is actually much higher because it is about 4x as many points.
Some of it might be weird $ conversion, but I just don't see how you came up with the list the way you did. As you said a tactical squad and rhino is 220 about points, for $74.5 is 2.95 points/$, a trevigon and termagaunts is about 250 points (estimating based on internet lists as I don't have the codex) for $86.75 or 2.88 points/$, which means for every $100 you spend you are getting a whole 7 more points for the space marines. Or for a 1000 points in troops you are at $339 for SM or $347 for Tyranids. And thats going from the lower end of the list to the higher end of the list.
And eldar again... dire avengers and wave serpent is around 270-300 points depending on upgrades, even at the 270, the cost is $81.75, which is 3.30 points/$, which is significantly higher then SM (depending how you want to call significant, it is 5x the difference between the tyranid and SM difference at very least).

[Cheesegear]

What's so good about an S6 heavy bolter?

An S6 Heavy Bolter is 5 points.
An Assault cannon in 35 points, sacrifices range for Rending. Which is pointless in Grey Knights because Psycannons.

...5 Points...


I think this is again one of those situations where "the internet" (and your local group) aren't actually representative of what people are actually doing.

That's not even close to the point. The point is to get an effective army, cheap. This has nothing to do with what people are doing currently. It has nothing to do with 'fluff' armies. You want an army, cheap, fast? See my earlier post.

I don't know what you mean by 'my local group'. My primary meta-game is GW. Several places on the 'net would say that a GW Store is one of the weakest metas there is, full of 'hobbyists' and 'noobs', and not 'gamers'. And I fully agree. That's how I know this is important;

1. New players often don't have money.
2. New players need to win some games, early on. Most of my games take place in a GW Store, and I see what goes on and what causes people to quit. Most people are okay with losing. Most people are not okay with losing consistently.

To 1. It is catastrophically easy to spend money on the hobby. I see it every week.
To 2. GW makes money hand-over-fist by it's player base making bad decisions. You bought a $60 unit that doesn't work? Fantastic. Now you need to replace it with a different $60 unit.


I know with my eldar I have 3 different troop choices in almost every game and even at 1500 points I have about 600-700 points in troops.

And that's fine. The list isn't really for you, is it? If you've got your army already bought and paid for, you're not going to need to need it. You're not a new player. You know what you're doing. You know how not to make bad choices when buying things.


And most of your elites/heavies/fast attack slots are more expensive then troops in terms of currency, so even if 50% of your army is troops the actual cost to build the army is just as much dependent on non-troops as troops.

...Maybe for Eldar because of all the Finecast.

Tactical Squad + Rhino = 235 Points for $117
Hammernators = 200 Points for $74

Contrast to
Rangers (x10) = 190 Points for $110 (this is your example)
Wraithguard = 175 Points for $102

Yes. People should be using Wraithguard.

Look, I don't know why you're so worked up about it. I put literally about 10 minutes into it with a calculator and price checking on the internet. Pretty much all of them have margins of about .1.

Spending $500 to get a Marine army, and equivalent-points Eldar army for $600 sounds about exactly right.

Essentially, my calculations worked this out;
Daemons (foot), Tau (foot) and Dark Eldar (hybrid) are the cheapest armies to make, wheras
Tyranids (foot), Orks (hybrid) and Imperial Guard (hybrid) are the most expensive armies.

Everything else in between is kind of even - including Eldar.

Eldar are not bad. Cost-effeciency means that;
1. Models need to be cheap.
2. Units in the codex need to be expensive.

Eldar are the wrong way around. Their models are expensive (Dire Avengers and Tactical Squads cost the same), but their units are cheap (TS is 170 base, DAs are 132 base); Ergo, Marines are placed to the left.


Yes. How much your army costs you is directly proportional to what you actually want in your army. Sure. But, it's handy to have a guideline, because if you don't hear "Which army is the cheapest and/or best bang for my buck?" about four times a week, your playerbase is skewed.

[Erloas]

And that's fine. The list isn't really for you, is it? If you've got your army already bought and paid for, you're not going to need to need it. You're not a new player. You know what you're doing. You know how not to make bad choices when buying things.
I'm not getting worked up. I'm just saying as a guide I could see a lot of problems with it at just a glance. So I tried to work through how you came up with the list and couldn't get it to work.

And if you are specifically making a list for "which army is cheapest to get a decent 1000pnt list" then things like Battleforces and at least a couple elites really come into play.

And if you were looking at Wraithguard as your "must have for a cheap effective eldar army" then I have to question everything you may have done with the list. I'm not sure about what you are thinking my example is... because I run dire avengers and jetbikes the most with guardians being there much of the time and 5 rangers rarely making it into my lists.
If you are just saying Dire Avengers are less points then a tactical squad so its shorter on the list and then go out of your way to specify transport needs then you need to factor in the point cost of the transport.

With just the example of tyranids, SM, and Eldar, I showed that eldar are significantly cheaper (for a troop choice with a transport as you implied) then SM, and that tyranids are only slightly more expensive then SM. Given Eldar wouldn't be cheaper once you factor in the elites, but you specifically weren't doing that.

Even taking into account some of the elites for Eldar its not that much different. A normally equipped unit of Striking Scorpion (don't need a transport) is just about 200 points for $82.50, which is cheaper points per dollar then SM tactical squad by a decent amount and not that much worse then terminators.

And I'm mostly using Eldar as an example because that is the only army I can mostly remember everything without the book, because all of my books are at the shop. But in general it seems like SM tend to be a more expensive army to field because they are vehicle heavy most of the time, even just drop pods add a lot of cost for very few points so it brings down your points/$ quite a lot.

[Squark]

All right, instead of bickering, let's try to actually construct some good starting armies, here.

Codex Marines: Battleforce+Chaplain with Jump pack. Comes to 144.25 USD
Space Wolves: Battleforce+Rune Priest+Meltaguns. Comes to 139.25 USD
Blood Angels: Battleforce+Reclusiarch with Jump Pack. Comes to 129.25 USD (Reclusiarch chosen over Librarian because there is no model for a Librarian with a Jump pack, and newbies don't need to be troubled with looking for the extra jump pack) (May or may not require more guns, I've never looked at the sprues for death company to see if they need meltaguns)
Imperial Guard: Going off a reccomendation I once heard from Renagade Paladin, 2 Battleforces. $240.00 USD
Eldar: Dire Avengers+Rangers+Farseer. The troops come to 70.25 USD, plus whatever the farseer comes to (I have no idea which of the farseer models one should use) Cheaper than marines, but the marines get a lot more points out of their purchase, and their battleforces don't skimp on points.
Chaos Marines: Err... Wait a few months while we figure this one out in the wake of the new codex
Dark Eldar: Battleforce+Haemonculus. Comes to 129.25 USD
Chaos Demons: Newbies should be steered away from demons. I have no clue what a good starting army would be, if you can't steer them away, though.
Sisters of Battle: Still not in plastic. Avoid
Grey Knights: Could I get some help on this one? Looks like it'd end up pricy, because you're either taking terminators, or buying 2 boxes of Power Armored Grey Knights per troop choice.
Orks: I don't play against orks much. No idea.
Necrons: Battleforce+Overlord (Alternatively, if they don't mind some kitbashing, Get a box of Triarch Praetorians and make your own Overlord, and a royal court for them)- 134.25 USD
Tau: Fire Warriors Box+Crisis suit+Commander upgrade. Comes to $74.25. Use your savings to buy more crisis suits. Or allies. (Well, both, but you get my point)
Tyranids: Err.. I have no idea what is good in nids anymore.

Also, GW has the Chaos Marines stuff up for advance order, including... Hard bound codex (:smallyuk:), A New flier, Upgrade packs to turn Chaos Marines into a variety of more specialized versions, and a variety of other stuff.

[Cheesegear]

Okay. Let's do this for real.

Librarian - 100 Points / $27
Farseer; Runes of Warding, Guide - 90 Points / $22

Dreadnought; Assault Cannon, Missile Launcher - 125 Points / $74
x2 Fire Dragons (x5) + Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Missile Launcher - 400 Points / $274

x3 Tactical Squad (x10); Meltagun, Missile Launcher + Rhino - 630 Points / $351

Guardian Jetbikes (x6); x2 Shuriken Cannons - 152 Points / $142
Dire Avengers (x10) Exarch; Power Weapon (Maul) and Shimmershield, Bladestorm, Defend - 177 Points / $62
Guardians (x10); Scatter Laster - 95 Points / $55

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 Points / $50
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 Points / $50

Vindicator; Siege Shield - 125 Points / $74
x2 Predator; Heavy Bolters - 170 Points / $148

x2 Fire Prism - 230 Points / $148
War Walkers (x2); x2 Scatter Lasers - 180 Points / $100

Marines; 1330 Points / $774 - 1.7
Eldar; 1324 Points / $803 - 1.6

Look! A .1 Difference. Just like I said. You can give the Farseer a Singing Spear for WYSIWYG purposes to make the six points. The issue with the Troops is that they're really, really vulnerable.

Troops alone;
630 / 351 = 1.8
424 / 259 = 1.6

Wow. Would you look at that? And I didn't even engineer that. It just turned out that way based on the Troops choices that Erloas gave to me. Which totally matches the numbers I already had.


because I run dire avengers and jetbikes the most with guardians being there much of the time

Let's put it this way;
You want an army cheap? Daemons, Tau or Dark Eldar
The most expensive? Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard
Everything else is basically even. But, they're slightly not.

[HalfTangible]

IG, Tyranids and Orks are horde armies - they're GONNA be expensive dollars-wise :smalltongue:

[Squark]

Are Tau really that cheap? Just going off what I remember, 3 Crisis suits are generally cheaper than 5 terminators, and 3 Crisis suits is about 50% more expensive than a box of terminators, at least in USD (I may have said that wrong). And 1 Broadside is 40 USD. Also, Tau really want allies, which kind of erases the cheap factor there.

Sure, Fire Warriors are inexpensive (2 troop choices for 37.25 USD is about as cheap as it gets, and unlike marines, 6 is in fact the right number for Fire Warriors, as I understand at least). But they also die in droves, and there's not really anything you can do about that other than supplement them with Allies, and make sure your opponent has bigger things to worry about

[Renegade Paladin]

Speaking of S6 heavy bolters, I got my teeth kicked in by a Coteaz list doing what I do for cheaper than I can do it and therefore fitting in six tanks and three psyflemen at 1000. The tournament had poor turnout of only three players for some reason, so we wound up just doing a round robin and calling it a day; I lost hard to Coteaz and tied Ghazghkull Thraka and his Boyz. The guy playing the Orks is well known as the luckiest bastard any of us have ever met, and it was on full display; I shot enough plasma and melta at Ghazghkull and his meganobz to take out an entire FO chart's worth of Terminators over the course of the game, and wound up sticking one wound on him - with a snap shot from a multilaser on the last turn. It was just a nonstop string of 6s on his invulnerable save, to the point of it being downright silly.

A question arose, though: Since vehicles no longer contest (barring scenario specials) what happens if a unit of Troops is in an assault with a walker right on top of an objective at the end of the game? It wound up being immaterial because the Deff Dread finally killed the last Guardsman on turn 6, but it came very, very close to happening.