Help me make my rogue awesome

[Crake]

So I have a level 3 rogue in a campaign I'm playing right now

I rolled some sweet stats, after racial adjustments it came out to

14 str
19 dex
12 con
18 int
12 wis
17 cha

I went a grey elf for the int and dex, got twf at level 1 and weapon finess at level 3 using mainly shortswords.

Skills wise I have 5 ranks in balance, bluff, diplomacy, disable device, hide, jump, listen, move silently, open lock, search, sense motive and spot, with 6 ranks in tumble and use magic device. I only wanted 5 ranks in balance to retain dex bonus while balancing and same in jump for the tumble synergy, not planning on advancing those two skills beyond 5 ranks

What I would like help with though is developing some kind of direction for this rogue. I was somewhat pidgin holed into going rogue because we needed a trapfinder/skillmonkey, but I've got most of the skills we need to a decent-ish level right now. Our party lacks any arcane spellcaster, so I want to maybe try and fill that hole at least partially.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler in PH2 would have been a better choice.

For this character, you probably want to take the feat Craven from Champions of Ruin. It gives you a -2 penalty on saves versus fear effects, but you add your character level to your damage when making a sneak attack. Check out the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel. With such a high Int score you could go Rogue 4/ Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) 1/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), use your Psion 1 bonus feat for Practiced Manifester to qualify, and get the Mind Cripple trick at Psychic Assassin 5. If you're not evil-aligned, see if you can drop the Death Attack class feature in exchange for ignoring the alignment and special prerequisites of Psychic Assassin.

Powers known should include Crystal Shard and/or Energy Ray, since you can use them to make sneak attacks. If your DM is enforcing favored class rules, you'll need to go Rogue 3/ Psion 2 instead unless you can get your favored class switched from Wizard to Psion, two extremely similar classes. I'd probably go Seer or Nomad, though Egoist and Telepath are solid choices as well. If you want more BAB, take only six levels in Psychic Assassin and finish with Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm).

[HunterColt22]

You could also go Spelltheif as a multi class option if you want as this point because you cha is very decent as well also for the class. Trick is you need to steal a spell to cast one, even ones you learn at fourth level and beyond. If you are looking for an arcane spell list though it is not a bad option to get into. With this option you could then prestige into dagger Mage I think it's called? I dont have the books in front of me but its a rogue arcane advancing class that focuses on dagger use, which while less damage than the short sword, have slashing or piercing always helpful when trying to bypass certain dr options.

Another odd option to fill the arcane gap is either Dragon Fire Adept or Warlock multiclassing. These last two options do not, I repeat do not prestige well into anything, but they can be a nice flavor to add if you character likes dragons or spell like abilities. Also invocations are very fun. Greater Invisibility anyone?

[Snowbluff]

Another odd option to fill the arcane gap is either Dragon Fire Adept or Warlock multiclassing. These last two options do not, I repeat do not prestige well into anything, but they can be a nice flavor to add if you character likes dragons or spell like abilities. Also invocations are very fun. Greater Invisibility anyone?

They kind of do, actually. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2997) If you use Precocious Apprentice and a lucky ruling can get you into more.

[Crake]

Beguiler in PH2 would have been a better choice.

For this character, you probably want to take the feat Craven from Champions of Ruin. It gives you a -2 penalty on saves versus fear effects, but you add your character level to your damage when making a sneak attack. Check out the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel. With such a high Int score you could go Rogue 4/ Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) 1/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), use your Psion 1 bonus feat for Practiced Manifester to qualify, and get the Mind Cripple trick at Psychic Assassin 5. If you're not evil-aligned, see if you can drop the Death Attack class feature in exchange for ignoring the alignment and special prerequisites of Psychic Assassin.

Powers known should include Crystal Shard and/or Energy Ray, since you can use them to make sneak attacks. If your DM is enforcing favored class rules, you'll need to go Rogue 3/ Psion 2 instead unless you can get your favored class switched from Wizard to Psion, two extremely similar classes. I'd probably go Seer or Nomad, though Egoist and Telepath are solid choices as well. If you want more BAB, take only six levels in Psychic Assassin and finish with Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm).

yeah, I saw beguiler just recently, I'd heard of the class, but never really looked at it. Immediately thought to myself "damnit, should have gone that."

I'm liking the psychic assassin idea, and yes, my DM is enforcing favored class rules, and I highly doubt he would swap wizard for psion, because he's playing a very traditional setting where psions are incredibly rare and he's using the psionics is different rule. That said, my DM has warned us that psionics may attract psionic specific enemies that may try to hunt/feed on you or something.

That said, my DM isn't big on web supplements.


You could also go Spelltheif as a multi class option if you want as this point because you cha is very decent as well also for the class. Trick is you need to steal a spell to cast one, even ones you learn at fourth level and beyond. If you are looking for an arcane spell list though it is not a bad option to get into. With this option you could then prestige into dagger Mage I think it's called? I dont have the books in front of me but its a rogue arcane advancing class that focuses on dagger use, which while less damage than the short sword, have slashing or piercing always helpful when trying to bypass certain dr options.

Another odd option to fill the arcane gap is either Dragon Fire Adept or Warlock multiclassing. These last two options do not, I repeat do not prestige well into anything, but they can be a nice flavor to add if you character likes dragons or spell like abilities. Also invocations are very fun. Greater Invisibility anyone?

I haven't really looked at spelltheif, although warlock was something I was looking at, both for invisibility at will at level 6 and the take 10 on UMD checks at level 4. But I kinda feel warlock will take me a bit too much off track from what the party needs from me.

Daggerspell mage looks interesting, I might look into that, CL 5th i could easily get with practised spellcaster, but I need a feat for weapon focus dagger too, I cant afford those feats until level 9 D=

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

yeah, I saw beguiler just recently, I'd heard of the class, but never really looked at it. Immediately thought to myself "damnit, should have gone that."

I'm liking the psychic assassin idea, and yes, my DM is enforcing favored class rules, and I highly doubt he would swap wizard for psion, because he's playing a very traditional setting where psions are incredibly rare and he's using the psionics is different rule. That said, my DM has warned us that psionics may attract psionic specific enemies that may try to hunt/feed on you or something.

That said, my DM isn't big on web supplements.

The official support for psionics is extremely limited, and the Mind's Eye articles were specifically intended to expand on those options despite a lack of published material.

Regarding the other psionic enemies seeking out your character, that's actually a perfect reason to take Slayer after Psychic Assassin. As long as your DM isn't a jerk and going to throw opponents at you that you can't hope to defeat, it will add some depth to the story/setting and give the DM something to work with for side quests.

[Crake]

If you're not evil-aligned, see if you can drop the Death Attack class feature in exchange for ignoring the alignment and special prerequisites of Psychic Assassin.

wheres the rule outlining this? because my character is not evil, we infact have a paladin in the party, and my DM would want to see the rule.

edit: just re-read that as I hit enter and saw that it was a suggested houserule XD

I'll ask my DM, but I'm not sure he'd ok that.

[Snowbluff]

wheres the rule outlining this? because my character is not evil, we infact have a paladin in the party, and my DM would want to see the rule.

edit: just re-read that as I hit enter and saw that it was a suggested houserule XD

I'll ask my DM, but I'm not sure he'd ok that.

Also, the Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) is just an Assassin that isn't evil. Maye your DM will allow Psionic Assassin for Avenger?

[Amoren]

Personally, I vote staying rogue, or rogueish, rather than throwing in all of these other things to turn you into a spellcaster or gish. :P

Lets see, I'll dust off a rogue I'm using for a game for this advice. He's a sneaky, dagger wielding kobold, but shouldn't hurt too much (all that changes is not being quite as stealthy, and not being a dragon, rawr).

Rogue 3/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 5/Rogue or whatever.

Hit and Run fighter is an ACF from Drow of the Underdark. You trade your heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency for +2 untyped bonus to initiative (awesome) and adding your dexterity to damage against flat footed targets (even more awesome, but wait, there's more!). From the same book is the Surprising Riposte feat, which allows you to render a target flat footed until its next turn (or the end of your next turn, whichever is first) if you hit it with an attack after feinting - which an Invisible Blade can do as a free action (!!!).

So, not only are you allowing Hit and Run fighter to now add your dexterity to damage, you also prevent it from taking attacks of opportunity and immediate actions. Surprising Riposte does require you to take combat expertise and feint, however, but see if your DM will allow the Invisible Blade's uncanny feint (feint as a move/free action once/turn) will allow you to qualify wholly or in part for it. Also make sure to ask if you can change the feat entry requirements, as there's an entire history of how Wizards bungled that one. The original author of the class recommends changing the requirements to; Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger, Kukri, or Punching Dagger).

Take Craven (your level bonus to sneak attack damage), and when you get a free feat slot after you get BAB +6, Staggering Strike (whenever you sneak attack an enemy, they have to make a fortitude save AGAINST THE DAMAGE YOU JUST DEALT, or be forced to take only a single move or standard action during their turn).

If you find a way to get Hide In Plain Sight, or go Avenger, you can then stealth around the battlefield making full attacks while remaining hidden (provided you can pass the -20 difficulty to hide while attacking), while crippling your foes.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

switch your INT and CON, or your CHA and CON. a TWF finesse rogue stat array should be DEX>CON>STR/WIS>INT/CHA.

you want to fight in light armor with no shield with a d6 hit die? ouch. thats half the reason rogues have a bad reputation, people make them too flimsy for prolonged melee combat.

I suggest picking up Iron Will, especially if you take Craven. your party will thank you after you DON'T stab them in the back after being dominated.

Remember Weapon Focus, it helps with the TWF penalties. I would also suggest 4 levels of fighter just to pick up weapon specialization for when you can't Sneak Attack...

Or Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw Feat.

If you want to move past TWF...

grab a rapier, a buckler, a wand bracer (dungeonscape) and wand chambers for your shield and your sword. This allows access to 7 wands as a swift action, and allows 3 of them to be "wielded" at once.

Either max out UMD or Dip a level of Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer. This allows you to use any wands or scrolls from said spell list without any investment into UMD or chance of failure. (Cleric will also get you more weapons and better armor choices).

IF you want to take more spellcasting classes, you could pick up a variety of PrCs... Arcane trickster, Unseen Seer, Skullclan Hunter, etc.

This allows allows feats like sacred outlaw.

[Crake]

Personally, I vote staying rogue, or rogueish, rather than throwing in all of these other things to turn you into a spellcaster or gish. :P

Lets see, I'll dust off a rogue I'm using for a game for this advice. He's a sneaky, dagger wielding kobold, but shouldn't hurt too much (all that changes is not being quite as stealthy, and not being a dragon, rawr).

Rogue 3/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 5/Rogue or whatever.

Hit and Run fighter is an ACF from Drow of the Underdark. You trade your heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency for +2 untyped bonus to initiative (awesome) and adding your dexterity to damage against flat footed targets (even more awesome, but wait, there's more!). From the same book is the Surprising Riposte feat, which allows you to render a target flat footed until its next turn (or the end of your next turn, whichever is first) if you hit it with an attack after feinting - which an Invisible Blade can do as a free action (!!!).

So, not only are you allowing Hit and Run fighter to now add your dexterity to damage, you also prevent it from taking attacks of opportunity and immediate actions. Surprising Riposte does require you to take combat expertise and feint, however, but see if your DM will allow the Invisible Blade's uncanny feint (feint as a move/free action once/turn) will allow you to qualify wholly or in part for it. Also make sure to ask if you can change the feat entry requirements, as there's an entire history of how Wizards bungled that one. The original author of the class recommends changing the requirements to; Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger, Kukri, or Punching Dagger).

Take Craven (your level bonus to sneak attack damage), and when you get a free feat slot after you get BAB +6, Staggering Strike (whenever you sneak attack an enemy, they have to make a fortitude save AGAINST THE DAMAGE YOU JUST DEALT, or be forced to take only a single move or standard action during their turn).

If you find a way to get Hide In Plain Sight, or go Avenger, you can then stealth around the battlefield making full attacks while remaining hidden (provided you can pass the -20 difficulty to hide while attacking), while crippling your foes.

I'm actually really liking the sound of this setup. I can't take avenger though, since my alignment is CG, unless I can get my DM to waive that pre-req.

also, do you have the source for the feat requirement change suggestions? my DM would probably want to see that


switch your INT and CON, or your CHA and CON. a TWF finesse rogue stat array should be DEX>CON>STR/WIS>INT/CHA.

you want to fight in light armor with no shield with a d6 hit die? ouch. thats half the reason rogues have a bad reputation, people make them too flimsy for prolonged melee combat.

I suggest picking up Iron Will, especially if you take Craven. your party will thank you after you DON'T stab them in the back after being dominated.

Remember Weapon Focus, it helps with the TWF penalties. I would also suggest 4 levels of fighter just to pick up weapon specialization for when you can't Sneak Attack...

Or Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw Feat.

If you want to move past TWF...

grab a rapier, a buckler, a wand bracer (dungeonscape) and wand chambers for your shield and your sword. This allows access to 7 wands as a swift action, and allows 3 of them to be "wielded" at once.

Either max out UMD or Dip a level of Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer. This allows you to use any wands or scrolls from said spell list without any investment into UMD or chance of failure. (Cleric will also get you more weapons and better armor choices).

IF you want to take more spellcasting classes, you could pick up a variety of PrCs... Arcane trickster, Unseen Seer, Skullclan Hunter, etc.

This allows allows feats like sacred outlaw.

I cant swap my abilities around at this point since this character has already been introduced into the game.

Also, the craven feat, if you get fear immunity from a spell effect or something (like mind blank) does that stop the feat from working for the duration of the spell since you no longer meet the pre-reqs?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

IF you can't move your stats around, I would suggest NOT doing TWF. not only does it lower your to hit, but also your defenses but not allowing for a shield.

I would go the UMD rogue route I outlined above. You have the stats for that, you don't really have the stats for a TWF melee beast.

[Amoren]

Unfortunately I don't believe it was posted on the wizards site, but I do remember he posted it on a forum. Unfortunately, I don't remember which or have a link. However, if your DM isn't hugely strict he should rule with you. It's a class entirely built around engaging foes in melee combat and feinting, and it has point-blank shot and far throw as its requirements. I mean, there are feat taxes, and there are "This is completely useless to what the class is supposed to be doing."

Other options are Fey Mystery Initiate, although it IS a dragon magazine feat. It allows you to undergo three rituals, the most important of which allows you to trade intelligence instead of constitution for your HP. That'll give you +3 HP over your current set up, allowing you to be a bit more resilient; but otherwise keeping the opponent flat footed, preventing them from only making a SINGLE attack, and latter on taking advantage of a huge hide score and Hide In Plain Sight (either from template, item, or class) should keep you fairly safe.

If you want to play a more offensive rogue (warning, your trap skills will suffer unless your DM is allowing full ranks into cross-class skills) you might want to take a look at Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior), and Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel). Daring Outlaw causes rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for the purposes of Sneak Attack, so you can get 10 levels of Swashbuckler after Invisible Blade (or trade one of the HnR fighter levels for it, you only need one for the ACF) for a total of +19 BAB. There's also a Swashbuckler ACF which gives you a shield bonus for using two-weapons, which should help with the AC penalties once again. But, as mentioned, your trap skills will suffer. You'd also gain weapon finesse again, but you could ask your DM to get another feat you qualify for (or retrain Weapon Finesse as you level up).

[Crake]

IF you can't move your stats around, I would suggest NOT doing TWF. not only does it lower your to hit, but also your defenses but not allowing for a shield.

I would go the UMD rogue route I outlined above. You have the stats for that, you don't really have the stats for a TWF melee beast.

I forgot to mention that I also have two hand crossbows, so against enemies that would destroy me in melee I've been running to a spot I can hide from and sniping enemies with sneak attacks.


Other options are Fey Mystery Initiate, although it IS a dragon magazine feat. It allows you to undergo three rituals, the most important of which allows you to trade intelligence instead of constitution for your HP. That'll give you +3 HP over your current set up, allowing you to be a bit more resilient; but otherwise keeping the opponent flat footed, preventing them from only making a SINGLE attack, and latter on taking advantage of a huge hide score and Hide In Plain Sight (either from template, item, or class) should keep you fairly safe.

I'll definitely ask about Fey Mystery Initiate, as it certainly sounds amazing, but my DM is trying to keep this game at least a LITTLE conservative, so I wont hold my breath for dragon magazine feats.

With the whole hit and run fighter/invisible blade idea, I was looking at it and I was a little worries about some of the skills I would have to give up (my DM does skills traditionally, no leeway on that).
As for going avenger, my DM said no due to alignment clash D=

[Amoren]

Lets see, Invisible Blade gets 4+ Int skill points per level, so that's 8 skill points for you. To be a sneaky trap fighter you're going to need bluff (for feinting), hide, move silently, search, and disable device, and definitely tumble if you can. The only two that aren't in the PrC are search and disable device. Fortunately, you can keep all of those maxed (four for bluff, hide, move silently, tumble, then four to put cross-class skill ranks into search/disable device, your maximum rank is still your character level due to your rogue levels).

Fighter will be trickier, you only get six skill points those one/two levels. And you might have to invest into sense motive for Invisible Blade. You could always take another level of rogue (grabbing uncanny dodge), but it would put you behind a feat for qualifying for Surprising Riposte.

Also of note, see if you can grab the Alternate Class Feature Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape. You'll trade your +1 trapsense at level 3 for the benefit of dealing half your sneak attack die to creature's immune to sneak attack while flanking them.

[Crake]

Lets see, Invisible Blade gets 4+ Int skill points per level, so that's 8 skill points for you. To be a sneaky trap fighter you're going to need bluff (for feinting), hide, move silently, search, and disable device, and definitely tumble if you can. The only two that aren't in the PrC are search and disable device. Fortunately, you can keep all of those maxed (four for bluff, hide, move silently, tumble, then four to put cross-class skill ranks into search/disable device, your maximum rank is still your character level due to your rogue levels).

Fighter will be trickier, you only get six skill points those one/two levels. And you might have to invest into sense motive for Invisible Blade. You could always take another level of rogue (grabbing uncanny dodge), but it would put you behind a feat for qualifying for Surprising Riposte.

Also of note, see if you can grab the Alternate Class Feature Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape. You'll trade your +1 trapsense at level 3 for the benefit of dealing half your sneak attack die to creature's immune to sneak attack while flanking them.

I did consider rogue 4 very much, due to uncanny dodge and the extra skills, but the issue there is multiclassing penalties. With rogue 3/fighter 2, I'll have penalties just for the first level of fighter, but Rogue 4/fighter 1 means I'll have penalties at all times.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

okay, so you have two hand crossbows you can dual wield, to mitigate your lack of CON... how are you going to reload them? How are you going to consistently get sneak attack damage at range, when melee is where all of the sneak attack opportunities are?

If you choose to dual wield hand crossbows, you are going to get frustrated with your minimal damage, action economy, and reloading issues.

If you choose to TWF in melee, you are going to get disappointed when your rogue gets smashed by the first large sized creature that makes a full attack against you, because you decided to melee it up with 12 CON.

You need to switch something around: Either your stats, or what you plan on doing with your rogue. Right now, you are setting yourself up for rolling a new character in a couple sessions, barring DM fiat.

[Crake]

okay, so you have two hand crossbows you can dual wield, to mitigate your lack of CON... how are you going to reload them? How are you going to consistently get sneak attack damage at range, when melee is where all of the sneak attack opportunities are?

If you choose to dual wield hand crossbows, you are going to get frustrated with your minimal damage, action economy, and reloading issues.

If you choose to TWF in melee, you are going to get disappointed when your rogue gets smashed by the first large sized creature that makes a full attack against you, because you decided to melee it up with 12 CON.

You need to switch something around: Either your stats, or what you plan on doing with your rogue. Right now, you are setting yourself up for rolling a new character in a couple sessions, barring DM fiat.

I wrote a whole bunch of stuff but lost it because the server started backing up, so let me try and see if I can remember it all.

Regarding using two hand crossbows, I've been managing alright so far by hiding behind a corner, 5 foot stepping out, double sneak attacking, then 5 foot stepping back around, hiding and reloading the next round.
My party isn't really an optimised party, we have a tower shield paladin who soaks up damage/provides cover, a druid who almost exclusively uses produce flame to do anything, a self buffing favored soul melee aasimer who has yet to hit anything and a healer cleric/inquisitor. So damage wise I'm not really struggling.

What I'm looking for is a direction to take my rogue in, a niche other than being the skillmonkey. I had a look at spymaster, since the class somewhat goes with my character's backstory, and also master of masks because it looked like it might be fun to play.

Basically, I would like a memorable character, not necessarily an optimised one.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I wrote a whole bunch of stuff but lost it because the server started backing up, so let me try and see if I can remember it all.

Regarding using two hand crossbows, I've been managing alright so far by hiding behind a corner, 5 foot stepping out, double sneak attacking, then 5 foot stepping back around, hiding and reloading the next round.

Well, that right there is an illegal move. You can't step out, use TWF, and then step back. You can only make a single 5 ft step a round, and since you are using TWF, you can't use a move action to move back around hte corner. Plus, you take a -20 to stealth for sniping actions such as that anyway.

I also wouldn't worry about being optimized: Being a rogue is enough of a restriction in terms of power. I like the rogue class, it just sucks mechanically.

in 3.5, Rogue is one of the few classes with UMD as a class skill, that means a lot in 3.5. ITs the most powerful and versatile skill you have at your command, I don't suggest neglecting it.

If you really want TWF, then get improved unarmed strike and Snap kick, its TWF but better. It also allows a free hand, for say... a pile of wands.

[Gwendol]

CW ninja gets invisibility early on. The problem with multiclassing with classes like beguiler or spellthief is that your casting will suffer a lot. Either stick with rogue and classes that enhance the rogue, or dual class with wizard or sorcerer. Focus on ray spells and various self-buffs and defences. With practiced spellcaster you can offset the loss of CL a little.

[Crake]

Well, that right there is an illegal move. You can't step out, use TWF, and then step back. You can only make a single 5 ft step a round, and since you are using TWF, you can't use a move action to move back around hte corner. Plus, you take a -20 to stealth for sniping actions such as that anyway.

I also wouldn't worry about being optimized: Being a rogue is enough of a restriction in terms of power. I like the rogue class, it just sucks mechanically.

in 3.5, Rogue is one of the few classes with UMD as a class skill, that means a lot in 3.5. ITs the most powerful and versatile skill you have at your command, I don't suggest neglecting it.

If you really want TWF, then get improved unarmed strike and Snap kick, its TWF but better. It also allows a free hand, for say... a pile of wands.

that was over 2 rounds, so round 1, 5foot out, shoot, round 2, 5foot back and reload/hide, as for UMDing, the DM has been rather wary about giving us too many magic items, but I do so enjoy using UMD

As for moving out of twf, my DM wont allow the retraining rules from PHBII, but he WILL allow using psychic reformation IF we can find a psion (they're rather rare in the setting)


CW ninja gets invisibility early on. The problem with multiclassing with classes like beguiler or spellthief is that your casting will suffer a lot. Either stick with rogue and classes that enhance the rogue, or dual class with wizard or sorcerer. Focus on ray spells and various self-buffs and defences. With practiced spellcaster you can offset the loss of CL a little.

going ninja could pose issues with multiclassing penalties

[Gwendol]

Well, you could dual class.

[Crake]

I'm liking the idea of going hardcore UMD, is there a list somewhere of all the ways to get skill mastery with UMD? I've rolled enough 1s already casting from scrolls, my DM comes up with... interesting mishaps

the only two I can think of is warlock and artificer

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I'm liking the idea of going hardcore UMD, is there a list somewhere of all the ways to get skill mastery with UMD? I've rolled enough 1s already casting from scrolls, my DM comes up with... interesting mishaps

the only two I can think of is warlock and artificer

again, I would suggest dipping into a spellcaster class so you don even need to roll UMD when you use items from that spellcaster list. You can still use UMD for everything else.

[Rejakor]

If you go wizard 1 as your next level, you can qualify for Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) at level 5. It gives you 6+int skills, 1/3levels sneak attack, and full casting progression. It's a pretty easy way to boost the power of nearly any rogue class.

Alternatively, pick up UMD and some cheap scrolls of useful spells, and possibly respec your rogue into throwing, as it allows you to combine the extra attacks of TWF and Rapid Shot at a -4 to hit, but still doing your sneak attack damage, and flasks are touch attacks and can do sneak attack (acid in the eyes, alchemist's fire in the mouth/on the crotch/in your armour), and the Master Thrower prestige class lets you double your shots and always hit flatfooted AC.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Another idea is the Avenger PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).
It is basically a non evil Assassin. However, the main draw here are the spells. It isn't as expansive as a wizard, of course, but the spell lsit is good and to the point. Its even better if your DM will allow access to assassin spells from the various splat books. You can of course use wands and scrolls from your spell list without need for UMD.
You also have the full sneak attack progression, which is nice.

[Crake]

Another idea is the Avenger PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).
It is basically a non evil Assassin. However, the main draw here are the spells. It isn't as expansive as a wizard, of course, but the spell lsit is good and to the point. Its even better if your DM will allow access to assassin spells from the various splat books. You can of course use wands and scrolls from your spell list without need for UMD.
You also have the full sneak attack progression, which is nice.

This was already mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm unable to enter (for now at least) due to my alignment (CG). I talked about it with my DM and he said I wouldn't be able to enter while chaotic in alignment.


If you go wizard 1 as your next level, you can qualify for Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) at level 5. It gives you 6+int skills, 1/3levels sneak attack, and full casting progression. It's a pretty easy way to boost the power of nearly any rogue class.

Alternatively, pick up UMD and some cheap scrolls of useful spells, and possibly respec your rogue into throwing, as it allows you to combine the extra attacks of TWF and Rapid Shot at a -4 to hit, but still doing your sneak attack damage, and flasks are touch attacks and can do sneak attack (acid in the eyes, alchemist's fire in the mouth/on the crotch/in your armour), and the Master Thrower prestige class lets you double your shots and always hit flatfooted AC.

Both of these options actually look very interesting.

I'm a bit concerned about master thrower though, with it's high bab and feat entry requirements, it would take me longer than its worth to actually get into the class without running into multiclassing penalties if I wanted to go into say fighter or ranger to pick up some of them.

On the other hand, unseen seer is relatively easy, rogue4/wizard 1 (favored class wizard) would let me right in, and practiced spellcaster can offset those 4 levels of rogue. The only problem I have with that though, is that unseen seer doesn't have disable device as a class skill, which is something I almost certainly need to keep high (master thrower is only 5 levels, so I can handle it not having disable device)

I'd like to take a quick moment to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread by the way. There have been some very interesting ideas in here that I've gone from having no idea, to so many ides I can't even decide.

That said, by all means, please keep contributing ideas, I'd love to learn more about the interesting options people have come up with for rogues.

[Gwendol]

Able Learner might help a little, perhaps finding some other way to handle traps? Summons are popular.

In my experience, finding and disabling devices using skill checks is unreliable and very difficult. This makes the disable device skill something of a trap, at least at higher levels. But you will know what is best for your game of course.

[Snowbluff]

Another idea is the Avenger PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).
It is basically a non evil Assassin. However, the main draw here are the spells. It isn't as expansive as a wizard, of course, but the spell lsit is good and to the point. Its even better if your DM will allow access to assassin spells from the various splat books. You can of course use wands and scrolls from your spell list without need for UMD.
You also have the full sneak attack progression, which is nice.

Sorry, bro, I'm a Swordsage.

Has anyone suggested Staggering Strike yet? It's a little too good in my opinion.

[Rejakor]

Staggering Strike is barely worth the feat.

That said, that makes it vastly better than nearly every other feat for rogues except for TWF and Craven.


Ranks in Disable Device should not be your major source of bonuses. Wizards and Clerics both have spells that buff your skill checks, you can buy +competence items relatively cheaply, and there are named items that give unnamed bonuses to Disable Device (rogues vest, for one). Compare 2500gp for a +5 competence item and 5 levels in a class to get the +5 ranks... not exactly the same, no? Further, if you're REALLY worried about it, just take time out of Unseen Seer and take 1 level of rogue, and slam all the skill points into Disable Device - you've now got max ranks, and also some wizard casting.

Keep in mind though, with 4 lost caster levels from rogue levels (i'd retrain into a wizard 4/rogue 1, it's a better entry) you're not exactly Mr Cool Wizard Guy, you're like his cousin Hillbilly Wizard Guy who can barely cast Silence at level 9.



Honestly, if you're only playing a rogue for the disable device, you got shafted. There are any number of ACFs that let other classes pick it up, Human Paragon lets you pick a number of skills to be class skills, and a level 1 factotum with the Able Learner feat has all skills as class skills forever no matter what classes he takes.

That said, Rogues are really really fun to play. If you use mundane items, UMD, stealth, and burst sneak attack damage, you can really mess up someone's day, and adding spellcasting to that just makes it funner(shut up, funner is a word). But it only really gets fun when you bling it out - otherwise you just sit there doing piddly melee damage and no-one cares.

[Crake]

Staggering Strike is barely worth the feat.

That said, that makes it vastly better than nearly every other feat for rogues except for TWF and Craven.


Ranks in Disable Device should not be your major source of bonuses. Wizards and Clerics both have spells that buff your skill checks, you can buy +competence items relatively cheaply, and there are named items that give unnamed bonuses to Disable Device (rogues vest, for one). Compare 2500gp for a +5 competence item and 5 levels in a class to get the +5 ranks... not exactly the same, no? Further, if you're REALLY worried about it, just take time out of Unseen Seer and take 1 level of rogue, and slam all the skill points into Disable Device - you've now got max ranks, and also some wizard casting.

Keep in mind though, with 4 lost caster levels from rogue levels (i'd retrain into a wizard 4/rogue 1, it's a better entry) you're not exactly Mr Cool Wizard Guy, you're like his cousin Hillbilly Wizard Guy who can barely cast Silence at level 9.



Honestly, if you're only playing a rogue for the disable device, you got shafted. There are any number of ACFs that let other classes pick it up, Human Paragon lets you pick a number of skills to be class skills, and a level 1 factotum with the Able Learner feat has all skills as class skills forever no matter what classes he takes.

That said, Rogues are really really fun to play. If you use mundane items, UMD, stealth, and burst sneak attack damage, you can really mess up someone's day, and adding spellcasting to that just makes it funner(shut up, funner is a word). But it only really gets fun when you bling it out - otherwise you just sit there doing piddly melee damage and no-one cares.

I'm not just the disable device bitch, I'm also the scout, lockpicker, escape artist guy who gets us out of trouble and face of the party, so a lot of the skills I have come in useful, and I would be sad to leave any of them in the dust.

That said, I'm not THAT fussed about filling the arcane role, I do understand that 3 levels of rogue somewhat gimps me in that regard. I'm actually totally fine with going rogue 20, just with some nifty feat choices.
I'm a little worried about going into PrC that focus strongly on one sort of gameplay, as that may a) get boring quickly and b) end up being useless in certain scenarios.

Also, since I may not have made it clear, I'm unable to "respec" anything (as much as I would love the ability to do so) beyond what psychic reformation would allow, as this character is already in the campaign, the DM doesn't allow entire class levels of retcon and no retraining from PHB2.