Amusing alignment issue with planar binidng

[Spuddles]

Casting alignment based spells will move your alignment towards that of the spell. If you use planar binding to trap angels, you're casting a good spell. This means you can commit any manner of heinous acts and not worry about your alignment shifting to evil, so long as you bind enough angels. Bonus points if you actually use the angels to do evil things.

:smallbiggrin:

[Malimar]

Casting alignment based spells will move your alignment towards that of the spell.

Source?

I was under the impression that using a [descriptor] spell is a [corresponding alignment] act, that's all. And that whether or not committing an [alignment] act "moves your alignment" towards [alignment], and under what conditions an act of one alignment outweighs acts of other alignments, is largely up to the player and the DM.

[Psyren]

Summoning 100 angels to cancel murdering an orphan is NWN alignment, not D&D.

Also, keep in mind that Planar Binding is a coercive trap, not a willing partnership.

[Oscredwin]

Also, keep in mind that Planar Binding is a coercive trap, not a willing partnership.

Yes, but it's also casting a spell with the good descriptor. That's one of the few, by the book, indisputable good acts in the game (of some undetermined magnitude).

[Alleran]

Summon a succubus (or demon/devil/yugoloth of your choosing). Mindrape it into accepting a Ritual of Alignment and change its alignment. Give it the Good subtype. Release it. Now, every time you summon that particular creature again (if you take a note of its true name), it'll have the [Good] descriptor.

Bonus points if you do this to a demon lord, since they're unique creatures. Whacking Demogorgon with the Good subtype is so very much worth getting whacked in the head by a DMG.

[Ravenica]

last i checked alignment spells were restricted by alignment, they didn't affect it

[SiuiS]

Yes, but it's also casting a spell with the good descriptor. That's one of the few, by the book, indisputable good acts in the game (of some undetermined magnitude).

Bit the act of binding an angel could itself be evil, depending on context. It's not a zero sum game; you don't go for more good points than evil and expect to only get the net.

[eggs]

Casting alignment based spells will move your alignment towards that of the spell.
If that's true, the Malconvoker just broke.
Source?

[Mithril Leaf]

Summon a succubus (or demon/devil/yugoloth of your choosing). Mindrape it into accepting a Ritual of Alignment and change its alignment. Give it the Good subtype. Release it. Now, every time you summon that particular creature again (if you take a note of its true name), it'll have the [Good] descriptor.

Bonus points if you do this to a demon lord, since they're unique creatures. Whacking Demogorgon with the Good subtype is so very much worth getting whacked in the head by a DMG.

Bonus points if you pull it off by using tainted scholar and necropolitan to boost your save DCs so high he can't resist. Mindrape all the arch demons and devils and turn the lowers planes into a good aligned paradise.

[Spuddles]

Bit the act of binding an angel could itself be evil, depending on context. It's not a zero sum game; you don't go for more good points than evil and expect to only get the net.

Nope, by RAW, the act of binding an angel is Good.

[ShadowPsyker]

You must cast circle of protection Good to trap it (An evil spell).

My True Neutral Wizard loves binding CE or CG creatures because the act of casting pro Evil is good, then calling is CE, then forcing a chaotic creature into a contract is by most DM standards lawful. Ditto for the reverse.

[Alleran]

Bonus points if you pull it off by using tainted scholar and necropolitan to boost your save DCs so high he can't resist. Mindrape all the arch demons and devils and turn the lowers planes into a good aligned paradise.
I can't take credit for the idea. I'm playing in the Savage Tide adventure path at the moment, and the wizard player came up with the tactic (he started with S'Shara and then moved on to Shami-Amourae, but first he hit them with the Necrotic Cyst + Tumor combo to make sure they did what he told them to do).

[KillianHawkeye]

last i checked alignment spells were restricted by alignment, they didn't affect it

That is only true of Clerics (and possibly some other Cleric-like divine spellcasters). Most spellcasters can cast whatever spells they want regardless of their alignment.

Also, yes, casting a spell with an [alignment] descriptor does count as an act of said alignment. Doing enough acts of a particular alignment should eventually (with DM fiat) cause a shift in alignment in the appropriate direction.

[Spuddles]

You must cast circle of protection Good to trap it (An evil spell).

My True Neutral Wizard loves binding CE or CG creatures because the act of casting pro Evil is good, then calling is CE, then forcing a chaotic creature into a contract is by most DM standards lawful. Ditto for the reverse.

An extended circle of protection will let you cast 2xCL planar bindings.

[Andorax]

I agree with the "NWN Morality" comment above.

...but maybe, just maybe...summoning all those angels and getting gently lectured by them each time while instructing them on whatever sort of heinous act you are forcing them to perform will wear off.

Depends on if you're actually role-playing being in the presence of a being of pure Good make changes to your character's nature, or if you're going "LoL...rule loophole...whee....".

[Spuddles]

I agree with the "NWN Morality" comment above.

...but maybe, just maybe...summoning all those angels and getting gently lectured by them each time while instructing them on whatever sort of heinous act you are forcing them to perform will wear off.

Depends on if you're actually role-playing being in the presence of a being of pure Good make changes to your character's nature, or if you're going "LoL...rule loophole...whee....".

Are you always this fun?

[Andorax]

Are you always this fun?

Yeah, I tend to be. I also tend to comment as much for the sake of the inexperienced onlooker that might not know any better as for the OP.

And I legitimately do think there's interesting RP in a nongood summoner who repeatedly summons celestials and actually undergoes a change of heart over time.

[sreservoir]

If that's true, the Malconvoker just broke.
Source?

malconvoker has a clause for that.

[Malimar]

I agree with the "NWN Morality" comment above.

...but maybe, just maybe...summoning all those angels and getting gently lectured by them each time while instructing them on whatever sort of heinous act you are forcing them to perform will wear off.

Depends on if you're actually role-playing being in the presence of a being of pure Good make changes to your character's nature, or if you're going "LoL...rule loophole...whee....".

Are you always this fun?

I thought Andorax's comment was a legitimately fun idea that makes this apparent loophole abuse actually make sense, but I can't quite tell if your concurring response was sarcastic. Since it wasn't in blue or indigo, I can only assume that your sentiment was genuine. So: I agree.

[Sudain]

Purely for posterity; is there acutal RAW that states casting a binding of a good creature is a good act?

[Cruiser1]

Purely for posterity; is there acutal RAW that states casting a binding of a good creature is a good act?
Yes, "when you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type". Also, according to BoVD p8, casting [evil] spells is an evil act. Beyond that, casting an evil spell is a 1 point corrupt act (FC2 p30) where having 9+ corruption points is enough to send your soul to the Nine Hells when you die, no matter how many good acts you've otherwise done.

[ThiagoMartell]

Purely for posterity; is there acutal RAW that states casting a binding of a good creature is a good act?

Casting a Good spell is a good act.
During this planar binding, you need to cast an Evil spell, so the acts cancel each other.
It's officially stated you can perform good acts and still remain evil.
So... there is no alignment issue here, actually.

[Psyren]

During this planar binding, you need to cast an Evil spell, so the acts cancel each other.

This is also important. Did the OP factor that in?

[ThiagoMartell]

This is also important. Did the OP factor that in?

Doubt that. I'm guessing both player and DM just skimmed through the planar binding rules.

[Sudain]

Yes, "when you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type". Also, according to BoVD p8, casting [evil] spells is an evil act. Beyond that, casting an evil spell is a 1 point corrupt act (FC2 p30) where having 9+ corruption points is enough to send your soul to the Nine Hells when you die, no matter how many good acts you've otherwise done.

Thank you very much. :)

[whibla]

Summon a succubus (or demon/devil/yugoloth of your choosing). Mindrape it into accepting a Ritual of Alignment and change its alignment. Give it the Good subtype. Release it. Now, every time you summon that particular creature again (if you take a note of its true name), it'll have the [Good] descriptor.

Just as a side note, the subtype doesn't change, by RAW (see description of the subtypes in the MM etc.). An outsider's alignment does not affect its subtype, even if their alignment changes to one opposed to its subtype. Any detect alignment type spell will always detect outsiders with the [evil] subtype as evil, and will detect outsiders with the [good] subtype as good, irrespective of their actual alignment.

On another note, the protection from x spell used to create the inward focussed ward to contain the summoned creature does not need to be of the opposite alignment to the creaute being summoned and bound. Any protection from x spell hedges out (or in, in this case) summoned creatures, again irrespective of their alignment.

A couple of final points: Can an evil caster even cast a spell with the [good] descriptor? Or a good caster cast one with the [evil] descriptor? I vaguely remember some rule on it, though that might simply be one about clerics of good gods not having access to [evil] spells, and vice-versa. Also, RAW aside for a moment, I struggle to see how trapping a [good] creature, and keeping it trapped, until it agrees to do some service for you can ever really be considered a good act. Just another wonderful feature of alignments, I guess...

[ThiagoMartell]

Purely for posterity; is there acutal RAW that states casting a binding of a good creature is a good act?

Calling a good outsider is a good act. Binding a good outsider is an evil act.

[TuggyNE]

A couple of final points: Can an evil caster even cast a spell with the [good] descriptor? Or a good caster cast one with the [evil] descriptor? I vaguely remember some rule on it, though that might simply be one about clerics of good gods not having access to [evil] spells, and vice-versa.

The restriction only applies to clerics (and, presumably, paladins). For that matter, I believe it's possible to be a Good cleric of a Neutral god casting Evil spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Calling a good outsider is a good act. Binding a good outsider is an evil act.
See the post above yours:

On another note, the protection from x spell used to create the inward focussed ward to contain the summoned creature does not need to be of the opposite alignment to the creaute being summoned and bound. Any protection from x spell hedges out (or in, in this case) summoned creatures, again irrespective of their alignment.

[ThiagoMartell]

See the post above yours:

That post is completely incorrect.
First of all, you can't use protection from X spells. You need magic circle from X spells.
And...

This spell has an alternative version that you may choose when casting it. A magic circle against evil can be focused inward rather than outward. When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That post is completely incorrect.
First of all, you can't use protection from X spells. You need magic circle from X spells.
And...

Alright, so Magic Circle Against Law/Chaos.

[ThiagoMartell]

Alright, so Magic Circle Against Law/Chaos.

If it's not a guardinal, it could work, yes.
Doesn't change the fact that performing good acts, by itself, does not change your alignment from evil. You can be evil and still perform good acts, as I mentioned before (Champions of Ruin, pages 6 and 7).

[Spuddles]

This is also important. Did the OP factor that in?

For every extended magic circle against evil you use, you can get 2xCL in angels. Of couse, if you summon archons, you can use magic circle against law.

[whibla]

That post is completely incorrect.
First of all, you can't use protection from X spells. You need magic circle from X spells.

Ah, a bit of version slip on my part, sorry. I still have a tendancy to think of, and refer to, the magic circle spells as protection from x 10' radius.


And...

I'm not sure if this bit was version slip or just a shocking lapse of memory on my part. Completely wrong indeed.

Thank you for pointing out, and correcting, my mistake.

[deuxhero]

Also odd about the spell gaining the [alignment] tag is that Clerics that get Planar Binding through domains or shenanigans and don't have a neutral alignment component can't do the main use of the spell.

[sreservoir]

If it's not a guardinal, it could work, yes.
Doesn't change the fact that performing good acts, by itself, does not change your alignment from evil. You can be evil and still perform good acts, as I mentioned before (Champions of Ruin, pages 6 and 7).

both work on guardinals, actually -- they work on non-opposites, not just what's in the title.

[Callista]

I don't think it'd be an evil act just to summon a celestial. What you asked it to do after that would be the crucial factor.

And, well--if you force it to do horrible, horrible things? Then, when it gets killed or returns home or disappears because you've trapped it somewhere, all of its celestial friends are going to be extremely angry at you, and you won't last very long. Good-aligned creatures tend to take exception to people who summon angels and force them to kick puppies and kill orphans.

[ShadowPsyker]

On another note, the protection from x spell used to create the inward focussed ward to contain the summoned creature does not need to be of the opposite alignment to the creaute being summoned and bound. Any protection from x spell hedges out (or in, in this case) summoned creatures, again irrespective of their alignment.

Wrong. Magic circle spells explicitly state what type of alignment, i.e. non-good, non-lawful, etc... they affect. The only way it doesn't matter is if you are summoning an Elemental which is true neutral and so it's non everything. The casting of the the circle spell you use will still have an alignment.

[ThiagoMartell]

both work on guardinals, actually -- they work on non-opposites, not just what's in the title.

Aren't guardinals the neutral good angels? That's what I meant, anyway

[Alleran]

Just as a side note, the subtype doesn't change, by RAW (see description of the subtypes in the MM etc.). An outsider's alignment does not affect its subtype, even if their alignment changes to one opposed to its subtype. Any detect alignment type spell will always detect outsiders with the [evil] subtype as evil, and will detect outsiders with the [good] subtype as good, irrespective of their actual alignment.
There are two elements. There's the Ritual of Alignment, which can change their subtype. And there's the Mindrape, which can change their alignment.

[sreservoir]

Aren't guardinals the neutral good angels? That's what I meant, anyway

right, so you can use either against law (which works against non-chaotics) or against chaos (which works against non-lawfuls).

in the same vein, neutral neutral things can be trapped with any magic circle.