Alternate Bard class

[Kasbark]

Hello everyone! long time lurker first time poster here

The Bard class and I have never been good friends. I've always liked the concept behind the class (Jack of all trades, social guy - kinda like an alternative to the Rogue), but also found him to be clunky and bad for immersion in play (running around and playing the Lute in combat doesn't fit the with type i games i run). Now that I'm in the process of making a bunch of changes for my groups Pathfinder game, i wanted to make some changes to the Bard. Basically I'm looking for inspiration to re-make the bard, or a full replacement i can use instead.

Does anyone know of any good alternatives to the Bard class? It needs to be a full 20-level class. It doesn't have to be Pathfinder - 3.5 or homebrew will work as well.

Thanks for any answers!

[Kadarai]

If you want a replacement to the general "Support" role, there is the Dragon Shaman from PHII and the Marshal from Miniatures handbook.

If you specifically search for a bard replacement as not only a buffer, but as a general diplomancer, face of the group, field general and passable combatant, i strongly support, my personal favorite, the Marshal. As a base class he is weak after lvl4, as his class features just repeat, but the general inspiring concept is similar and his skill list is good. His "grand move action" is situationally good, but as a pure class his "Adrenaline Boost" is gold. His skill list combines the paladin with the ranger and by abusing some synergies he can be really good. With a more diverse back ground, using Dragon Magic, he can be also be combined with some dragonic auras for more complex effects. He is in most ways a more militaristic version of the bard.

In case you can use prestige classes, the Bard/Marshal/Mythic Exemplar proggression is one of my top favorites. Great supporting/buffing abilities to the entire group in and out of combat, passable melee abilities, great list for social interaction, and adventuring... he is the best of both marshal and bard.

[Corlindale]

To be fair, a bard doesn't have to be the iconic lute-player. In PF he could just as well be using Perform: Oratory and be a tactical advisor in combat. But there are of course alternatives if you dislike the entire performance element.

First, there's the Archaelogist Bard archetype in PF. It's basically a bard without performance but with some rogue elements thrown in. Sounds like it could be just what you need.

The Inquisitor might also fit some of the bard niches, though he is not really much of a party buffer. But he's got tons of skill points and class skills, so he's kind of geared to be both a rogue and a face (though they do tend to have Cha as a dump stat).

[KoboldsAreLittl]

I am also a big fan of the Jester class from the DC. It's fun, and basically the same, with a bit of the same skills and abilities. Plus, they can affect undead (at later levels), and can debuff a little better.

[Wookie-ranger]

I have to agree about the bard being a bit silly looking.
you have a guy with a big sword and a shield that can split a tree in half with one swing; you have a guy in robs that can alter the very fabric of the universe; you have the one with mace and holy symbol that fights for a cause and can channel the essence of a deity; and then you have the guy that looks pretty and can sing well.
yeah right.

I have played in a group with "house rule" where you can re-fluff the bard as much as you want (almost anyway). Even though bard spells still count as arcane, Bard magic (music) was simply another form of magic aside from divine/arcane. What it did did not change, just the way each character casts it.

[JeminiZero]

The Bard class and I have never been good friends. I've always liked the concept behind the class (Jack of all trades, social guy - kinda like an alternative to the Rogue), but also found him to be clunky and bad for immersion in play (running around and playing the Lute in combat doesn't fit the with type i games i run).

For the record, the Bard DOESN'T need to use a lute. He can Inspire Courage by Perform Sing or Chanting alone. For flavor, all you need then, is for him to roar the appropriate song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDMtl9r21Ok) while wading into battle.


Does anyone know of any good alternatives to the Bard class? It needs to be a full 20-level class. It doesn't have to be Pathfinder - 3.5 or homebrew will work as well.

Dragon Shaman and Marshal have been mentioned (and there are also the various homebrew fixes for them). And of course the link in my sig might be of interest.

[Arbitrarious]

What role do you want to fill? What traits are important? What abilities do you want to have exactly?

If you want a Jack of All Trades, factotum is hard to beat. If you want a more magical bent you could look at beguiler. They make excellent party faces. Neither of them is a good party buffer however.

As has been said singing is a matter of preference. Tactical commander is perfectly valid, especially splashed with Marshall. If you don't violently object to ToB then Song of White Raven with a splash of bard make excellent commander type party support as well and do well in melee on their own. You may need to tweek it some as in pathfinder they wouldn't have enough bardic music uses since the feat was 3.5.

If at then end of the day you just want a bard sans music rename and refluff the ability as something else.

Inspiring presence- A bard's mere presence can hearten his allies. By adjusting his tone and posture he can alter the exact effects... etc.

[Big Fau]

After playing a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, all but one of the qualms I had against the class vanished completely. That one is their spell progression, but even with that flaw I can live with it.

[Ezekiul]

Well you can do a paladin/bard build or a cleric/bard build. The paladin has an ACF that gives him bardic music at level 1 called harmonious knight, and the initiate of milil feat lets paladin/cleric and bard levels stack for bardic music. Or you can go factotum in dungeonscape which gets the ability to copy class features at higher levels (bardic music), while being a skill monkey with the ability to cast a few spells a day, as well as other fancy stuff. If your looking for homebrew, Id advise talking with your DM and working something out. There are lots of things you can do with bards i.e. bardblades (warblade/bard), bardbarians (barbarian/bard), you can make a virtuoso/sublime cord and go more into spellcasting, and if your trying to be a melee/ranged bard dragonfire inspiration is a fantastic damage boost for you and your party. Anything with bard in it can benefit being a skill monkey, especially if you take the bardic knack ACF that lets you roll any skill as if you had cross class ranks equal to your level.

[Kasbark]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I'm just now reading through all the suggested classes to try and find the best fit for what i want (a guy who can buff and debuff a bit, while being a melee focused class. So far the Marshall is looking good!

[Seharvepernfan]

Responding to original post:

Beguiler. It's an alternate rogue that is less combat/trap focused and more social/trickery focused. Like the bard, it can't fight, though it's still more "offensive" than a bard. It can't support like a bard, however.

I've always felt that classes like bard, ranger, and paladin should have been prestige classes.

Beguiler > Bard
Scout > Ranger
Cleric > Paladin

[Campbellk8105]

My party would be terribly upset if my Bard was gone. I'm playing a straight, simple, boring Bard. Maxing Inspire Courage. With the right feats and what not, play two songs at once, so I can inspire courage and greatness. I think at the moment I give the party something like +16 attack +14 damage and the other goodies of Inspire Greatness.

Resounding Voice in Heroes of Battle, makes it so you can be heard at 100ft. per caster level. 2nd level spell.

Another insane choice, is the Alphorn in Song and Silence. 1d10 miles for Inspire that sucker has on it... Only thing is, is that its like 10 feet long. Thats why I had a magic user custom make one so I can resize it when I need it.

So Bard being blah, means nothing to me anymore. I also second Dragonfire Inspiration. Battledragon, sonic damage. With my current build that'd be like 14d6 extra sonic damage on each hit... per character...

[Golden Ladybug]

Responding to original post:

Beguiler. It's an alternate rogue that is less combat/trap focused and more social/trickery focused. Like the bard, it can't fight, though it's still more "offensive" than a bard. It can't support like a bard, however.

I've always felt that classes like bard, ranger, and paladin should have been prestige classes.

Beguiler > Bard
Scout > Ranger
Cleric > Paladin

These might be relevant to your interests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hello everyone! long time lurker first time poster here

The Bard class and I have never been good friends. I've always liked the concept behind the class (Jack of all trades, social guy - kinda like an alternative to the Rogue), but also found him to be clunky and bad for immersion in play (running around and playing the Lute in combat doesn't fit the with type i games i run). Now that I'm in the process of making a bunch of changes for my groups Pathfinder game, i wanted to make some changes to the Bard. Basically I'm looking for inspiration to re-make the bard, or a full replacement i can use instead.

Does anyone know of any good alternatives to the Bard class? It needs to be a full 20-level class. It doesn't have to be Pathfinder - 3.5 or homebrew will work as well.

Thanks for any answers!

First off, lute is optional. Personally, when building a combat bard, I like to take on songs of a slightly different (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0sW7KOFhU) genre.

Of course, then there's Dragonfire Inspiration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF_bIjIPAE).

Stop thinking of a ponsy fop with a feather in his cap and some lute and start thinking of inspiring your forces to rock you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaOlfmX8rQ)!

[Bloodgruve]

The bard can be perfectly capable in melee. I really don't know why people think they have run around with a lute in combat.. You can be inspired in other ways (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9698TqtY4A).

The PF bard is pretty good except for music 1round/day/lvl. I would move it to 1 use/day/lvl like 3.5. Also give the player an option to initiate a song as a move or swift action like Song of the White Raven does.

If you build a standard bard right he can turn into a monster along with turning your whole group into monsters with him...

Blood~

[Psyren]

(a guy who can buff and debuff a bit, while being a melee focused class.)

Since you're playing Pathfinder, the Paladin and Inquisitor fit this description really well.

Also, is it pure Pathfinder, or is 3.5 material allowed?