Thoughts on Kobold Dragonfire Adpet

[Invader]

I'm going to be playing a Dragonfire Adpet in an upcoming campaign and I'm looking for some input.

We're starting at 1st level and I'm trying to decide if I want to play a DW Kobold with the benefits that go a long with that or just go with human and get the extra feat.

Right now the plan is to play pretty much a straight DFA unless there are any good PRC's that work well it (I haven't really been able to find one). I'm pretty sure my DM is going to allow me to use metabreath feats with my breath weapon but I'm not aware of any really good way to make a DFA significantly more powerful.

Any thoughts on what's more beneficial?

[Invader]

I should also say that it would be a desert or jungle kobold without the con penalty and we're not allowed to have any +LA races or templates.

[Highwarlord]

Look into Entangling Exhalation

http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/entangling-exhalation--900/

DFAs are quite strong at all levels, so I wouldn't worry too much about optimization. Go for the Kobold if you think it will be more fun.

[Invader]

Look into Entangling Exhalation

http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/entangling-exhalation--900/

DFAs are quite strong at all levels, so I wouldn't worry too much about optimization. Go for the Kobold if you think it will be more fun.

I've seen that feat and it would be one of the first I pick up but I was under the impression that DFA's were estimated to be tier 4ish material and I'll be playing with a duskblade, cleric, and a wizard and I hate being on the bottom rung lol.

[Eiko]

Despite redundancy being dragonborn heart aspect for the breath weapon can be really beneficial.

This is because you have two breath weapons, a cooldown one and an infinite one. You can then blow a ton of metabreath feats on say, the cooldown one and then regular breath away while you wait. Or space them out between them so you can still breath every round, but gain benefits for doing so.

Added benefits come from the fact the increased Con increases the reflex save DC on the breath weapon itself.

[Invader]

Despite redundancy being dragonborn heart aspect for the breath weapon can be really beneficial.

This is because you have two breath weapons, a cooldown one and an infinite one. You can then blow a ton of metabreath feats on say, the cooldown one and then regular breath away while you wait. Or space them out between them so you can still breath every round, but gain benefits for doing so.

Added benefits come from the fact the increased Con increases the reflex save DC on the breath weapon itself.

Hmm, I actually didn't think of it that way. I was going to take the wings aspect more for flavor and the fact that I already had a breath weapon but I didn't think about using metabreath feats on both to cut down on the time between uses.

This works much much better as I can get flight other ways.

[Invader]

I'm pretty sure my DM is going to allow me to play a dragon born desert kobold so I loose the dex bonus but end up with the con bonus. The str and wis penalties don't really effect me that much especially if I cheese the venerable stats.

Any suggestions on the 1st level spell I should use for the SLA from draconic passage or whatever its called. I know all the usual choices from the PHB spell list but I figure there's something better out there.

[Eiko]

As a heads up, you loose a lot of the Kobold stuff by becoming dragonborn.

All you keep of the original race is your size, speed, special movement modes, ability modifiers and Powerful build (ask your GM if he will let you keep your slight build. They're very similar abilities.)

Edit- Not sure why your getting the draconic rite of passage but a nice 1st level spell would be Wings of Swift flying from races of the dragon. Lasts hours/level only applies to temporary flight speeds (like you'll have from level 6 onwards), boosts your flightspeed by 40ft since you're dragon blooded.

[planswalker]

addressing your concerns of power:

DFA's are a solid tier 3. You should find no problem fitting in with the group unless the tier 1's decide to break the game.

however, keep in mind that the tiers are NOT absolute guides on character power: they're guides on character versatility and capability at fulfilling roles. Tiers that are close to each other can and do have examples where a lower tier character has more raw power than a higher-tier character. The exception to this is the clear break between tier 3 and tier 2.

[Invader]

As a heads up, you loose a lot of the Kobold stuff by becoming dragonborn.

All you keep of the original race is your size, speed, special movement modes, ability modifiers and Powerful build (ask your GM if he will let you keep your slight build. They're very similar abilities.)

Edit- Not sure why your getting the draconic rite of passage but a nice 1st level spell would be Wings of Swift flying from races of the dragon. Lasts hours/level only applies to temporary flight speeds (like you'll have from level 6 onwards), boosts your flightspeed by 40ft since you're dragon blooded.

I was taking dragonborn for the second breath weapon (originally wing) and the con bonus, I figured that was a pretty good trade off for what I was loosing.

Isn't draconic rite of passage basically just a free SLA? Why woukdnt I take it unless there's a prerequisite somewhere I missed?

[Darrin]

Isn't draconic rite of passage basically just a free SLA? Why woukdnt I take it unless there's a prerequisite somewhere I missed?

Draconic Rite of Passage (RotD p. 43) is usually used as a prereq for the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), which is a feat that allows a Kobold Sorcerer to gain another caster level. It's generally used to put Kobold Sorcerers somewhat on par with wizards, as far as when they get new spells and so on. Since a DFA doesn't have Sorcerer levels, there's no reason to perform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

But with regards to the not-so-Greater plain vanilla Draconic Rite of Passage, yes, you essentially trade 100 GP and 1 permanent HP for a 1st-level Sorcerer spell as a 1/day SLA. (Note: if you have the gold, buy a Skill Shard or potion of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) to make sure the Concentration check succeeds.)

Which spell, though? I think there's two schools of thought:

1) Something with a prohibitive or annoying material cost, such as identify. (However, you can get an at-will identify as a least invocation, "magic insight"... but on the other hand, you only get a limited number of invocations, so you might want to get it as a 1/day SLA instead, and hopefully you won't need it more than that.)

2) A high-utility spell that stays useful even at higher levels, such as silent image. Benign transposition, color spray, or hail of stone might also be good picks.

[only1doug]

Benign Transposition: 2 willing subjects switch places (Spell compendium)
Vigilant Slumber: Set conditions that will wake you up (Complete Mage)


are you going to take the Draconic Reservoir feat?
Draconic Reservoir (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
You can cast your Draconic Rite of Passage spell-like ability more often than normal.
Prerequisite: Kobold, must have completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, 3 HD.
Benefit: You can cast your 1st-level sorcerer spell-like ability gained from Draconic Rite of Passage 3/day.
(last entry on the web enhancement page)

[Invader]

Benign Transposition: 2 willing subjects switch places (Spell compendium)
Vigilant Slumber: Set conditions that will wake you up (Complete Mage)


are you going to take the Draconic Reservoir feat?
Draconic Reservoir (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
You can cast your Draconic Rite of Passage spell-like ability more often than normal.
Prerequisite: Kobold, must have completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, 3 HD.
Benefit: You can cast your 1st-level sorcerer spell-like ability gained from Draconic Rite of Passage 3/day.
(last entry on the web enhancement page)


I wasn't planning on it unless I found a spell that really warranted burning a feat. I'm not sure yet if we're allowed to use flaws and if we're not I def won't be taking it because I'll be burning my feats on metabreath feats instead.

Benign Transposition is looking like the winner at this point.

[planswalker]

it's definitely quite the gem.

[lunar2]

if flaws are allowed, be a dragonwrought kobold with wings and a tail. kobold already gives you claws and a bite (per the web enhancement) so as a DFA you are now a fully functional midget red dragon (invocations are close enough to spells to count as your casting). not the most powerful build, but definitely gives some hilarious roleplayng opportunities.

[Invader]

if flaws are allowed, be a dragonwrought kobold with wings and a tail. kobold already gives you claws and a bite (per the web enhancement) so as a DFA you are now a fully functional midget red dragon (invocations are close enough to spells to count as your casting). not the most powerful build, but definitely gives some hilarious roleplayng opportunities.

I was going to spend a feat for the wings but I'd most likely skip the tail.

[Andorax]

Not really useful from an optimization point of view, but I can share an experience at it.

Once played a kobold DFA in a party with someone using the rules for playing a true dragon. Followed him around as his "chosen one". Was completely deluded into believing that he (the dragon) was much more powerful, despite mechanically having a more damaging breath weapon I could use more often. His whole mindset was making himself invaluable to the dragon at a young age so that decades from now, he would have a cushy favored position practically running the dragon's lair and ruling his own entire tribe of kobolds.

Combining invisibility, the coward flaw, spider climb, and an assortment of skill tricks to cling to the top of a wall and spew breath weapons at foes from the oddest of angles.

[umbergod]

Funny thing is you'd still have a tail, just not one you can attack with :P

[Invader]

Funny thing is you'd still have a tail, just not one you can attack with :P

Exactly :smallwink:

[lunar2]

true, but dragons just aren't dragons without a tail slap, imo. the wing attacks, you can do without, since they suck anyway, but that monster tail slap is just needed. that's just my opinion, though, and it only really works if you get strength and a half on the tail slap (which every DM i know would give you). either way, you look like a dragon, you breathe like a dragon, if you invest a bit in disguise and bluff you could probably convince a dragon that you're a dragon.