What Happens When Different Coloured Dragons Mate?

[GoatBoy]

The question came up in a game today, and I wasn't able to find an answer in the Draconomicon, and I can't think of where else any information on the subject might be in any 3.5 or Pathfinder material.

In the end, we figured that any offspring would have a fifty-fifty chance of inheriting the colour of either parent. But we also figured that there would be a five percent chance of blending colours. This could result in either a mixed colour, possibly with the strengths of both parents, or there could be some sort of genetic error, resulting in a wretched and miserable half-breed.

For the lulz, we figured that, since this was a mating of a chromatic and metallic, there was a one percent chance of either an avatar of Bahamut or Tiamat coming into existence, ready to save/destroy the world.

To our surprise, out of five eggs, two were normal dragons of either colour, with one each of the strengthened and wretched half-breeds, and an avatar of Tiamat. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Is there an "official" answer somewhere that we've missed?

[VGLordR2]

This is hardly official, but the Half Dragon template is applicable to dragons.

[JeminiZero]

This is hardly official, but the Half Dragon template is applicable to dragons.

Actually it is semi-official (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a)

Or to paraphrase a certain Orc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html): Me half-dragon. Other half, also Dragon.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually it is semi-official (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a)

Or to paraphrase a certain Orc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html): Me half-dragon. Other half, also Dragon.
But this case, different dragon.
That imply very ugly backstory.

[hushblade]

I believe this idea was posted on this forum before. With half dragon dragons, assume the base creature has a virtual half dragon template applied to it already, take away what the template would give, and then add what the new half dragon template would give, you end up with something that makes sense.

[Alleran]

AD&D had Electrum dragons (offspring of a Gold and a Silver). Other than that, just whack on the Half-Dragon template and call it a day, if you need a quick fix.

[molten_dragon]

I really want to make my players fight a barber-pole dragon now (red-white crossbreed).

[Randomguy]

I believe this idea was posted on this forum before. With half dragon dragons, assume the base creature has a virtual half dragon template applied to it already, take away what the template would give, and then add what the new half dragon template would give, you end up with something that makes sense.

Well, increased genetic diversity normally does make an animal stronger. A mule is stronger than a horse or a donkey, for example. So you might as well just add the other template onto their without doing any fiddling.

[Alleran]

Well, increased genetic diversity normally does make an animal stronger. A mule is stronger than a horse or a donkey, for example. So you might as well just add the other template onto their without doing any fiddling.
Though I think mules are sterile (or at least the male ones are?).

[Namfuak]

Though I think mules are sterile (or at least the male ones are?).

Yes they are, but horses and donkeys are not the same species (and thus do not produce fertile offspring together). Presumably the different shades of dragon are still the same species, though I don't know if any source explicitly says whether half-dragon dragons are fertile.

[Ernir]

I really want to make my players fight a barber-pole dragon now (red-white crossbreed).

Not a pink dragon? :smallfrown:

[Wookie-ranger]

I really want to make my players fight a barber-pole dragon now (red-white crossbreed).


Not a pink dragon? :smallfrown:

What would that breath weapon be? Steam maybe? or sparkles? :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Bubble gum (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-11-23.jpg), obviously.

[Novawurmson]

In one of the Rise of the Runelords books (#4, I think?) Paizo lays out rules of a hierarchy of dragons; the stronger dragon's bloodline goes through...I'll look it up.

[Lateral]

Though I think mules are sterile (or at least the male ones are?).

They are, but dragons of different colours are most likely more closely related than horses and donkeys. They're just different subspecies of true dragon, after all.

Besides, dragons can mate with damn near anything.

[Bit Fiend]

Hm, one odd example, now that I think about it, is Draconis from Baldur's Gate II. He is a brown dragon (what ever that means) while his father, Abazigal, is a blue one... However this is 2e, a video game and involves a dead god of murder as an ancestor, so I don't know if it's applicable anyway...

[molten_dragon]

Not a pink dragon? :smallfrown:

No, barber pole would be much cooler. It would have two breath weapons, a line of razors, and a cone of shaving cream.

[Dire Panda]

I've used a few dragon crossbreeds before. I don't see them having the "hybrid vigor" that would be implied by the half-dragon dragon, since true dragons are technically the same species, but on the upside that means they're still fertile. Usually I just take the better of the parents' HD, caster level, ability scores, breath damage, etc. and replace their SLA's, breath weapon, and personalities with something thematically appropriate. So an adult pink dragon (red and white parents) has the same stats as an adult red, and breathes a steam cloud dealing 12d10 damage (Reflex DC 26 half). Oddly enough, it is immune to neither fire nor cold, but is resistant to both (scaling with age). If we're doing this for chuckles, its SLAs might include Color Spray, Glitterdust, Rainbow Pattern, etc. It uses the power of cuteness to lull victims into a false sense of security before devouring them - since, after all, it's still chromatic.

Things get more complicated, of course, if the pink dragon then cuddles up with an electrum dragon (gold/silver hybrid)... and then whatever hatches from that mating goes on to breed with yet another variety. Maybe the mighty prismatic dragon (ELH) is the result of generations upon generations of dragon crossbreeding? I can see an interesting villain coming from this concept - an ancient wyrm or perhaps a dracolich has started abducting the eggs of other dragon varieties for a breeding project. The wyrmlings that hatch are magically controlled for life and slain as soon as they have bred. The goal of this centuries-long project is to produce a perfect hybrid whose power exceeds all known dragon varieties, then take control of it using True Mind Switch or similar and become the undisputed master of dragonkind...

[Novawurmson]

In Golarion, certain draconic bloodlines take dominance over others. For example, red dragons can usually dominate and mate with any of the other chromatic dragons, while white dragons are the weakest and can usually only overpower and breed with their own kind. In addition, metallic dragons follow the line of their mothers while chromatic dragons follow the line of their fathers.

Mixing chromatic and metallic breeds an "Abomination" dragon of one of five types: Hoarfrost, rot, ruin, rust, and suffocation.

There's also clans and family trees and such, but the setting-specific lesson is that for chromatics, it's the mother's type (like pokemon!) while for chromatics, it's the father.

[Acathala]

I am fairly certain Council Of Wyrms had something on this, but it's not 3.5 material.

[Answerer]

not the same species (and thus do not produce fertile offspring together)
Fun fact: that definition of species doesn't actually quite work in all cases. For example, fertile mules have been born, though they are usually not (and it would be very odd to consider horses and donkeys the same species even if they did). To get more fundamental, plenty of things do not use sexual reproduction, which makes a definition based on sexual reproduction meaningless when trying to divide up the species.

Actually, no definition of species really seems to always work, at least not without combining some formerly-separate (or splitting some formerly-unified) species. It's something of an issue in biology, though oddly enough not as big a one as you might imagine (since for most organisms it is reasonably clear-cut).

Along similar lines, there's no good definition of reptile other than "an amniote that's not a bird or mammal."

[grarrrg]

Yes they are, but horses and donkeys are not the same species (and thus do not produce fertile offspring together). Presumably the different shades of dragon are still the same species, though I don't know if any source explicitly says whether half-dragon dragons are fertile.

Easy one first: as stated before, a cross-breed dragon would still be fertile, as Dragons can mate with ANYTHING, which is why there is a 'Half-Dragon' Template to begin with. Also, "magic" and "A wizard did it".


Mules are the result of Male Donkey and Female Horse.
Hinnies are the result of Male Horse and Female Donkey, and are rarer than Mules (apparently M-Donkeys/F-Horses aren't too picky about mates...).

Mules and Hinnies can be male or female.

Horses and Donkeys have different numbers of Chromosomes, which makes most mules/hinnies 'effectively' sterile.

Male mules/hinnies are sterile, BUT Females can occasionally have offspring, they obviously have to breed with a Horse/Donkey, but it is possible.

So it is possible to have a 3/4 Donkey 1/4 Horse.
Although MUCH less likely to have a 3/4 Horse, 1/4 donkey, as M-Horses are 'picky' about mates.

tl;dr MULEZ CAN HAZ BABBIEZ!

[Spider_Jerusalem]

In our games, a dragon's color is determined by more facts than just genetics. Dragons are beings of magic, and their birth is greatly magical in nature too. A dragon's egg acts as a "receiver" of energy, and the energies it absorbs can determine a few things, such as the time it will take for the egg to hatch, the color of the dragon and, some sages say, the power it will have and its role in the world's history.

An egg starts with one "base point" of the color of each parent. An egg layed by a blue dragon who mated with a red dragon, for example, would have one "red point" and one "blue point". Environment, exposure to magic, exposure to living (or undead) beings, exposure to natural events and other factors can give more color points to the offspring. When the egg hatches, its color is determined by these points.

In our game's mythology, all dragons come from one, which they call the First and worship as a god. It is said that from the breath of the First the Five Guardians were created. This means that cromatic dragons are seen as the "purest" of dragons.

If one type of color point is prevalent over the others, the offspring has that color and is a cromatic.

If there is a balance between two types of color points, a non-cromatic is born. Most of these breeds are seen as lesser dragons. Some, though, such as the Gold Dragon and the Silver Dragon, are seen as blessings from the First and enjoy good status among dragonkind.

This way, we can use most of the dragons we can find in any book, refluff them a bit, and call them mixed breeds. One of the dragon NPCs we have is Vaarkrinax, a Pyroclastic Dragon, who is the son of a male red dragon and a female black dragon.

[Novawurmson]

In our games, a dragon's color is determined by more facts than just genetics. Dragons are beings of magic, and their birth is greatly magical in nature too. A dragon's egg acts as a "receiver" of energy, and the energies it absorbs can determine a few things, such as the time it will take for the egg to hatch, the color of the dragon and, some sages say, the power it will have and its role in the world's history.

I like this a lot.

[navar100]

How do you suppose we get purple dragons, yellow dragons, brown dragons, mercury dragon?

As for the prismatic dragon, his lineage must be interesting, but he looks "fabulous!" :smallbiggrin:

[hewhosaysfish]

What would that breath weapon be? Steam maybe? or sparkles? :smallwink:

A red dragon has fire breath and a white dragon has cold breath so a barbers-pole (or pink) dragon would logically breathe a cone of room-temperature.

[grarrrg]

A red dragon has fire breath and a white dragon has cold breath so a barbers-pole (or pink) dragon would logically breathe a cone of room-temperature.

"AHH!!! LOOKOUT IT'S GOING TO USE ITS BREATH WEAPON!!!!"

*gentle breeze*

"Actually, that was quite refreshing..."

[eggs]

There was a really old Dragon magazine that called all the intermediate-colored dragons out as crossbreeds between Red/Blue/Yellow dragons.

And I remember an old AD&D pdf floating around that included a dragon whose breath weapon slathered all its targets with drunkenness. The dragon was pink.

In the absence of something more official, that's the story I'm choosing to accept. :smalltongue:

[Randomguy]

There was a really old Dragon magazine that called all the intermediate-colored dragons out as crossbreeds between Red/Blue/Yellow dragons.

And I remember an old AD&D pdf floating around that included a dragon whose breath weapon slathered all its targets with drunkenness. The dragon was pink.

In the absence of something more official, that's the story I'm choosing to accept. :smalltongue:

Are you sure it was a pink dragon, not a pink elephant?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by molten_dragon
No, barber pole would be much cooler. It would have two breath weapons, a line of razors, and a cone of shaving cream.

But his hoard would only be two bits. :smalltongue:




Originally Posted by Answerer
Actually, no definition of species really seems to always work.... It's something of an issue in biology, though oddly enough not as big a one as you might imagine....

There are about two dozen species concepts in circulation right now, many of which have been developed in response to particular issues with particular organisms.

The choice of species concept has a tremendous impact on the taxonomic arrangements for a given group, and not everyone agrees on which concepts are best to apply in which situations. Some of them simply can't be applied to certain groups of organisms, and some of them aren't meant to. It's by no means sorted.

[grarrrg]

But his hoard would only be two bits. :smalltongue:

Correction: He'd have to make his hoard two-bits at a time.
Good thing Dragons live for centuries...

[Andorax]

Actually, there's official word in Pathfinder on the topic...I'd have to hunt for the source though.

Cross-breeding among metallics, the female line dominates.

Cross-breeding among chromatics, the male line dominates.

Cross-breeding between metallics and chromatics result in horrendous abominations.

[Talakeal]

I believe that the official rule is you get a dragon with the half dragon template. I personally always used the "smaller" parent species as the base creature and the "larger" parent species as the template donor to make dragons which where somewhere between the two rather than a super dragon that is stronger than either parent.



Hm, one odd example, now that I think about it, is Draconis from Baldur's Gate II. He is a brown dragon (what ever that means) while his father, Abazigal, is a blue one... However this is 2e, a video game and involves a dead god of murder as an ancestor, so I don't know if it's applicable anyway...

Brown Dragons are a species unique to forgotten realms which lacks wings and instead burrows.

[dascarletm]

This is what happened to all the poor Zinc dragons. They lived near copper dragons, and, well... They really found copper dragons exotic. Now all that is left of them is the Bronze dragons.:smallbiggrin:

[Kuulvheysoon]

This is what happened to all the poor Zinc dragons. They lived near copper dragons, and, well... They really found copper dragons exotic. Now all that is left of them is the Bronze Brass dragons.:smallbiggrin:

Fixed that for you. Brass is (mainly) Copper and Zinc, while Bronze is mainly Copper and Tin.

Geology Major, what can I say?:smallbiggrin:

On topic, I always apply the Half-dragon template, and use the female as the 'base' dragon, giving them the Dragon Breath feat (RotD) as a bonus feat at 1HD.

[dascarletm]

Fixed that for you. Brass is (mainly) Copper and Zinc, while Bronze is mainly Copper and Tin.

Geology Major, what can I say?:smallbiggrin:

On topic, I always apply the Half-dragon template, and use the female as the 'base' dragon, giving them the Dragon Breath feat (RotD) as a bonus feat at 1HD.

gah I knew that I was actually meaning to say Tin, but bollocks I suck.
:smallfrown:

[Craft (Cheese)]

Mixing chromatic and metallic breeds an "Abomination" dragon of one of five types: Hoarfrost, rot, ruin, rust, and suffocation.

Just curious, but are these given official stats anywhere?

[SSGoW]

The question came up in a game today, and I wasn't able to find an answer in the Draconomicon, and I can't think of where else any information on the subject might be in any 3.5 or Pathfinder material.

In the end, we figured that any offspring would have a fifty-fifty chance of inheriting the colour of either parent. But we also figured that there would be a five percent chance of blending colours. This could result in either a mixed colour, possibly with the strengths of both parents, or there could be some sort of genetic error, resulting in a wretched and miserable half-breed.

For the lulz, we figured that, since this was a mating of a chromatic and metallic, there was a one percent chance of either an avatar of Bahamut or Tiamat coming into existence, ready to save/destroy the world.

To our surprise, out of five eggs, two were normal dragons of either colour, with one each of the strengthened and wretched half-breeds, and an avatar of Tiamat. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Is there an "official" answer somewhere that we've missed?

Well... what you get is a dragon of one of the parents color OR a human. What? Why? Well there are two species that can and *will* mate with anything... Dragons and humans. Humans just happen to be offsprings of metallic and chromatic dragons and why they never mate. Magic + Chromatc/Metallic Dragon Sex = Humans. They have the magic in their viens (sorcerers) and the lust in their hearts.

Yeah I really have no clue but I would say 5050 chance of going one way or the other with whatever the parents are.

[Randomguy]

Just curious, but are these given official stats anywhere?

Rust dragon is in the Draconomicon. I'm not sure about the others though, but I'd guess that Hoarfrost is in Frostburn.

[Arcane_Secrets]

No, barber pole would be much cooler. It would have two breath weapons, a line of razors, and a cone of shaving cream.

It should also be able to simulate a hypnotic pattern by having the stripes move on its skin.

As for the drunken breath weapon, there was a planar dragon called the Elysium dragon that did that, but it wasn't pink. I won't describe it here, though. I don't want to be responsible for the mental scarring that would ensue otherwise.

[Alleran]

I won't describe it here, though.
Allow me to assist you. (http://i49.tinypic.com/9lhge9.png)

[Metahuman1]

It should also be able to simulate a hypnotic pattern by having the stripes move on its skin.



The stripes should also create an optical illusion when it makes attacks with it's body parts that throws off the targets ability to peceive the length and positioning of the appendage that's coming at them, thus leaving them flat footed against the attack.

Worked for that dude with the mask in the third story arch for Raroni Kenshin. (Probably miss spelled that but anyway.)

[yougi]

Back to the Original Question.

Isn't there a setting where a dragon's color is determined by its alignment, and not the other way around? I mean, a gold dragon who'd become LE would become green. Then, the child could be... transparent until old enough to "have an alignment"

[dascarletm]

Back to the Original Question.

Isn't there a setting where a dragon's color is determined by its alignment, and not the other way around? I mean, a gold dragon who'd become LE would become green. Then, the child could be... transparent until old enough to "have an alignment"

How does one differentiate between two of the same type? Like Gold/Silver, and Green/Blue.. etc.

[Annos]

Half-Dragon dragon

[lunar2]

all i know is, half-gold silver dragons with 1 monk level are absolute beasts. you can't hit them, they can't miss you, and their saves are too high to even be funny.

[The Redwolf]

The stripes should also create an optical illusion when it makes attacks with it's body parts that throws off the targets ability to peceive the length and positioning of the appendage that's coming at them, thus leaving them flat footed against the attack.

Worked for that dude with the mask in the third story arch for Raroni Kenshin. (Probably miss spelled that but anyway.)

Ruroni Kenshin, and very nice reference and theory.

[ThiagoMartell]

Draconomicon page 27 implies you simply apply the half-dragon template.

[Dr.Epic]

But which dragon gains the template?

And what if a gold dragon matter with a red dragon? Would it look like Iron Man?

[The Redwolf]

But which dragon gains the template?

And what if a gold dragon matter with a red dragon? Would it look like Iron Man?

If I were the DM I would make it look like iron man, it would have a glowing ioun stone stuck in its chest too.

[ThiagoMartell]

But which dragon gains the template?

And what if a gold dragon matter with a red dragon? Would it look like Iron Man?

The book is silent on this. I'd say it's 50/50 if the dragons are in the same age category or you would use the age category of the older dragon. But this is just a wild guess and a houserule.

[Kuulvheysoon]

But which dragon gains the template?

And what if a gold dragon matter with a red dragon? Would it look like Iron Man?

I always rule that the father is the templated type (eg. male Brass Dragon mates with a female Gold Dragon, the offspring would be half-brass Gold Dragons).

[yougi]

How does one differentiate between two of the same type? Like Gold/Silver, and Green/Blue.. etc.

Yes.

Seriously though, that's a darn good question.

[lightningcat]

all i know is, half-gold silver dragons with 1 monk level are absolute beasts. you can't hit them, they can't miss you, and their saves are too high to even be funny.

I once made a silver dragon paladin with a belt of the monk, which is my high (or low) point for rediculous saves. Adding in the half-gold... *shutter*

But as to the original question, if you can find a copy of the 2e Draconomicon, they spent way to much time answering that.
But I'd go with the higher HD dragon parent being the base creature.

[T.G. Oskar]

This is what happened to all the poor Zinc dragons. They lived near copper dragons, and, well... They really found copper dragons exotic. Now all that is left of them is the Bronze Brass dragons.:smallbiggrin:

Hmm...so, if I get this right:

Zinc and Tin dragons are pretty much extinct, and all there are is Brass, Bronze and Copper dragons. If that's so...does that mean that the Copper lineage breeds like rabbits? The ideas are frightening to behold...

Also, what about Amalgam dragons? And Electrum dragons? Who said Geology majors had to have all the fun? Remember, remember, the Engineer is of Science a member!

[Zubrowka74]

The question came up in a game today, and I wasn't able to find an answer in the Draconomicon, ...

...In the end, we figured that any offspring would have a fifty-fifty chance of inheriting the colour of either parent. But we also figured that there would be a five percent chance of blending colours. This could result in either a mixed colour, possibly with the strengths of both parents, or there could be some sort of genetic error, resulting in a wretched and miserable half-breed.

...

Funny because the 2e Draconomicon had a whole section on cross-breeding mongrel dragons. It was roughly the same system you used, minus the wretch and the avatars. The mixed colour had either one breath weapon at random or a combo choosen by the DM. Examples were for the purple an electricity-charged cloud of fire or for the black/red a linear stream of napalm that burst on contact.

[GenghisDon]

But which dragon gains the template?

And what if a gold dragon matter with a red dragon? Would it look like Iron Man?

Go with the weaker type as the baseline, so the +8 str doesn't overkill things too much. Dragon CR is too low anyway, adding half dragon template isn't about a power-up really.

EX: young adult black dragon (large) 16 HD STR 19 DEX 10 CON 17 INT 12 WIS 13 CHR 12 AC 24 breath 10d4 CR 9

young adult red dragon (huge) 19 HD STR 31 Dex 10 Con 21 INT 14 Wis 15 Chr 14 breath 10d10 AC 26 CR 13

so black dragon (1/2 red dragon) at young adult is 16 HD large STR 27 DEX 10 CON 19 INT 14 WIS 13 CHR 14 AC 28 breath 10d4, fire breath 1/d for 6d8, CR 11

not especially impressive, but fast enough.

[Zetapup]

But as to the original question, if you can find a copy of the 2e Draconomicon, they spent way to much time answering that.
But I'd go with the higher HD dragon parent being the base creature.

I actually have the 2e draconomicon here at home, so...

For appearance, the color is usually a blend of the two parents' colors, so red and white would give pink, etc. HOWEVER, there are stories of striped or polka dotted dragons, so a barber pole type dragon could be entirely possible :smallsmile:

The breath weapon has an 80% chance of just being one of the parents regular breath weapons and a 20% chance of being a combo.

I hope this helps.

[GenghisDon]

http://www.123rf.com/stock-photo/snake_skin_pattern.html

I imagine patterns somewhat like the above, based on the colours involved. They would make for some pretty cool looking dragons actually.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In EQ... it created Kaerafim, The Sleeper. Who would Deathtouch the whole zone when he woke up. It was a once-a-server thing. One of the Zek servers actually managed to beat him legit. It was pretty much a zerg rush effort involving every major guild on the server.

And as for the Barberpole Dragon, clearly it would have associated Bard levels (rather than Sorcerer), and it's breath weapon would be a cone of harmony (Will save or Charm). Thus says SPEBQSA.

[lunar2]

i know in one old setting i built, their was town of half dragons. they had been around so long that some mongrel dragons had shown up. they lost their immunity to any 1 energy type, gained resistance 20 to all 5 energy types, and their breath weapon was untyped damage. also, what was that 3 headed dragon from dragon magazine? i remember it was orange, and iirc it's breath weapon was a gust of wind. well, their were half dragons for that, too. they didn't have a breath weapon or energy immunity, but they got the wings- even though all the citizens were medium humanoids, except for that 1 half celestial bronze (or was it copper?) dragon (hound archon heroes are still dogs, you know)- and 3 heads, with 3 bite attacks. they also got an extra +2 to con and intelligence.

[Boci]

Along similar lines, there's no good definition of reptile other than "an amniote that's not a bird or mammal."

That seems like it becomes a pretty official definition. "Reptile: A cold blooded amniote that possesses neither mammary glands or a superior birdular gland in the brains". Yeah I'm sold on that.

On a related note, hasn't it been concluded that fish is not a viable biological category of animal?