[PF/3.5] Squishy divine caster?

[Kavurcen]

[If you know who I am, then you know who you are; there are campaign spoilers here, get out.]

Tl;dr is in bold.

Hey everyone,
I'm working out a rule set for my 3.5 group for a game that will use Pathfinder core for the first time. To ease the process, I'm blending PF and 3.5 content. Typically we're free to use just about any class, race, feat etc. that we want in most all rulebooks as long as we can find it, but to cut some cheese I'm making a list of available classes that I think would fit with my world, most of them slightly tweaked to fit the background.

One of the tweaks was that I reflavored monks to be the martial extension of the world's single organized religion (which is Lawful Good) in absence of Paladins. The other half is the issue.

My intention was to have a more scholarly but still devout priest-like casting class fill the other half; the church's administrators and leaders, not very combat oriented but very familiar with the power of their god. My first instinct was Cloistered Cleric (the Unearthed Arcana variant), but it seemed way overpowered for the other classes which I'd all adjusted to about tier 3 (or at least what it is in 3.5). Same problem with my second thought, which was Archivist.

So my question is this; what's a squishy divine caster from either 3.5 or PF that would feel at home among tier 3 classes, or a divine caster class that I could easily modify to work?

[Wyntonian]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is a good start, maybe Oracle from PF. Or, just do a cleric and cut heavy armor proficiency. It's not huge, but it'll make an aesthetic difference.

[Ravens_cry]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is a good start, maybe Oracle from PF. Or, just do a cleric and cut heavy armor proficiency. It's not huge, but it'll make an aesthetic difference.
There is a Cloistered Cleric Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/cloistered-cleric) that does basically the same thing.
Array your stats for squishiness as opposed to <diety of choice/>'s Beat Stick, and you should be set.

[Kavurcen]

There is a Cloistered Cleric Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/cloistered-cleric) that does basically the same thing.
Array your stats for squishiness as opposed to <diety of choice/>'s Beat Stick, and you should be set.

The archetype is looking like my choice at the moment, I'll have to build one and see how easy it is to break.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is a good start, maybe Oracle from PF. Or, just do a cleric and cut heavy armor proficiency. It's not huge, but it'll make an aesthetic difference.

Cloistered Cleric is far above Tier 3 and Oracle's entire flavor is in direct contrast to an organized religious order.

[Larpus]

Are you looking for a caster caster, as in full caster or would be a half caster be ok?

Either way, straight from the source, can't think of anything, but maybe the Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) is a nice chassis to work around with?

Or if going for a more support type, even the Bard with a different spell list, refluffed bardic music and some changes here and there should work.

[LeshLush]

I could see shugenja and divine bard both working.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could tone down Cloistered Cleric by restricting domain choices and removing all the personal-range combat buffs (Divine Favor/Power, Righteous Might), as well as replacing Turn Undead with one of many various ACFs to prevent divine/devotion feat (ab)use. The same goes for Archivist, just limit the spell choices and it should work just fine.

Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) is just as much Tier 3 as PHB Bard, you could include a Divine Savage Bard as a replacement for Druid even. This variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) could work if you don't think Bardic Music would be fitting, and those can then be replaced by some of these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) for less of a nature theme.

[Mithril Leaf]

Maybe some sort of Cloistered Favored Soul? Drop their BAB and HD while boosting their skill points and I feel like we're hitting a high tier 3 here.

[Kavurcen]

Are you looking for a caster caster, as in full caster or would be a half caster be ok?

Either way, straight from the source, can't think of anything, but maybe the Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) is a nice chassis to work around with?

Or if going for a more support type, even the Bard with a different spell list, refluffed bardic music and some changes here and there should work.
I'd like a full caster. As I mentioned, this class would represent the scholarly and mostly non-martial side of the religious order, meaning something like a cloistered cleric.


I could see shugenja and divine bard both working.

Maybe.

I found this, which seems like it would work:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest
I may change up the casting slightly and add more class abilities, but I like how it deals with the cloistered cleric idea the way that the 3.5 version does, but with the Pathfinder cleric's channel energy.
I think that'll work pretty well, but you guys got anything better?

[Randomguy]

What about Adept? The spell list is surprisingly good, and Adepts are Tier 4.

There's also Healer.

[sreservoir]

I'd like a full caster. As I mentioned, this class would represent the scholarly and mostly non-martial side of the religious order, meaning something like a cloistered cleric.

er, well, the only full-casters that are anywhere near t3 are the full-list caster casters, and they're all arcane. if you're looking for a religious-order type full-caster, you have the healer two tiers down and the ... other divine full-casters beyond the t2-3 barrier.

I mean, there's the spirit shaman, which invites debate over the value of the druid spell list without the rest of the druid's features, and which is variably placed between tiers 1 and 3, but.

so yeah, there aren't really any squishy religious full divine casters out of the box; you'll have to either do what you can by optimising healer beyond your groups usual optimisation levels, or restrain yourself with one of the higher-tier casters.

there is shugenja, though it doesn't quite feel religiousy.


I found this, which seems like it would work:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest
I may change up the casting slightly and add more class abilities, but I like how it deals with the cloistered cleric idea the way that the 3.5 version does, but with the Pathfinder cleric's channel energy.
I think that'll work pretty well, but you guys got anything better?

it's definitely t1; it's actually slightly superior to the cleric in, you know, being a tier 1 caster with its extra domain spell per day per level.

[Kavurcen]

it's definitely t1; it's actually slightly superior to the cleric in, you know, being a tier 1 caster with its extra domain spell per day per level.
Well, I have the following modifications written so far.
- Cutting the bonus knowledge domain
- Cutting the lore ability
- Dropping the channel energy dice to d6s
- Cutting armor proficiency
- Dropping the hit die to d4
- Dropping the fortitude save progression to poor
- Dropping the skills to 4 + int

In addition, due to the setting characters will be effectively restricted to the Good and Law domains, and the only spells available are those in the SRD. The characters will also be fighting a series of highly intelligent and tactically sophisticated DMPCs, so the penalties to the Priest's durability will be a serious issue and the format of the campaign allows enemies to effectively counter the PCs in a typically deus ex fashion.

I think that's enough to balance it. Any suggestions?

[sreservoir]

nope, still tier 1.

[Kavurcen]

nope, still tier 1.
Would you be so kind as to provide a more helpful answer?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would you be so kind as to provide a more helpful answer?

Divine Bard, plus various other ACFs depending on each particular church/organization, would work just fine for a T3 divine caster.

Adept, use the Bard spells/day progression but it still prepares spells and knows the entire class spell list. Add Turn/Rebuke Undead at 1st level. Give it two domains, at levels 1 and maybe 4 or 5, and +1 domain spell prepared per day at each spell level, which can also hold a Cure Wounds spell. Allow them to replace their Familiar with any of the UA familiar replacements (this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) or any of the specialist Wizard ACFs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) that replace a familiar). You'll need to pick some 6th level spells, but it's pretty much a Tier 3 primary divine caster that can contribute whatever a party needs from that role.

If you think either of those would be lacking certain spells, such as Resurrection and Greater Restoration, just use Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) to fill in the gaps.

Any base class that gets 9th level spells with an unrestricted number of spells known from an extremely broad list is going to be Tier 1. Any base class that gets 9th level spells with a limited list of spells known from a Tier 1 class spell list is going to be Tier 2. If you want a Tier 3 class, you're going to have to pick something that doesn't get access to the Cleric spell list. Edit: Or, something that doesn't get 9th level spells, such as using Bard spells/day with the Cleric spell list so it caps at 6ths.

[sreservoir]

well, the thing is, you're not actually addressing what's actually putting the cleric in tier 1, which is the actual cleric spell list, and which is broken enough just in core. in fact, it would be probably be more balanced to allow all 3.5e spells outside core, although don't cite me on that.

the same applies to all tier 1 casters with the possible exception of the druid -- anything short of going through their spell list can't really touch the crux of the problem.

[Ravens_cry]

3.5 maybe, but Pathfinder took away certain things. For example, Divine Power now grants a specific bonus rather than full BAB so if you drop to 1/2 progression, you are not full BAB even with Divine Power.
Still probably tier 1. If there is a problem, they can answer it at latest tomorrow.

[Kavurcen]

Divine Bard, plus various other ACFs depending on each particular church/organization, would work just fine for a T3 divine caster.

Adept, use the Bard spells/day progression but it still prepares spells and knows the entire class spell list. Add Turn/Rebuke Undead at 1st level. Give it two domains, at levels 1 and maybe 4 or 5, and +1 domain spell prepared per day at each spell level, which can also hold a Cure Wounds spell. Allow them to replace their Familiar with any of the UA familiar replacements (this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) or any of the specialist Wizard ACFs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) that replace a familiar). You'll need to pick some 6th level spells, but it's pretty much a Tier 3 primary divine caster that can contribute whatever a party needs from that role.

If you think either of those would be lacking certain spells, such as Resurrection and Greater Restoration, just use Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) to fill in the gaps.

Any base class that gets 9th level spells with an unrestricted number of spells known from an extremely broad list is going to be Tier 1. Any base class that gets 9th level spells with a limited list of spells known from a Tier 1 class spell list is going to be Tier 2. If you want a Tier 3 class, you're going to have to pick something that doesn't get access to the Cleric spell list. Edit: Or, something that doesn't get 9th level spells, such as using Bard spells/day with the Cleric spell list so it caps at 6ths.
Thanks for the great response.


well, the thing is, you're not actually addressing what's actually putting the cleric in tier 1, which is the actual cleric spell list, and which is broken enough just in core. in fact, it would be probably be more balanced to allow all 3.5e spells outside core, although don't cite me on that.

the same applies to all tier 1 casters with the possible exception of the druid -- anything short of going through their spell list can't really touch the crux of the problem.
Well, I was going to bring up the fact that this campaign would only go until about level 15, but I realized what a sloppy solution that is.

I think I'm going to append the Adept spell list with another four levels, and use that for Priest, then see if I can make it a bit more interesting beyond that with abilities. That's a project for another day, though.