3.5 There any classes that are mainly INT and CHA..

[animewatcha]

Outside of TOB and Incarnum, are there any non-evil classes ( doesn't matter if caster or melee ) that rely on INT and/or CHA ? Was wondering who gain a benefit from Savage Species' horseshoe of flames' increase to INT and CHa.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Methinks something melee, as you'd need something actually capable of wearing the horseshoes. That or a sufficient UMD skill.

Could you be more specific as to what you're looking for? You've just described at least a quarter of all existing classes/PrCs.

[eggs]

Truenamer!

Also Shadowcaster, Enchanters/Beguilers, Bardic Sage, Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer, Factotum (kind of) and Warmage (when it's low enough level to care about the edge).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ordinary horses can't take class levels:

"Horseshoes of Flame: An ordinary horse wearing these horseshoes may transform up to three times per day, for up to 7 hours each time, into a creature resembling a nightmare.... When transformed, the horse gains ... +10 Intelligence, and +6 Charisma."

[Daftendirekt]

Ordinary horses can't take class levels:

"Horseshoes of Flame: An ordinary horse wearing these horseshoes may transform up to three times per day, for up to 7 hours each time, into a creature resembling a nightmare.... When transformed, the horse gains ... +10 Intelligence, and +6 Charisma."

DC 25 UMD check to emulate a race.

[Draz74]

Outside of TOB and Incarnum, are there any non-evil classes ( doesn't matter if caster or melee ) that rely on INT and/or CHA ? Was wondering who gain a benefit from Savage Species' horseshoe of flames' increase to INT and CHa.
Yeah, I think we're missing some of the intent of your question. As-is, its answers are too numerous to list, and some of them are pretty dang obvious. Like Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard.


Truenamer! Also Shadowcaster, Enchanters/Beguilers, Bardic Sage, Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer, Factotum (kind of) and Warmage (when it's low enough level to care about the edge).

If you're making a list of classes that benefit from INT and CHA, you can also add Telepaths and Thrallherds (and Telepath/Thrallherds) in the same vein as Enchanters/Beguilers.

Funnily enough, the biggest use Wizards get for CHA checks is for use with Conjuration (Calling) spells, rather than Enchantments ...


DC 25 UMD check to emulate a race.
That will take care of the "horse" part. But what's the UMD DC to emulate "ordinary-ness"? :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

DC 25 UMD check to emulate a race.

You can pretend to be a horse with your current class levels, but there's no such thing as 'emulate mundane' so there's no way you can UMD those horseshoes.

[animewatcha]

Mainly list of classes ( and/or variants thereof within books and drag mag ) that would largely benefit from this. Like a sidewinder monk. Kung fu genius monk. Duskblade ( spell DC going through the roof ). Paladin ( divine grace, turn undead ).

Maybe seperate lists like 'pure non-caster', hybrid, and 'pure caster' ?
Ex. Monk - duskblade - Beguiler.

-sidenote- Please don't let Biffo know about the half-horse outsider. Or tauric creatures. Or Centaurs. Or anything like that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

-sidenote- Please don't let Biffo know about the half-horse outsider. Or tauric creatures. Or Centaurs. Or anything like that.

None of those is an "ordinary horse" so none of them can benefit from the item in question. It very specifically only works for an "ordinary horse" so you can't ever combine any class features with its effect.

[animewatcha]

Also was 3.0 and need to adapt accordingly.

Also, can anyone specifically point me to "Horse, ordinary" ? I can't find it in the SRD.

[bigstipidfighte]

I highly recommend Anima Mage from Tome of Magic. It combines the powers of the Binder, a Cha-based utility belt, with an arcane caster(in this case probably Wizard) It's easily enter-able as a Wizard 3/Binder 1, and on top of progressing both class' abilities it also gives out free metamagic.

Have you run this by your DM though? Personally I wouldn't allow it, as I find it unlikely that this is RAI, and even the RAW case seems very weak.

[animewatcha]

My DMs go by the no more than 1/4th price of WBL per starting item thing. So character wealth would need to be atleast 121k or so. So sounds to be like the level in which 'scraping for every ability score bonus can muster.'

Also, UMD as class skill is not easy to come by for some classes.

[bigstipidfighte]

It's just a feat away for anyone, I'm not recalling the book but there's a feat that gets you any one skill added to your class list permanently. I'm sure an alert playgrounder will chime in with the source.

If that's no good for you, Human Paragon from the SRD will get it for you, and is all-around not too shabby.

Or, you know, cross class skill ranks and/or items that grant bonuses should take care of a DC25 at high levels.

[dextercorvia]

It's just a feat away for anyone, I'm not recalling the book but there's a feat that gets you any one skill added to your class list permanently. I'm sure an alert playgrounder will chime in with the source.

If that's no good for you, Human Paragon from the SRD will get it for you, and is all-around not too shabby.

Or, you know, cross class skill ranks and/or items that grant bonuses should take care of a DC25 at high levels.

That feat, Skill Knowledge, is from an alternate skill system. UMD can be had from the Apprentice:Spellcaster feat, however.

[Greyfeld85]

You can pretend to be a horse with your current class levels, but there's no such thing as 'emulate mundane' so there's no way you can UMD those horseshoes.

I really really hope you're kidding.

Because if you're not, I'm just going to have to say, "LOL really???"

[bigstipidfighte]

I really really hope you're kidding.

Because if you're not, I'm just going to have to say, "LOL really???"

I agree with Biff on this one. "Ordinary" horse is specifically called out, presumably to avoid the shoes being used on animal companions, paladin mounts and the like. A humanoid polymorphing, or hell even Mind Switching with a horse wouldn't qualify for this, why should UMD?

Even ignoring all that, I'd still go against it. An object usable only by a "royal goblin" couldn't be UMD'd without homebrew, and while I might make hombrew in some cases (say, for the previously mentioned social-class-specific object or a gender-specific item) I wouldn't make it for this. Other DMs may make a different call.

[Khedrac]

RAW they can't be used period. Anything that puts them on is no longer an ordinary horse and thus cannot use them...

[Thurbane]

As much as I would never let such a thing fly in my game (by rule 0), I'm pretty sure UMD would get you there by RAW. "Ordinary" is not a defined game term as far as I aware, and I'm pretty sure the "emulate race" aspect of UMD would let you emulate a horse.

To read it otherwise, the magic item is unusable by anyone, even "ordinary horses", since as soon as they put them on and gain +Int and +Cha, they are no longer ordinary horses themselves (and under a reading of the animal type, may even be considered a Magical Beast).

[bigstipidfighte]

So, based on that aruement, you think the word "ordinary" should be ignored, and it should be a-ok for animal companions?

Come on playground, how many of you would really take away a Dragon Disciples class abilities when they hit 10?

[Yora]

You can pretend to be a horse with your current class levels, but there's no such thing as 'emulate mundane' so there's no way you can UMD those horseshoes.
There is no such thing as an ordinary horse, so there is no creature in all the planes that can wear them.

[Thurbane]

So, based on that aruement, you think the word "ordinary" should be ignored, and it should be a-ok for animal companions?
Well, if you did allow it for Animal Companions, they would cease to qualify as ACs as soon as they put the item on. I've seen threads here where people take out an enemy Druid's AC by slamming a Headband of Intellect onto it's head! :smallbiggrin:

[Tim Proctor]

I interpret these rules to say that any creature with hooves can gain nightmare type aspects (black skin, flaming hair, etc). I would allow a War Shaper to wear these so long as he had hooves, same with a Minotaur.

Also, UMD says the below according to the SRD. You can emulate any race whether mundane, magical, whatsoever. So yes a Bard (high in Charisma and Int) can use these horseshoes so long as they have a +24 bonus to them.

Use Magic Device:
Emulate a Race
Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time.

[Answerer]

Ignoring the UMD debate, another class as yet unmentioned: Artificer. Cha for UMD (I guess I'm not entirely ignoring it), Int for Infusions and skill points.

[Feralventas]

Battle-Dancer (Dragon Magic Compendium) uses Charisma for AC and a number of different class features and skills.
Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) Uses Int for damage with finesse weapons.
If you run Monastic Training/Tashalatora psion and take the Kung-Fu Genius feat, your Monk abilities key off of Int while your psion abilities do the same.
Wilder (Expanded psionics) is charisma-based and gets Cha to Touch AC (but no higher than their normal AC)
Half the 3.5 paladin (and most of the Pathfinder paladin) key off of Charisma (Divine Grace, Lay on Hands.)
Beguiler(PHB2) is charisma dependent for spellcasting, and Int dependent for a lot of their skills.

[Answerer]

Beguiler(PHB2) is charisma dependent for spellcasting, and Int dependent for a lot of their skills.
You have that backwards: Beguilers use Intelligence for spells, but have a lot of Charisma-based skills that they want to pump.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If an item can only be used by a 'female goblin' a male character cannot use it via UMD. He may be able to emulate the goblin race, but UMD cannot be used to emulate gender.

Horseshoes of Flame very specifically can only be activated by "an ordinary horse" which per the English language would mean a commonplace horse of no special quality or interest, unexceptional and undistinguished. By RAW that means only the various Horse monster entries as-printed would qualify for that, as anything more than one of those would no longer be ordinary. Any argument that something could possibly exclude itself is absolutely silly, whether you're talking about a Survivor's base saves or the Dragon Disciple capstone or these horseshoes.

There is no UMD function to emulate mundane, as I've already said. The skill can only do exactly what's spelled out. Even if you use UMD to emulate a horse, you are not a commonplace horse and thus cannot activate the horseshoes. In this case, the game designers managed to select their words in such a way that the item can only be used for its intended purpose.

[SowZ]

It specifies ordinary as an adjective, not because something called ordinary horse exists. And specific trumps general. USUALLY you can emulate an animal for UMD purposes but this item specifies you can't. It is the whole deal with priorities in the rules when things conflict.

[Greyfeld85]

The word "ordinary" is inserted to clarify that the item can't be used on creatures that are only part horse, or have a few defining features of a horse (centaurs, etc).

Claiming that it precludes UMD because you can't emulate an "ordinary" horse is ridiculous in the extreme. There is no such listing in any rulebook anywhere that differentiates a horse from an "ordinary" horse. A horse is a horse (of course, of course...), and any argument that builds its foundation on claiming that the word "ordinary" is directed specifically at UMD, rather than the more likely chance that it's directed at templates and alternate breeds of equine, is stretching plausibility to its limit.

If they didn't want UMD to work on it, they would have just said, "The Use Magic Device skill cannot emulate a horse for the sake of using this item."

[SowZ]

The word "ordinary" is inserted to clarify that the item can't be used on creatures that are only part horse, or have a few defining features of a horse (centaurs, etc).

Claiming that it precludes UMD because you can't emulate an "ordinary" horse is ridiculous in the extreme. There is no such listing in any rulebook anywhere that differentiates a horse from an "ordinary" horse. A horse is a horse (of course, of course...), and any argument that builds its foundation on claiming that the word "ordinary" is directed specifically at UMD, rather than the more likely chance that it's directed at templates and alternate breeds of equine, is stretching plausibility to its limit.

If they didn't want UMD to work on it, they would have just said, "The Use Magic Device skill cannot emulate a horse for the sake of using this item."

It is shaky ruleswise either way. But seeing as UMD is supernaturally emulating a horse, arguing that discounts it from being an ordinary horse just as much as being, say, a celestial horse certainly has merit.

[Answerer]

I'm basically of the opinion that there is exceedingly little evidence that UMD is supposed to fail to work on anything except that which explicitly states UMD cannot be used for it. That includes the gender example. While there is not a specified DC for emulating gender, it strikes me as a situation where the problem is not that it's impossible (there is no evidence that it is), but that Wizards never bothered to give us a DC for it. I think it is, well, wrong to construe that as a positive statement that to do so is impossible.

For example, I would accept as valid TO/RAW for someone capable of making an arbitrarily-high UMD check (Pun-Pun for the trivial case) to emulate a gender. I don't know the DC for doing so, but since they can hit the DC no matter what it is, I think that would be valid by RAW.

Moreover, I think the statement "ordinary horse" refers to a category of creature, and therefore a sufficient UMD check to emulate any race that falls in that category (let's go with "Shetland pony") would work to activate the item.


Anyway, Artificer remains my preference here. Plus a Centaur Artificer sounds freaking cool.

[Ravens_cry]

There is a way of emulating a gender, but it's a bit permanent.
As for classes, bard comes to mind.

[animewatcha]

Maybe UMD got 'expanded' in new uses in later books. What does UMD say for 'nonhumanoid creatures' ?

[Thurbane]

Horseshoes of Flame very specifically can only be activated by "an ordinary horse" which per the English language would mean a commonplace horse of no special quality or interest, unexceptional and undistinguished. By RAW that means only the various Horse monster entries as-printed would qualify for that, as anything more than one of those would no longer be ordinary. Any argument that something could possibly exclude itself is absolutely silly, whether you're talking about a Survivor's base saves or the Dragon Disciple capstone or these horseshoes.
Mixing interpretations of English language and RAW (or in game terminology) is a dicey affair - by that reading, literally ANY horse with any distinguishing feature outside the accepted norm for the breed could not wear the shoes.

So is a fat horse, skinny horse, tall hose, short horse, horse of unusual markings, horse with a lasting injury, horse with a physical deformity, horse with unusual temperament etc etc an "ordinary" horse or not?

With all due respect, you are trying to ascribe an in-game meaning to a term not defined under in-game terminology...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mixing interpretations of English language and RAW (or in game terminology) is a dicey affair - by that reading, literally ANY horse with any distinguishing feature outside the accepted norm for the breed could not wear the shoes.

So is a fat horse, skinny horse, tall hose, short horse, horse of unusual markings, horse with a lasting injury, horse with a physical deformity, horse with unusual temperament etc etc an "ordinary" horse or not?

With all due respect, you are trying to ascribe an in-game meaning to a term not defined under in-game terminology...

But they did put that word in there for a reason, and since that word is not defined by in-game terminology, we must resort to the English language to determine their meaning.

Translating that word's English definition to an in-game definition, it would of course apply only to a creature's traits which are measured in game terms. Any horse which falls within the height and weight norms and whose markings confer no statistical advantage would be considered mechanically commonplace. A horse with a flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) would not be commonplace, nor would a Magebred horse, and neither would a PC pretending to be a horse.

The only exception to that may be if a given race has a built-in allowance which allows it to count as a horse for purposes of game mechanics. In that case, a commonplace member of that race (per its monster entry) could possibly benefit from the horseshoes, as it would fulfill both criteria: ordinary, and mechanically equivalent to a horse. You still couldn't apply any class levels to it or even modify its feats, skills, or ability scores, but that's the closest you could get to putting this item on a PC. I'm not aware of any such creature in any official sources, not even a Centaur can be counted as a horse for game mechanics, so I still don't see this item benefiting a PC beyond its intended use.

[Tytalus]

If an item can only be used by a 'female goblin' a male character cannot use it via UMD. He may be able to emulate the goblin race, but UMD cannot be used to emulate gender.


The example is moot as there's no such item or a clear RAW ruling referring to that situation.



Horseshoes of Flame very specifically can only be activated by "an ordinary horse" which per the English language would mean a commonplace horse of no special quality or interest, unexceptional and undistinguished. By RAW that means only the various Horse monster entries as-printed would qualify for that, as anything more than one of those would no longer be ordinary.


There's no such thing as a truly "ordinary" horse in the sense of the English meaning of the word (as Thurbane and Yora have pointed out), especially not in the MM: we have Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Light Warhorse, Heavy Warhorse.

Neither is an ordinary horse; the distinctive features are right there in their names. This renders the item - your interpretation assumed - useless in a D&D world. That's clearly not what the designers wanted, so it's moot to continue down that argument path.

---

Another option would be to assume that "ordinary horse" is the racial requirements, which would be something UMD can emulate. That seems more reasonable to me. YMMV.

I'd be more concerned with having to transform into "a creature resembling a nightmare" in order to actually use the horseshoes. That seems to have some roleplaying implications, and would likely limit the range of available PC actions. Assuming it's an actual nightmare (again the rules text is very vague), can he cast spells without hands? Can he climb a rope?

[Thurbane]

Maybe UMD got 'expanded' in new uses in later books. What does UMD say for 'nonhumanoid creatures' ?
I just checked the Rules Compendium, and unfortunately the UMD section on emulating a race is not significantly clarified or expanded from the PHB/SRD entry.

[GnomeGninjas]

In dragon compendium there is a CHA based spellcasting class called Sha'ir, it is based on making a minigenie give you spells. It is a interesting and powerful class.

[Wookie-ranger]

Well,
I would think that since with UMD you are able to emulate a race, you are able to emulate the Race "horse".
To better understand if this is possible or not we would need to find/come up with a better definition of what a "race" is in D&D.

Also on a side note: there is no "ordinary horse" stated up anywhere. You only have 'horse,heavy' 'horse,light' 'Warhorse,light' and 'warhorse,heavy'.
Would they all classify as Ordinary even though some are specifically trained and breed to fight?
If any of those count as an "ordinary horse" UMD should be able to duplicate the effect.
If not you might as well say that "ordinary" is an inherent template that is mentioned in the Item description but has mysterious been forgotten in any of the books. :smallwink:


If you are able to pretend to be a horse or not is not aside; how are gone wear them? Horseshoes come in sets of 4 and the picture on the same page shows 4 as well. Normal humanoids only have 2 legs, and hands don't count (since you also cannot wear boots as glove).
Centaur and such could, and probably something polymorphed, but if you are going to Poly that much for an item .... really?

[VGLordR2]

A Bariaur is only LA +1.

[Thurbane]

Just as an aside, does a Dire Horse (MM2) or horse with the Warbeast template (also MM2) count as "ordinary"?

[Agent 451]

Also on a side note: there is no "ordinary horse" stated up anywhere. You only have 'horse,heavy' 'horse,light' 'Warhorse,light' and 'warhorse,heavy'.
Would they all classify as Ordinary even though some are specifically trained and breed to fight?
If any of those count as an "ordinary horse" UMD should be able to duplicate the effect.

Don't forget all the horse breeds in CoV. In there you have:


Heavy horse breeds: Cream draft, Sembian draft,
Amphailan, Miradan’s, Tendal’s breed, and Phlan cart horse.

Heavy warhorse breeds: Amphailan black charger,
Ostorian, and Tantran destrier.

Light horse breeds: Fox Trotter, Baldurian riding horse,
Mintan riding horse, Darromar, Shire rider, Halruaan, New
Forest, Esmel long rider, Barrowright farm, and Mucklestone.

Light warhorse breeds: Golden Trotter, Duskwood
Skewbald, Ixinosia Longhair, Vilhon riding warhorse, Ember-
hawk, and Thayan Black.

Pony breeds: Orsraun pony, Snowflake Mountain pony,
Nether pony, Forest pony, Sunrise pony, Shire pony.

War pony breeds: Hammer war pony and Whiteshield
war pony.

All of the above are specifically called out as being exactly like the corresponding breeds in the MM.

Finally we have the Special Snowflakes* (take note bronies, there's a lot of ponies):

Amphail Gray
Calimite
Chionthar
Cormyrean destrier
Dales pony
Dambraii
Hammer pony
Island pony
Kromlor
Lhesperan
Meth
Nars
Raurin
Sephari
Shaaran zebra
Shad'iar
Sosser
Steppe
Tharurr
Uglib
Whiteshield


*All the Special Snowflake breeds are treated as their corresponding MM horse category, despite having different core attributes, base speed, natural armor or racial bonuses to skills. But since they all say "As (insert equine from MM page xx) here" in their descriptions, they're all "ordinary" horses....except maybe the Shaaran zebra, although they are also treated as light horses.

[Wookie-ranger]

Don't forget all the horse breeds in CoV. In there you have:


Heavy horse breeds: Cream draft, Sembian draft,
Amphailan, Miradan’s, Tendal’s breed, and Phlan cart horse.

Heavy warhorse breeds: Amphailan black charger,
Ostorian, and Tantran destrier.

Light horse breeds: Fox Trotter, Baldurian riding horse,
Mintan riding horse, Darromar, Shire rider, Halruaan, New
Forest, Esmel long rider, Barrowright farm, and Mucklestone.

Light warhorse breeds: Golden Trotter, Duskwood
Skewbald, Ixinosia Longhair, Vilhon riding warhorse, Ember-
hawk, and Thayan Black.

Pony breeds: Orsraun pony, Snowflake Mountain pony,
Nether pony, Forest pony, Sunrise pony, Shire pony.

War pony breeds: Hammer war pony and Whiteshield
war pony.

All of the above are specifically called out as being exactly like the corresponding breeds in the MM.

Finally we have the Special Snowflakes* (take note bronies, there's a lot of ponies):

Amphail Gray
Calimite
Chionthar
Cormyrean destrier
Dales pony
Dambraii
Hammer pony
Island pony
Kromlor
Lhesperan
Meth
Nars
Raurin
Sephari
Shaaran zebra
Shad'iar
Sosser
Steppe
Tharurr
Uglib
Whiteshield


*All the Special Snowflake breeds are treated as their corresponding MM horse category, despite having different core attributes, base speed, natural armor or racial bonuses to skills. But since they all say "As (insert equine from MM page xx) here" in their descriptions, they're all "ordinary" horses....except maybe the Shaaran zebra, although they are also treated as light horses.

nice. didn't know about those.

Now i have the urge to play a (awakened) horse next game. :smallbiggrin:

[Agent 451]

Some of them would be REALLY nice for that. Breeds like the Meth get +2 to Str, Con and Wis, among other things. Amphail Gray gets +2 Con, Wis and Cha.

My biggest complaint is that the Shaaran zebra takes a hit to Cha, despite the fact that stripes are cute...but I guess that being mostly wild they can be quite ornery.

[Bloodgruve]

I would rule that you could use them on any untemplated horse, warhorse, pony, donkey, or mule.

I would allow an Awakened creature with class levels to take advantage of them.

I would allow the UMD check to work on any creature with 4 hooves.

RAW is a good way to play but realistically this game is so large that every entry won't account for every rule and some of this ambiguous stuff should be left up to the DM/Group. Especially if a term is not specifically defined in the glossary.


IMHO
Blood~

[Answerer]

Generally agree, with the exception that I do not think RAW is a good way to play. RAW is a good place to start, and it's important to know what the RAW actually is, but for any actual campaign I would suggest myriad deviations from RAW, some of them quite considerable.

[Bloodgruve]

Generally agree, with the exception that I do not think RAW is a good way to play. RAW is a good place to start, and it's important to know what the RAW actually is, but for any actual campaign I would suggest myriad deviations from RAW, some of them quite considerable.

I should have said 'Raw is a good way to play for a less experienced group/dm'. Almost every game I've been able to play in has had some homebrew DM ruleing that has messed things up. I would say you should know RAW well before trying to fix it.

Blood~

[StreamOfTheSky]

No mention of Ultimate Magus? Someone mentioned Anima Mage, so PrC's seem to be fair game...

[Kazyan]

The Exemplar PrC fits beautifully into Int/Cha builds.

[TuggyNE]

My biggest complaint is that the Shaaran zebra takes a hit to Cha, despite the fact that stripes are cute...but I guess that being mostly wild they can be quite ornery.

Zebras are just genuinely mean. Even in captivity, they have a nasty streak wider than any other equine. I'm not sure they're any nicer than camels, in fact. So yeah, I can imagine them getting a hit to Cha rather easily :smalleek:.