Scoundrely Psion help

[ahenobarbi]

My DM will run a test game to see that psionic isn't broken. So I want to make a nice character for it. I have an idea of been-everywhere, done-everything scoundrely psion. I love psionic fluff but I never really had opportunity to play one, so please help me make a decent build.

I'm not sure at what levels will we play. Most books are ok, but no Dragon and no flaws.

My idea for the build is:
Human
Rogue 1 (Martial rogue for Improved Initiative)/ Psion 19 (Shaper)

Feats:
1:
Improved initiative
Wild Talent
Boost construct
2: Overchannel
3: Talented
6: Psionic Meditation
Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble for extra initiative)
9: Psicrystal containment
11: Empower Power
12: Extend Power
15: Craft Dorje
16: Split Psionic Ray
18: Twin Power

What do you think?

EDIT: Ah stats are 15,14,13,12,11,10. I think I'll assign them
Str: 11
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

[Greyfeld85]

Or you can just play a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).

[ahenobarbi]

Or you can just play a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).

Hmm thanks. But I want the character to be more Psion than a Rogue and Psychic rogue looses a lot of manifester levels, gets a lot less PP and slower power level progression on top of that.

I want the character to be (almost)full manifester with scoundrely flavor.

[Greyfeld85]

You'll have to elaborate a bit on what you mean by "scoundrelly."

[eggs]

I was going to point out Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) as an alternative to the Rogue dip, but lookig more closely, I'm not convinced it would be better (it gets sneak attack, bonus PP and a low-level utility power; but it loses 8 skill points, UMD access and Improved Init). Still might be worth looking at.

Your high level feats look like a lot of metapsionics without a way to use a lot of metapsionics. I'd recommend working Expanded Knowledge (Hustle or Schism) in there. They're a bit abusable, but you're probably going to need to find a way to restore psionic focus more than once a round, or most of your feats will be "off" most of the time.

EDIT:
And you might want to look at the Anarchic Initiate from Complete Psionic. Even just replacing the last 4 Psion levels, it will give a point of BA, 4 HP, 8 skill points and an Overchannel buff for a skill investment you'd probably make anyway.

EDIT2:
No Able Learner? It will make Scoundrelly skills way easier for a non-Telepath to buy. I guess it's a matter of accounting for the ranks you need v. the ones you can afford, but a 1:1 exchange of [skill points:cross-class skill ranks] is very often worth that feat.

[ahenobarbi]

You'll have to elaborate a bit on what you mean by "scoundrelly."

Um... that's a hard question :smallbiggrin:

A character that would:
- Get in trouble by doing illegal/inappropriate things
- Get out of trouble with luck[aka DM fiat]/wit
- Alignment Chaotic (whatever)
- Wouldn't care about careful planing

I'll write more in the mornin'

[Greyfeld85]

Sounds like anything with a low INT score, honestly. Has about zilch to do with what class you choose.

[Crasical]

I'm a huge fan of the Carmen Sandiego trick from Kalaska's handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889), reposted here for your pleasure:



Powers: Retrieve, Remote Viewing
Method:
1. Manifest Remote Viewing on the target object (or a target within 30 feet of the object)
2. Manifest Retrieve on the target object
Minimum Level: 13

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Sounds like anything with a low INT score, honestly. Has about zilch to do with what class you choose.

Maybe Ahenobarbi means "Han Solo but Psionic" or something to that effect?

And I'm glad you like it, Crasical.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the feat Able Learner from Races of Destiny, and skip the Rogue dip. Your max ranks will still be that of a cross-class skill, but in the long run you'll end up spending far fewer skill points to have ranks in a huge list of skills.

Wild Talent is a waste of a feat. If you think you need something like that, pick Hidden Talent instead (XPH p67), and get a 1st level power you otherwise wouldn't have access to, such as Chameleon.

For a Shaper, you definitely want to use Personal Construct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) to make your favorite Astral Construct as a Swift Action. If starting at a low level, I'd recommend combining Boost Construct with Ectopic Form: Emerald Gyre. Every Emerald Gyre has Improved Grab, a Menu B ability, so Boost Construct will give even a 1st level Astral Construct an extra Menu B ability or two Menu A abilities. You can pick up Psychic Reformation later on and manifest it to replace Ectopic Form once its usefulness has run out, and even repick other feats, skill ranks, and powers, including Psychic Reformation itself.

Definitely get a psicrystal, every day manifest Share Pain on it, and remember that it has Hardness 8 so it won't even take damage from any hits on you that are less than 18 damage. Keep it out of line of sight/effect so opponents can't attack it directly or hit both of you with AoEs. You can manifest Vigor and use share powers so the psicrystal benefits from it, and with Share Pain you'll basically have a cushion of 10 HP per powerpoint before you'll even take any damage at all.

I'd even consider picking up Expanded Knowledge: Energy Missile, as it can be used to destroy multiple opponents' weapons, armor, shields, divine foci, and spell component pouches, in addition to dealing damage to them directly.

[rot42]

Needs more Linked Power unless you are ignoring Complete Psionic (that book also limits you to one Astral Construct at a time.

I would take Able Learner over losing a Manifester Level. Shapers get Use Psionic Device; if normal magic-psionics transparency is in effect, this gives you access to wands of all the tasty skill-enhancing spells. I would also think carefully about Talented; taking damage is no fun, but Vigor + Share Pain ameliorates this (even if your DM agrees with mine that shared damage is empathic and bypasses hardness) and healing is fairly cheap.

You could use Magic of Incarnum and prestige into Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a). A class feature gives you half a power level worth of Astral Construct once per day and the Midnight Augmentation feat gives the same all day. Those two plus a Torc of Power Preservation and two points of Overchannel give you a level seven construct at character level nine (with the obligatory Practiced Manifester feat to make up for lost manifester levels). Both Incarnate and Totemist have a number of skillmonkey soulmelds, and the ability to switch up your character archetype with a Swift action meshes nicely with acting as the party toolbox. Best of all, one of the soulmelds in the linked article gives you an ability off the Astral Construct menu, letting you be more Shaper than a pure Shaper.

Still needs more Linked Power. The feat is just that good.

[eggs]

If the point of the game is to show that psionics aren't broken, it might be a good idea to avoid psionics' crazy bits like augment cost-reduction, action economy breakage or anything involving Force Dream.

[whibla]

Definitely get a psicrystal, every day manifest Share Pain on it, and remember that it has Hardness 8 so it won't even take damage from any hits on you that are less than 18 damage.

This has always struck me as being exceedingly RAW dubious. Share pain takes as its target a creature (or two creatures). If a psicrystal counted as a creature it wouldn't have hardness*, as that is a feature of objects. However, it does have hardness. In addition, a psicrystal is immune to effects requiring a fortitude save unless those effects also affect objects (as part of its construct traits). Ergo, the psicrystal counts as an object, and is thus seemingly not a valid target for Share Pain.

All very debatable, I know, not helped by the definition of construct, that says one is "an animated object or artificially created creature." However, in 3.5, the authors had the sense to change construct DR's to x/Adamantine, which basically means the same thing as hardness, since an Adamantine weapon bypasses the first 20 points of an object's hardness. Unfortunately, when you rephrase it in terms of DR you run up against the fact that spells and powers are not affected by DR. Damage dealt by a spell or power (for example Share Pain) bypasses DR completely.

So, even if you can use you psicrystal as a target for Share Pain it will not benefit from its DR*.

*"Hardness: The measure of an object's ability to resist damage..."

As to the OP, one thing that strikes me as really odd is why you'd choose to take only a single level of rogue, thus missing out on arguably one of the best class features, namely evasion. I also agree with a previous poster, Wild Talent is, for you, a waste of a feat. I might also suggest Persistant Power, or Chain Power, if you plan on doing any buffing. Tbh, it's a little hard to give much advice without knowing what your concept is, discipline wise.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

...

Animated Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) are creatures which retain their original hardness, right out of core. That a Psicrystal has hardness does not exclude it from being a creature, and being a creature does not exclude it from having hardness.

Share Pain is a Psychometabolism power, which is equivalent to a Transmutation spell. There is nothing excluding constructs from either of those things.

There's absolutely no room for interpretation there, a Psicrystal is a creature and is a valid target for Share Pain.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If the point of the game is to show that psionics aren't broken, it might be a good idea to avoid psionics' crazy bits like augment cost-reduction, action economy breakage or anything involving Force Dream.

With that in mind, a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (as suggested by Greyfeld85) might be a good choice. Because if you're trying to prove that a tier 2 class can't break the game, then you're trying to do the impossible (and as mighty as that might make you, it's still not going to work out). If you're trying to show that a Psion and a Wizard of similar levels of optimization are similarly powerful then you should be ok (and the Psion doesn't lose out much versatility (except due to the lack of powers printed), what with Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) and Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm), and since Experience Is A River). But depending on the assumptions of the DM in question, proving Psionics (as a system) isn't broken may not be best done with a Psion, Erudite, or Ardent.

With the Psychic Rogue's power list being so small, you might ask your DM to make certain additions (since WotC basically put it out there and then forgot about it). If not, you may want to take Leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) (or Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm), though I'd recommend against it from a power perspective) and pick up a Psion Cohort - you can have them take crafting feats, Psychic Reformation, Psychic Chirurgery (via an item until your cohort is high enough level to manifest it), and whatever powers (levels 1-5) you want. In fact, if you can get access to a Psychic Artificer (Magic of Eberron if I remember correctly) for your cohort, you'll get earlier access to Psychic Chirurgery without having to magic-mart it.

You know, Thrallherd may actually be ok, if you wanted to have both a crafter and some sort of Chewbacca analogue. It would give you fairly crappy skills, no advancement for class features (beyond manifesting), and two lost manifester levels, but Leadership (and anything like Leadership) is incredibly powerful. That's why I'd probably take it as the feat and just use it as a free crafting pool and to get access to a wider array of powers.

Edit: Also, you may want to ask your DM to give you wider access to Rogue Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities) as, again, WotC just published the Psychic Rogue and forgot it.

[rot42]

If the point of the game is to show that psionics aren't broken, it might be a good idea to avoid psionics' crazy bits like augment cost-reduction, action economy breakage or anything involving Force Dream.

Oops, naughty naughty encryption algorithm for reading the OP and then forgetting the whole thrust of the post. Thank you for pointing that out.

If the name of the game is to demonstrate that 3.5 psionics is not 2e psionics, make sure to point out how very *very* limited the power point pools are, even for a full manifester. Mock up a table comparing the Psion's power points to the Wizard's "converted power points" by assigning 1 pp for a first level spell, 3 for a second, etc. The Wizard gets quite a bit more. A Psion can win out by being able to manifest more of their top level powers in an encounter than a Wizard can cast their top level spells, but that will run you dry after about one encounter.

I have gotten good mileage out of Saeomon's handbook here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5343). Your stat assignment looks fine, and it looks like you plan to keep your squishy d4 out of melee.

[Psyren]

The best ways to make a psion sneaky are Shadowmind and Soul Manifester. For the former, try to get the Adaptation approved, because Cloud Mind sucks too much to base your build around (and there are better powers to use for sneaky purposes, like Compression and Chameleon.)



Definitely get a psicrystal, every day manifest Share Pain on it, and remember that it has Hardness 8 so it won't even take damage from any hits on you that are less than 18 damage.

Though RAW doesn't actually prevent this, I would personally treat Share Pain identically to Empathic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransfer.htm), in terms of its "the damage transferred bypasses all reductions due to being empathic in nature" clause. (Note that they are both psychometabolisms that transfer damage.)

[Draz74]

Feats:
1:
Improved initiative
Wild Talent
Boost construct
Wild Talent is pretty weak after Level 3 or so. It's a lot better if you can use Hidden Talent instead. Same thing, but also adds a Level 1 power Known. I recommend Mindlink ... highly useful utility for the whole party. (Dimension Hop is probably stronger, but will be less popular with the group.)


2: Overchannel
3: Talented
6: Psionic Meditation
Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble for extra initiative)
9: Psicrystal containment
11: Empower Power
12: Extend Power
15: Craft Dorje
16: Split Psionic Ray
18: Twin Power
Hmmm, none of these are terrible, and you'll have a few levels of play to figure out what you really need here ... but I've never really been very impressed with Empower Power, Craft Dorje, Split Psionic Ray, or Twin Power. Instead, you might want to look up Linked Power in CPsi, and get a few Expanded Knowledges.



EDIT: Ah stats are 15,14,13,12,11,10. I think I'll assign them
Str: 11
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Switch DEX and WIS. You need 13 WIS to get some important feats (mostly Psionic Meditation).

Also, if you're trying to optimize an Astral Construct user, you'll definitely want to check out the Personal Construct Shaper ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) and/or the Constructor PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b).

[ahenobarbi]

Thanks everybody - now I can improve the build a bit (Able Learner instead of Rogue dip, satisfying Wis requirement for Psionic Meditation and maybe a change of feats - if I feel it won't make character too powerful).



...if you're trying to prove that a tier 2 class can't break the game, then you're trying to do the impossible (and as mighty as that might make you, it's still not going to work out). If you're trying to show that a Psion and a Wizard of similar levels of optimization are similarly powerful then you should be ok...

We're playing to demonstrate that psionics can be played in non-broken way. There was one player who played psionic character before I joined the group and left impression that it's horribly broken and can't be played without taking everybody else fun away (the player is known to ignore/maku up rules... well remove need for psionic focus and some feats become very good).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Thanks everybody - now I can improve the build a bit (Able Learner instead of Rogue dip, satisfying Wis requirement for Psionic Meditation and maybe a change of feats - if I feel it won't make character too powerful).



We're playing to demonstrate that psionics can be played in non-broken way. There was one player who played psionic character before I joined the group and left impression that it's horribly broken and can't be played without taking everybody else fun away (the player is known to ignore/maku up rules... well remove need for psionic focus and some feats become very good).

Ah, well then, remember the cardinal rule - you cannot spend more power points than you have manifester levels (unless you have a specific class feature or feat that says otherwise) - and you should be fine.

[Stegyre]

Wild Talent is pretty weak after Level 3 or so. It's a lot better if you can use Hidden Talent instead. Same thing, but also adds a Level 1 power Known.
This needs to be stated more strongly. Wild Talent serves no purpose that is not better served by Hidden Talent (same pp plus a first-level power from any list) or even Psionic Talent (same pp, plus additional iterations grant more pp).

No one should take Wild Talent unless it is forced upon them (Soulknives without the Minds Eye ACF) or free-and-cannot-be-traded-for-something-better.

[Draz74]

This needs to be stated more strongly. Wild Talent serves no purpose that is not better served by Hidden Talent (same pp plus a first-level power from any list) or even Psionic Talent (same pp, plus additional iterations grant more pp).

No one should take Wild Talent unless it is forced upon them (Soulknives without the Minds Eye ACF) or free-and-cannot-be-traded-for-something-better.

Well, it has the advantage over Psionic Talent that it can be taken by a non-psionic character. Which was the case in the OP, where a Human Rogue 1 wanted to be psionic.

And it has the advantage over Hidden Talent that it doesn't come from a sidebar that says "ask your DM before you take this feat." Even though Hidden Talent really isn't crazy powerful.