Third level spells as fast as possible.

[Sheogoroth]

What is the fastest route of gaining the ability to cast third level spells of any type, just so long as they qualify as being of the third level?

I'm trying to build a way into the Shifter PrC from Masters of the Wild as low as possible. The class only requires an alternate form, third level spells(nonspecific,) and a pair of feats. So I was planning on using one of those Eastern campaign setting bird-form creatures.
You can use pretty much anything from 3.0 to Pathfinder to Dragon Magazine.

Thanks!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Illumian race with the feat Improved Sigil: Krau gets a free +1 Heighten.

The feat Sanctum Spell gives you a free +1 Heighten.

The feat Earth Spell gives you a free +1 Heighten as long as it's already Heightened by at least one level (a 0-level spell from a 1st-level slot counts as +1 level higher).

Any two of those will make a spell from a 1st level slot count as a 3rd level spell for all purposes.

The feat Versatile Spellcaster plus a spontaneous spellcasting class can be used to cast a 2nd level spell you know by using two 1st level spell slots. Combined with one of the above it can be counted as a 3rd level spell.

The feat Precocious Apprentice allows a first level Wizard to cast a 2nd level spell, which can then be counted as 3rd level via one of the above tricks. This one is subject to DM interpretation, per WotC's official ruling.

[Necroticplague]

Eldritch Corruption allows you to raise the level of a spell by 2 without raising the spell slot used by having an ally take 2 points of CON damage. Since you are your own ally, you can take this damage yourself.Heroes of Horror.

[Venusaur]

Elven Generalist with Domain Wizard and Versatile Spellcaster can get 9ths at level 1. Get a flaw and Alacritous Cogitation so you don't have to worry about preparing it.

[Sheogoroth]

I looked up the Generalist/Domain wizard and I'm not quire sure how that works.
Are there any classes, even ones with a limited list, that get a faster form of spell progression, allowing them to qualify for a prestige class that requires the ability to cast 3rd level spells?

[mucco]

Elven generalist grants you one extra slot of the highest level you can cast. Domain wizard grants you one slot for each spell level you can cast. With versatile, you combine two first-level spells to be able to cast a 2nd-level spell. Now that you can cast 2nds, the extra slot granted by elven generalist shifts to 2nd level; the domain wizard class feature grants you a 2nd level slot as well. Combine these two slots to be able to cast a 3rd level spell. Repeat until Shapechange.

[Necroticplague]

I looked up the Generalist/Domain wizard and I'm not quire sure how that works.


O.k., logic time:

The ability to cast a spell has two parts:you have to have an appropriate spell slot to cast from, and you have to know the spell.Domain Wizard knows all the spells in their domain, so second part down. Now for the interesting part. An elven generalist gains an extra spell per day of each level they can cast. Versatile spellcaster allows you to combine two slots to gain an extra one that's one higher. Now, once you have the slot that's one level higher, you can cast a spell of that level (since you bow have an appropriate spell slot and a spell of that level known), so you gain an extra from elven generalist, which you can then use with the other slot to move up a level (via versatile spellcaster), repeat until you hit level 9 spells.

[willpell]

The Illumian race with the feat Improved Sigil: Krau gets a free +1 Heighten.

The feat Sanctum Spell gives you a free +1 Heighten.

The feat Earth Spell gives you a free +1 Heighten as long as it's already Heightened by at least one level (a 0-level spell from a 1st-level slot counts as +1 level higher).

Any two of those will make a spell from a 1st level slot count as a 3rd level spell for all purposes.


Not sure that these work; I don't know that specific PRC but PRCs in generally usually say "Ability to cast 3rd level spells". Just being able to string together a series of tricks that will let you get off a 3rd level spell once doesn't seem like it ought to cut the mustard; you would have to have it as part of your class's Spellcasting class feature. But I'm not a rules lawyer so maybe it all does work, officially; I just have a thoroughly unofficial instinct that it shouldn't.

[planswalker]

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows

Excuse me for asking (and I know someone will take offense), but where in Versatile Spellcaster does it grant a SLOT of higher level? The way I'm reading it, you're using two lower level slots to cast a higher level SPELL. Not gain an additional spell slot.

[Golden Ladybug]

It doesn't spell out that it does, but under that reading, the feat wouldn't actually, you know, do anything :smallfrown:

If Versatile Spellcaster does grant a slot, it works like this


Sacrifice 2 [Spell Level N-1] Slots
Gain 1 [Spell Level N] Slot
Cast a Spell


This allows for the Versatile Domain Generalist trick to work, since by using VS to heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd level, you can obviously cast a second level spell; you just did! Then, since the highest level spell you can cast is 2nd level, your Elven Generalist Slot moves up to 2nd level. Now that the EG slot is there, your Domain Slot unlocks also. Rinse and Repeat until ultimate power.

But, if Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant a spell slot to cast a spell in, then it is worse than useless. The procedure becomes


Sacrifice 2 [Spell Level N-1] Slots
Gain no benefits


And that's terrible.

[planswalker]

um... no, it clearly and explicitly says that you sacrifice two lower-level spell slots to cast a higher-level spell. There is no need to invent the higher-level spell slot to achieve the effect.

but even beyond that, casting a spell would use up this spell slot you've invented. HOW are you then combining it with the new spell slot from domain wizard?

edit: to further explain my position:

the whole point of the spell is to be able to use lower-level spell slots to cast higher-level spells. It gives you the option to pay for a spell of level N by sacrificing two spell slots of N-1 instead. There is no need to invent a temporary slot of level N to satisfy the feat. Only to satisfy the cheeze.

[mucco]

You never actually cast any spell.

Versatile Spellcaster does not grant any slots. It grants you the ability to cast a X+1 level spell.

Domain wizard gives you a slot of each level you can cast.
Elven generalist gives you one extra slot of the highest level you can cast.

The two slots you're using to prove you can cast one level higher are those two. And after you've done that, one of the two moves up. Such a wizard's level 1 spells per day would look like 3/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/2 before bonus spells, I believe.

Wizards can write in their spellbooks spells they can't cast yet. They just need the WBL to buy the spells.

[planswalker]

okay, thank you for a more thorough explanation of what's going on that doesn't involve inventing new spellslots out of nowhere. I've looked up the specific pieces and I've got some issues with the proposed build.


Generalist Wizardry: A 1st-level elf wizard begins play
with one extra 1st-level spell in her spellbook. At each new
wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that
she can cast. This represents the additional elven insight and
experience with arcane magic.
The elf wizard may also prepare one additional spell of
her highest spell level each day. Unlike the specialist wizard
ability, this spell may be of any school.
This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard’s
ability to specialize in a school of magic.

I find that saying versatile spellcaster + domain wizard allows you to pull off qualifying for higher level slots requires a lot of fuzzy and willful interpretation, but the bolded bit seems to be a killer to me.

How can preparing ONE additional spell EACH DAY be used to prepare EIGHT additional spells?.

[mucco]

You don't prepare it until it's max level. I'll walk you through step-by-step.

I'm a wizard 1 with the aforementioned class features. My spells per day are 2(base)+1(domain)+1(generalist).

I note that I am able to cast a second-level spell by using Versatile Spellcaster and burning my domain and generalist slots. I'm not doing it, I'm merely noting that I can, theoretically, do it.
Since I can cast second level spells, I get a 2nd level domain slot. Since I can cast second level spells, my generalist slot has to be a 2nd level slot.
Situation: 2+1(dom)/0+1(dom)+1(gen).

I note that I am able to cast a third-level spell by using Versatile Spellcaster and burning my domain and generalist slots. I'm not doing it, I'm merely noting that I can, theoretically, do it.
Since I can cast third level spells, I get a 3rd level domain slot. Since I can cast third level spells, my generalist slot has to be a 3rd level slot.
Situation: 2+1(dom)/0+1(dom)/0+1(dom)+1(gen)

repeat until 9ths.

Now, and only now, I prepare a Wish into my generalist bonus slot. The 1s throughout the spell table are the domain slots.

Is that more clear now? It is not important that the generalist slot moves leaving holes behind, because when it does there already is the domain slot satisfying all requirements.

[planswalker]

but, the thing is, doesn't it break down with the 3rd level slot? If your generalist slot goes to 3rd level, then that means that it's not at 2nd level, meaning you can't cast a 3rd level spell, meaning that it's at second level and could be used for a 3rd level... etc, etc.

To me it sounds like a feedback loop.

[mucco]

It looks like it but it isn't.

Situation with seconds: 2+1(dom)/0+1(dom)+1(gen).

Since I can cast third level spells by burning the two slots, I get a 3rd level domain slot. What is the requisite for having the 3rd level domain slot? Being able to cast 3rd level spells. But I can alredy cast a 3rd level spell as my domain spell! The domain spell is its own requirement, and does not need Versatile Spellcaster once it's in place.

Since I can cast my domain spell, my generalist slot has to be a 3rd level slot.
Situation: 2+1(dom)/0+1(dom)/0+1(dom)+1(gen)

The domain slots are the true bricks, and the generalist slot is the "scaffold" that allows me to go higher and higher.

[planswalker]

I'm not 100% sure that really works, but I now understand the build. My houserule fix to not allow that particular build would be to say that domain wizard also replaces your ability to specialize in a school of magic, meaning you can't be both.

that said, it's far from the only way to pull off qualifying as being able to cast 3rd level spells at level one, and my personal favorites are already mentioned. The OP has several choices for how to pull this off at lvl 1.

[mucco]

Yes, it's a crazy trick. The consensus on this board is that it's RAW legal, and I agree - but yeah, it can get fuzzy.

My houserule for that build is usually to ban Domain Wizard. :smallbiggrin:

[planswalker]

I spot circular reasoning within the build which I would never allow, but I hate debating RAW because it's pointless. The words are what they are, people do what they do, and all the "rule"books in all the rpg's in all the world are only guidelines anyways.

meh, domain wizard has never impressed me enough to ban, although I just never inform my players of the option so no one ever takes it.

[Roguenewb]

Sigh. Yes, Domain Generalist can hit 9ths at 1. Other options:

Versatile+Sanctum (A Favorite of Mine): Note, I believe this needs you to actually know a second level spell.

Versatile+Sanctum+Heighten: The above, but if you have no second level spells known, you have to pay the Feat Tax.

Versatile+Heighten+Earth Spell: This was officially declared to work, as far as I know.

Precocious+Sanctum: Various Wizards employees argued throughout the run, that precocious apprentice couldn't quick qualify. But, they insisted on trying to couch it in logic instead of making it a special exception. The last semi-official logic I heard of was "It only gives a percentage chance of casting so it doesn't qualify", which of course, as smarter Playgrounders than I have pointed out, means being in a rainstorm turns off casting based PrCs, as does being threatened.

That ambiguous text from C.Arc: There's some text from Complete Arcane about warlocks qualifing for PrCs that seems to imply that the spell like ability of an X-th level spell counts as the ability to cast those spells. YMMV, and I believe CustServ and the Sage ruled against this, but FAQs aren't RAW as they say.... Find a race that grants a level 3 spell as a SLA, and go to town?

[planswalker]

are there any least warlock sla's that have an effective spell level of 3rd? another YMMV, but it works if YM is right.

[Andorax]

Elven Generalist + Domain Wizard + Versitile = ultimate power is false. A character can't cast spells if the player has a concussion from books to the head.



That ambiguous text from C.Arc: There's some text from Complete Arcane about warlocks qualifing for PrCs that seems to imply that the spell like ability of an X-th level spell counts as the ability to cast those spells. YMMV, and I believe CustServ and the Sage ruled against this, but FAQs aren't RAW as they say.... Find a race that grants a level 3 spell as a SLA, and go to town?

I would be most interested in quantifying this particular bit though, and (with research) it might open up another avenue. Dragonmarks are SLAs, so if there's a dragonmark that's a third level spell, it might also provide a means of doing this.



However, to OP, I would also STRONGLY recommend you let your DM know exactly what you're trying to do, and if he or she is ok with it. "can cast 3rd level spells" is, in some interpretitions of RAI, shorthand for "must be 5th or higher level in a casty class", and going through fifteen different contortions to get early entry just to raise your DM's blood pressure and add another line to the "things that are banned" list isn't cool.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not sure that these work; I don't know that specific PRC but PRCs in generally usually say "Ability to cast 3rd level spells". Just being able to string together a series of tricks that will let you get off a 3rd level spell once doesn't seem like it ought to cut the mustard; you would have to have it as part of your class's Spellcasting class feature. But I'm not a rules lawyer so maybe it all does work, officially; I just have a thoroughly unofficial instinct that it shouldn't.

You're mistaking it for an ability that only works once ever.

A non-specialist Wizard 5 with Int 15 can cast one 3rd level spell each day. Are you suggesting he doesn't qualify for a given prestige class that requires 3rd level spells?

As long as a character can do something more than once, even if on separate days, then cumulatively he's doing it a plural number of times, thus the plurality of a given prerequisite is completely irrelevant.

[Esgath]

Sorcerers only know one spell when they get a new spell level so they just could cast one 3rd level spell multiple times and I bet any player would jump you if he had to wait an additional level to get into a prestige class :>

[sreservoir]

any naenhoon illumian with the heighten spell feat, three uses of turn undead, some ability to cast spells, and at least two levels in any class can heighten to 3rd.

or, well, eldritch corruption trivialises spell level requirements. unfortunately, requires taint.