[PF] Forced into a Role

[Mari01]

Hey Playgrounders.

Our group is starting a new game soon and our DM came up with a wonderful idea for stat generation. As soon as I heard it I knew I'd be shafted (I originally wanted to play a Halfling Monk BFC/Support role). The stats are rolled and we have to take them in the order they are roled. My stats are as so:

Str 12
Dex 11
Con 11
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 16

I really didnt want to play a caster, but I cant think of any way to salvage the stats for my Halfling Monk. Please help? If worst comes to worst, I'll just bite the bullet and play a caster.

[Answerer]

Frankly, it's an awful playstyle. I'd literally sit this game out before I'd play that way.

It makes sense for one-shots, conventions, and for older editions of D&D where the focus was not on characters but on dungeons, and random death was common and frequent, and backstories usually short and simple. Characters in 3.5 take far, far too much investment for such important parts of them to be dictated by random chance.

I'm strongly opposed to any permanent statistic to be determined by random chance. That includes abilities, HP, and any random houserules someone thinks will be "interesting" because they lead to obnoxious numerical results.

[grarrrg]

Str 12
Dex 11
Con 11
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 16

Well, the first thing that comes to mind with those stats is Synthesist Summoner (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist)
You can (mostly) ignore your physical stats that way.

But you'd prefer Monk, or at least a non-caster...
TO THE X STAT TO Y BONUS THREAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732&highlight=stat)!
[insert Adam West-Batman scene transition theme here]

Two things 'stand out'
#1. You can make DEX completely obsolete.
#2. You can do anything with CHA.

Noble Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion) feat (of War option) gets CHA to Initiative.

1 level dip into Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) > Lore Mystery > Sidestep Secret can get you CHA to AC and Ref Saves.

That takes care of ever needing DEX.

Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) 2 is always nice for the 1/day Smite Evil (CHA to hit), and CHA to All Saves. Feel free to go Archetype hunting if you only want 2 levels of Paladin.

If you still want to go Monk, then I recommend the Sensei (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sensei) archetype for WIS To-Hit.
Of, if you don't mind Archery, then Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) gets WIS To-Hit with Bows. Zen Archer is one of the best Monk Archetypes. Zen Archer also gets its Bonus Feats withOUT having to meet the Prerequisites, so your 11 Dex will not be (much of) a problem.


Alternately, and ultimately my favorite recommendation...

PLAY THE HULK!
Link #1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13004259#post13004259), Link #2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13012099#post13012099)
The first link is a straight up "Synthesist Summoner is the Hulk" build.
The second link is tweaking the first build to add Monk levels (it makes sense in the build...kind of).

End result is a Large (or Huge) green Monster that punches people.
For 2d8+16 damage.
Per hit.
Before Spells/magic items.

Yeah...

[Drelua]

I'd talk to the other players and convince them to side with you and say that they refuse to play like this. Find out if anyone else was forced to play something other than what they wanted. If one player says this is a stupid idea, he might brush you off. If everyone says it, he'll either listen or become very lonely. As I've seen said on these forums, what the DM says goes. If he says enough stupid stuff, the players go too.

[Arbane]

Pathfinder Zen Archer is about all that comes to mind, I'm afraid.

[MukkTB]

Played a D20 modern game like this recently. Wasn't so bad because D20 modern characters aren't very powerful regardless of how much you try to optimize them.

The thing is this. D&D normally fills the "Adventure Genre."
The traits of that genre are something like this:
-Combat is visceral and satisfying.
-Main characters are hyper-competent
-Enemy forces are composed of numerous weak mooks in addition to tougher foes.
-The story focuses on accomplishing heroic deeds. (Save the princess, ect.)

However playing stats as they're rolled is much more simulationist and carries a different set of traits.
-Characters are not necessarily hyper-competent.
-Players must adapt to function in the situation they find themselves in. Use the stats they have instead of doing what they want.
-Rolled stats capture some of the worse parts of real life. Some people just get the short end of the stick compared to others. It sucks but it also feels more realistic. This also allows some tropes about characters of differing power to come into being among the player base.

To be honest this kind of play feels better suited to horror genre or straight up simulationism. In fact it overlaps heavily with horror genre traits.

Horror Genre
-There are monsters.
-Characters are not hyper-competent.
-Combat is hectic and desperate.
-Characters must improvise and use their wits and the resources at hand to stay alive.

So when someone goes in expecting adventure and they get horror, they're going to feel some displacement.

[jackattack]

IIRC, this is how stats were originally determined. Accompanied by all sorts of rules about minimum scores necessary to play various character classes. Those who rolled low in all areas were forced to become assassins.

Of course, stat generation was one of the first mechanics to be house-ruled, rewritten, and generally worked over to allow people to play the characters they imagined.

[watchwood]

I've played a coupe of characters in campaigns that had stats rolled like that. Why the DMs think they're good ideas is beyond me, because it's nothing but a massive pain in the ass.

[Ailowynn]

Check out the Sensei archetype (UC pg 60). It allows you to swap Str/Dex to attack (and CMB) with Wis, as well as gaining a scaled down version of bardic performance, so your high mental attributes aren't wasted. Also, I might suggest taking a few feats to build on the Halfling's Acrobatics bonus. Soon you've got a skilled advisor as well as a good melée combatant that can tumble around opponents and across the battlefield. My humble advice.

Also, I have to say, I strongly advise you not to play a caster if you dontwant to. Never play a character for meta-gaming reasons. And sometimes having weaknesses can really make the character more interesting. Again, just my own opinions. :smallwink:

[Ravenica]

I happen to one of the types of players who enjoys it. Anyone who enjoys a challenge will. The focus for most players on this board seems to be optimization, which means I can understand why it wouldn't be popular here though. If you want to play the monk do it, it will be interesting and finding ways beyond the build to compensate is some of the greatest fun of roleplaying a flawed character

[Ailowynn]

Check out the Sensei archetype (UC pg 60). It allows you to swap Str/Dex to attack (and CMB) with Wis, as well as gaining a scaled down version of bardic performance, so your high mental attributes aren't wasted. Also, I might suggest taking a few feats to build on the Halfling's Acrobatics bonus. Soon you've got a skilled advisor as well as a good melée combatant that can tumble around opponents and across the battlefield. My humble advice.

Also, I have to say, I strongly advise you not to play a caster if you dontwant to. Never play a character for meta-gaming reasons. And sometimes having weaknesses can really make the character more interesting. Again, just my own opinions. :smallwink:

[Mari01]

Well I've been able to get some leeway with group help. My stats can be flipped but taken as is. Which puts me at

15,15,16,12,11,11

The idea I came up with was an Orc or Half-Orc Unbreakable/Barbarian. I know I'll have to get Ferocious Tenacity and was possibly looking at the Deathless chain. Any tips to help on this?

[Mari01]

Check out the Sensei archetype (UC pg 60). It allows you to swap Str/Dex to attack (and CMB) with Wis, as well as gaining a scaled down version of bardic performance, so your high mental attributes aren't wasted. Also, I might suggest taking a few feats to build on the Halfling's Acrobatics bonus. Soon you've got a skilled advisor as well as a good melée combatant that can tumble around opponents and across the battlefield. My humble advice.

Also, I have to say, I strongly advise you not to play a caster if you dontwant to. Never play a character for meta-gaming reasons. And sometimes having weaknesses can really make the character more interesting. Again, just my own opinions. :smallwink:

The character I wanted to play was going to have weaknesses. He was going to focus primarily on tripping/grappling opponents using Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, setting up flanking positions, and overall support. Not being able to pick my characters weaknesses just rubs me the wrong way. "I want to play a Fighter but I rolled 7 for Str." isnt an interesting idea to me. I'm all for challenges. But intentionally weakening myself and trying to roleplay it better seems pointless. However, it seems like the Sensei Archetype is going to be my only way to make my build happen, and even then he wouldn't be able to take any kind of damage.

[Answerer]

I happen to one of the types of players who enjoys it. Anyone who enjoys a challenge will.
False.

Actually, I'm going to just stop there. Your entire post was full of a ton of false assumptions.

[Ravenica]

{{scrubbed}}

[Eldest]

{{Scrubbed}}

Well, if you look at your post, it kinda does imply heavily the majority of people on the board are focused on power instead of roleplaying. Which could be aggravating to some people.

Anyway, which idea are you focused on, the monk or the barbarian?

[Ravenica]

Well, if you look at your post, it kinda does imply heavily the majority of people on the board are focused on power instead of roleplaying. Which could be aggravating to some people.

Anyway, which idea are you focused on, the monk or the barbarian?

I said they had a preference for optimization over playing flawed characters, is there any doubt in ANYONE'S mind that is remotely incorrect? I didn't even mention role playing besides offering the opinion that overcoming the flaws in a character was the most fun part of role playing one.

[Drelua]

I said they had a preference for optimization over playing flawed characters, is there any doubt in ANYONE'S mind that is remotely incorrect? I didn't even mention role playing besides offering the opinion that overcoming the flaws in a character was the most fun part of role playing one.

What if I had just found out about what is now my favourite ACF, Dungeoncrasher, and I was about to start a campaign at level 6, then my DM told me I had to roll like this, and I ended up with 10 Strength? I can safely say that I would not have fun playing this character.

I enjoy a challenge, but I would be pissed off at my DM. That's nothing to do with optimization, which I really don't care about, that's normal. That's basically the DM slapping my new shiny toy out of my hands, then telling me to either use it anyway even though it barely works, or just play with something else. My character would be either be useless or something I don't want to play. It's fine if you like playing like that, but saying that anyone who enjoys a challenge will feel the same way as you is incredibly presumptuous.

Edit: In hopes of preventing an argument, he never said he stopped you, he said he would stop there, as in stop himself. I'm quite certain he was not trolling, and accusing him of such is against board policy.

[Mari01]

Well, if you look at your post, it kinda does imply heavily the majority of people on the board are focused on power instead of roleplaying. Which could be aggravating to some people.

Anyway, which idea are you focused on, the monk or the barbarian?

If the monk is salvageable then I'd like to use him, since that was my original idea. Sensei is viable I suppose, but I'm dreading being COMPLETELY useless until the Wisdom bonuses kick in.

[Ravenica]

If you'd DM is laying out that's how character creation will work from the get go then I see no problem with it, same as any other house rules. If you don't get to play with your new favorite build because you don't like the stat layout it doesn't mean his playstyle is wrong, he's a bad DM, or he is in any way targetting your build to slap it out of your hand.

As for being pissed at the DM, well really that has nothing to do with whether it is challenging or not does it, it comes down to players sense of entitlement. If he ruled that the material you wanted to use was unsuitable for any reason you'd be pissed. And making any statement about players feeling differently than I do is equally presumptuous so we can just agree to disagree on what constitutes a challenge, entertaining, and a flaw. I may have worded it poorly but I'm certainly not about to take flack from someone who made a blanket statement like
Frankly, it's an awful playstyle. about my choice in grammar. It may not be a playstyle he enjoys but thats no more correct than anything I said.


edit: back on topic:
drunken master could offset the lower strength with extra damage if you wanted to go that route, magic to boost stats is fairly easy to get your hands on in general, DM willing. Are those stats pre or post racial adjustment? if it's pre and you aren't tied to halfling there are some good new races in the ARG that just came out that can really give your monk some oomph

[Slipperychicken]

I said they had a preference for optimization over playing flawed characters, is there any doubt in ANYONE'S mind that is remotely incorrect? I didn't even mention role playing besides offering the opinion that overcoming the flaws in a character was the most fun part of role playing one.

Optimization is building to a goal. If that goal is invincibility, so be it. If that purpose is a fun, balanced, flawed character, so be it. You build to whatever your character-vision is. The OP wants to play a competent Monk -a task hard enough even with appropriate stats.


A frontliner with 11 Con and just a d8 of hit points per level goes a bit past "flawed" and well into the realm of "death sentence". For some perspective, such a Monk would be about as squishy as the Wizard, and standing right in the line of fire, he'd go down much quicker. Basically, the original stats would leave him as a bloody stain the moment a competent foe attacked him.

[Mari01]

If you'd DM is laying out that's how character creation will work from the get go then I see no problem with it, same as any other house rules. If you don't get to play with your new favorite build because you don't like the stat layout it doesn't mean his playstyle is wrong, he's a bad DM, or he is in any way targetting your build to slap it out of your hand.

As for being pissed at the DM, well really that has nothing to do with whether it is challenging or not does it, it comes down to players sense of entitlement. If he ruled that the material you wanted to use was unsuitable for any reason you'd be pissed. And making any statement about players feeling differently than I do is equally presumptuous so we can just agree to disagree on what constitutes a challenge, entertaining, and a flaw. I may have worded it poorly but I'm certainly not about to take flack from someone who made a blanket statement like about my choice in grammar. It may not be a playstyle he enjoys but thats no more correct than anything I said.


edit: back on topic:
drunken master could offset the lower strength with extra damage if you wanted to go that route, magic to boost stats is fairly easy to get your hands on in general, DM willing. Are those stats pre or post racial adjustment? if it's pre and you aren't tied to halfling there are some good new races in the ARG that just came out that can really give your monk some oomph

I checked the ARG. The race that would be the best fit for where I need the stats most would be Hobgoblin with +2 Dex and +2 Con.

[Ravenica]

Ignoring another person who would rather pick apart my posts that offer advice, I ran through the ARG real quick and if you aren't tied to halfling, Vanaras is definately an interesting option with dex and wis up and cha down, as well as an interesting Variant Monk archetype of it's own. Oread, Tengu, duergar, and gripplis also have some interesting prospects though most suffer a con or str hit. Oreads would be a second choice with STR and wis up and cha down. I'd hesistate to suggest Svirfneblin but I can't see it meshing with a monk build too well.

[Hecuba]

What if I had just found out about what is now my favourite ACF, Dungeoncrasher, and I was about to start a campaign at level 6, then my DM told me I had to roll like this, and I ended up with 10 Strength? I can safely say that I would not have fun playing this character.

If you're coming to a game with stats rolled in order with an existing character concept, you are (in my bombastically self-assured opinion) missing the point.

I look at the "organic-rolled" character creation methods are the role-playing of prompted creative writing exercises: the constraint is part of the point. The will be future games, without constraints, where you can try your existing concepts. Use the constraint as something to direct, rather than something to limit.


How I do organic-rolled character building
Determine your demographics (gender, race, place of birth). Now, look at the ability scores you roll: what event would bring a person with that background and those natural abilities be an adventurer? How did they react to that event? What skills did they hone to become an adventurer?


There are still huge mechanical problems with this generation method. The sharp tendency of the higher tier classes to be SAD combined with the lack of the hard attribute cap present in prior versions of D&D means that this method with make balance issues even sharper.
I've admittedly not done much with PF, so there may be solutions in their midrange casters that I'm not aware.

But these balance issues are a seperate issue from character concept (mechanical or story): while 3.X is generally amicable to building a character to fit a concept (rather than the other way around), for this kind of character-creation that is quite simply putting the cart before the horse.

[Ravenica]

Some archetype suggestions would be:
Monk of the Sacred Mountain (APG) should seriously help with the survivability although you lose evasion for toughness and a single point of natural armor

Zen archer as stated before, sadly it doesnt use wis for the ranged attacks until 3rd level, but you do get weapon specialization later on too.

Qingong: Really I don't know if you could make a BAD support monk with this archetype even if you tried

Flowing Monk: You'll be the rogues best friend
not to mention get to oppose attack rolls with reflex saves at 5th level (half damage)
and no damage on a succesful save after 11

Sensei (as noted earlier)

Sohei: eh not sure, could be good for a strike and run monk going for battlefield disruption, but would be difficult to manage in a dungeon setting

[Drelua]

If you'd DM is laying out that's how character creation will work from the get go then I see no problem with it, same as any other house rules. If you don't get to play with your new favorite build because you don't like the stat layout it doesn't mean his playstyle is wrong, he's a bad DM, or he is in any way targetting your build to slap it out of your hand.

As for being pissed at the DM, well really that has nothing to do with whether it is challenging or not does it, it comes down to players sense of entitlement. If he ruled that the material you wanted to use was unsuitable for any reason you'd be pissed. And making any statement about players feeling differently than I do is equally presumptuous so we can just agree to disagree on what constitutes a challenge, entertaining, and a flaw. I may have worded it poorly but I'm certainly not about to take flack from someone who made a blanket statement like about my choice in grammar. It may not be a playstyle he enjoys but thats no more correct than anything I said.

If I really wanted to play a Psychic Warrior or a Totemist and the DM told me that wouldn't fit with his setting, I'd be fine with that. If he said he thought either was broken, I would have a polite discussion with him about how much more powerful T1 casters are, and drop it if he wouldn't agree. But if he tells me 'roll to see if it can work', of course I'd be mad! That's not entitlement, I'm there to have fun too, and I wouldn't have fun like that.

This thread reminds me of this module I'm playing in Neverwinter Nights. The only henchman I can get is a Rogue 5/Fighter 5, and I'm a Rogue 8/Fighter 2. The problem with this henchman is that she cannot go 2 fights without dying because she only has 10 CON to represent some sickness she has, and thanks to equipment, everything she can do I can do better. I don't know about you, but I'm fairly sure that the majority of D&D players would not enjoy being that useless. Generating stats so that they have to be kept in the order they rolled can, as Mari01 said, force you into a role, and that may not be a role you want to play.

I apologize if this comes across as telling you that your playstyle is wrong, I merely intend to discuss the merits of such a stat generation method in a friendly manner. :smallsmile: I suppose this basically comes down to a difference of opinion on how much control to a DM should have over character creation. Nearly everyone would agree that they must have some, but randomly generating which class choices are viable strikes me as pretty ridiculous. Then again, if you like to play a wide variety of characters and have half as much trouble making up your mind as I do, I can see how it might be helpful. Personally, I can't stand playing a character who's job in a fight is to do anything but hit it until it stops moving, so this system is much more likely to bother me than a lot of other people.

Wow, that reply got a bit longer than I had intended. Oh well.

[huttj509]

In terms of "the old days," I'll just leave this here from the AD&D 1e manual:

As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used.

[it then lists 4 methods, 4d6 drop lowest arrange as wanted, 3d6 12 times take 6 highest, 3d6 six times for each ability keep highest of the 6 for each ability (woah), roll 3d6 in order for 12 characters, pick the set you want.]

Not saying what's "right" method, but alternatives were recommended quite early on.

That said, I personally don't mind 3d6 in order occasionally, need to know when the game's being suggested though, so I don't spend mental time planning before finding out what I can do.

[Mari01]

Only one person in the group was lucky enough to actually have die rolls match their idea somewhat before stat rolling. The goblin ranger has the highest Str, Dex, and Con. 15 Str (Even after the -2), a 21 dex starting out with the +4 racial, and a 15 Con. And yes I should clarify that this method wasn't brought up ahead of time. I was told it was just a "Hey, wouldn't this be cool if we..." type of thing.

[Ravens_cry]

I guess the best thing that can be said of this method is it can get one out of a role playing rut and look at options one wouldn't otherwise consider.
Unfortunately, because of how ability scores affect modifiers in d20, this is much less viable at creating playable characters than in first edition AD&D, which expected random ability score generation and had stats work accordingly.
I'd say the Goblin Archer got very lucky indeed, getting equivalent to a 33 point buy in the physical stats alone.

[Eldest]

Ok, next question, are you restricted to just Pathfinder stuff or can you mix in 3.5 stuff?

[Answerer]

{{scrubbed}}

[Midnight_v]

@Answerer, I agree with you. Seriously, though from that guys first post you have to understand that there exista a huge gap in what he knows about the game and what you know about the game. Playing a certain way and harboring beliefs like the ones expressed are things that aren't going to be changed by arguing him down or with reason. Let him stay obstinate untill he's learned enough to at least grasp the concept on his own. Just my advice.

@ the op. I wanted to oddly echo the second post, I see you've managed to swap you stats around a bit, however using the "Syntihest Summoner" with its bound suit etc can makes a really interesting character if you keep it in mind "My character is a monk, not a mage" so as long as the pc's personality is all holy and thoughtful, having some Divine Form, is just a natural extension of that. Expecially interesting on a halfling. Though it is of course cool that your dm was reasonable and let you switch stats.

[Mari01]

I guess the best thing that can be said of this method is it can get one out of a role playing rut and look at options one wouldn't otherwise consider.
Unfortunately, because of how ability scores affect modifiers in d20, this is much less viable at creating playable characters than in first edition AD&D, which expected random ability score generation and had stats work accordingly.
I'd say the Goblin Archer got very lucky indeed, getting equivalent to a 33 point buy in the physical stats alone.

He's not even going ranged. He's going to be a TWF.



Ok, next question, are you restricted to just Pathfinder stuff or can you mix in 3.5 stuff?

For now just PF.

[Ravens_cry]

He's not even going ranged. He's going to be a TWF.

Why, oh gods, why?:smalleek:
He has perfect stats for an archer, and TWF. . .
Oh the humanity!:eek:

[Hecuba]

Roll in order does not work with 3.5 and was not intended to work with 3.5.

Page 169 of the DMG would seem to disagree with at least the 2nd half of that statement.

It certainly yields lower-powered characters, but I can hardly imagine that anyone believes 3.5 has such finely-honed and precise balance that stat variation will make or break the system.

And just because many people find highly-detailed character customization to be a merit of 3.x does not mean that it is the only merit of the system, nor that it is the only reason people play it. Many tables get by quite well adapting a single system to their needs rather than learning the best system for any given concept.


For example, you roll an 8 – or worse – in Constitution. Congratulations, might as well go get yourself killed now so you can try again – because that ability score is not viable.

I would characterize intentionally killing a character because you don't like the stats as poor sportsmanship, regardless of system or mechanical effect. In my book, that's right up there with "rocks fall, everyone dies" and aggressively playing at a higher power level than the rest of the table.

That said, yes, it's quite likely that organic-rolled characters will die more often. So what? Death and failure can be compelling if you want them to be.

Just because you can invest a skajillion hours tweaking the mechanics of a character in 3.x does not mean you are required to.

Moreover, with the plethora of stat-boosting avenues available in 3.X, a single score with a penalty is hardly the most glaring discrepancy. I would be more concerned with the exacerbation of the caster/martial power gap.


And if your DM plays such that a Con 8 character can survive, then he isn't challenging you, he's playing with kid gloves on.

And I don't see how adjusting the difficulty level for the current table is "playing with the kid gloves on." How is that different than lowering the difficulty for any other reason (like accommodating a group with no characters above tier 4)?

CR is, at best, a guide. If your group can manage 4-5 encounters/day at ~CR-2, what problem is there with tailoring encounters around CR -2?


A real challenge is saving the world, killing the dragon, preventing the apocalypse, conquering the underworld, or surviving through hell.

No. Those are the challenges you are interested in. There are other challenges to be found: you can fight a single demon that's subverting the kingdom. Or turning the tide of a battle. Or buying enough time for civilians to evacuate.

There is drama inherent in either set, and either one can loose that drama: even storming the gates of hell can become trite if done often enough.

[Togo]

3.5's entire system is built around certain assumptions, and one of these includes having some say over the ability scores that you get. There are combinations of ability scores that are always bad.

For example, you roll an 8 – or worse – in Constitution. Congratulations, might as well go get yourself killed now so you can try again – because that ability score is not viable.

And if your DM plays such that a Con 8 character can survive, then he isn't challenging you, he's playing with kid gloves on.

There's only one comment I feel does this justice.

It's this one:


False.

Actually, I'm going to just stop there. Your entire post was full of a ton of false assumptions.

Practice what you preach, my friend. :smallwink:

In all seriousness, if you can't keep a character with an 8 con alive, maybe you're doing something wrong?

[eggs]

This thread is hilarious.

[Eldest]

This thread is hilarious.

Isn't it?
If you can't use 3.5 content, I can't help. My knowledge of PF comes from looking around their SRD, never actually played a game.

[StreamOfTheSky]

(I originally wanted to play a Halfling Monk BFC/Support role). The stats are rolled and we have to take them in the order they are roled. My stats are as so:

Str 12
Dex 11
Con 11
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 16

I really didnt want to play a caster, but I cant think of any way to salvage the stats for my Halfling Monk. Please help? If worst comes to worst, I'll just bite the bullet and play a caster.

I'm gonna have to agree w/ the guy who suggested Synthesist. A monk needs 4 good stats; you don't have them. Even if you can switch them around, it won't work too well. You do have near-perfect stats for a synthesist, though (if you can switch str 12 w/ con or dex, that'd be better, though). And a synthesist, if you're willing to re-flavor things as more martial-arts related, fulfills your goals quite well, too. With the size and strength and reach, you can actually control the battlefield much better, and you have evolutions for push, pull, grab, etc... Just pretend your natural attacks are unarmed strikes.

Any particular reason you're so attached to halfling, though? I mean, it can work...synthesist will make you medium sized anyway; but...half-elf and human are much better summoner races.

[nightwyrm]

Suicide and reroll characters until you get the one you want.

[Lord_Gareth]

My advice: don't play a monk in PF. They managed to nerf them from 3.5, a feat I thought impossible. It ain't worth it bro.

[Mari01]

I know theyre not the optimal choice, but I dont want to outshine everyone else. There's also another player in the same boat as me who said "Screw this, being a synthesist." So while yea I know the synthesist could work, the way things are going it will be three synthesists and a ranger.

[Answerer]

Maybe that will clue your DM in to the fact that his players don't want to play this game.

[Ravenica]

I know theyre not the optimal choice, but I dont want to outshine everyone else. There's also another player in the same boat as me who said "Screw this, being a synthesist." So while yea I know the synthesist could work, the way things are going it will be three synthesists and a ranger.

hmmm have you considered Alchemist? You probably could use those stats to make a pretty kickass unarmed fighter, the lack of con doesn't matter because your mutagen kicks you up a notch, and it isn't really a caster class

[Mari01]

hmmm have you considered Alchemist? You probably could use those stats to make a pretty kickass unarmed fighter, the lack of con doesn't matter because your mutagen kicks you up a notch, and it isn't really a caster class

I was thinking this, but extracts were just too close. I've got the stats for a casting druid right? I can play one of those and let my animal companion be the melee I wanted. How's that?

[jackattack]

I suggest three courses of action.

1. Three people play synthesists in an effort to make the DM see that this isn't working. (As above.)

2. Announce that you are putting your favored character aside for a future game, and play a different (optimal?) character in this game as a write-off.

3. Politely tell the DM you want to catch up on some reading or TV, and to call you when this game is over.

[Ravenica]

I was thinking this, but extracts were just too close. I've got the stats for a casting druid right? I can play one of those and let my animal companion be the melee I wanted. How's that?

well you really cant go wrong with druid, and with wildshape you can still do the melee yourself as well heh

I haven't looked at druid archetypes too much but theres probably something in there that might interest you, dinosaur shaman comes to mind lol

[nedz]

Hey Playgrounders.

Our group is starting a new game soon and our DM came up with a wonderful idea for stat generation. As soon as I heard it I knew I'd be shafted (I originally wanted to play a Halfling Monk BFC/Support role). The stats are rolled and we have to take them in the order they are roled. My stats are as so:

Str 12
Dex 11
Con 11
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 16

I really didnt want to play a caster, but I cant think of any way to salvage the stats for my Halfling Monk. Please help? If worst comes to worst, I'll just bite the bullet and play a caster.

We gave up on in-order methods back-in-the-day as soon as we became aware of better methods because its kind of lame. There was the meta-game of here are some stats, what can you make with these. That got old fairly quickly, but I think I still have the touch.

From the above you can make a Monk-Skill Monkey. You have Int for skill points, and Wis obviously. With the Cha you could even be the Face. You were obviously That-Guy at the Monastery who did all the stuff the real Monks were no good at. Don't be afraid to dip other more relevant classes.
Now this is probably not the character you had in mind, or even want to play, but there's nothing I can do about that.:smallsmile:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Maybe that will clue your DM in to the fact that his players don't want to play this game.

This.

Definitely make a synthesist. Your DM forced the issue by being so hard-nosed about not giving you control over your own stats. It only makes sense people, especially melee (who need ability scores much more than casters, aside from their one casting stat) would abandon ship for the one class in PF that lets you ignore half of your own scores. Playing a whole lot of synthesist both lets you still enjoy the game AND sends the DM a crystal clear message of what you all think of his characer creation methods.

So join your synthesist brethren.

P.S.: If two others are already playing synthesists and the other PCs are presumably playing more traditional stand-back-and-win-from-safety casters...why in the hell are you worried about overshadowing anybody?

[Mari01]

This.

Definitely make a synthesist. Your DM forced the issue by being so hard-nosed about not giving you control over your own stats. It only makes sense people, especially melee (who need ability scores much more than casters, aside from their one casting stat) would abandon ship for the one class in PF that lets you ignore half of your own scores. Playing a whole lot of synthesist both lets you still enjoy the game AND sends the DM a crystal clear message of what you all think of his characer creation methods.

So join your synthesist brethren.

P.S.: If two others are already playing synthesists and the other PCs are presumably playing more traditional stand-back-and-win-from-safety casters...why in the hell are you worried about overshadowing anybody?

Currently there's one synthesist. The goblin ranger, despite having a starting dex in the 20's is opting for a TWF build. That leaves me and one other player who both got good mentals and garbage physicals (His CON might be lower than mine.)

[Tokuhara]

As bad as it may seem, but Sorcerer (yes, a caster. Follow the bouncing ball) could be a blast.

Race: Here's the opening of creativity. Tiefling could be fun (whut?? - to Charisma? Are you crazy???), but focus on INT
Class: This is why I say a race with Intelligence. Wild-Crossblooded Wordsd of Power Sorcerer (Dragon and Sage) ~10/Dragon Disciple 10

Now. Here's how it works:

The Sage Wild Bloodline changes your casting stat to Intelligence, making your Charisma moot. The Dragon bloodline opens Dragon Disciple, who gets an Intelligence boost (boosting your Casting Stat). It also beefs up your physical stats and with spells, you can really boost your AC (you get natural armor from DD). You now have:

Ability Score Buffs that would make a fighter jealous
Flight
Natural Armor
Form of the Dragon 2/day
Blindsense
Everything from the Dragon Bloodline (through a combination of Class Features and Eldritch Heritage Feat chain)
3 Natural Weapons and a Breath Weapon 3x/day
d12 Hit Dice (makes up for a crappy CON)

You can now happily wade into combat, doing pre-combat buffs, then smashing enemies with 8th level spells and decent melee attacks. Go my child. Have fun giving your GM an anyeurism.

[grarrrg]

Race: Here's the opening of creativity. Tiefling could be fun (whut?? - to Charisma? Are you crazy???), but focus on INT
Class: This is why I say a race with Intelligence. Wild-Crossblooded Wordsd of Power Sorcerer (Dragon and Sage) ~10/Dragon Disciple 10

Now. Here's how it works:

The Sage Wild Bloodline changes your casting stat to Intelligence, making your Charisma moot....

I've tried to see if a Sage+Dragon Disciple was viable in a previous thread.
Consensus? Not so good...

And he's got a good enough Cha score, so no sense wasting Crossblooded on Sage anyway.

Pair Dragon with Orc (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/orc-bloodline) for +2 Str at level 9, up to +6 Str at level 17.
Pair with Dragon Disciple for +10 Str at level 17!!

OR, pair Dragon with Pit-Touched (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/pit-touched) (Wild version of Infernal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/infernal-bloodline)) and get +2 Con at level 9, +6 Con at level 17.
Pair with Dragon Disciple for +8 Con at level 17!!

In either case, for (at least) the first 6 levels you play as a standard Caster.
Then, once the Dragon Disciple bonuses start piling up you go into GISH SMASH! mode.

For Race, something with preferably a Str and/or Con boost would be good, Cha as well if possible.

Suli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Suli) is good with +Str/Cha, -Int and Resist Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec 5

Or, if you can swing it, Tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Tiefling), specifically, Demon-Spawn for +Str/Cha, -Int, or Kyton-Spawn for +Con/Cha, -Int, as an ADDED BONUS! If you pair with the Infernal example above, you are considered to have an EXTRA +2 Cha for all Sorc abilities. You also have Fire/Cold/Elec resist 5.

[Metahuman1]

I would have to say the best ways to go about this are as follows, at least form my perspective.

The Summoner Suggestion that's been thrown around a couple of times now, as it does seem to just solve your problem with a simple re-fluff.

The Alchemist offers neat Support tricks and some solid Buffs to make Melee at least semi viable. And again, Re-fluffing is helpful here. Those aren't quasi Magitech concoctions your using, there anchinet semi-mystic Far eastern Herbal remedies and recipes to help you and your friends!

The Druid can grapple and Trip and Flank and even Bulls Rush stuff into position on occasion with Wild Shape and Animal Companion. And focus on self and Party healing and Buffing (Not in that order.) with your spell casting, you can do tones of support. The only physical stat to worry about here is Con, and the answer is to self buff that one stat into the stratosphere with utter ruthlessness.

Or use some of the Monk Archetypes to reduce MAD, as has been suggested. Some of the dips suggested early on in the thread also accomplish this. Incidentally, I believe there is a trick floating around in the Psionics realm to get Wis Mod to HP in place of (Or overlapping.) Con Mod. Grab that if you opt to lock in on Wis and if 3rd Party Pathfinder Material is open.