[PF] Actually Killing the Tarrasque

[mootoall]

Would a Witch's Forced Ressurection hex be a way to actually, permanently get rid of the PF Tarrasque, since its abilities seem to be tied to its physical form?

[Blisstake]

No, because for that to change its physical form, it needs to kill it, which isn't possible due to its invincibility.

[Waker]

Well, the wording would seem to indicate that it is possible. The Tarrasque isn't explicity immune to being killed, it's just the staying dead that he resists. After swapping to a new body, he would lose all Ex abilities, most prominent among them is his Regeneration ability.

[mootoall]

Well, the wording would seem to indicate that it is possible. The Tarrasque isn't explicity immune to being killed, it's just the staying dead that he resists. After swapping to a new body, he would lose all Ex abilities, most prominent among them is his Regeneration ability.

That's what I figured. Since it's called out that it can be temporarily killed by death effects, I see no reason why Forced Resurrection wouldn't work on it. It gets turned into a little bunny, and then you let that bunny live out its natural life, killing it permanently.

[Keneth]

Actually it gets reincarnated into a magical beast, likely a different Spawn of Rovagug. But even so, the original body still rises from the dead after 3 rounds and what happens then is up to the GM. I'd make it a mindless beast running on nothing but base instinct.

[mootoall]

Actually it gets reincarnated into a magical beast, likely a different Spawn of Rovagug. But even so, the original body still rises from the dead after 3 rounds and what happens then is up to the GM. I'd make it a mindless beast running on nothing but base instinct.

Actually, since it has no soul, the body would, if it were to resurrect, just sit there, empty, an endless source of meat.

[Roderick_BR]

That's what I figured. Since it's called out that it can be temporarily killed by death effects, I see no reason why Forced Resurrection wouldn't work on it. It gets turned into a little bunny, and then you let that bunny live out its natural life, killing it permanently.

And that's how the rabbit from Monty Python's Holy Grail came to being.

Also reminds me of Oob (DBZ).

[grarrrg]

Actually it gets reincarnated into a magical beast, likely a different Spawn of Rovagug.

What he said.
Reincarnate:
"For non-humanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created."


Just noticed this... most of the Witch's Grand Hexes have the clause "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day"
Others can only be used once per day.
But Dire Prophecy: (according to the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch) anyway...)
"Whether or not the target’s save against the hex is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex for 1 day. This is a curse effect."

So who picks which day? :smallbiggrin:

[AzazelSephiroth]

Another factor is that the Hex specifically states that the target is subjected to the Reincarnate Spell... that means SR applies, and no rules say that the creatures SR disapears when it dies (as far as I know)... so 36 SR could be tough for a witch to beat... also the statment "No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration" implies to me that it would fail to stop it from merely reviving itself again 3 rounds later... perhaps transfering its soul back and killing the newly reincarnated form... but that is my speculation.

:note I think the the Tarrasque is awesome and derseves to be invincible :smallbiggrin:

[Keneth]

Actually, since it has no soul, the body would, if it were to resurrect, just sit there, empty, an endless source of meat.
Says where, exactly? That's just wishful thinking on your part. There's no rules for what happens if a body is raised from the dead while the soul is somewhere else, especially not for a godspawn. :smallamused:

[mootoall]

Says where, exactly? That's just wishful thinking on your part. There's no rules for what happens if a body is raised from the dead while the soul is somewhere else, especially not for a godspawn. :smallamused:

Actually, if a body is raised from the dead while the soul is someplace else, it becomes ... a zombie. That's pretty much what necromancy is. I forget how an uncontrolled, mindless undead functions in PF.

[Chained Birds]

Says where, exactly? That's just wishful thinking on your part. There's no rules for what happens if a body is raised from the dead while the soul is somewhere else, especially not for a godspawn. :smallamused:

I am reminded of Full Metal Alchemist for some reason. And considering that Alchemist is an annual class in the PF Setting... Hmm. :smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

[FishtailMite0]

What creatures would be on the list of potential reincarnations for the Tarrasque? It has such a large CR I don't think any creature would qualify (except another Tarrasque).

Anyway getting back on topic I think that if you successfully reincarnate it in a new form and then kill it in that form the beast should be gone for good (no regeneration). I don't know what would become of the Tarrasque's original corpse though.

[Keneth]

Actually, if a body is raised from the dead while the soul is someplace else, it becomes ... a zombie. That's pretty much what necromancy is. I forget how an uncontrolled, mindless undead functions in PF.
Close, but not entirely true. Necromancy is the animation of dead matter, while a tarrasque's body would be alive after rising from the dead. The thought actually did cross my mind, although I'd probably use a different template (maybe a custom one). Not that an undead tarrasque would be any less of a menace. :smallbiggrin:


What creatures would be on the list of potential reincarnations for the Tarrasque? It has such a large CR I don't think any creature would qualify (except another Tarrasque).
All Spawn of Rovagug are about as insanely strong as a tarrasque (supposedly since there's no stats), or maybe a variant Tane creature (most are magical beasts iirc).


Anyway getting back on topic I think that if you successfully reincarnate it in a new form and then kill it in that form the beast should be gone for good (no regeneration). I don't know what would become of the Tarrasque's original corpse though.
That actually poses a question, assuming the tarrasque doesn't regenerate if it's reincarnated into a different body (or if it becomes dormant), wouldn't it do so after its soul is freed from whatever shell you trapped it in?

[mootoall]

Well the thing is, (Ex) abilities, like the Tarrasque's regeneration, are tied directly to the creature's physical form. Which is why I think that, without its soul, the Tarrasque's body would come back to life, but with nothing inhabiting the body. Perfect target for a Magic Jar, methinks.

[Keneth]

Besides, what would be the point of killing tarrasque in pathfinder anyway? If the trend suggests anything, it's that after one is the defeated, a tougher Spawn (or several) usually appears. Sealing them away is the way to go here, and presents a ton of awesome plot hooks.

[mootoall]

Besides, what would be the point of killing tarrasque in pathfinder anyway? If the trend suggests anything, it's that after one is the defeated, a tougher Spawn (or several) usually appears. Sealing them away is the way to go here, and presents a ton of awesome plot hooks.

Oh, I just wanted to see if the designers were silly enough to have a loophole to killing it permanently in a base class.

[Ravenica]

ah just find a way to gate it to the positive energy plane, it won't stay dead, but it will keep dying :smallwink: (make sure you land it in an area with strong positive alignment)

[Starbuck_II]

What he said.
Reincarnate:
"For non-humanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created."


It would be a table of magical beasts not other Spawn.

[Acanous]

I'd rule that Big T counted as "Unconsious" so long as he was reincarnated.
Of course, his reincarnation would attack you, and when it died, he'd get back up.

[mootoall]

Of course, his reincarnation would attack you, and when it died, he'd get back up.

Since the Tarrasque's regeneration is Ex, there is no reason its soul would return to its body after its new body's death.

[FishtailMite0]

While it may not have anything to do with your method of killing the Tarrasque but another method (that is also usable by a witch) of 'killing' it has popped into my head.

The Tarrasque has an intelligence of 3. If the intelligence rating of any creature reaches 0 it is comatose. If we can attach a cursed item to the Tarrasque's corpse that reduces it's Int by 3 or more it will be in a permanent coma.

That's what I call a sleeping giant. :biggrin:

One big problem that arises however is that how are we going to fit our -3 sweatpants on a creature that considers XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL
clothing to be a tight fit.

However I found a way to bypass this. Our witch has two cursed -2 Ioun stones at the ready and casts the spell 'Beguiling Gift' which forces the Tarrasque to equip one if it fails a will save (it's weakest save). After three combat rounds that Giant is out for the count and is no longer making your world it's Playground.

This spell is only available on the bard and witch spell list and the witch can turn it into a hex that's usable 3 times a day with the 'Spell Hex' Feat (which increases the save DC of the spell by a massive amount).

And that's how a witch curbstomped the stongest creature in Pathfinder with a ...drum-roll... 1st level spell. The only problem I can see is that the witch has to be adjacent to the Tarrasque for at least 3 rounds which isn't a good idea for anyone, especially not a class with a d6 hit die.

This circumvents regeneration because the Tarrasque is technically not dead just in a never ending coma. This is another method where through perfectly legitimate rules a witch (or bard, or anyone with ranks in use magical device) can permanently defeat the Tarrasque.

I'm sorry this post is so long, has nothing to do with the Forced Reincarnation Hex and has very bad humour but it does give you what you want.

Oh, I just wanted to see if the designers were silly enough to have a loophole to killing it permanently in a base class.----mootoall

PS: I am new to the forums and can someone send me a private Message to tell me how to quote properly please
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Edit

I forgot to mention Permanent coma sounds like an awesome form of banishment that makes the Tarrasque seem a lot like Cthulhu and you can do it for 16000gp provided cursed ioun stones exist.

They probably do: the SRD article on cursed items states that objects that do the exact opposite of what they're meant to are examples of cursed items http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items.

Don't tell me I did'nt do my research. :amused:

[mootoall]

*snip*

I'm pretty sure stat penalties can never lower a stat below 1, but I might be wrong.

Edit: Nope, I was right. From the SRD:



Ability Score Penalties

Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

[FishtailMite0]

Darn. Ignore my edit and the new smiley that comes with it. :smallredface:

[mootoall]

No problem. Also, bonuses and penalties with the same type and/or from the same source don't stack, so that's another issue.

[FishtailMite0]

Wait, two seperate Ioun stones count as the same source?

Also; Beguiling gift is still an awesome first level spell when used right. A basic example is poisoning a guard. A more complicated one is ruining a noble's political career by giving him viagra before his dance with the under-aged princess at the royal ball.

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Edit

We might want to start talking about Forced Reincarnation again before a Mod gets involved.

[ryu]

Not a spell or ability though. We've no proof that that paragraph wasn't just referring to spells and abilities by RAW.:smallamused: Did it probably mean that it did for all penalties? Yeah probably. Does it? I dunno.

[mootoall]

Wait, two seperate Ioun stones count as the same source?

Also; Beguiling gift is still an awesome first level spell when used right. A basic example is poisoning a guard. A more complicated one is ruining a noble's political career by giving him viagra before his dance with the under-aged princess at the royal ball.

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Edit

We might want to start talking about Forced Reincarnation again before a Mod gets involved.
Ioun stones give enhancement bonuses, therefore their penalties would be enhancement. Two enhancement penalties to the same stat don't stack.

Not a spell or ability though. We've no proof that that paragraph wasn't just referring to spells and abilities by RAW.:smallamused: Did it probably mean that it did for all penalties? Yeah probably. Does it? I dunno.
" In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1." The RAW is clear.

[Starbuck_II]

Ioun stones give enhancement bonuses, therefore their penalties would be enhancement. Two enhancement penalties to the same stat don't stack.

" In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1." The RAW is clear.

Pretty sure bonuses don't stack, but penaties aren't limited.

[mootoall]

Pretty sure bonuses don't stack, but penaties aren't limited.

If this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152835) is at all accurate, then penalties probably do not stack. It's irrelevant for this case though, as penalties cannot reduce an ability score below 1.

[Mithril Leaf]

Pretty sure bonuses don't stack, but penaties aren't limited.

Incidently, since you always take the best of any ability score bonuses of a given type, wouldn't a +2 enhancement bonus item cancel out all negative ones if they don't stack.

[Keneth]

It would be a table of magical beasts not other Spawn.
Other Spawn are mostly magical beasts of comparable magnitude.

[mootoall]

Other Spawn are mostly magical beasts of comparable magnitude.

I thought Spawn were also unique creatures, and Reincarnate couldn't turn you into a unique creature.

[Keneth]

At that power level, there's pretty much nothing but unique creatures. That's why Rovagug would likely just create another, possibly stronger Spawn for the Tarrasque to reincarnate into.

[Starbuck_II]

Other Spawn are mostly magical beasts of comparable magnitude.

You don't need to be comparable power. That isn't point of spell.
It can make you a Kobold if a human, not comparable to other races.

Remember you lose Racial HD.

[mootoall]

At that power level, there's pretty much nothing but unique creatures. That's why Rovagug would likely just create another, possibly stronger Spawn for the Tarrasque to reincarnate into.

Yeah, but why would it be reincarnated into anything near its own power level? That's not in the wording of the spell.

[RFLS]

The Tarrasque has an intelligence of 3. If the intelligence rating of any creature reaches 0 it is comatose. If we can attach a cursed item to the Tarrasque's corpse that reduces it's Int by 3 or more it will be in a permanent coma.

According to this (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html), the tarrasque is immune to ability damage.

[Ravens_cry]

If someone were to Mind Switch with a Terrasque, I'd start making them take will saves to avoid taking on its mind-set.
If I was an Evil DM, I wouldn't even allow the will saves.

[FishtailMite0]

According to this, the tarrasque is immune to ability damage.---RFLS

Wait, that also says:

If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains

Food for thought.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html
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Edit

Where does it say it's immune to ability damage?:smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

According to this, the tarrasque is immune to ability damage.---RFLS

Wait that also says:

If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains

Food for thought.:smallsmile:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html
It also explicitly says "the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered." Taken together, I would say that means that if you kept beating on it, it will stay dead, but stop and the creature rises as stated.
Sounds like a great idea for some order of warriors stabbing it around the clock in shifts.
Sounds like a great plot hook.

[FishtailMite0]

You could have multiple traps hitting it at once (More than one in case one of them breaks down).

Edit:We could also toss it in a pool of lava.

[Ravens_cry]

You could have multiple traps hitting it at once (More than one in case one of them breaks down).
True, but an eternal order dedicated to keeping the beast of Armageddon from rising once more just sounds a hell of a lot cooler.
Edit: And just who will be doing the tossing?

[mootoall]

According to this (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html), the tarrasque is immune to ability damage.

There is a difference between ability damage, ability penalties and ability drain. Technically, Ability Drain would put the Tarrasque into the coma we're talking about, but I was looking for a way to kill it.


Wait, that also says:

If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains

Food for thought.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html


Hence the question of what would happen if the soul were already to have reincarnated into a different body. I hypothesize that it would mean the Tarrasque would either stay dead, or the body would come alive again as an empty shell.

[FishtailMite0]

A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.---http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/reincarnate

Cue Bad Guys.

Also
The Tarrasque has a near legendary status as an invincible scion of destruction. If you want your GM to approve of it's destruction your method must adhere to the rules in every way and have nothing that's up for debate.Even then your GM may make an arbitration against it. I'm not saying that your idea isn't a good one but most GM's don't like Boss Fights ending in one round.

Unless your GM is an absolute sadist. If so he'll agree with what your doing and make you fight a stronger resurrected form or maybe even two Tarrasque's at once


http://geekcentricity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/FlyingTarrasque2.jpg

Edit: And just who will be doing the tossing?-Ravens_Cry

Three words: Mass Enlarge Person / Many Raging Barbarians (or both)

[mootoall]

A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.---http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/reincarnate

Cue Bad Guys.

Also
The Tarrasque has a near legendary status as an invincible scion of destruction. If you want your GM to approve of it's destruction your method must adhere to the rules in every way and have nothing that's up for debate.Even then your GM may make an arbitration against it. I'm not saying that your idea isn't a good one but most GM's don't like Boss Fights ending in one round.

Unless your GM is an absolute sadist. If so he'll agree with what your doing and make you fight a stronger resurrected form or maybe even two Tarrasque's at once


http://geekcentricity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/FlyingTarrasque2.jpg

Note: This is not something being done for a campaign. It's simply a rules question. And I have not yet seen a legitimate, RAW reason for it to fail.

[FishtailMite0]

I did not say there was a reason why it would fail. I was just saying that you might have a hard time making a GM agree (which is now irrelevant).

[mootoall]

I did not say there was a reason why it would fail. I was just saying that you might have a hard time making a GM agree (which is now irrelevant).

Well, you did say "If you want your GM to approve of it's destruction your method must adhere to the rules in every way and have nothing that's up for debate." I've not seen a point that does not adhere to the rules.

[Ravens_cry]

Edit: And just who will be doing the tossing?-Ravens_Cry

Three words: Mass Enlarge Person / Many Raging Barbarians (or both)
By RAW, can you make combined lifts like that?