Adamantine body + alter self

[kharmakazy]

took adamantine body at first level. If I cast alter self do I keep or lose adamantine body?

[Aegis013]

Ask your DM.
Though it seems to me that if you lose your warforged components (made of metal) you would lose access to the benefit of the feat until the spell wore off. I take that from the phrase "You retain all supernatural and spell-like qualities of your normal form except those that require a body part the new form does not have..." I'd think a metal body would fall into that category.

[kharmakazy]

Ask your DM.
Though it seems to me that if you lose your warforged components (made of metal) you would lose access to the benefit of the feat until the spell wore off. I take that from the phrase "You retain all supernatural and spell-like qualities of your normal form except those that require a body part the new form does not have..." I'd think a metal body would fall into that category.

If it were a component, I would tend to agree.


"You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. "

Feats are extraordinary iirc, but is my first level feat derived from class levels or not is the question. What about feats granted by flaws?

[Fouredged Sword]

Another rule reading that could prevent you from having it while shapeshifted.

You keep the feat, but are no longer warforged and thus do not qualify for it anymore, and thus loose the benefits.

[Curmudgeon]

Another rule reading that could prevent you from having it while shapeshifted.

You keep the feat, but are no longer warforged and thus do not qualify for it anymore, and thus loose the benefits.
That's right. Alter Self keeps your type and subtype, but you become a different race with all attendant racial benefits.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. Adamantine Body's prerequisite is Warforged (a race), not Living Construct (a subtype).

Edit: Unless you're changing your type through some means, there aren't a lot of 5 HD or less Construct choices for Alter Self. I guess you could become an Electrum Horror for the +7 NA.

[kharmakazy]

Another rule reading that could prevent you from having it while shapeshifted.

You keep the feat, but are no longer warforged and thus do not qualify for it anymore, and thus loose the benefits.

Thanks.

Now I just need to determine which feats are racial bonus feats. They seem to have marked them with a B some places, but not everywhere.


Edit: Wait, where does it say you are no longer warforged? It doesn't say anything about race.

[Curmudgeon]

Edit: Wait, where does it say you are no longer warforged? It doesn't say anything about race.

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.
...
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).
...
You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.
"Physical qualities", "new form", and repeated mention of racial benefits covers that. You're altering your form to be that of a different race, of the same type and subtype as your original race.

[kharmakazy]

That's right. Alter Self keeps your type and subtype, but you become a different race with all attendant racial benefits. Adamantine Body's prerequisite is Warforged (a race), not Living Construct (a subtype).

Edit: Unless you're changing your type through some means, there aren't a lot of 5 HD or less Construct choices for Alter Self. I guess you could become an Electrum Horror for the +7 NA.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811.0


"Physical qualities", "new form", and repeated mention of racial benefits covers that. You're altering your form to be that of a different race, of the same type and subtype as your original race.



You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.

That doesn't sound like I changed races to me. Getting racial features doesn't really equate to changing races.

[Curmudgeon]

That doesn't sound like I changed races to me. Getting racial features doesn't really equate to changing races.

You look like the new race.
You get the racial bonus feats of the new race.
You get the racial skill bonuses of the new race.
You get the physical features of the new race: claws, wings, natural armor, & c.
You lose the physical features and racial qualities of your original race.
What do you think is going on, if you're not changing your form to a new race? :smallconfused:

racial bonus

A bonus granted because of the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature. If a creature's race changes (for instance, if it dies and is reincarnated), it loses all racial bonuses it had in its previous form.

[hangedman1984]

What do you think is going on, if you're not changing your form to a new race? :smallconfused:

seems like you're mimicking the new race, not necessarily changing actual race

[Curmudgeon]

seems like you're mimicking the new race, not necessarily changing actual race
You're not only gaining the racial benefits of the new race, you're also losing the benefits of your original race. That's changing, not mimicking.

[kharmakazy]

It seems to me that race is a clearly defined thing. This spell does not claim to change my race at all.

I keep my racial ability score adjustments, and various other racial features such as darkvision, etc.

[Alleine]

I keep my racial ability score adjustments, and various other racial features such as darkvision, etc.

No, you lose racial features that are Extraordinary. Such as darkvision, etc.


You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

Emphasis added. Check monster statblocks, or orcs in particular if you like. The table clearly shows Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) as an Ex special quality. You can look through the rest of the list, and any relevant statblocks, to determine what is an Ex special ability.

[Curmudgeon]

It seems to me that race is a clearly defined thing.
It's not at all clearly defined. Things that are clearly defined are in the D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=&alpha=R), but "race" is not there.

I keep my racial ability score adjustments, and various other racial features such as darkvision, etc.
Nope; that darkvision (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_darkvision&alpha=D) doesn't stay.

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. Only if your darkvision is from class levels do you keep it. If it's from your race, as an extraordinary quality it's lost with Alter Self.

[kharmakazy]

No, you lose racial features that are Extraordinary. Such as darkvision, etc.



Emphasis added. Check monster statblocks, or orcs in particular if you like. The table clearly shows Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) as an Ex special quality. You can look through the rest of the list, and any relevant statblocks, to determine what is an Ex special ability.

The question is which feats are not derived from class levels.


It's not at all clearly defined. Things that are clearly defined are in the D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=&alpha=R), but "race" is not there.

That doesn't mean anything. Feat isn't in there either.

If the argument is that my race changes because some of my racial features change, that is a poor argument because some of my racial features don't change.


Oddly enough you lose darkvision from your race, and don't gain darkvision from your new form if it has it..

[Curmudgeon]

The question is which feats are not derived from class levels.
Racial bonus feats.
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. Feats which are specifically granted by a class (such as Track and Endurance from the Ranger class), and feats which are a function of class levels (at levels 1, 3, 6, ...) aren't racial bonus feats.

[kharmakazy]

Racial bonus feats. Feats which are specifically granted by a class (such as Track and Endurance from the Ranger class), and feats which are a function of class levels (at levels 1, 3, 6, ...) aren't racial bonus feats.

Then I keep my adamantine body feat.

The only other rules question is whether my race changes. The spell doesn't indicate that your race changes, in fact it seems to indicate that I am disguised as that race. Albeit through transmutation.

[Aegis013]

Then I keep my adamantine body feat.

The only other rules question is whether my race changes. The spell doesn't indicate that your race changes, in fact it seems to indicate that I am disguised as that race. Albeit through transmutation.

This is why I put at the start of my post "Ask your DM." It's kind of up to interpretation in this scenario.

[kharmakazy]

This is why I put at the start of my post "Ask your DM." It's kind of up to interpretation in this scenario.

That's not a useful answer. You could reply that to any question. I'm trying to determine what the rules as written say. Near as I can tell so far, it hinges on whether alter self changes your race. RAW it doesn't look like it does.

[Mari01]

That's not a useful answer. You could reply that to any question. I'm trying to determine what the rules as written say. Near as I can tell so far, it hinges on whether alter self changes your race. RAW it doesn't look like it does.

Can you take adamantine body at 1st level as anything that ISN'T a warforged?

[kharmakazy]

Can you take adamantine body at 1st level as anything that ISN'T a warforged?

Most likely not. What with the "Prerequisites:Warforged, 1st level only."

[Mari01]

Most likely not. What with the "Prerequisites:Warforged, 1st level only."

That seems like it would be likely to be under the racial abilities lost then. Although that tag of 1st level may indicate otherwise. I'm repeating what's basically been said but I'm just putting one more on the "It would be lost side".

[TuggyNE]

It sounds like you'd keep the feat, but lose access to it, since you no longer fill the prerequisites. Which is honestly probably how it should be by common sense, anyway.

[kharmakazy]

It sounds like you'd keep the feat, but lose access to it, since you no longer fill the prerequisites. Which is honestly probably how it should be by common sense, anyway.

Based on what? Where does it say that my race changes?



That seems like it would be likely to be under the racial abilities lost then. Although that tag of 1st level may indicate otherwise. I'm repeating what's basically been said but I'm just putting one more on the "It would be lost side".

It's definitely not under the racial abilities lost. It's a feat based on class levels.

[The Random NPC]

Just curious, what class are you?

[kharmakazy]

Just curious, what class are you?

Not relevant in the least.

[TuggyNE]

Based on what? Where does it say that my race changes?

Based on e.g.:


You look like the new race.
You get the racial bonus feats of the new race.
You get the racial skill bonuses of the new race.
You get the physical features of the new race: claws, wings, natural armor, & c.
You lose the physical features and racial qualities of your original race.
What do you think is going on, if you're not changing your form to a new race? :smallconfused:


I keep my racial ability score adjustments, and various other racial features such as darkvision, etc.

Given just how little of your original race is left, I don't think claiming to be your original race is really correct, and will be hard to defend.

[kharmakazy]

Given just how little of your original race is left, I don't think claiming to be your original race is really correct, and will be hard to defend.

I think defending that the race DOES change needs more justification, since it does not say that it does.

This line is especially hard to argue against.
You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.

If I AM a member of the new form's race then my disguise is way better than "effective". Disguise is completely unnecessary since I am actually one of them.

[VGLordR2]

If it looks like a Dwarf, and talks like a Dwarf, and smells like a Dwarf...

Then it's probably a Wizard using Alter Self.

[Aharon]

@kharmakazy
You want to keep the feat's benefits. Just tell your DM that you would like to keep them.

@the rules don't say it doesn't
Usually, the rules don't point out stuff the designers thought obvious. If you alter yourself from male dwarf to female elf, for example, you are no longer male, and you're no longer a dwarf.

If you basically lose everything that, in-game, defines you as a warforged, why would you think you keep the tag "warforged"?


@RAW
The closest RAW-argument I cared to find was the definition of the transmutation school:
Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing,
or condition. Representative spells include enlarge person, reduce
person, polymorph, and shapechange.

So no, unless specifically mentioned, Transmutation deals with change. And the name of the spell is "Alter Self", not "Gain lots of stuff from another monster entry, effectively disguising you as that monster, but keeping your race intact".

@Disguise:
You're quoting very selectively. The full quote is "You are effectively disguised as an
average member of the new form’s race. If
you use this spell to create a disguise, you
get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check."

The Disguise clause is in so that you can use the spell to help you disguise yourself as a specific member of that race (Ragnark, the orc king for example) - the +10 bonus helps there.

[Alleine]

If I AM a member of the new form's race then my disguise is way better than "effective". Disguise is completely unnecessary since I am actually one of them.

Except that looking like something, while a major part of a disguise, is only part of disguising as it. Imagine, if you will, a human who uses alter self to disguise as an elf. He sure looks like an elf, and most people won't know the difference. The only problems are that he doesn't really act like an elf. Not unless he has more ranks in disguise. Maybe he forgets an important elven holiday, or says something like "oh, hm, drow are elves right? That means that I am totally best friends with all drow because we are BRETHREN". Every other elf looks at him like he's a mad man because that is quite possibly the furthest thing from what is really true.


A real world example would be, say, me shapeshifting into the president. Would I look exactly like him? Totally. Would I fool a lot of people who don't pay much attention? You betcha. Would I be able to perfectly mimic everything the president does in every way simply because I look exactly like him? Not a chance. And therein lies the failure to perfectly disguise.

[kharmakazy]

@kharmakazy
So no, unless specifically mentioned, Transmutation doesn't deal with disguising you. And the name of the spell is "Alter Self", not "Gain lots of stuff from another monster entry, effectively disguising you as that monster, but keeping your race intact".

It is specifically mentioned in the spell description. They spend a great deal of time explaining exactly what does change. I have a hard time believing that RAI even is for it to change something they never mentioned being changed.

I honestly welcome any RAW evidence that points to the race changing, because there hasn't been any yet.

[Aharon]

@kharmakazy
I rephrased my post in the meantime, please answer to the edited version. Also, you ignore the rest of my post, which points out that this doesn't need RAW. Just admit to yourself you want the feat to apply already. Nobody in the thread agrees with your interpretation, may that not be a sign you are wrong?

[The Random NPC]

It is specifically mentioned in the spell description. They spend a great deal of time explaining exactly what does change. I have a hard time believing that RAI even is for it to change something they never mentioned being changed.

I honestly welcome any RAW evidence that points to the race changing, because there hasn't been any yet.

I don't believe there is, but the closest would be that you are effectively disguised as a member of the race. As in you aren't disguised but might as well be. Because you are a member of the race.
Of course, the alternate interpretation is you are effectively disguised as a member of the race, meaning your disguise is really good.

[kharmakazy]

Your new body might look and feel like the genuine article, but it's not the genuine article.

...

You're still your same old self -- just in body that has changed superficially.


Seems to support my reading. Not sure how well those articles are respected though.


@kharmakazy
I rephrased my post in the meantime, please answer to the edited version. Also, you ignore the rest of my post, which points out that this doesn't need RAW. Just admit to yourself you want the feat to apply already. Nobody in the thread agrees with your interpretation, may that not be a sign you are wrong?

The feat already applies in my game. I'm looking to see if there is a reason that it shouldn't. My DM trusts my judgement.

In response to your edits: It's not a case of "the rules don't say it doesn't" it's a matter of the rules don't say it does.

Also, "the new form's race" sounds pretty specifically like it is avoiding saying "your new race".

Edit: If you look at the example in that article it stats out a half elf in both original and alter-self'd form.



Anlion (Normal Form): Male half-elf sorcerer 4; CR 4; Medium humanoid; HD 4d4; hp 10; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 13, touch 12, flat-footed 11; Base Atk +2; Grp +1; Atk +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); Full Atk +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); SQ half-elf traits, low-light vision; AL N; SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5; Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16.

Anlion (Lizardfolk Form): Male half-elf sorcerer 4; CR 4; Medium humanoid (half-elf, reptilian); HD 4d4; hp 10; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +2; Grp +1; Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, claw) or +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); Full Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, 2 claws) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite), or +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite), or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); SQ half-elf traits, hold breath, low-light vision; AL N; SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5; Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Seems like it is more of a case of DM judgement.

Can the new body support the adamantine body? Easiest way to check is if it qualifies for the feat. If it doesn't then no, and the answer to your question is no.

But it seems to me as if you've already made up your mind about it, so happy gaming to you :smallsmile:

[kharmakazy]

see edits to above.

[Aharon]

I don't think the Rules of the Game article is reliable. For example, the half-elf shouldn't keep his racial bonuses, as they are extraordinary qualities not derived from class-levels.

[kharmakazy]

I don't think the Rules of the Game article is reliable. For example, the half-elf shouldn't keep his racial bonuses, as they are extraordinary qualities not derived from class-levels.

That is covered in the article too.

In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form.)

And from the example:

In lizardfolk form, Anlion's statistics don't change much. He gains the lizardfolk's natural armor, natural weaponry, and racial skill bonuses. He loses his low-light vision (an extraordinary special quality). He retains his half-elf racial skill bonuses. He also gains the lizardfolk's racial skill bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Swim checks, and the lizardfolk's natural ability to hold its breath. His equipment keeps functioning in his assumed form, as is usually the case with alter self.

[Spuddles]

Alter Self doesn't say it changes your race, therefore it doesn't change your race.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

If you follow Curmudgeon's extremely permissive ruling, you could extrapolate all sorts of bizarre rulings from spells, like teleporting a sword right into Tiamat's heart or something.

[Curmudgeon]

Alter Self doesn't say it changes your race, therefore it doesn't change your race.

Why is this so hard to grasp?
I believe the spell does say so, just using roundabout language.

If you follow Curmudgeon's extremely permissive ruling ... I do believe you're the first person to ever describe my reading of any spell as "extremely permissive". After Alter Self you're going to get treated as a form of one race, not two (which would be the "extremely permissive" ruling). The question is simply which race.

[kharmakazy]

I believe the spell does say so, just using roundabout language.
I do believe you're the first person to ever describe my reading of any spell as "extremely permissive". After Alter Self you're going to get treated as a form of one race, not two (which would be the "extremely permissive" ruling). The question is simply which race.

Yeah, I don't see anything that supports that reading. You gain a bunch of stuff. That's what spells do. You also keep a bunch of stuff from your original form, and you DON'T get 90% of the things from the new form. Changing a few of your racial features does not equate in anyway to changing the race.

You keep your race's: Ability score adjustments, BAB (which can come from racial HD), save bonuses, supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, spells, etc.

You only gain a few things from the new form, and none of them come even close to being equal to or greater than the things you keep.

If a dragon decides to cast alter self and turn into a Crested Felldrake, it still has way more similarity to a dragon than a crested felldrake.

If an efreeti alter selfs into a tiefling, guess what? He's still granting wishes. And by your ruling, he can grant himself those wishes, since he's not a genie anymore.

[Spuddles]

I believe the spell does say so, just using roundabout language.

But why does it not come out and say it? The line about disguise seems particularly telling that, despite the changes in ex abilities, you maintain your original race.


I do believe you're the first person to ever describe my reading of any spell as "extremely permissive". After Alter Self you're going to get treated as a form of one race, not two (which would be the "extremely permissive" ruling). The question is simply which race.

I find that the "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." assumption very permissive. That sort of reading allows kobolds to count as true dragons, for instance.

[Aharon]

Skip is just plain wrong when he writes


In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form.

It is his houserule. Nowhere in the spell does it say this is the case. It just happens to be a houserule that favors your interpretation. It's not RAW just because one of the designers said it.

[kharmakazy]

Skip is just plain wrong when he writes



It is his houserule. Nowhere in the spell does it say this is the case. It just happens to be a houserule that favors your interpretation. It's not RAW just because one of the designers said it.

That passage is not relevant to the question at hand, honestly. It's not a racial feat. It's a feat with a prerequisite race.

[Aharon]

It's relevant to the question wether you should base your reasoning on his article. You dug it up to support the idea that you keep your race. I showed that the article is not just explaining RAW, but contains Skip's interpretation, so you can't be sure wether the part where he says the half-elf keeps his race is interpretation/houserule or an explanation of the RAW.

BTW, most rules of the game articles work like that. They contain - often reasonable - rules on how to handle stuff that isn't well-defined elsewhere. However, it was, to my knowledge, never made RAW (for example by including the content in the Rules Compendium), and given the fact that it only reaches a minority of the players by virtue of being exclusively online, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Curmudgeon]

But why does it not come out and say it? The line about disguise seems particularly telling that, despite the changes in ex abilities, you maintain your original race.
Where are you getting that "original race" idea from?
You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. When you Alter Form, you become disguised as an average member of that race: not at the extreme of tallest/shortest/fattest/thinnest or whichever best matches your original race. This passage reinforces the idea that you're indeed changing to the new race.

[kharmakazy]

At this point it seems pretty well defined. If my race changes I lose the feat that requires that race. Nothing anywhere suggests that it even might change my race and an officialish source came to the same conclusion.



Where are you getting that "original race" idea from? When you Alter Form, you become disguised as an average member of that race: not at the extreme of tallest/shortest/fattest/thinnest or whichever best matches your original race. This passage reinforces the idea that you're indeed changing to the new race.

No, it really doesn't man. "your new form's race" specifically means it's not your race, it's the race of the form you are in.


given the fact that it only reaches a minority of the players by virtue of being exclusively online, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not sure how you figure a minority of players has the internet... I would estimate that number to be well over %70 but probably closer to %90.

I'd close the thread if I knew how.

[Aharon]

{{scrubbed}}

[kharmakazy]

{{scrubbed}}

I actually was hoping it was false. Thanks for playing though.

You have not presented a single valid argument for your opinion. Do you gain SOME racial features? Yes. Do you keep SOME racial features? Yes. You keep the best racial features actually.

How does changing SOME of your racial features equate to meaning that your race changes?

[Spuddles]

How does changing SOME of your racial features equate to meaning that your race changes?

I have no idea.

[Kyberwulf]

Normally I would agree with you. However, Alter Self specificly states you keep all AB scores, Class and Level, Hp, Aligment, Base attack Bonus, and Base Saves, supernatural and spell-like abilities, Special attacks and Qualities of your natural form. EXCEPT for those REQUIRING a body part that the new form does not have. (Which having metal for skin quilfies.)
Furthermore,
The last Paragraph even goes into saying that when the change occurs, your equipment (which the Adamantine Body is suppose to represent Armor, as it takes up that slot) Molds into your body and becomes nonfunctional. Its still there, you still have spended feat slot, but its nonfunctional.

[Rubik]

loose the benefits.Yes! Unleash the benefits on your foes! Fly my pretty, fly!

[kharmakazy]

Normally I would agree with you. However, Alter Self specificly states you keep all AB scores, Class and Level, Hp, Aligment, Base attack Bonus, and Base Saves, supernatural and spell-like abilities, Special attacks and Qualities of your natural form. EXCEPT for those REQUIRING a body part that the new form does not have. (Which having metal for skin quilfies.)
Furthermore,
The last Paragraph even goes into saying that when the change occurs, your equipment (which the Adamantine Body is suppose to represent Armor, as it takes up that slot) Molds into your body and becomes nonfunctional. Its still there, you still have spended feat slot, but its nonfunctional.

It represents armor, but it is not armor. It is a feat that gives me an armor bonus.

[DeusMortuusEst]

It represents armor, but it is not armor. It is a feat that gives me an armor bonus.

Keyed to a racial feature you loose when changing to a different shape, unless that shape too can get that particular feat.

[Curmudgeon]

It represents armor, but it is not armor. It is a feat that gives me an armor bonus.
That's not quite right. Adamantine Body gives you an increase in armor bonus based on your existing Warforged +2 armor bonus from composite plating. This increase is through altered crafting procedures at character creation.
At the cost of mobility, a warforged character's body can be crafted with a layer of adamantine that provides formidable protective armor and some damage reduction.

[Baron Corm]

Keyed to a racial feature you loose when changing to a different shape, unless that shape too can get that particular feat.

Yeah, if nothing else, you're losing Composite Plating, which Adamantine Body modifies. If it has nothing to modify, it's doing nothing. It's not an added armor bonus, it's a change to an existing armor bonus, which is going away.

Though I'd say most people would agree Alter Self changes your race anyway, especially since the spell is called Alter (change) Self, not Disguise Self, which is something different, and the alterations surely make you more than 50% like the new race than the old one, regardless of any small things you might keep. But that's not even relevant to the question, because of the above.

Edit: After actually reading the spell, and noticing how much stuff is kept, I'd be inclined to say that your race is neither of the two races in question. Mostly the bit about keeping your subtype made me think of a fire elemental using it, it would always look like a fire elemental. Googling brought me a link to Brilliant Gameologists which pretty much proved it by example: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6002.0

For those that don't want to click, there's an example wizard using alter self who has the same race before and after. Still not relevant to this question, because you lose Composite Plating.

Edit 2: Although, that example wizard changed its subtype, which I believe is wrong. So the writer of that article might not be so great with the rules himself. I'm going to stay in the camp of, you become a combination of two different races, and the abilities you can use depend on what you've gained or lost with the spell. Because your mind hasn't changed, your race for the purpose of feats and prestige class qualification should remain the same, if you can still physically perform whatever is required.

[LadyLexi]

I'd argue your race does not change, that you wouldn't lose say Prestige classes for casting alter self.
From the srd:

Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form.

Its not immediately clear but I would argue that it seems strange that an elf would lose access to Arcane Archer from this spell, or a dwarf from runecaster.

I'd still argue that without a metal body however the feat doesn't work with the new form.

[kharmakazy]

That's not quite right. Adamantine Body gives you an increase in armor bonus based on your existing Warforged +2 armor bonus from composite plating. This increase is through altered crafting procedures at character creation.

The feat doesn't reference composite plating at all. Mechanically it increases armor bonus to +8 regardless of what it was to begin with. Based on flavor text it acts like equipment, but a feat is not equipment. You seem to have a problem interpreting flavor text as if it were rules.




I'd still argue that without a metal body however the feat doesn't work with the new form.

While not mechanically relevant, most of the options for alter self have metal bodies.

[Kyberwulf]

Purhaps it would help to know WHAT race you where altering your Warforge into.

[Arbitrarious]

I'd argue your race does not change, that you wouldn't lose say Prestige classes for casting alter self.
From the srd:

Its not immediately clear but I would argue that it seems strange that an elf would lose access to Arcane Archer from this spell, or a dwarf from runecaster.

I'd still argue that without a metal body however the feat doesn't work with the new form.

That's the way I see it as well. Somehow I don't think Alter Self let's me bypass making UMD checks for race restricted items.

[Baron Corm]

The feat doesn't reference composite plating at all. Mechanically it increases armor bonus to +8 regardless of what it was to begin with. Based on flavor text it acts like equipment, but a feat is not equipment. You seem to have a problem interpreting flavor text as if it were rules.

"Your armor bonus is increased to +8"
"Normal: Without this feat, your warforged character has an armor bonus of +2"

References Composite Plating pretty clearly to me. Without the Normal section, you're not qualifying for this.

[Kyberwulf]

It doesn't matter if it's armor or not. Since no other Creatures of Composite plating as part of their abilites, that aspect would be rendered nonfunctional. The feat would still be there, but it's effect would be useless.

[Salanmander]

As far as I can tell there is one possible RAW interpretation that would make adamantine body not give you armor. Most creatures have a natural armor bonus of +0, but I think they just /don't have/ an armor bonus (supported by composite plating saying it "provides a +2 armor bonus", as opposed to barkskin saying it provides a "bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus").

Since adamantine body says it increases your armor bonus to +8, if you simply do not have an armor bonus, it would be unable to do anything to your armor bonus, and that part would have no effect. The other parts of the feat (DR, land speed reduction, etc.) would still have their normal effects.

Now, I'm not convinced that's actually the correct RAW interpretation of that, because a spell or feat referencing something that doesn't exist is a rare occurrence, and I'm not sure what the correct way to go on it is.



Also, there are several very slightly off-RAW things that would prevent it from working at all. For example, the warforged will lose composite plating, and adamantine body is really a modification of that ability. It is effectively armor, which alter self removes. etc. None of these are strictly true via RAW, but are at least as legitimate as keeping skill points because they're "mind based", not "body based".

If you play in such a way that you ignore those sorts of rulings, have fun if you ever start drowning.


Edit: I think I've just decided to houserule that adamantine body requires and replaces composite plating, not warforged race. Especially because RAW it's also legal to take adamantine body AND mithral body if you take a flaw, and I have NO idea WTF happens then.

[cagemarrow]

When I played a warforged artificer we determined that Alter Self does not allow you to keep Adamantine Body, but if you shift into another form that gets it as a bonus feat then you'd get it back. Such as Warforged Charger. Also remember that shifting into a non warforged form allows you to benefit from armor again, and most of the Construct types still get natural armor as well which would stack.

Warforged have one of the most awesome form lists available. Here's the forms I determined are allowable for a standard sized warforged. Animated Objects lets you transform into any object of small, medium, or large size so now you're effectively a transformer based on the number of times per day you can change. The Slinger Scorpion has a massive +15 to NA but you lose the ability to speak or use somatic components. The Guardgoyle can fly with good maneuverability but also cannot speak. Astral Constructs are fun, but since the add-ons are considered Extraordinary Abilities you don't get access to their movement modes.

HD|Name|Source|Cast|NA|Size|Movement|| Attack, Skills, Feats
1|Tatterdemanimal|MM2|S, V?|0|small|40 ft, 40 ft fly (clumsy)||
1|Clockroach|MM4|S|0|small| 30 ft, burrow 15 ft, climb 15 ft|| 2 Pincers (1d4), +8 climb, can always take 10
1|Astral Construct I|EPH|S, V|+5|small|30 ft||
1|Animated Object, Small|SRD|v,s|+2|small|30 ft, 40 ft legs, 50 ft multiple legs, 70 ft wheels, Sheet like can Fly 15ft (poor)|| Slam 1d4
1|Warforged Scout|MM3|S,V|+1|small|20ft||
1|Slinger Scorpion|MMV|no|+15|small|20ft|| Claw Blade (2d8), Hide +8
2|Animated Object, Medium|SRD|v,s|+4|medium|30 ft, 40 ft legs, 50 ft multiple legs, 70 ft wheels, Sheet like can Fly 15ft (poor)|| Slam 1d6
2|Astral Construct II|EPH|S, V|+6|medium|40 ft||
2|Iron Cobra|FF|no|+3|Medium| 30ft|| +10 Hide & Move Silently| Bite (1d6) + Poison (3 bites, Fort DC 14 1d4/1d4 Str)
2|Guardgoyle|WD|s|+5|Small|20ft, Fly 50ft (good)|| Bite (1d4 ) + Poison Injury or Contact (2 bites, Fort DC 11 + Cha 1d4/1d4 Con), 2 claws (1d3), Weapon Finesse
2|Alchemy Beetle|SoX|No|+4|Small|40ft|| Alchemy bite (1d3 + 1d6 Energy Acid, Fire, Cold, or Elec), Alchemical Blast DC 11 Ref (3d6 Energy) 10ft radius when reduced to 0 HP
2|Packmate|MoE|no|+4|small|30ft|| Slam (1d3)
2|Persistent Harrier|MoE|S,V|+4|small|40ft|| Spikes (1d6), +1d6 Sneak Attack, Jump +7, Tumble +7
2|Maug|FF|S,V|+7|large|50ft (can't run)|| Slam (1d8), Alertness
2|Necrophidius|FF|No|+5|medium|30ft, Climb 10ft|| Bite (1d6), Sneak Attack +2d6, +8 Hide, +8 Move Silently, +8 Climb and can take 10 on Climb
3|Common Raggamoffyn|MM2|S, V?|+5 medium|30 ft, 30 ft fly (clumsy)||
3|Astral Construct III|EPH|S, V|+8 medium|40 ft||
3|Pulverizer|MM2|S, V?|+11|medium 40 ft|| 2 Slams (1d6)
4|Animated Object, Large|SRD|v,s|+5|large|20 ft, 30 ft legs, 40 ft multiple legs, 60 ft wheels, Sheet like can Fly 10ft (poor)|| Slam 1d8
4|Electrum Horror|MM2|S, V|+7|small|30 ft||
4|Warforged Charger|MM3|S,V|+8|large|30ft|| 2 Slams (1d10), Admantine Body (+8 AC, DR 2/admantine), Powerful Charge
5|Astral Construct IV|EPH|S, V|+10|medium|40 ft|| Fly 40ft (average) or Swim 60ft, Slam (1d6)
5|Dread Guard|MM2|S|0|medium|20 ft (cant run)||
5|Hammerer|MM2|S|+11|medium|20 ft|| Slam (2d8)
5|Iron Defender|ECS|No|+4|small|50ft|| Bite (1d6)

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Except that looking like something, while a major part of a disguise, is only part of disguising as it. Imagine, if you will, a human who uses alter self to disguise as an elf. He sure looks like an elf, and most people won't know the difference. The only problems are that he doesn't really act like an elf. Not unless he has more ranks in disguise. Maybe he forgets an important elven holiday, or says something like "oh, hm, drow are elves right? That means that I am totally best friends with all drow because we are BRETHREN". Every other elf looks at him like he's a mad man because that is quite possibly the furthest thing from what is really true

Yes, it could go bad really easily. If the guy enters a tavern and says "ok, where do I sleep?" he already ruined it.

[Denamort]

First, lets get a few things out of the way. Alter Self doesn't change your race. It's not stated anyware that it does (only that you lose some benefits from it). Furthemore, since your race determines your type and sub-type, and those don't change, I say you race remains the same. You may look like a dwarf, you may smell like a dwarf, you may even drink like a dwarf, but you still talk, move and frolic like an elf. Also, as Lady Lexi pointed out, you would lose the benefits of Prestige Classes with a racial requierment like the Arcane Archer. You an argue that you change race, but seeing how you still keep many characteristics of your race and RAW doesn't state it directly, I would say it doesn't change.
In addition, Alter Self let's you keep Feats derived from class levels, so the character can keep the Feat and it still qualifies for it.
However, this paragraph:

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
states that you lose all benefits related to body parts. Since Adamantine Body modifies Composite Plating, as stated in the "Nomal" entry of the feat, you need Composite Plating to benefit from Adamantine Body, in the same way that, althoug you don't need two apendages to qualify for Two-Weapon Figthing, you need them to benefit from the feat.
The idea that Amadantine Body overwrites Composite Plating is reinforced by the wording "Your Armor Bonus increasesto +8", showing that you cannot benefit from the +2 natural of a Warforged and the +8 of Admantine Body, but rather must choose one or the other. And the flavor text explicitly says so. You have argue that the flavor text doesn't affect the mechanics, but I disaggre. The only way to determine when a characteristic depend on a body part in with the falvor text. Without the falvor text, the only thing the rules "say" about a Dragon's breath is that its a Xft. Cone/Line that deals XdY of damage. Arguing that Adamantine Body doesn't dpeend of the Composite Plating racial trait is like arguing that, altough it's called a "Breath Weapon", it never stats the Dragon needs to have a mouth to use it.
The feat modifies an existing racial characteristic (Composite Plating), that is lost when you use the spell, so you no longer benefit from it.

Edit: Obviously, if your new form has Composite Plating oris elegible for the feat (such as the other Warforged variants in Eberron books), you benefit from the feat.

[VanBuren]

You have not presented a single valid argument for your opinion.

Gah! No, no. The arguments are valid, you just think they have false premises.


Anyway, that whole argument is a red herring. Adamantine Body pretty clearly modifies Composite Plating, so without the latter you would lose the former.

[kharmakazy]

First, lets get a few things out of the way. Alter Self doesn't change your race. It's not stated anyware that it does (only that you lose some benefits from it). Furthemore, since your race determines your type and sub-type, and those don't change, I say you race remains the same. You may look like a dwarf, you may smell like a dwarf, you may even drink like a dwarf, but you still talk, move and frolic like an elf. Also, as Lady Lexi pointed out, you would lose the benefits of Prestige Classes with a racial requierment like the Arcane Archer. You an argue that you change race, but seeing how you still keep many characteristics of your race and RAW doesn't state it directly, I would say it doesn't change.
In addition, Alter Self let's you keep Feats derived from class levels, so the character can keep the Feat and it still qualifies for it.
However, this paragraph:

states that you lose all benefits related to body parts. Since Adamantine Body modifies Composite Plating, as stated in the "Nomal" entry of the feat, you need Composite Plating to benefit from Adamantine Body, in the same way that, althoug you don't need two apendages to qualify for Two-Weapon Figthing, you need them to benefit from the feat.
The idea that Amadantine Body overwrites Composite Plating is reinforced by the wording "Your Armor Bonus increasesto +8", showing that you cannot benefit from the +2 natural of a Warforged and the +8 of Admantine Body, but rather must choose one or the other. And the flavor text explicitly says so. You have argue that the flavor text doesn't affect the mechanics, but I disaggre. The only way to determine when a characteristic depend on a body part in with the falvor text. Without the falvor text, the only thing the rules "say" about a Dragon's breath is that its a Xft. Cone/Line that deals XdY of damage. Arguing that Adamantine Body doesn't dpeend of the Composite Plating racial trait is like arguing that, altough it's called a "Breath Weapon", it never stats the Dragon needs to have a mouth to use it.
The feat modifies an existing racial characteristic (Composite Plating), that is lost when you use the spell, so you no longer benefit from it.

Edit: Obviously, if your new form has Composite Plating oris elegible for the feat (such as the other Warforged variants in Eberron books), you benefit from the feat.

That quote doesn't seem to mean what you think it does.

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have Which body part am I missing? A torso?

Also:


Breath Weapon

A creature attacking with a breath weapon is actually expelling something from its mouth


Gah! No, no. The arguments are valid, you just think they have false premises.


Anyway, that whole argument is a red herring. Adamantine Body pretty clearly modifies Composite Plating, so without the latter you would lose the former.

Nowhere anywhere that I have seen does the text that explains what happens without the feat function as a prerequisite. If it were a prerequisite it would be on the line marked "prerequisite".

[VanBuren]

Nowhere anywhere that I have seen does the text that explains what happens without the feat function as a prerequisite. If it were a prerequisite it would be on the line marked "prerequisite".

"Your armor bonus is increased to +8"
"Normal: Without this feat, your warforged character has an armor bonus of +2"

Seems pretty clear.

[kharmakazy]

"Your armor bonus is increased to +8"
"Normal: Without this feat, your warforged character has an armor bonus of +2"

Seems pretty clear.

How does that seem clear to you? Normally, meaning without the feat, that is what happens. I have the feat. That doesn't happen.

[dextercorvia]

How does that seem clear to you? Normally, meaning without the feat, that is what happens. I have the feat. That doesn't happen.

How about this:


At the cost of mobility, your warforged body can be
crafted with a layer of adamantine that provides formidable
protective armor and some damage reduction.

You can keep calling it flavor text if you want to. But the plating doesn't require a body part -- it is a body part.

[kharmakazy]

How about this:



You can keep calling it flavor text if you want to. But the plating doesn't require a body part -- it is a body part.

It's not a body part, it is my body. I still have a body. Did I lose the appropriate body part? No, I still have a body. Based on your flavor text anyhow.

[dextercorvia]

It's not a body part, it is my body. I still have a body. Did I lose the appropriate body part? No, I still have a body. Based on your flavor text anyhow.

Do you still have a body that was forged with adamantine plating?

Edit: And it isn't your entire body. It is part of your body --- if only we had a simple two word phrase that meant part of a body....

[VanBuren]

How does that seem clear to you? Normally, meaning without the feat, that is what happens. I have the feat. That doesn't happen.

Right, because it modifies that effect. It causes that +2 to be a +8. If you take away the thing that gives the +2, then there's nothing for the feat to modify.

[kharmakazy]

Do you still have a body that was forged with adamantine plating?

Ah, I see the mistake you are making. You think my body becomes made of some other thing. It doesn't. If it did, casting alter self to a large obdurium animated statue would be a great thing to do. Since my body would then be made of a ridiculous amount of a metal harder than adamantine. Do I get hardness 30 for alter selfing into that shape? No. Why? Because my body has just been shaped to look like something else. My body is still made of exactly the same thing.


Right, because it modifies that effect. It causes that +2 to be a +8. If you take away the thing that gives the +2, then there's nothing for the feat to modify.

I don't accept your premise that this makes it a prerequisite. But lets say for the sake of argument you are right. +0 is a number. Where does it say that I can't increase +0 to +8. If it said "your armor bonus from composite plating increases to +8" I might lend more credence to this line of reasoning. The rules written there don't call on composite plating, nor is it a prerequisite, nor has it been shown that I lose it by casting alter self.

[dextercorvia]

Ah, I see the mistake you are making. You think my body becomes made of some other thing. It doesn't. If it did, casting alter self to a large obdurium animated statue would be a great thing to do. Since my body would then be made of a ridiculous amount of a metal harder than adamantine. Do I get hardness for alter selfing into that shape? No. Why? Because my body has just been shaped to look like something else. My body is still made of exactly the same thing.

That is the mistake you are making. Your body becomes that of what you are shaping into. You actually would gain the hardness since it is an extraordinary special quality derived from the physical form. Of course, you'll have to get a DM to assign a hardness to obdurium (unless I missed it somewhere).

[kharmakazy]

That is the mistake you are making. Your body becomes that of what you are shaping into. You actually would gain the hardness since it is an extraordinary special quality derived from the physical form. Of course, you'll have to get a DM to assign a hardness to obdurium (unless I missed it somewhere).

You specifically would not.


You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities
Hardness is not listed there.

[VanBuren]

I don't accept your premise that this makes it a prerequisite. But lets say for the sake of argument you are right. +0 is a number. Where does it say that I can't increase +0 to +8. If it said "your armor bonus from composite plating increases to +8" I might lend more credence to this line of reasoning. The rules written there don't call on composite plating, nor is it a prerequisite, nor has it been shown that I lose it by casting alter self.

Then why does it say that without the feat, you have a bonus of +2? If Composite Plating wasn't tied to this feat, why would they say that?

The feat doesn't modify the +0 because it specifically modifies the +2 bonus.

[dextercorvia]

You specifically would not.

Hardness is not listed there.



Physical qualities include

It is not an exhaustive list.

[kharmakazy]

It is not an exhaustive list.

It IS an exhaustive list. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above...

Is it not listed above? You don't get it. It literally says that if it isn't listed, you can't have it.

[Spuddles]

Denamort-
Type and race are actually unrelated. You keep your race despite type changes. Drgaonwrought kobolds are still kobolds, despite having the dragon type. Necropolitan elves are still elves, despite having the undead type.

[Baron Corm]

It's not a body part, it is my body. I still have a body. Did I lose the appropriate body part? No, I still have a body. Based on your flavor text anyhow.

It's a layer of adamantine, not your whole body. Composite Plating is plating on top of your body which functions as armor does. It's an (Ex) ability and so disappears when you alter yourself. If you choose to interpret it differently, because the feats' modification of Composite Plating is, admittedly, not explicitly stated, even though it is clear and obvious to anyone who cares about the designer's intention and flavor of the abilities, that is up to you.

[dascarletm]

If something isn't specifically said in the rules you got to determine if it would work via deduction!

Lets think about the spell.

If I am changing to gain the form of a troglodyte to gain its NA bonus what does that mean? My skin has changed into scales, like a troglodytes, and is tougher to pierce with weapons. This is what is happening, my skin changed, my other body parts changed too. Am I a human? Am I a troglodyte? As far as what I look like, then I am a troglodyte, thus the +10 to disguise.

Your warforged wizard, or artificer or class with UMD, is changing into another construct type, lets say a..... Homunculus (just roll with it). You take on its form, its form is that of clay, ashes...etc. not adamantine. It also doesn't have composite plating, why should you? I don't think you'd be a very convincing Homunculus if you had weird plating, nor would you be of its form. The homunculus wouldn't just have a adamantine body, because they can't.

Does it make sense? Lets say for argument you turn into a weird hot-air-balloon type construct. How would you float with this adamantine armor? Your form is now that of canvas, wicker, and all else.

[kharmakazy]

It's a layer of adamantine, not your whole body. Composite Plating is plating on top of your body which functions as armor does. It's an (Ex) ability and so disappears when you alter yourself. If you choose to interpret it differently, because the feats' modification of Composite Plating is, admittedly, not explicitly stated, even though it is clear and obvious to anyone who cares about the designer's intention and flavor of the abilities, that is up to you.

This is the closest contender right now. Not because of the "functions as armor does" thing, because it really doesn't.

Can we show somehow by raw that not having composite plating makes the adamantine body feat nonfunctional?

Also, I am having difficulty finding what "special attacks and qualities of your normal form" is referring to. What are special qualities? It's not in the glossary and is referenced by seemingly random abilities in the srd.





Does it make sense? Lets say for argument you turn into a weird hot-air-balloon type construct. How would you float with this adamantine armor? Your form is now that of canvas, wicker, and all else.

Does it make sense, while often useful does not tell me what the rules actually say.

As per your example though, as above. I alter self into a large animated obdurium statue. I'm a statue made of obdurium. Am I? Do I have hardness 30? No. There are specific things that are allowed, and specific things that are not allowed. It's a pretty exhaustive list. If your argument is that I lose adamantine body because I am no longer made of adamantine, then by that same logic I should have hardness 30.

[Denamort]

Denamort-
Type and race are actually unrelated. You keep your race despite type changes. Drgaonwrought kobolds are still kobolds, despite having the dragon type. Necropolitan elves are still elves, despite having the undead type.

I know they are not directly related. I just pointed out that, since your race detrmines your type (except in the cases you noted) AND there is no mention of race changing (as well as the fact that you would stops being eleigle for PrC you already have, an so on) that you can infer that race doesn't change.

Ok, I admit defeat. I check and you don't gain an Animated Object Hardness if you use Alter self. I think the main problem is that alter self is made with a living creature in mind.
Still, I find it ridiculous to allow that judgment. If you allow it for alter self you have to allow it for Polymorph (since they use the same ruling), and if you were to be polymorphed into a wolf or something like that you would be an adamantine wolf. I still believe that Adamantine Body is tied to Plating as stated by both the descriptive text and the Normal entry of the feat. Every other feat with a Normal entry in it requieres you to be able to do the "Normal" thing in the first place to benefit from the feat, even if it's not a perrequisite from the feat. You must be able to attack with to weapons to benefit from two-weapon figthing, you must be able to use AoO to benefit from Combat Reflexes, and so on.

[kharmakazy]

Every other feat with a Normal entry in it requieres you to be able to do the "Normal" thing in the first place to benefit from the feat, even if it's not a perrequisite from the feat. You must be able to attack with to weapons to benefit from two-weapon figthing, you must be able to use AoO to benefit from Combat Reflexes, and so on.

According to what? If you can tell me where it says this it might help move things along.



Blind-Fight [General]

Normal

Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.

So if I cast see invis, and retain my dex bonus vs an invisible attacker I no longer qualify for blind fight?

[dascarletm]

Does it make sense, while often useful does not tell me what the rules actually say.

As per your example though, as above. I alter self into a large animated obdurium statue. I'm a statue made of obdurium. Am I? Do I have hardness 30? No. There are specific things that are allowed, and specific things that are not allowed. It's a pretty exhaustive list. If your argument is that I lose adamantine body because I am no longer made of adamantine, then by that same logic I should have hardness 30.

Well first, that isn't an acceptable form for alter self, maybe polymorph any object. Second lets say it was an obdurium golem thing with 5HD or less. That creature from being made of obdurium would gain a NA bonus to their armor class to reflect their tough body, and thus yes you would get that. But you wouldn't have the adamantine body, which would be weaker.

We can get all ruleslawyery about it, but if you gotta result to that...

You have to make judgement calls less we want to play a everyoneisblindbecauseofthespotrules type of game.

Form: the physical qualities of the object.
Would you not agree that your built in plating is part of your form?

EDIT: noticed the animated part of that.... interesting food for thought

[kharmakazy]

Well first, that isn't an acceptable form for alter self, maybe polymorph any object. Second lets say it was an obdurium golem thing with 5HD or less. That creature from being made of obdurium would gain a NA bonus to their armor class to reflect their tough body, and thus yes you would get that. But you wouldn't have the adamantine body, which would be weaker.

We can get all ruleslawyery about it, but if you gotta result to that...

You have to make judgement calls less we want to play a everyoneisblindbecauseofthespotrules type of game.

Form: the physical qualities of the object.
Would you not agree that your built in plating is part of your form?




Animated Object, Large 4HD
A perfectly valid alter self form for a warforged.

Of course it all comes down to judgement in the end. That isn't really the point in this case though. I am trying to determine what happens by the rules as written. I have about 40 different opinions mostly contradicting each other, and very few of them have much besides reasoning to back up their claim. Reasoning is great. I'm not looking for reasoning though.

Honestly I wish the thread would have been closed a few pages ago since it's just going around in circles now.

[dascarletm]

Sorry to break it to you...

A perfectly valid alter self form for a warforged.

Edit was inb4 reply! HA Gotcha! :smalltongue:

but really I'd say its more that your new form doesn't have built-in armor. The spell was written before creatures with built in armor, thus doesn't talk about it. You just gotta rule if your new form has some sort of built in armor, which is where the bonus comes from.

[Urpriest]

Also, I am having difficulty finding what "special attacks and qualities of your normal form" is referring to. What are special qualities? It's not in the glossary and is referenced by seemingly random abilities in the srd.



Special Attacks and Special Qualities are the things listed under Special Attacks and Special Qualities in monster statblocks. What else would they be?

[Denamort]

I guess you are right, by RAW you can still benefit from Adamantine Body. Nowhere it's stated that you must have Plating to use Adamantine Body and since the perrequiste is "Warforged", instead of "Composite Plating racial trait" you are right.
However, how do you justify not getting the +2 extra armor a Warforged naturaly has. The only diference between the two characteristics is that ones a Feat and e other a racil trait, two conept that I believe Wizard and Sorcerers in whatever setting you are playing are not aware of. How does Alter Self knows that Adamantine Body is a Feat and not a racial trait, do you really want to use such a contribe rulling? As I said before, you would turn into an Adamantine Wolf who somehow still gets a +10 bonus to look like a wolf, you would turn into an Adamantine Golem reinforced with Adamantine and any other number of ridiculous scenarios.

[kharmakazy]

Edit was inb4 reply! HA Gotcha! :smalltongue:

but really I'd say its more that your new form doesn't have built-in armor. The spell was written before creatures with built in armor, thus doesn't talk about it. You just gotta rule if your new form has some sort of built in armor, which is where the bonus comes from.

That's a perfectly reasonable way to rule it. Probably how I would. I was hoping the rules themselves would answer the question, definitely. It seems that they do, but not in a way that I care for. I technically get to keep the plating because adamantine body has no prerequisite of composite plating, even though it probably should.

The only other way I can think off the top of my head to lose the composite plating and still be a warforged is probably dragonborn warforged. But they can still technically take the feats since there is no prereq.

[dextercorvia]

page glitch... and

Alter Self was written at a time when you couldn't alter self into an animated object. If you want to be pedantic about RAW, Adamantine Body is a feat, which means it is an extraordinary special ability (it doesn't specify otherwise). It was also not derived from class levels (unless you picked up as a fighter bonus feat, or similar). Therefore you do not keep it.

Of course, down this road lies the madness that Alter Self removes (nearly) all of your feats. But if you want to stick to RAW -- there you go.

[kharmakazy]

page glitch... and

Alter Self was written at a time when you couldn't alter self into an animated object. If you want to be pedantic about RAW, Adamantine Body is a feat, which means it is an extraordinary special ability (it doesn't specify otherwise). It was also not derived from class levels (unless you picked up as a fighter bonus feat, or similar). Therefore you do not keep it.

Of course, down this road lies the madness that Alter Self removes (nearly) all of your feats. But if you want to stick to RAW -- there you go.

feats at 1st 3rd etc are derived from class levels.

[Denamort]

That's a perfectly reasonable way to rule it. Probably how I would. I was hoping the rules themselves would answer the question, definitely. It seems that they do, but not in a way that I care for. I technically get to keep the plating because adamantine body has no prerequisite of composite plating, even though it probably should.

The only other way I can think off the top of my head to lose the composite plating and still be a warforged is probably dragonborn warforged. But they can still technically take the feats since there is no prereq.


You should have started by saying this. I assume (as many others probably did) that you were just trying to justify the ruling in order to get an advantage from the rules and try to discuss yourmpoint of view from that position. So, I apologise. you are right, by RAW alone you would keep Adamantine Body if you where under the effectnof Alter Self.

[The Random NPC]

feats at 1st 3rd etc are derived from class levels.

Well, you don't need class levels to get them... but I don't know if hit dice count as a racial class or something.

[Kyberwulf]

Yes, you would keep the feet. It would just become nonfunctional.
Warforge can survive without the armor, as in you can take the feat Unarmored Body, (which by the way, says you take off the normal layer of ARMOR on the body) which says the armor isnt an neccesary part of their body.

[kharmakazy]

Yes, you would keep the feet. It would just become nonfunctional.
Warforge can survive without the armor, as in you can take the feat Unarmored Body, (which by the way, says you take off the normal layer of ARMOR on the body) which says the armor isnt an neccesary part of their body.


This is just nonsensical and not based on any actual rules anywhere. I'll just cut it off and put it back on later. No big.

Since there doesn't seem to be an option to close threads, I'm just going to stop responding rather that try and rebut every new opinion.

[dextercorvia]

feats at 1st 3rd etc are derived from class levels.

Actually they are derived from character level (including RHD), regardless of what class is chosen.

[Kyberwulf]

You know, we all agree with you, except in the instant of Adamantine Body and Alter Self. It becomes Nonfuntional.

[Spuddles]

Actually they are derived from character level (including RHD), regardless of what class is chosen.

Which is a different thing than a racial feat, like an elf's proficiency with a longbow.


You know, we all agree with you, except in the instant of Adamantine Body and Alter Self. It becomes Nonfuntional.

Perhaps it should become nonfunctional, but there's no RAW argument against it. A strong RAI, sure. But RAW? I don't see it.

[Kyberwulf]

Its Raw, cause no other creature has that plating. Which Adamantine body replaces.

[dextercorvia]

Which is a different thing than a racial feat, like an elf's proficiency with a longbow.

Of course it is. What I'm saying is that the benefit of Adamantine Body is an Ex ability -- which according to a strict RAW reading are only retained if they derive from class levels.

[meemaas]

Composite plating: The plating used to build a warforged provides a +2 armor bonus. This plating is not natural armor and does not stack with other effects that give an armor bonus (other than natural armor). This composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged cannot wear armor or magic robes. Warforged can be enchanted just as armor can be. The character must be present for the entire time it takes to enchant him.

Emphasis mine.

Reading this directly, it says quite clearly that the composite plating is considered armor. And as per the Alter self spell, which has been quoted a few times i believe. Your gear is either melded into the new form or becomes worn by the new form. However, as Composite plating is both considered armor occupying a body slot, and a feature of your physical form, the armor would be melded into your new form, unless you chose another form that was listed as having composite plating as part of its features.

Now, i know what you're thinking. You're thinking that Adamantine body is a feat that does not say it modifies Composite plating, and thus is not dependent on it. It is obviously implied, but that is not rules as written, so that brings you to a powerful dilemma.

You can consider Adamantine body to be independent of Composite plating if you so wish. But in that case you are considering yourself to be sporting two independent armor bonuses. One from Composite plating and one from Adamantine body. Rules as written say that only the higher armor bonus applies, and thus the Composite plating is forgotten about. So far so good, right? Well, as written, Adamantine body cannot be enchanted, while Composite plating can. What does this mean? Reading it while ignoring the flavor text says that you pay a feat to never again be able to improve your armor bonus by enchanting it, because only the higher armor bonus will apply, and the only thing you can enchant is the Composite plating's +2.

By rules as written, the way you are reading them. By taking a feat, you are not allowed to enchant your armor bonus anymore.

Do you see where i am going with this?

Now, lets read the Adamantine body feat a bit closer.


Benefit: Your armor bonus is increased to +8 and you gain damage reduction 2/adamantine. However your base land speed is reduced to 20 feet, and you are considered to be wearing heavy armor. You have a -1 dexterity penalty to AC, a -5 penalty on all skill checks that armor check penalties apply to, and an arcane spell failure chance of 35%.

Emphasis mine

To increase an armor bonus, you must have an armor bonus. Ergo, Adamantine body increases the armor bonus of Composite plating from +2 to +8. Read it any way you want, but to increase, you must have. If Composite plating is not part of the feat, as you are reading it, and you are increasing a +0 to a +8, then the second bolded part comes into play. You are considered to be wearing two suits of armor, by your reading. One from Adamantine body, and one from Composite plating. By being considered to be wearing armor, you are considered to have your body slot occupied. But you cannot have two items occupy the same body slot, magic or otherwise, without some obscure feat or class feature that i might not know about.

As others have argued before me, probably more eloquently, i know i diverge quickly. Adamantine body, as a feat, is intended to modify Composite plating. As Composite plating is the base armor bonus of a Warforged, and considered to be the armor the warforged is wearing, even though it is part of the warforged too, when you Alter self to a form that does not get Composite plating, you lose all features that are granted by it. Such as the Adamantine body bonuses that are given by upgrading the armor bonus given by Composite plating. And since i expect you will mention that +0 is still a bonus. Remember that it also specifically calls out the bonus normally granted to a warforged, which is a +2 bonus. If normal (Without the feat) is not +2 armor bonus, then Adamantine body is not modifying it.

[Spuddles]

To increase an armor bonus, you must have an armor bonus.

False.

An armor bonus of 0 that goes to 8 has been increased.


Adamantine body, as a feat, is intended to modify Composite plating.

Though that may be an intention, it is not an actual written rule.

Again, look at the pre-requisites for Adamantine Body.

[Kyberwulf]

no,.. You don't have an armor bonus of +0
You don't have an Armor bonus at all. Not until you GET an Armor Bonus of +0
To GET an armor bonus you must have SOMETHING to give you Armor.

[Kyberwulf]

Page 118

Warforged Feats
It says you improved their armored bodies..

Furhermore, it says you are considered to be wearing Heavy Armor.

[dascarletm]

False.

An armor bonus of 0 that goes to 8 has been increased.



Though that may be an intention, it is not an actual written rule.

Again, look at the pre-requisites for Adamantine Body.

Ignored:


If Composite plating is not part of the feat, as you are reading it, and you are increasing a +0 to a +8, then the second bolded part comes into play. You are considered to be wearing two suits of armor, by your reading. One from Adamantine body, and one from Composite plating. By being considered to be wearing armor, you are considered to have your body slot occupied. But you cannot have two items occupy the same body slot, magic or otherwise, without some obscure feat or class feature that i might not know about.


and



You can consider Adamantine body to be independent of Composite plating if you so wish. But in that case you are considering yourself to be sporting two independent armor bonuses. One from Composite plating and one from Adamantine body. Rules as written say that only the higher armor bonus applies, and thus the Composite plating is forgotten about. So far so good, right? Well, as written, Adamantine body cannot be enchanted, while Composite plating can. What does this mean? Reading it while ignoring the flavor text says that you pay a feat to never again be able to improve your armor bonus by enchanting it, because only the higher armor bonus will apply, and the only thing you can enchant is the Composite plating's +2.