Paladin Falling Stories here!

[BoutsofInsanity]

Interested in hearing about other people having their own paladin falling stories. Whether they were roleplayed well, or if it was a dm horror story. Just post them away.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, there was a game I played in where the party was riding an airship, and naturally it was attacked by sky pirates. The Paladin happened to be on the receiving end of a bull rush and rolled really poorly...

[Waker]

Thank you for that Glyphstone.
Well, my story goes back to my starting days in D&D, my second character. I was playing as a Gnome Paladin, when two of my companions and myself went on something of a scouting mission to locate any potential threats to the keep we were living in. I can't recall what the other characters were, except that one of them was an elf. Anyways, we encountered a fairly large group of gnolls, being outnumbered 6 to 1, I suggested discretion in place of suicide. I was outvoted and the others charged into battle. I followed begrudgingly.
In a few rounds, it was decided that we should shift our battle plan to terrified retreat. While fleeing the idiot elf who first proposed that we fight got knocked out. My character doesn't notice this as he in front of the elf. How he managed to get behind the gnome in full-plate is beyond me.
For leaving a comrade to die, my character lost his paladin powers. My character pouted for a bit, but eventually found a new calling in life. He started down his road to becoming a Blackguard, with a burning hatred for elves as one of his big traits.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Mine was killing a bandit who registered as evil on the radar, was a murderer, a bandit, went against the King's authority, who had surrendered. We were not in a position to take him with us or to turn him into the proper authorities. I just put an arrow through the evil doers brain.

[Techwarrior]

My first Paladin was a 2nd edition Paladin, bearing that in mind.

Spoilered for length.
The party had just been teleported thousands of miles away to find an artifact hidden in an ancient tomb. The teleporter gave us the name of the person the tomb was for and then teleported us 'to the tomb.' We landed in the middle of a patch of farmland... needless to say we were all quite confused. So, we went to the nearest town and began asking questions.

Bad news: The tomb we were looking for was swallowed up in an earthquake centuries ago...

Less bad news: We figured that it was probably still around maybe, so began thinking about ways to get in.

Our conclusion was to ask one of the little kids where really good hiding spots for. So we got the nine year old to show us the way to the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooom.

So once we got to the caverns and such to where the temple is hidden, I told the kid that he needed to go back home, because now the big tough adventurers needed to go into caves to find the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooooom.

Kid says no.

I tell the kid that his parents probably are worrying about him by now.

Kid says his parents suck.

Thief in the party (who is secretly evil and thinks my falling will be hilarious) says if we can't get him to go home, he should at least be equipped properly and hands the nine year old two completely ordinary daggers.

I tell both of them that that isn't enough, and the kid needs to go home.

Kid takes two swats at me with the daggers. Nat 20, nat 20...

I sigh, and say alright fine, buy stay close to me.

Kid leads us through the caves to the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooooooom.

I look around for the kid, saying "Ok kid, stay close to me now, this place is dangerous."

Kid runs off before I finish speaking, runs up the stairs, where the Gargoyles flanking the steps jump up, and tear the nine year old kid, that I just let run into the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooooooooom, to shreds.

I look at the Gargoyles, look at the pool of blood, look at the DM, and say "I'm not a Paladin anymore are I?"

DM: Don't you feel like a Paladin?
Me: No
DM: Then probably not.
Thief (and DM): :smallamused:

And that's why I don't play Paladins.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Allow me to tell you the tail of Sir Theodius of Mourngallow, and his fall from paladinhood.

He was chasing down a nefarious and irredeemable villian already sentenced to death by the local nobility for crimes to obscene to mention in polite company. A necromancer of some power, completely lacking any shred of morality or decency.

When they finally cornered him and dispatched his now re-deceased minions, Sir Theodius announced that this villian had already been sentenced to death, and that he would now execute that sentence, having been ordained by his order and deputized by the noble for that purpose.

When he raised his blade for the death stroke, the necromnancer spoke out

"Wait! Through my arts, I have linked my life with that of the entire village. Slay me, and you will also slay every last man, woman, and child within a day's walk. Their innocent blood will be on your hands."

Sir Theo paused a moment to reflect on the situation. True, many innocents would die if he struck the villian. That was a sin, and a violation of the oaths he took when he joined the Order to protect the innocent.

And knowing full well that he would be fall for it, he struck the blade home.

When asked why, he responded thusly:

"That all those innocents died by my action is a sin which I am still attempting to atone for. Not to regain my palidancy, which is beyond redemption for the willing act which so violated my oath, but for the sanctity of my own soul. It is a heavy burden to bear. But I bear it gladly.

Would I do it again? Yes I would. That foul necromancer was growing in power daily, and his bargain was a fool's one. He would have slaughtered them anyways for his own nefarious purposes, and then gone on to continue being a canker sore on the kingdom, growing in power until almost no one could stop him.

By doing so, I shed innocent blood, but I saved far more. Who knows how many others would have fallen. Every day, the number of victims he would have claimed but will not climb. Perhaps that is not true, no one can truly say what might have been. But at the very least, the count would be far greater than those who fell on that day.

A paladin is expected to lay down his life for his honor, in the defense of the people. If he can sacrifice his life in order to save a village... it is fit that he should do so, and his name will live on, his honor unbesmirched.

I sacrificed my paladinhood to save untold innocents. It may well be a harder sacrifice to make, because the question of honor becomes much more difficult.

I may not have made the proper choice, but I believe I made the right one. I chose for the greater good than for my personal well being. That, I believe, is the essence of being a Paladin."

He continued in his journeys after that, even though his Order cast him out of their ranks. He retained his knighthood, since his action was not illegal, and was last seen practicing a discipline called "Devoted Spirit". He was even offered a Psychic Reformation to assist him in that path, but he declined.

"What is the point of a sacrifice if it is undone? Let me keep my past, it will help me reforge my future."

[Malimar]

Yesterday, the paladin in my game arranged to be flung from a trebuchet at an ogre. That involved both going up and coming down. Surprisingly, she survived.

[Mjollnir075]

The second game I ever played in was a half good, half evil party. Two of us were good (me, the human paladin. friend, the elf cleric of Corellon), and two evil (Rogue and Necromancer Wizard). We were on a quest to prevent a Vestige from returning to the material plane and wiping out life, which was the reason we put our differences aside and worked towards the common goal.

Long story short, by the end of the campaign, the two evil members of the party convinced me, in character, that there was far more power to be gained by becoming a blackguard. While visiting a ruined/defunct altar to Nerull, my character tied up the cleric in his sleep and sacrificed him to Nerull, which activated his altar and gave me levels in blackguard (offering up paladin levels)

Cleric was returned to us by Nerull as a necropolitan, and we went on to stop the vestige to preserve the balance that Nerull wanted, claiming the dead on his terms, not the terms of some outside force.

[Dire Panda]

Hostage situations don't usually end well for someone as unsubtle as a paladin.

I base this statement primarily on a campaign I ran a couple years ago. One of the party members was a hotheaded female paladin best described as "Miko on bath salts" who had previously:

Challenged the high priestess of a kingdom-toppling horde of giants to single combat (and ended up beaten senseless and eaten whole, later rezzed by the party)
Jumped off a cliff, lance in hand, onto a green dragon flying below. Not only did she actually hit it, but she killed it in midair and survived the crash-landing.
Suicidally (and single-handedly) held a mountain pass against a legion of roughly one thousand hobgoblins to buy time for refugees to evacuate. And killed them all. And was disappointed by it.
Been purposely swallowed by various monsters to kill them from the inside (lower AC)... and survived every time.

She fell when the party attempted to negotiate with a balor who had taken another PC's family hostage. The demon had just begun to explain its demands - which, if she'd let him finish, involved foiling the plans of a rival demon lord and were perfectly acceptable for a paladin to perform - when she got that look in her eye.

Pally: "I summon my mount as a swift action [Feat] and charge with my lance!"
Me: "Really?"
Wizard (in character): "Hold, friend! Those demons ex-"
Pally: *rolls a nat 20, confirms with an 18*
Wizard: "-plode."

The poor balor never had a chance - she took the Great Smiting feat several times, had Spirited Charge and Dire Charge, and was using a valorous lance. The resulting blast left her mostly unscathed, but the wizard's family was dust. She ended up falling hard and spent the next few in-game months doing atonement quests - mostly hostage rescue, culminating in taking a level of gray guard so she could sneak/bluff her way into Dis and rescue wrongly imprisoned souls. We ended up with a paladin who was just as angry at the world... but willing to be subtle about it sometimes.

[Unusual Muse]

Allow me to tell you the tail of Sir Theodius of Mourngallow, and his fall from paladinhood...

Now that is a paladin! Nice one.

[ThiagoMartell]

Shneekey, that is how you play a paladin! Well done!
Btw, I think becoming a Grey Knight would get you most of your paladin abilities back.

[Eldest]

Allow me to tell you the tail of Sir Theodius of Mourngallow, and his fall from paladinhood...

This? Good reason to fall.



My first Paladin was a 2nd edition Paladin, bearing that in mind.

Spoilered for length.
The party had just been teleported thousands of miles away to find an artifact hidden in an ancient tomb. The teleporter gave us the name of the person the tomb was for and then teleported us 'to the tomb.' We landed in the middle of a patch of farmland... needless to say we were all quite confused. So, we went to the nearest town and began asking questions.

Bad news: The tomb we were looking for was swallowed up in an earthquake centuries ago...

Less bad news: We figured that it was probably still around maybe, so began thinking about ways to get in.

Our conclusion was to ask one of the little kids where really good hiding spots for. So we got the nine year old to show us the way to the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooom.

So once we got to the caverns and such to where the temple is hidden, I told the kid that he needed to go back home, because now the big tough adventurers needed to go into caves to find the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooooom.

Kid says no.

I tell the kid that his parents probably are worrying about him by now.

Kid says his parents suck.

Thief in the party (who is secretly evil and thinks my falling will be hilarious) says if we can't get him to go home, he should at least be equipped properly and hands the nine year old two completely ordinary daggers.

I tell both of them that that isn't enough, and the kid needs to go home.

Kid takes two swats at me with the daggers. Nat 20, nat 20...

I sigh, and say alright fine, buy stay close to me.

Kid leads us through the caves to the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooooooom.

I look around for the kid, saying "Ok kid, stay close to me now, this place is dangerous."

Kid runs off before I finish speaking, runs up the stairs, where the Gargoyles flanking the steps jump up, and tear the nine year old kid, that I just let run into the ancient forgotten tomb of powerful artifacts and dooooooooom, to shreds.

I look at the Gargoyles, look at the pool of blood, look at the DM, and say "I'm not a Paladin anymore are I?"

DM: Don't you feel like a Paladin?
Me: No
DM: Then probably not.
Thief (and DM): :smallamused:

This? Not so much.

[Lord_Gareth]

This story isn't just a paladin falling story - it is the story of how I came to truly realize the pervasive balance flaws in 3.5 and how they apply to more than class level'd combat. I was, incidentally, playing the paladin.


Justice is Dead
We'd tracked the Erinyes to the Cathedral of the Invincible Sun, in Shatterdown. There were five of us - Sir Jorin Shieldheart (a paladin in service to St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel), Brother Gentlefist (a cleric of Kord), the illustrious Lady Wandholm (a bard of noble birth and bearing), a nervous elf that gave his name only as Butterknife (with very little explanation thereof, though Sir Jorin seemed to know something about him that the rest of us did not) and myself, Koalin Indigo, a sorcerer of some small fame.

We had no idea what we were in for when we opened the front door.

The Pelorian altar had been desecrated with the blood of a dozen murdered priests. The devil stood at the head of the room, impassively observing a lay member of the church that was strangling to death as she swung from a noose. The Erinyes body was splattered with gore, and I am ashamed to admit that I nearly retched right there - the stench was overpowering.

Brother Gentlefist raised his mace and opened his lips to begin a spell when the devil turned suddenly, rimmed in sickly red light that guttered and spat. The radiance leapt from her outstretched hand and impacted us, scrabbling at our minds and trying to freeze us in place. I barely fought it off, but was horrified to see that aside from myself, only Sir Jorin was staggering out of the light.

"Come and get me," the devil hissed, and she spread her greasy wings wide and took to the air in a mighty leap, landing in the rafters of the cathedral.

I began a spell as Sir Jorin sprinted past me, unsheating his sword to save the devil's latest victim. He cut her down just as I finished my magic, striking at the she-devil with an orb of shrieking sound. The impact made her ears bleed. I was repaid for my efforts with a flaming arrow to the shoulder, and the searing impact made my eyes water and a blossom of pain bloom in my flesh.

Jorin began climbing the tapestries while I attempted another spell, but they tore beneath his fingers. My magics fizzled against some kind of protection on the she-witch, but I drank a potion and felt its power settle over me just before she loosed her second arrow, and it shattered against me. Jorin leapt onto the statue of Pelor and climbed grimly, sword in one hand and prayers on his lips.

Spells and arrows flew and traded as the Erinyes and I jockeyed for advantage and Jorin ascended steadily. Just as he reached the rafters, the devil spared him a glance - and vanished as a cloud of darkness descended over the church, hovering just above my face and devouring all light.

Wasting no time, I turned to the paralyzed form of Lady Wandholm and began rummaging through her scroll cases until I found what I was looking for - a scroll of banishment that would send the devil back to the Nine Hells. I looked up and waited for the darkness to vanish.

And vanish it did. Jorin had not moved, not wanting to risk falling from the rafters, but the Erinyes had totally changed her position. Jorin sprinted after her, sword raised, and realized the trap far too late - he cut left in order to get a better approach on the devil and fell through an illusory wooden beam. It was thirty feet to the stone floor, and he landed with enough impact to shatter flagstones.

I opened the scroll and read desperately, and the look of horror on the she-devil's face was beyond compare. Just as she opened her mouth to screech something, the spell was completed and she vanished with a small clap of displaced air.

Jorin picked himself up, bleeding in several places. The holy symbol on his breastplate was scratched and marred, and his helmet was so badly dented that all he could do was throw it away, which he did. Before I could ask him how badly he was hurt, he seized the holy symbol from around his neck and threw it to the ground.

Sir Jorin plunged his blade into the soft silver, and after the sword wedged between two flagstones, he snapped the blade in half.

"What are you doing?" I cried out, shocked and stunned. Without a word, he began walking past me, stripping off parts of his armor as he went.

"I'm done," he murmured as he strode past the group. "I quit. I'm tired of fighting evil with my hands tied behind my back, and I refuse to become like it in order to oppose it."

"What about justice? What about your vows?"

He turned on me, fire in his eyes, and snarled, "Tell my order that justice is dead."

He walked out without a further word, and that's the last I ever saw of him.

[Maxios]

Okay, there was this one time where the party was standing in front of this really huge and deep hole, and my a-hole rogue pushed the paladin off it and laughed as he fell.

True story.

[NerfTW]

While fleeing the idiot elf who first proposed that we fight got knocked out. My character doesn't notice this as he in front of the elf. ...
For leaving a comrade to die, my character lost his paladin powers. My character pouted for a bit, but eventually found a new calling in life. He started down his road to becoming a Blackguard, with a burning hatred for elves as one of his big traits.

This and a lot of the stories in this thread just sound like jerk DMs looking to bully players. You're going to seriously argue that the gods would take away the powers of a paladin over something behind him that he had no idea was happening? I seriously would have just walked out right there.

If you have no control over it, you shouldn't fall for it. That's ridiculous. Not to mention that since the DM is controlling the plot, then basically, the DM just arbitrarily decided you're not a paladin anymore, such as by having a child run into a room and die.

And the bandit example sounds like another DM catch-22. If your plot suddenly means there's no way for the paladin to go on, then it's your job to say "Oh, no, there's a way out." You're the one writing the plot. Why would you purposely screw over a party member. You might as well spontaneously open a portal to a giant lava lake underneath them. Or teleport a Terresque on top of them. Pretty much the same type of jerk move.


Now, as for the necromancer one, you couldn't have turned him over to authorities that could hold him and reverse his spell? Or was this some sort of setting where only bad guys and your party ever learn magic, everyone else be damned?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneekey, that is how you play a paladin! Well done!
Btw, I think becoming a Grey Knight would get you most of your paladin abilities back.

After his fall, he went Crusader. He still meaningfully contributes as a party tank and melee battlefield control (he now uses a spiked chain + Thicket of Blades). He's currently working on Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack combo for more damage output, but is rather feat starved at the moment.


Now, as for the necromancer one, you couldn't have turned him over to authorities that could hold him and reverse his spell? Or was this some sort of setting where only bad guys and your party ever learn magic, everyone else be damned?

He had previously been described as being able to use some form of teleporting, and had escaped twice from supposedly secure locations. The nearest authority with enough magic to be able to hold him was two week's journey. The party's primary arcane casters were a beguiler and a sorcerer whose spells known list did not include Dimensional Anchor, so we could not be sure we could get him there without him pulling a vanishing act.

The necromancer was described as actively using taint to boost his magical power. I read this to mean 'Tainted Sorcerer cheese if you don't stop him now', so the odds of the Beguiler making a Dispel check was remote.

He had already gone Necropolitian, so he was immune to most methods of incapacitating a caster with the resources we had available.

Besides... he had been given an order by the lawful authority to execute the necromancer. He would have fallen for trying to disobey that order.

[Lord_Gareth]

Besides... he had been given an order by the lawful authority to execute the necromancer. He would have fallen for trying to disobey that order.

Really? I don't see anything in the Code that suggests or requires that, especially if innocent lives were at stake.

Additionally, fun fact: paladins aren't actually required to defend the innocent; their code requires them to punish those that threaten and/or harm the innocent, but not to actually protect said innocents in question. There's a reasonable case to be made that you shouldn't have fallen at all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Really? I don't see anything in the Code that suggests or requires that, especially if innocent lives were at stake.

Additionally, fun fact: paladins aren't actually required to defend the innocent; their code requires them to punish those that threaten and/or harm the innocent, but not to actually protect said innocents in question. There's a reasonable case to be made that you shouldn't have fallen at all.

Eh, it happened. Makes for a good story, anyways.

Besides, the GM was one of those 'no ToB' guys, but gave me the green light for Crusader since my character had already been hit hard with a nerf bat by falling and being unable to atone for it since it was a willing decision. In return, I have optimized the power level of the character to match the rest of the party. He's a solid tank, a little weak on the damage output at the moment, and pretty okay battlefield control.

As a result, the GM's opinion on ToB has somewhat relaxed, and he may well put ToB on his 'whitelist' of splatbooks in his next campaign, having seen that it isn't too powerful after all.

[Waker]

This and a lot of the stories in this thread just sound like jerk DMs looking to bully players. You're going to seriously argue that the gods would take away the powers of a paladin over something behind him that he had no idea was happening? I seriously would have just walked out right there.

I was slightly annoyed with falling, but I took it with(out divine) grace. Losing my Paladin powers did prove to be something of a nuisance, but it did give my character some amusing roleplaying opportunities. After that my character started becoming more bitter and falling in with the wrong crowd. Should I have been given a slightly better scenario for falling? Yes, I think so, but I made due.

[Lord_Gareth]

As a result, the GM's opinion on ToB has somewhat relaxed, and he may well put ToB on his 'whitelist' of splatbooks in his next campaign, having seen that it isn't too powerful after all.

Conga-rats, Shneekey.

I take it no one likes my story? T_T

[eggs]

My Halfling Paladin slashed up a cave full of evil goblins, but ran into a chamber of filled with evil goblin children. He took it upon himself to get the things raised and indoctrinated with truth, justice and a strange fixation on apple pies. A couple months of diaper-changing later, adventure called. The Paladin gathered up the goblins, stuck them in a cart, took them to town and left them in the care of an NPC backstoried in as a friend.

As the adventuring thing heats up, the Paladin goes back to the town, finds the goblins have eaten his buddy and a handful of other locals. He doesn't want to get his baby-slaying on, so he throws them back in the cart, skips town, finds a sturdy veteran friar in another village who would be amenable to the whole "good indoctrination" thing. The Paladin makes a pitch, revolving around white picket fences and gooey apple pies (tactfully omitting the cannibalism bit), leaves the goblins in the friar's care and goes off to rejoin the party and continue the fight against the evil ratman wizard.

One stormed castle later, the Paladin goes back, checks on the friar and GODDAMMIT the goblins have basically eaten a cloister. Another midnight cart-ride later, the Paladin finds a more heavily-armed war-nunnery filled with do-gooders to dump the goblins off with. But the campaign keeps campaigning, so the Paladin rushes off with the party to spelunk some dark and monstery hole.

When he gets back, the nuns are gearing up to hack the goblins up for eating a villageperson. One thing leads to another, and the halfling is beating nuns down to protect the little cannibals. In his defense, he was only doing nonlethal damage.

After the fight, the Halfling gathers up the goblins, skips town and tries to lay his hands all over himself. But at that point, the DM just laughs.

And a while later in the campaign, a Wendigo dropped him from quite high.

[Waker]

I did like the way your story was written Lord Gareth, though I find his frustration a bit much. He had trouble contributing to the fight, which I understand, but basically giving up his paladin powers because it was tough was weird.
As for you story eggs, that's some of the dumbest DMing I've ever heard. Your DM expected you to believe that some toddler goblins overpowered and consumed people? As soon as he told you that a group of cat-sized childern (I don't know exactly how big a goblin child would be) killed multiple people you should have asked "How"? Followed by "Why?" I mean, I imagine that they were being taken care of and fed, so it wasn't like they were starving.

[Lord_Gareth]

I did like the way your story was written Lord Gareth, though I find his frustration a bit much. He had trouble contributing to the fight, which I understand, but basically giving up his paladin powers because it was tough was weird.

The bit I didn't mention (and frankly probably should have) was the fourteen sessions of pretty much That BS in every fight and encounter we had. The Erinyes was just the final straw.

[eggs]

As soon as he told you that a group of cat-sized childern (I don't know exactly how big a goblin child would be) killed multiple people you should have asked "How"? Followed by "Why?"
"Cat-sized" isn't exactly damning when it comes to commoner-murderin'. :smalltongue:

[Waker]

@Lord_Gareth- Ok, I guess if the DM is always pulling stuff to make sure he can't contribute it's a bit more understandable.
@eggs- I said cat-sized, not cats. Unless the goblins were Werecats...

[eggs]

D&D: where a sickly parakeet can one-hit KO most people, should it get the notion. :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

Wait, why did the Paladin fall? Because goblins ate others?

I don't follow. Did he just assume you understood?

[eggs]

It was part knowingly aiding and abetting evil cannibals, part putting more and more food on their plates, part beating up a bunch of white hats while they were white-hatting.

[Oscredwin]

Ah, so the Paladin fell for not killing a bunch of goblin kids.

[Malimar]

Wait, why did the Paladin fall? Because goblins ate others?

I assume it's because he was defending irredeemably Evil cannibalistic goblins against Good nuns trying to punish them for harming innocents. That's, like, three or four different Fall-worthy actions right there.

Really, with a stricter reading of the rules, the Paladin would have fallen when he failed to punish the goblins after they ate the innocent townsfolk the first time.

[Grimsage Matt]

This is why I play evil chacacters. Paladins are fun to mindrape and use sugesstions to minpulate, but losing your class features over trival events:smallsigh:

Still, Paladin of Slaughter your your younger gamer, and Paladin of Tyyrany for your average gamer, and your set.

[Zale]

There once was a Paladin, Noble and True..
Until he trod upon a bug, and knew not what to do..
So fall did he, the Paragon from high..
And to the Blackguards did he apply..

:smallsmile:

Sums up about half of Falls, right there.

[KnightDisciple]

The bit I didn't mention (and frankly probably should have) was the fourteen sessions of pretty much That BS in every fight and encounter we had. The Erinyes was just the final straw.

The one thing that confuses me is that while outside spoilers you said you were the paladin, the actual story was from the perspective of the sorcerer.

That said, it was a fascinating read, and I can sympathize with 3.5 making it hard to feel useful as a Paladin (looking back at my first character, a 3.5 paladin...he basically was only good for attracting enemy attacks :smallfrown:; didn't help the DM was the sort who tended to have it out for the poor guy, hence 4 separate deaths).

I'm hoping that when my Pathfinder group starts the Carrion Crown AP and I play a Paladin there, it's a more rewarding experience.

[Slipperychicken]

The poor balor never had a chance - she took the Great Smiting feat several times, had Spirited Charge and Dire Charge, and was using a valorous lance. The resulting blast left her mostly unscathed, but the wizard's family was dust. She ended up falling hard and spent the next few in-game months doing atonement quests - mostly hostage rescue, culminating in taking a level of gray guard so she could sneak/bluff her way into Dis and rescue wrongly imprisoned souls. We ended up with a paladin who was just as angry at the world... but willing to be subtle about it sometimes.

Consorting with Fiends is an Evil act by RAW.. in fact, allowing them to exist at all is Evil. So the Paladin was actually doing the Good thing by killing the Balor where it stood.

[LordDrakulzen]

Only Paladin I ever had fall was my most recent one.

Paladin/Favored Soul. Gheden, Fire-souled, Aasimar (we're freaks that are more powerful than anyothers, hence our selection as heros)

The world is covered by the Devils that appeared out of nowhere 400 years ago. My party and I were killed in the initial invasion, but saved by the powers of Good, and put in storage until the time was right. We woke up, traveled to the nearest town, Killed the Pitfiend (we're all approx ECL 25 so it was quite easy) who was Lord of the Town, and became Lords and Ladies ourselves. After about 2 days of being in charge a beast appears (the name escapes me, CR 18 from MM3 giant adamantine shell, looks like a squid?) and we kill it! But wait- the death throws have opened a portal into another plane- we all go through, along with 23 commoners of our village.

The DM randomly rolled the plane, outlands... randomly rolls the distance from the Spire... 100 miles... all our magic is useless. 45 days of travel by foot, marching with 23 1st level commoners later, we managed to pick up an entourage of 140(ish) angelic escorts (randomly rolled encounters), while being hunted by 330(ish) evil creatures (randomly rolled encounters after the first 15 angels started marching with us). Opening the Gate to return home was apparently the signal for the demonic attack. after allowing the commoners to return home, my Paladins attention was turned to the remaining 20 opponents. One Holy Word later, they're all destroyed.

The Looooting began... what's this deck of cards? A Deck of Many Things? why I shall draw 3 Cards...

Card 1: Balance- Alignment shifts to CE

Card 2: Jester: Gain 10,000 xp or draw again... I'll Draw again.

Card 2.5: Key: A Luck Blade appears in my hands. (stolen by ally to "examine it" sleight of hand check was approx 50 no one saw it)

Card 3: Ruin: lose all material possessions...

I turn, see my ally with my new sword, the only thing of mine that is still mine- Implosion!
Implosion on my Half-celestial cousin, earthquake on the village that I had just saved!

Fly off into the day to join the ranks of blackguards on other side of country... still lurking out there with extreme dislike of card games

[Lord_Gareth]

To be fair to my DM, Waker, it wasn't done on purpose. The campaign focused on 'classic' enemies (the kind Paladins are supposed to fight) such as undead, necromancers, evil clerics, demons, devils, gargoyles, and dragons.

As you may note by that list, paladins are not equipped to fight ANY of those things. The realization that paladins couldn't even go toe-to-toe with their oldest foes was what really clinched it for me.

[KnightDisciple]

To be fair to my DM, Waker, it wasn't done on purpose. The campaign focused on 'classic' enemies (the kind Paladins are supposed to fight) such as undead, necromancers, evil clerics, demons, devils, gargoyles, and dragons.

As you may note by that list, paladins are not equipped to fight ANY of those things. The realization that paladins couldn't even go toe-to-toe with their oldest foes was what really clinched it for me.

Yeah...

Two of my Paladin's deaths were against "classic foes": A black dragon, and a pit fiend.

The 2nd was worse; I was level 17-19ish, and had taken levels in Shining Blade of Heironeous. I saw the Fiend and spent a round blowing all my relevant buffs. I seriously had like 4-6 buffs running. I charged...and rolled a 2 or something, and totally biffed the hit. Then the Fiend grabbed me and killed me in a round.

Again, in retrospect, I was rather under-equipped. And again, I'm hoping things are better when I play a PF Paladin.

[Waker]

Again, in retrospect, I was rather under-equipped. And again, I'm hoping things are better when I play a PF Paladin.
Someone else's experience might differ from mine, but I enjoyed playing a Paladin in PF. I went with the Sacred Shield and Warrior of the Holy Light archetypes to make something of a tank build with a bit of healing, since my party included a few glass cannons. It was very satisfying when the big bad demon could only hit me on a 20, and if he did try to hit the others I would end up negating a bunch of the damage.

[Lord_Gareth]

Pathfinder bumped the Paladin up to T4, but unless 3.5 content is enabled you're going to (badly) miss Battle Blessing, and you might also miss having the option to take Serenity and that kind of thing. I'd still suggest running a Crusader instead.

[KnightDisciple]

Someone else's experience might differ from mine, but I enjoyed playing a Paladin in PF. I went with the Sacred Shield and Warrior of the Holy Light archetypes to make something of a tank build with a bit of healing, since my party included a few glass cannons. It was very satisfying when the big bad demon could only hit me on a 20, and if he did try to hit the others I would end up negating a bunch of the damage.
I'm almost certainly going to take Warrior of Holy Light. Probably not the other one, though; my current "vision" has him with a big two-handed hammer.


Pathfinder bumped the Paladin up to T4, but unless 3.5 content is enabled you're going to (badly) miss Battle Blessing, and you might also miss having the option to take Serenity and that kind of thing. I'd still suggest running a Crusader instead.
I don't think the DM would accept TOB stuff. He and the others are convinced PF is nigh-perfect, and that Paladins are almost over-powered now. :smallsigh:

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't think the DM would accept TOB stuff. He and the others are convinced PF is nigh-perfect, and that Paladins are almost over-powered now. :smallsigh:

Excuse me while I drag your playgroup out behind a wood shed and shoot them with paintballs until they repent.

[Mari01]

Our DM finally made our paladin fall. My CN rogue (who disdains authority as completely unecessary) has pointed out in character all the shady things he's done. We're playing through second darkness. He's claiming to be a paladin of Iomedae and anytime we encounter an undead it must die. But when we find a ghost his ideals are suddenly different. The island we're on is inhabited by these strange aliens (who make the zombies we so often face), he declared they were a danger to the local populace and had to be exterminated. The island is completely deserted and the things can't tolerate salt-water (being near the beach makes them almost corrode away). Upon finding out that a local CRIME BOSS would pay us 500 gold, he declared it was alien hunting season and that every one we came across had to be taken. This was the last straw for even the DM. I've been telling this player from day one he is the worst paladin ever.

TL;DR Selling dangerous creatures that propagate zombies to a crime lord. That's how our paladin just fell.

[KnightDisciple]

Excuse me while I drag your playgroup out behind a wood shed and shoot them with paintballs until they repent.

Trust me, it's pointless. I've tried to discuss this, but comparative personalities and my slightly meeker face-to-face discussion style/personality means I get bulldozed.

We use Critical Fumbles and everything. :smallfrown:

At any rate, the topic drifts a bit.

My paladin never fell in the metaphorical sense, but he did fall down dead a few times. Let's see if I can get the order right...

1.)Facing a Black Dragon (don't recall size, probably Adult or so). I had Fire Shield on my person, and I tried some tactical maneuvering to get to one side of the beast. My own attacks were ineffective, but the dragon hit me several times, culminating with a tail slap that killed me. My corpse flew through the air and struck a wall, the fire around him winking out. Just as our Hexblade came back into the room; I think he decided to stay out of the fight at that point (he'd been feared by the dragon).

2.)Fighting an Iron Golem in a dungeon. I was low on health, and had backed away from the fight a bit. Before I could get healed up one way or another, a fairly high-level fireball went off. I made the save...but had like 7 HP. Dead again!

3.)Fighting on a ship against a Kraken. I tried to get in close and hack at the tentacles. The tentacles hacked at me....

4.)The fight described above with the Pit Fiend. Several buffs, a biffed attack, and hugged to death. :smallsigh:

I had a very classical setup, with Full Plate and a Greatsword. Did me no good, it felt like.


On the plus side, the next PF campaign for my meatspace game should be set in Ustalav, aka "Undead Land", so that'll be something.
Even better, the DM isn't the kind who loves making Paladins fall for no reason, so he wants to hammer out a Paladin code before play occurs.

I will say as well, while I do appreciate that the Crusader is "Paladin 2.0", I do sort of long for some sort of "in-between" type character, with a few more of the Paladin's signature things like auras and immunities, while still having access to TOB manuevers. Also, not a huge fan of the random way they get back expended moves; I prefer the Warblade method, as it's very straightforward. But that's a minor thing.

[Lord_Gareth]

Eh, the biggest issues re: paladins and undead tends to be that pallies have no native way around damage reduction, incorporeality, and a host of other advantages that the undead have which they use to bludgeon melee types to death. Might I suggest investing in a ghost touch weapon?

[KnightDisciple]

Eh, the biggest issues re: paladins and undead tends to be that pallies have no native way around damage reduction, incorporeality, and a host of other advantages that the undead have which they use to bludgeon melee types to death. Might I suggest investing in a ghost touch weapon?

Yeah, that's going to be high-priority, even if Carrion Crown is lower on the incorporeal wagon.

Council of Thieves all but drips Shades, and it's bloody annoying and tiring after a while. "Oh look, Strength drained. Again. What a shock."

But yeah, probably a Holy Ghost Touch Disrupting Earthbreaker (eventually). :smallbiggrin:

[Janus]

I've been lucky to play with groups that respect paladins (and I've been told that I do a good job at playing one), so my only "falling paladin" stories I have generally come from computer games ("You know, I think I'll save the game and then massacre everyone in Neverwinter :smallbiggrin:").

If you'll permit me, my coworker has a good cleric falling story. He was DMing for his brother, who I believe was actually playing three PCs at the time. One of the PCs was a cleric of St. Cuthbert (who I'm told is huge on oaths and whatnot). The cleric wound up having a one-on-one chat with the BBEG, and they both swore an oath beforehand not to attack one another during this conversation. The BBEG insulted the wizard PC, who happened to be the player's favorite PC. IC, he had the cleric respond, "...I'm going to have to pray about this in the morning" and killed the guy right there.
Yeah, he fell, the player knew he would fall, but it was awesome.

And just because it's related to the topic...
Wizard: Ugh, it's so hot out today!
Rogue: And there's not a cloud in the sky!
Paladin of Heironeous: Indeed, rain would not be disagreeable right now.
Paladin of Pelor: Yeah, if we could at least have some clouds to block the su- *struck by lightning and falls* Oh, what!? WHAT!? :smallfurious:

[whibla]

Eh, the biggest issues re: paladins and undead tends to be that pallies have no native way around damage reduction, incorporeality, and a host of other advantages that the undead have which they use to bludgeon melee types to death. Might I suggest investing in a ghost touch weapon?

There was me thinking that paladins had access to Bless Weapon as a first level spell, i.e. available once they reach 4th level...

And while their turning is not the best, I have never found it to be as overrated as many people seem to think. Maybe I'm just not playing in the 'right' type of game, though.

[Werekat]

The funniest paladin fall story we've ever had was in the campaign aftermath, after the campaign was over. The paladin in question was a follower of Bahamut. He had died, and, cutting a long story short, was revived as a young silver dragon. Bahamut had relieved him of his oaths, knowing pretty well that dragon politics and paladin oaths don't mix well.

The paladin watched one fight, saw the wizard get his face mostly burned off, and decided that he wanted healing powers again.

He fell later, when it was time for him to temporarily marry to produce offspring. Because of some weird draconic game of politics, he had to marry a red dragon.

That was when he realized that you could help the innocent and so on all you wanted, but you marry one red dragon - you willingly associate with evil beings - you fall. :P

[Lord_Gareth]

There was me thinking that paladins had access to Bless Weapon as a first level spell, i.e. available once they reach 4th level...

And while their turning is not the best, I have never found it to be as overrated as many people seem to think. Maybe I'm just not playing in the 'right' type of game, though.

Bless weapon is nice - against things that only have DR/Good. Vampires, werewolves, nightstalkers, liches, hags, shadows, ghosts, wraiths, wights, etc? Yeah, Bless Weapon ain't working on those.

[Novawurmson]

It's not mine, but a long-time 3.5/PF buddy who I was playing with at the time:

Once upon a time, there was an elf who was raised by a tribe of goodly minotaur. This elf was trained in the minotaur arts of battle, as well as their deep devotion to the divine, especially the power of nature, but of light as well.

While travelling with a group of diplomat/adventurers, they came across a ruined mansion full of vampires in which an important map lay. Will the help of a Hide from Undead spell, they were able to infiltrate the building surprisingly easily...until it wore off. Half the party was taken to see some of the leaders of the vampires, but a few excellent bluff rolls by the enterprising rogue (played by myself), meant that they were not in lethal danger - for the time being.

Tensions began to rise during the discussions, and the battle-loving paladin decided it was time to strike. He charged the enormous hellhound that the vampires kept as a pet, dealing a serious blow.

Then it bit him in half.

His party was barely able to take a fraction of his body to resurrect him later.

While he was dead, he had strange visions, as the gods of the world tested him to see if he was worthy to return to life. He eventually passed each of them, and through the work of his party in the world, he returned - alive, but changed.

For passing the god's tests raised his arrogance to new heights; he came to believe that he was superior to the gods, and that they no longer deserved his worship. He turned his back on them and became a blackguard, serving only his own desires.

Needless to say, the DM was not pleased XD

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The funniest paladin fall story we've ever had was in the campaign aftermath, after the campaign was over. The paladin in question was a follower of Bahamut. He had died, and, cutting a long story short, was revived as a young silver dragon. Bahamut had relieved him of his oaths, knowing pretty well that dragon politics and paladin oaths don't mix well.

The paladin watched one fight, saw the wizard get his face mostly burned off, and decided that he wanted healing powers again.

He fell later, when it was time for him to temporarily marry to produce offspring. Because of some weird draconic game of politics, he had to marry a red dragon.

That was when he realized that you could help the innocent and so on all you wanted, but you marry one red dragon - you willingly associate with evil beings - you fall. :P

That's strange, usually in dragon politics, mixing colors is an act of abomination that can get both parties exiled. Why did a Silver dragon have to marry a Red dragon? I mean, basic alignment incompatibilities aside, there's the little matter of elemental incompatibility (Silver is Cold wheras Red is Fire, be a bit hard to move into his magma cavern filled lair, for example).

[huttj509]

In This Thread: There can be a world of difference between "you fall" and "I fall."

[Doxkid]

And just because it's related to the topic...
Wizard: Ugh, it's so hot out today!
Rogue: And there's not a cloud in the sky!
Paladin of Heironeous: Indeed, rain would not be disagreeable right now.
Paladin of Pelor: Yeah, if we could at least have some clouds to block the su- *struck by lightning and falls* Oh, what!? WHAT!? :smallfurious:

He deserved that one for worshiping a crappy deity. Pelor may be the big sun god of D&D, but he ain't no Celestia.

[Yukitsu]

"I'm not sure about the moral implications of spending the night with a succubus just for redemption purposes. Why can't I just talk to it again?"
"Well, you two can just each go your separate ways come morning, get yourselves some morning after treatments."
"Thanks. :smallannoyed:"

[Techwarrior]

This? Not so much.

Huh? I willingly, and in full knowledge of the danger, led an innocent child to their doom. How is that not an evil act? Maybe not a cool story, but I still fell, 100%.

[bobthe6th]

And just because it's related to the topic...
Wizard: Ugh, it's so hot out today!
Rogue: And there's not a cloud in the sky!
Paladin of Heironeous: Indeed, rain would not be disagreeable right now.
Paladin of Pelor: Yeah, if we could at least have some clouds to block the su- *struck by lightning and falls* Oh, what!? WHAT!? :smallfurious:

psh, paladins of slaughter should get used to falling like that. the demon lord pelor is fickle.

[bobthe6th]

Huh? I willingly, and in full knowledge of the danger, led an innocent child to their doom. How is that not an evil act? Maybe not a cool story, but I still fell, 100%.

you told the kid to get out, and made the best effort to do so. the kids own choices led to the death... actually the proper response would have been to gut the thief, as it had pushed the kid to stay and armed it in a insufficient manner. The smile of mockery converting to horror is always worth it, especially with a full attack of smites.

[killianh]

our party had teleported to an Egypt-style ruined temple in the middle of the desert. It was me, a rogue, a cleric, and a wizard hunting for a lich. We've been working on this campaign for almost a year by this point and this temple was to be the "mid-point" of our adventures.

After three three hour long sessions we finally reached the main chamber with the lich and all of his buddies. It was a long fight and just when we were about to finish him activated a trap to collapse the room with us in it, which would have meant we died and he would have come back (he was guarding his phylactery in the next room). I decided to stand my ground and hold him off so the others could escape. They made it out of the room and me and the lich fell into what seemed to be a bottomless pit.

Luckily it wasn't and my feather fall amulet activated. With just me and the lich standing here I prepared to attack. The lich put up a wall of force and asked to talk. We talked for a good while with him trying to show me the pointlessness of fighting him when it would only mean both of our deaths in the pit, yet only my death permanently. After a while I agreed to apprentice under him and gain power through him. With that the DM gave me full blackguard levels for my paladin levels and I was teleported back upstairs to the rest of the party.

They noticed nothing different about me. I slaughtered the wizard with a full attack then made quick work of the cleric. After that I grabbed the remaining rations and water and tossed them down the hole and walked out, leaving the rogue to starve and die. Campaign over.

[Werekat]

That's strange, usually in dragon politics, mixing colors is an act of abomination that can get both parties exiled. Why did a Silver dragon have to marry a Red dragon? I mean, basic alignment incompatibilities aside, there's the little matter of elemental incompatibility (Silver is Cold wheras Red is Fire, be a bit hard to move into his magma cavern filled lair, for example).

Shneeky, it was some sort of eugenics experiment, with the elder parties being particularly interested in whether there are actual ways to avoid the elemental incompatibility and in seeing whether anything interesting would come of the union. There was a lot of fluff homebrew going on. :D

[Golden Ladybug]

My first DM, who only ever ran one campaign while I played with him, went to some effort to get my friend's character to fall. A laid back and polite Dwarf Paladin of Heironeous, Muran Thundershield was a true hero throughout the game. Spared the lives of others in the Gladiatorial Arena, beat up bad guys, made friends with Epic Level characters who were just sitting in a bar, staunchly fought against evil and defeated 42 Orcs, all the while never using any of his class features besides Smite Evil.

This went on until the BBEG appeared, almost out of nowhere, riding four Tarrasques. Yeah, I know.

Then, evil Epic Level Sorcerer BBEG cackles maniacally and tells us that he's impressed by our skills (we're level 5-ish at the time), and wants us to join him in his quest to evilly take over the universe. He offers us Tarrasque mounts if we join him.

Muran, as you would expect, tells him to go stick his head up a badger, and we swiftly retreat into the nearby forest. The DM later told us he'd been shocked that we hadn't accepted the offer.

Then we got mindraped by a million Illithids.

Some people just aren't very good DMs :smallfrown:


They noticed nothing different about me. I slaughtered the wizard with a full attack then made quick work of the cleric. After that I grabbed the remaining rations and water and tossed them down the hole and walked out, leaving the rogue to starve and die. Campaign over.

...

I...I just... :smallsigh:

Why would you do that?

[North_Ranger]

"That all those innocents died by my action is a sin which I am still attempting to atone for. Not to regain my palidancy, which is beyond redemption for the willing act which so violated my oath, but for the sanctity of my own soul. It is a heavy burden to bear. But I bear it gladly.

Would I do it again? Yes I would. That foul necromancer was growing in power daily, and his bargain was a fool's one. He would have slaughtered them anyways for his own nefarious purposes, and then gone on to continue being a canker sore on the kingdom, growing in power until almost no one could stop him.

By doing so, I shed innocent blood, but I saved far more. Who knows how many others would have fallen. Every day, the number of victims he would have claimed but will not climb. Perhaps that is not true, no one can truly say what might have been. But at the very least, the count would be far greater than those who fell on that day.

A paladin is expected to lay down his life for his honor, in the defense of the people. If he can sacrifice his life in order to save a village... it is fit that he should do so, and his name will live on, his honor unbesmirched.

I sacrificed my paladinhood to save untold innocents. It may well be a harder sacrifice to make, because the question of honor becomes much more difficult.

I may not have made the proper choice, but I believe I made the right one. I chose for the greater good than for my personal well being. That, I believe, is the essence of being a Paladin."

----

"What is the point of a sacrifice if it is undone? Let me keep my past, it will help me reforge my future."

That... that was beautiful, sir. That is one of if not the best versions of playing a paladin I have ever seen, not to mention a tale of tragedy and beauty.

*sniff*

Excuse me, I think I have something in my eye...

[North_Ranger]

Also, my own attempts at playing a paladin or a paladin-like class have been rather... fall-eriffic.

Both examples are from Scarred Lands, GMed by the same person:

Athel Redthorn, a ranger who had left his Titan-serving tribe of plainsmen to serve Tanil, the goddess of the hunt, eventually found in him a deeper calling. Wishing to serve his goddess, he went to the woods to fast and meditate, returning to the party with a wolf animal companion and his first level in Holy Liberator (essentially a CG paladin).

However, the very next day his father, whom he had not seen in many years, comes to the city looking for him. Knowing his father disapproves of his new faith, Athel nonetheless wishes to show proper respect to his elder and allows him to enter the temple grounds...

...and the GM tells me I just lost not only all of my Holy Liberator talents but also almost all of my ranger abilities for allowing a Titanspawn to enter hallowed ground.

He never got his chance for atonement because the party disbanded soon after due to player-GM disagreements :smallfrown:

A few years later...

Scarred Lands again, this time modified for 4th edition.

Remembering how our GM bemoaned the fact that none of the players picked a paladin last time (seeing as how we were basically on a quest for Mithril, basically the city of paladins), I decided to oblige him and rolled Vashir Bronze-Scales, a devout dragonborn paladin of Corean. He proved to be somewhat less optimal with his fighting skills, but I still liked playing him.

Until one day on the road the party rogue managed to provoke a lurking balhannoth - a level 13 aberration when the group was 4th/5th level. We all tried to run away, but being the most heavily armored and therefore the slowest, Vashir ended up as canned food.

I have serious suspicions that the GM just didn't like me.

[whibla]

Bless weapon is nice - against things that only have DR/Good. Vampires, werewolves, nightstalkers, liches, hags, shadows, ghosts, wraiths, wights, etc? Yeah, Bless Weapon ain't working on those.

Bold Really? Bless weapon - "is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of bypassing the damage reduction of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures."

As for the rest, if you consider monsters with DR x/Bludgeoning or DR x/Silver to be a class breaker I would have to question why you're not carrying around a mace (aso a valid target for bless weapon, or undead bane weapon, or both) or either a silver weapon or a bottle or two of Silversheen. In addition I'm sure there is a paladin spell in one of the supplements that allows them to count their normal weapon as silver for the duration, though I confess my memory is failing me on the name of it atm.

I don't think anyone would argue that paladins are anything but lukewarm at best on the 'uber-scale', but suggesting they can't even hit undead without help is nothing short of ridiculous.

[Bharg]

Allow me to tell you the tail of Sir Theodius of Mourngallow, and his fall from paladinhood.

He was chasing down a nefarious and irredeemable villian already sentenced to death by the local nobility for crimes to obscene to mention in polite company. A necromancer of some power, completely lacking any shred of morality or decency.

When they finally cornered him and dispatched his now re-deceased minions, Sir Theodius announced that this villian had already been sentenced to death, and that he would now execute that sentence, having been ordained by his order and deputized by the noble for that purpose.

When he raised his blade for the death stroke, the necromnancer spoke out

"Wait! Through my arts, I have linked my life with that of the entire village. Slay me, and you will also slay every last man, woman, and child within a day's walk. Their innocent blood will be on your hands."

Sir Theo paused a moment to reflect on the situation. True, many innocents would die if he struck the villian. That was a sin, and a violation of the oaths he took when he joined the Order to protect the innocent.

And knowing full well that he would be fall for it, he struck the blade home.

When asked why, he responded thusly:

"That all those innocents died by my action is a sin which I am still attempting to atone for. Not to regain my palidancy, which is beyond redemption for the willing act which so violated my oath, but for the sanctity of my own soul. It is a heavy burden to bear. But I bear it gladly.

Would I do it again? Yes I would. That foul necromancer was growing in power daily, and his bargain was a fool's one. He would have slaughtered them anyways for his own nefarious purposes, and then gone on to continue being a canker sore on the kingdom, growing in power until almost no one could stop him.

By doing so, I shed innocent blood, but I saved far more. Who knows how many others would have fallen. Every day, the number of victims he would have claimed but will not climb. Perhaps that is not true, no one can truly say what might have been. But at the very least, the count would be far greater than those who fell on that day.

A paladin is expected to lay down his life for his honor, in the defense of the people. If he can sacrifice his life in order to save a village... it is fit that he should do so, and his name will live on, his honor unbesmirched.

I sacrificed my paladinhood to save untold innocents. It may well be a harder sacrifice to make, because the question of honor becomes much more difficult.

I may not have made the proper choice, but I believe I made the right one. I chose for the greater good than for my personal well being. That, I believe, is the essence of being a Paladin."

He continued in his journeys after that, even though his Order cast him out of their ranks. He retained his knighthood, since his action was not illegal, and was last seen practicing a discipline called "Devoted Spirit". He was even offered a Psychic Reformation to assist him in that path, but he declined.

"What is the point of a sacrifice if it is undone? Let me keep my past, it will help me reforge my future."

Aand why didn't he just capture him? :smallconfused:

[Necroticplague]

I personally don't play paladins because I don't like my actions being restricted that much, but a person I know likes to play them. He typically ends up falling for associating with my characters. We've managed to keep this from becoming too frequent by me using odd forms of subtlety (i.e., using haunt shift on any undead I make, claim I know how to animate objects), and him making characters too dumb to figure out I'm evil (i.e., I go missing on the same night the king goes crazy and starts killing everyone he sees, he can't see a connection).

[Lord_Gareth]

Bold Really? Bless weapon - "is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of bypassing the damage reduction of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures."

Mmhmm. That +1 bonus gives it a 50% miss chance instead of a certainty that it can never hit. A 50% miss chance is a fair bet that aforementioned monster is going to tear you to shreds.

Additionally, paladins have no native immunities or answers to undead tricks such as save-or-die, the item-smashing of the Nightstalker (or, actually, the ANYTHING of the Nightstalker and its kin, which are vicious foes that melee simply cannot fight), devourers, mummy rot, ability damage (ability DRAIN), et cetera. There was a thread on here awhile back that explored the "Paladin vs. Undead" thing much further, and believe you me - the Paladin was found wanting.

[Lord_Gareth]

Aand why didn't he just capture him? :smallconfused:

You come up with a method to capture a level nine or higher wizard alive. Go on. We'd all love to know how this feat is accomplished by characters of an equivalent level.

[Bharg]

You come up with a method to capture a level nine or higher wizard alive. Go on. We'd all love to know how this feat is accomplished by characters of an equivalent level.

I dunno... Maybe beat him unconscious and take his book?

[Daftendirekt]

I dunno... Maybe beat him unconscious and take his book?

Good luck beating him up before he teleports away.

[Bharg]

Good luck beating him up before he teleports away.

But if he could smite him ded, couldn't he also smite him unconscious?

[KnightDisciple]

I personally don't play paladins because I don't like my actions being restricted that much, but a person I know likes to play them. He typically ends up falling for associating with my characters. We've managed to keep this from becoming too frequent by me using odd forms of subtlety (i.e., using haunt shift on any undead I make, claim I know how to animate objects), and him making characters too dumb to figure out I'm evil (i.e., I go missing on the same night the king goes crazy and starts killing everyone he sees, he can't see a connection).
This is going to sound weird, but...
Why doesn't one of you two make an OOC compromise?
Why don't you not play horrifically evil characters who fool paladins into thinking they're not evil? Why not play a True Neutral Wizard with a focus in something else, who just likes magic and doesn't murder people?
Alternatively, why doesn't he play an intelligent non-good character, so he doesn't have to worry about discovering you, as well as constantly making Paladins look terrible because he apparently couldn't spot the broad side of a barn, or then figure out that it was a barn and not a housecat.

Seriously, "I'm super-evil, but the paladin's so dumb he doesn't notice" is a terrible method of dealing with this issue.

I personally can't conceive why people go through such shenanigans when the obvious answer is for one of them to compromise so there's no potential conflict in the first place. :smallconfused:


Mmhmm. That +1 bonus gives it a 50% miss chance instead of a certainty that it can never hit. A 50% miss chance is a fair bet that aforementioned monster is going to tear you to shreds.

Additionally, paladins have no native immunities or answers to undead tricks such as save-or-die, the item-smashing of the Nightstalker (or, actually, the ANYTHING of the Nightstalker and its kin, which are vicious foes that melee simply cannot fight), devourers, mummy rot, ability damage (ability DRAIN), et cetera. There was a thread on here awhile back that explored the "Paladin vs. Undead" thing much further, and believe you me - the Paladin was found wanting.Minor point: I think mummy rot is eventually covered via Immunity to Disease.
*Checks D&D 3.5 Hypertext SRD*
Yep. Divine Health makes mummy rot a non-issue.
The closest "coverage" for the rest is their solid saves, but typically Fort's going to be highest anyways, Will is a bit of a crapshoot (can't be too low since 3.5 Pallys need it for spells), and Reflex is just less bad.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But if he could smite him ded, couldn't he also smite him unconscious?

He was Necropolitian, and thus immune to nonlethal damage, as well as most other forms of subduing him that we had.

Go back a page, I already went over this.

[Necroticplague]

This is going to sound weird, but...
Why doesn't one of you two make an OOC compromise?
Why don't you not play horrifically evil characters who fool paladins into thinking they're not evil? Why not play a True Neutral Wizard with a focus in something else, who just likes magic and doesn't murder people?
Alternatively, why doesn't he play an intelligent non-good character, so he doesn't have to worry about discovering you, as well as constantly making Paladins look terrible because he apparently couldn't spot the broad side of a barn, or then figure out that it was a barn and not a housecat.

He likes to be a paladin, and somehow doesn't mind when he falls. Besides, the types of characters I like are forced to be evil by the mechanical constraints of the system, and, as I said, I don't really like limiting my options too much, so I inevitably end up evil if I don't start there. Besides, you seem to automatically assuming he is incredibly stupid, and I'm obvious. Like I said, I'm subtle. The level of stupidity is "doesn't know what a possessed person looks like" not "can't tell difference between barn and housecat". Also, these "shenanigans" are something I find fun, kind of like Paranoia.

[HunterColt22]

He likes to be a paladin, and somehow doesn't mind when he falls. Besides, the types of characters I like are forced to be evil by the mechanical constraints of the system, and, as I said, I don't really like limiting my options too much, so I inevitably end up evil if I don't start there. Besides, you seem to automatically assuming he is incredibly stupid, and I'm obvious. Like I said, I'm subtle. The level of stupidity is "doesn't know what a possessed person looks like" not "can't tell difference between barn and housecat". Also, these "shenanigans" are something I find fun, kind of like Paranoia.

...

Not to be extremely rude but the answer you gave is more of a cop-out to what he asked you rather than answering it directly. I don't think the game ever really forces someone mechanically to be evil. Yes it makes you preform grey acts but you yourself decide to take it to that extreme of evil or good. Besides playing neutral is rather easy. One of my friends is playing a Sea Elf druid right now, and thus he is neutral. He has done some very annoying things, such as setting off a trap, I the rouge, just barely got past, just for laughs. Another time he has saved me from freezing to death. How was all this decided you ask, dice roll to determine if he would do good by the party or not. Also limiting you options mechanically and being fresh out of ideas are very different things. Our Paladin has placed pitons and and leather throngs across one of our own party members rooms on a ship once just because she was in there not being social and refusing to communicate like an adult to others in the party as to why she hated another person in our town. :l

[SanguisAevum]

Please find below a RP exchange between myself (the Dm) and one of my players. From an earlier campaign we played.

Said player had been playing his Paladin, Ranos The White, since first level, and was now approaching 15th level.

During this stage of the campaign, it was revealed that all along, "Anna" the noblewoman the group had been working for was actually a vampire queen, and that she had been manipulating them into destroying her rivals, and sometimes even innocents. During this time, the character had developed an affectionate relationship with "Anna" and so was utterly conflicted when he found out and so retired to his room to consider the situation, and pray for guidence.

"Anna" decided to intervene, and forced the issue on him with the aid of subtle magic.

(Please excuse any grammer / spelling. It was written and recorded a long time ago, and i have not yet got round to editing it)

Death and Birth

DM
You are in you room the first night back from your latest trip. You retired with a mind full of turmoil. The recent "revelations" combined with the possibility of getting homset your thoughts racing.

It seems the items you all carry are the key to your goal. Somehow, they will allow you access to those that tricked you into this hellish situation in the first place.

Unfortunatly, you are missing the last... that accursed staff. Rumours suggest it is currently in the possession of a bieng called "The burning Eye"

If "Anna's" words are the truth, you will undoubtedly need to retrieve it.

The Dagger, the Staff, the Diamond, and the unholy abomination that you feel tugging at your soul ... all linked to your and your companions destiny.

You are brought from reverie by the sound of your door opening...

Ranos Player
I stand and see who is in the doorway

DM
It is Anna, she is smiling softly, and enters the room. Closing the door behind her, she stands at the end of the bed.

"I think we need to Talk Ranos. About many, many things..."

Ranos Player
I invite her to sit on the chair, I sit down on the bed.

I think casting protection spells is inappropriate now so I say a silent prayer to heronious to protect me and hope he is listening

"What can I do for you my Lady?"

DM
"First and foremost. I sense a certain animosity recently. That compounded with the question asked of me earlier today... worries me somewhat"

She pauses for a second.

"Secondly... The soul reaver... it is needed to destroy the two brothers and return you all home, however, i sense it is "uncomfortable" for you to bear in this way... i can help you there Ranos my dear..."

Did she just edge forward in the chair a little?

Ranos Player
"As far as I am aware the only way to separate me from the sword is to bring about my death, and should that happen my soul would be lost forever. I am not yet willing to relinquish my life needlessly for a cause I am unsure of".

I eye my sword and armour in the corner of the room and silently curse myself for not protecting myself in her home

"Regarding animosity, you must understand that the possibility I may be working for something I would call a ruthless undead creature goes against my very being. I could not expect you to understand my faith or my calling, or the strictures I must follow in order to remain at one with my God, but imagine being associated with something it is in your very nature to destroy.... the feelings I have about you are uncomfortable and confusing. I have a great respect for you and your achievements, and yet....."

I let the rest of the sentence go unfinished

"If you wish for me to leave, then ask it of me and I will go."

DM
Anna chuckles...

"I will let you into a secret my dear" she says softly "Simply because it no longer matters. This must be addressed now, before my plans are set in motion"

She rests back in the chair, almost nonchalantly. Her dress rides up her leg somwhat, and her soft hand comes to rest upon her knee.

"My name, Is Lady Kittanna DeLatria. I am over 2 and a half thousand years old, On numerous worlds i am considered a godess, I am immortal, i walk the planes, and those that know me, tremble"

She stands

"I command demon princes!, devils!, and armies too large to count!. I have destroyed worlds, realities and countless lives, but yet i have also created worlds, realities and countless lives."

She takes a step towards you

"I am the night, i am the darkness in your soul, i am the scream of every dieing mortal, and i... am... eternal!"

Her eyes blaze with power as she stands, a preditory smile on her perfect lips.

And then her demenour softens once more.

"Yet despite all this, there is something i do not understand Ranos "the white" Why, with your commen sense, and wisdom, do you place your faith in a faceless entity, one you will never touch, see, or feel. one who has foresaken you long ago?"

the last sentence is said with venom and comtempt... she stands in front of you waiting.

Ranos Player
I stay seated but ready myself to make a run for my sword should it be needed. I do my best to remain calm in the face of death.

"My God has not forsaken me. Had he done so the effects would have been obvious immediately. My magic would fail me, my companion would have deserted me. I am what I am because of who I am, and because of the fact that my god is with me. Without my god I would become nothing, a mere fighter.... worthless"

looks downfallen for a moment as if wrestling with some inner emotion....

"If you are to kill me then do so, you can see I am unarmed and unprotected, what you would call an easy kill...."

DM
"Oh but he has Ranos!"

She looks directly at you.

"Think about the things you have done... about what you are doing this very second! Talking to a Vampire Queen! There was a time you would not have even needed proof! the very rumour would have had you charging forwards with your sword in hand... Ranos The white."

She chuckles

"Do you REALLY think the lord of Valor would still smile upon one such that you have become?. You walk the path Ranos, you walk the path of your destiny... your power flows not from the crusader... but from MY master. From the moment you chose to serve me... kill without question..."work" in this twisted place, your choice was clear..."

She pauses and waves a hand. A shimmering image apears. It is you, in your youth.

You stand atop a hill, silver armour glittering in the sun, white cape billowing sideways. An aura of noblity is projected forth by you. At your side is your faithful mount, The tiger, a regal soft glow surrounds it.

"Look at yourself... but see the truth Ranos "the white" See yourself as others on the worlds you have visited see you... see yourself as you are perceved by those you have destroyed.

Slowly the image distorts... The silver of your armour fades to grey... then a lightless menacing black. Red pinpricks of light appear behind the visor of your helm. the aura of nobility, slowly changes... it grows sinister, an aura of menace. At the same time, the cat at your side changes... it twists and writhes... before long it is a man... long white hair and dark clothes. With dark glow, slowly he fades away, smiling grimly.

You are left, like an image from a nightmare standing as a lord of darkness... blood red cape swept sideways by the howling wind.

"THIS is your calling Ranos, this is what you were meant, and have chosen, to be. I offer you a god you can touch, taste and even talk to. And better still... it is forever!"

Ranos Player
I stands angrily, shouting

"I will not desert my God! This is all lies! lies!

My God is here with me! I can feel him, I can feel his power!"

Runs over to his sword, grabs it and turns pointing it at Kittanna with a shaking hand

"You are a dark deceiver! You show me dark images of things that cannot be! I will not believe this!"

Tears start to fall freely down my face, my greatest fear seems as though it is coming true.

"my god is real!"

DM
"Really? Then prove it!"

She folds her arms.

"Use you magic to "heal" me. If your god still smiles upon you, his will should burn my immortal flesh... no?"

Ranos Player
Drops the sword with a clatter and strides over to Kittanna

"This will hurt.... a lot"

I place my hands on her shoulders and call upon the powers of Heronious to heal her (should heal 84 hit points)

DM
The sword clatters on the floor.

Purposefully you stride forth, arm outstreched.

"This will hurt... a lot"

Your hand falls onto her perfect flesh, with all your might you will the power forward. Tears stream down your face as you call upon the lord of valor to make his pressence know to this evil witch.

There is no answer.

Lady Kittanna DeLatria smiles wryly at you.

"My father, will not let you hurt me, my dear."

Now, desist with ths foolishness. You KNOW what has happened, and you are fully aware of the choices you have made.

Your confusion is no longer relevant. Now you must choose.

You continue to walk the path you have chosen, granted this may seem daunting, and goes against everything you believe at the moment. But i guarentee, all will be clear soon.

The alternative is not as pleasent. Please Ranos, dont make me destroy you... you are destined for great things... do not throw it away.

Ranos Player
"But I tried! I tried so hard to be good!

I didn't know, I was deceived.... I.... I failed"

slumps to the floor with tears streaming down his face

"I failed"

looks up at the dark lady

"Why did he desert me? What must I do? Help me.....please....."

DM
She smiles soflty.

"Turn and kneel before me Ranos, so that you face away from me"

Ranos Player
Still kneeling he turns away from Kitana and weeps softly

DM
"Father!" She declares

"In the name of the clan i bring this one to you."

You feel her hands slide over your shoulders and pull you back, she is kneeling behind you.

"Freely he accepts his destiny, i ask you to watch over his birth and offer your dark blessing."

A distortion appears before you, as you start to focus on it, a sharp pain tears through your neck and down your back.

Slowly the dark lady drinks from you, all the while the distortion grows into a familiar shape, The White haired man, eyes betraying the wisdom and knowledge of eternity. He stands, no expression on his face.


Then, your world starts to fade. things start to turn grey. and your focus starts to fail. Your life is ending, at the very end you catch a glimpse of "something" an image or phantom of a man, stood behind the White haired one.

He stands, in a suite of full plate, a vast greatsword rests, tip in the ground, his hands crossed on the pommel.

A look of profound sorrow adorns his face as he looks down on you. The last thing you see with mortal eyes, is the crusader, the lord of valor.. Your ex-god turning slowly and walking away from you. Shaking his head, and weeping for another lost son.


The black fades back to grey, then colour.

Before you, stands A being who's pressence is awsome. The fury of dark creation flows though him. He looks on you and speaks with the voice of ages past.

"Arise... Ranos the Black, arise and be free to follow your destiny without doubt or regret."

"But father..." interjects Kittanna

"Silence child" he replies, there is no room for question "This one will not be yours to command. He will act of his own volition, you have other toys to amuse yourself with. No... he must follow his own path... your guideance would be well heeded Dark lady, but you will not be his master"

"As you wish", she offers, head bowed

As your senses return, you notice a difference... oh yes... this is going to be interesting!

"My daughter will councel you soon... for now.. grow accustomed to your new gift. What you reveal or do not reveal to others, is your own affair, i trust you will use your own judgement."

He pauses and starts to fade.

"Be well my son... but above all... Ranos The Black... be strong!"

And so was born, "Ranos the Black" A vampire lord / blackguard, who went on to become the main villain of the campaign, and the greatest threat the players ever faced.

He was also once, one of their greatest friends.

[bobthe6th]

...

Not to be extremely rude but the answer you gave is more of a cop-out to what he asked you rather than answering it directly. I don't think the game ever really forces someone mechanically to be evil. Yes it makes you preform grey acts but you yourself decide to take it to that extreme of evil or good. Besides playing neutral is rather easy. One of my friends is playing a Sea Elf druid right now, and thus he is neutral. He has done some very annoying things, such as setting off a trap, I the rouge, just barely got past, just for laughs. Another time he has saved me from freezing to death. How was all this decided you ask, dice roll to determine if he would do good by the party or not. Also limiting you options mechanically and being fresh out of ideas are very different things. Our Paladin has placed pitons and and leather throngs across one of our own party members rooms on a ship once just because she was in there not being social and refusing to communicate like an adult to others in the party as to why she hated another person in our town. :l

a)yes it does, necromancy is a pain... most of the fun spells are evil only, therefore evil acts.
b)that is... no longer real roleplaying. you just roll your actions... thats not neutral, thats a RNG, or just being insane. neutral is not strongly alined with either side, but still socially functional.

[HunterColt22]

a)yes it does, necromancy is a pain... most of the fun spells are evil only, therefore evil acts.
b)that is... no longer real roleplaying. you just roll your actions... thats not neutral, thats a RNG, or just being insane. neutral is not strongly alined with either side, but still socially functional.

No it's not. First of all it causes pain yes but so does the fireball spell :smallmad:, are you telling me that is evil as well? Or how about scorching ray, or one of the million of other spells that are meant to destroy, cause harm or break your opponents defenses down, are you telling me that all of those are evil as well, and thus evil acts? I don't buy that, sorry.

Secondly the guy has issues roleplaying fully so this is a way for him to compensate for that by seeming impartial in a matter. Also have you not seen some people make a life decision on the flip of a coin? Granted I admit that it is not an involved roleplaying manner but it is still staying neutral in a subject on something if one is unsure on which way to go or just nonchalantly caring about an issue.

[The Random NPC]

No it's not. First of all it causes pain yes but so does the fireball spell :smallmad:, are you telling me that is evil as well? Or how about scorching ray, or one of the million of other spells that are meant to destroy, cause harm or break your opponents defenses down, are you telling me that all of those are evil as well, and thus evil acts? I don't buy that, sorry.

Secondly the guy has issues roleplaying fully so this is a way for him to compensate for that by seeming impartial in a matter. Also have you not seen some people make a life decision on the flip of a coin? Granted I admit that it is not an involved roleplaying manner but it is still staying neutral in a subject on something if one is unsure on which way to go or just nonchalantly caring about an issue.

It isn't that Necromancy causes pain and is therefor evil, Necromancy is evil and is therefor a pain.

[Necroticplague]

No it's not. First of all it causes pain yes but so does the fireball spell :smallmad:, are you telling me that is evil as well? Or how about scorching ray, or one of the million of other spells that are meant to destroy, cause harm or break your opponents defenses down, are you telling me that all of those are evil as well, and thus evil acts? I don't buy that, sorry.

Animating dead is evil because all the spells that do it have the [evil] tag. Nothing to do with their effects, it's simply their nature for some odd reason. Also, a lot of really fun stuff is evil-only, like demonic grafts (or the process of acquiring materials for most grafts), vile feats (which gives you mind blank,natural attacks, some useful SLAs, reach, and boosts intimidate) , fiend of possession, soul eater, fiend of corruption, black blood cultist, animating undead, properly (ab)using taint, using haunting presences, and many pragmatic things are evil, though not Evil (spreading diseases, using poisons, excessive use of mind control, torture, making deals with devils, using speak with dead as a substitute for gather information, brutal shows of force, underhanded assassinations disguised as a duel).

[ThiagoMartell]

Animating dead is evil because all the spells that do it have the [evil] tag. Nothing to do with their effects, it's simply their nature for some odd reason. Also, a lot of really fun stuff is evil-only, like demonic grafts (or the process of acquiring materials for most grafts), vile feats (which gives you mind blank,natural attacks, some useful SLAs, reach, and boosts intimidate) , fiend of possession, soul eater, fiend of corruption, black blood cultist, animating undead, properly (ab)using taint, using haunting presences, and many pragmatic things are evil, though not Evil (spreading diseases, using poisons, excessive use of mind control, torture, making deals with devils, using speak with dead as a substitute for gather information, brutal shows of force, underhanded assassinations disguised as a duel).
Man, if you don't think spreading diseases, torture, making deals with devils and assassinating people are evil... there is something very wrong with you.

[JoeYounger]

This and a lot of the stories in this thread just sound like jerk DMs looking to bully players. You're going to seriously argue that the gods would take away the powers of a paladin over something behind him that he had no idea was happening? I seriously would have just walked out right there.

You have no idea how right you are. I wasn't playing a paly, but I was playing a VoP monk when we were fighting a group of balors. My monk went for the disarm and I rolled well and disarmed the balor. But since I took the balors magic sword I broke my vow of poverty. W. T. F...

[ThiagoMartell]

You have no idea how right you are. I wasn't playing a paly, but I was playing a VoP monk when we were fighting a group of balors. My monk went for the disarm and I rolled well and disarmed the balor. But since I took the balors magic sword I broke my vow of poverty. W. T. F...

This is simply wrong, VoP specifically doesn't work like that. Talk about a lousy DM.

[whibla]

This is simply wrong, VoP specifically doesn't work like that. Talk about a lousy DM.

Actually, if he tried to use the sword it does:

"Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons,..."

I had the same thing happen to me once, when I used the Frog God's sword to steal his immortality / invulnerability, as this was the only way to kill him. Such is the nature of the beast...

At least my DM did relent and allow me to atone for my 'crime' a session or two later, via a bit of divine intervention (on top of my continuing to follow the vow - bar that single lapse, despite having lost all the benefits).

[Deepbluediver]

This and a lot of the stories in this thread just sound like jerk DMs looking to bully players. You're going to seriously argue that the gods would take away the powers of a paladin over something behind him that he had no idea was happening? I seriously would have just walked out right there.

If you have no control over it, you shouldn't fall for it. That's ridiculous. Not to mention that since the DM is controlling the plot, then basically, the DM just arbitrarily decided you're not a paladin anymore, such as by having a child run into a room and die.

QFT

DM's essentially forcing paladins into no-win situations is IMO, the root cause of players becoming paranoid and going to ridiculous lengths to fulfill the letter of the law rather than the spirit, leading the other party members to hate them. Whatever happened to mercy, justice, understanding, and forgiveness being qualities that good-aligned entities embody? The reaction of "something completely not your fault that you where only tangentially involved with is now going to screw you over" would be much more believable from an EVIL diety.

Personally, I think that anyone who wants to play a paladin (or any other class with a similar alignment-related code or oath) should discuss it with their DM ahead of time so that both parties understand what the intent of the other is. Personally, I don't start playing a paladin because I secretly want to play a Blackguard.
Forcing characters to make difficult choices can be a fun and memorable aspect of the game, but building a no-win situation that really only affects one player is like a personal version of "rocks fall everyone dies".

My response to such a scenario would probably be something like: Oh, so I've comitted some horrible act and lost my paladin powers now? My character can no longer live with himself; he falls upon his blade in ritual suicide. This means I need to make a new character, right? Hand me the PHB, please...FYI, I hope none of your NPC's are attached to little things like breathing or having a pulse.

[Necroticplague]

Man, if you don't think spreading diseases, torture, making deals with devils and assassinating people are evil... there is something very wrong with you.

They are evil, and they are also incredibly useful and expedient, that's the point I'm trying to make.

[KnightDisciple]

They are evil, and they are also incredibly useful and expedient, that's the point I'm trying to make.

...I'm not sure how it's more expedient than non-evil spells, really.

I mean, D&D is pretty good about making things pretty evenly split when it comes to the power levels of outsiders, good or evil. Or you can have elementals and genies and such help you out.

As for diseases and torture, I'm not sure what use they are for most adventures that aren't "kill a country's population" or "take over a city" or something.

Between spells that let you read minds and things like Zone of Truth, there are plenty of non-evil solutions.

Now, that all said, I guess sure the Evil route is quicker, but that's probably not a huge time margin, and I'd say there's no real difference in effectiveness.

This loops back to creating undead...which, yeah.
Making undead basically injects raw Entropy into the world, and (depending on how things are defined) possibly denies the soul of that body peaceful rest. It's basically a crime against the natural world of the highest order. That's why it's got the [evil] tag.

Really, I'd bet most all of the stuff you listed as "awesome reasons to be totally evil" can be replicated by good or neutral sources.

And then saying that someone who does all of this happily goes around with a paladin? It boggles my mind. That paladin has to be blind and inept to not make connections, which is weird since, if nothing else, they've got Sense Motive as a class skill, and Wisdom is required to at least a score of 14 to get all their spells.

Maybe I'm overreacting. But in my eyes, it feels like blatant loopholes and "letter of the law" abuse. And it feels like it's tarnishing the whole point of what a Paladin is supposed to be about (being an exemplar of goodness and order, standing for a Better Way, inspiring everyone to Be Better) and do (root out evil wherever it hides, turn the wicked to repentance, strike down the threats that won't or can't repent, and basically actively work to make the world a better place).
Having a Paladin casually working alongside someone who brazenly calls upon beings and powers that are the blatant antithesis of what he's about is...again, it just seems like loophole abuse when neither of you is willing to compromise this one specific vision you've got. You, with your piles of evil everything, and him with his paladin. He could totally play a blackguard, or an evil fighter, or an evil crusader, or...you get the picture. Or, as stated, I'd bet you could find non-evil means to get your character where you want him to be.


I'm not saying "you must play X way, rawr!", but I am saying that the whole thing feels very off, really. But maybe I'm too idealistic about both how paladins should be, and how a group should behave if one of their member is a paladin.

EDIT: Looking back, I'm wondering if this comes off a bit too confrontational.

If it does, I really do apologize. I guess I'm just passionate about how much I love Paladins, or at least the concept of them (D&D seems to stagger a bit on them...).

As well, I interpreted your statement as essentially saying that the only way one could do any of the things you spoke of, or indeed could be effective, was to be really evil, which I felt was a gross misrepresentation of available options.

If genuine offense was taken, I apologize.

[ThiagoMartell]

They are evil, and they are also incredibly useful and expedient, that's the point I'm trying to make.

And so what? :smallconfused:

[JoeYounger]

This is simply wrong, VoP specifically doesn't work like that. Talk about a lousy DM.

Yeah, I was pretty frustrated. But I think he was too. We were playing a super low OP group and my VoP monk was outshining the entire rest of the party. :( That was the same time that he killed me 5 times in one sitting.


Actually, if he tried to use the sword it does:

"Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons,..."

I had the same thing happen to me once, when I used the Frog God's sword to steal his immortality / invulnerability, as this was the only way to kill him. Such is the nature of the beast...

At least my DM did relent and allow me to atone for my 'crime' a session or two later, via a bit of divine intervention (on top of my continuing to follow the vow - bar that single lapse, despite having lost all the benefits).

Yeah, I wasn't using it. I disarmed him and threw the sword away from him as my move action. :(

[Arbane]

Some of the stories here remind me of why I'd never want to play a Paladin. GMs, just because paladins 'can' fall, doesn't mean they MUST. :smallyuk:

(I don't remember clerics ever getting this level of flak from their gods...)


Eh, the biggest issues re: paladins and undead tends to be that pallies have no native way around damage reduction, incorporeality, and a host of other advantages that the undead have which they use to bludgeon melee types to death. Might I suggest investing in a ghost touch weapon?

This is for Pathfinder?

Dunno about incorporeality, but Smite Evil specifically ignores all DR. And both Lay On Hands and Channel Positive Energy can mess up undead pretty well.

[Slipperychicken]

One time, the Paladin's head was chopped off so hard that it sailed through the air, and fell so hard that my Wizard needed to make a Reflex save to avoid it. It was funny, in a morbid kind of way.

[elvengunner69]

Some of the stories here remind me of why I'd never want to play a Paladin. GMs, just because paladins 'can' fall, doesn't mean they MUST. :smallyuk:

(I don't remember clerics ever getting this level of flak from their gods...)



I think you are hitting the core of the DM/Paladin dynamic - I played one recently and frustrated my DM to no end because I was trying to roleplay a LG Paladin and when he somehow tricked my Paladin into putting on a knecklace that was evil - he was upset that my Paladin wanted to end his life vs. wearing something evil. I think a lot of DMs just can't handle a Paladin but they can be lots of fun (in my opinion)

[elvengunner69]

Some of the stories here remind me of why I'd never want to play a Paladin. GMs, just because paladins 'can' fall, doesn't mean they MUST. :smallyuk:

(I don't remember clerics ever getting this level of flak from their gods...)



I think you are hitting the core of the DM/Paladin dynamic - I played one recently and frustrated my DM to no end because I was trying to roleplay a LG Paladin and when he somehow tricked my Paladin into putting on a knecklace that was evil - he was upset that my Paladin wanted to end his life vs. wearing something evil. I think a lot of DMs just can't handle a Paladin but they can be lots of fun (in my opinion)

[Zejety]

Please find below a RP exchange between myself (the Dm) and one of my players. From an earlier campaign we played.

Said player had been playing his Paladin, Ranos The White, since first level, and was now approaching 15th level.

During this stage of the campaign, it was revealed that all along, "Anna" the noblewoman the group had been working for was actually a vampire queen, and that she had been manipulating them into destroying her rivals, and sometimes even innocents. During this time, the character had developed an affectionate relationship with "Anna" and so was utterly conflicted when he found out and so retired to his room to consider the situation, and pray for guidence.

"Anna" decided to intervene, and forced the issue on him with the aid of subtle magic.

(Please excuse any grammer / spelling. It was written and recorded a long time ago, and i have not yet got round to editing it)

Death and Birth

DM
You are in you room the first night back from your latest trip. You retired with a mind full of turmoil. The recent "revelations" combined with the possibility of getting homset your thoughts racing.

It seems the items you all carry are the key to your goal. Somehow, they will allow you access to those that tricked you into this hellish situation in the first place.

Unfortunatly, you are missing the last... that accursed staff. Rumours suggest it is currently in the possession of a bieng called "The burning Eye"

If "Anna's" words are the truth, you will undoubtedly need to retrieve it.

The Dagger, the Staff, the Diamond, and the unholy abomination that you feel tugging at your soul ... all linked to your and your companions destiny.

You are brought from reverie by the sound of your door opening...

Ranos Player
I stand and see who is in the doorway

DM
It is Anna, she is smiling softly, and enters the room. Closing the door behind her, she stands at the end of the bed.

"I think we need to Talk Ranos. About many, many things..."

Ranos Player
I invite her to sit on the chair, I sit down on the bed.

I think casting protection spells is inappropriate now so I say a silent prayer to heronious to protect me and hope he is listening

"What can I do for you my Lady?"

DM
"First and foremost. I sense a certain animosity recently. That compounded with the question asked of me earlier today... worries me somewhat"

She pauses for a second.

"Secondly... The soul reaver... it is needed to destroy the two brothers and return you all home, however, i sense it is "uncomfortable" for you to bear in this way... i can help you there Ranos my dear..."

Did she just edge forward in the chair a little?

Ranos Player
"As far as I am aware the only way to separate me from the sword is to bring about my death, and should that happen my soul would be lost forever. I am not yet willing to relinquish my life needlessly for a cause I am unsure of".

I eye my sword and armour in the corner of the room and silently curse myself for not protecting myself in her home

"Regarding animosity, you must understand that the possibility I may be working for something I would call a ruthless undead creature goes against my very being. I could not expect you to understand my faith or my calling, or the strictures I must follow in order to remain at one with my God, but imagine being associated with something it is in your very nature to destroy.... the feelings I have about you are uncomfortable and confusing. I have a great respect for you and your achievements, and yet....."

I let the rest of the sentence go unfinished

"If you wish for me to leave, then ask it of me and I will go."

DM
Anna chuckles...

"I will let you into a secret my dear" she says softly "Simply because it no longer matters. This must be addressed now, before my plans are set in motion"

She rests back in the chair, almost nonchalantly. Her dress rides up her leg somwhat, and her soft hand comes to rest upon her knee.

"My name, Is Lady Kittanna DeLatria. I am over 2 and a half thousand years old, On numerous worlds i am considered a godess, I am immortal, i walk the planes, and those that know me, tremble"

She stands

"I command demon princes!, devils!, and armies too large to count!. I have destroyed worlds, realities and countless lives, but yet i have also created worlds, realities and countless lives."

She takes a step towards you

"I am the night, i am the darkness in your soul, i am the scream of every dieing mortal, and i... am... eternal!"

Her eyes blaze with power as she stands, a preditory smile on her perfect lips.

And then her demenour softens once more.

"Yet despite all this, there is something i do not understand Ranos "the white" Why, with your commen sense, and wisdom, do you place your faith in a faceless entity, one you will never touch, see, or feel. one who has foresaken you long ago?"

the last sentence is said with venom and comtempt... she stands in front of you waiting.

Ranos Player
I stay seated but ready myself to make a run for my sword should it be needed. I do my best to remain calm in the face of death.

"My God has not forsaken me. Had he done so the effects would have been obvious immediately. My magic would fail me, my companion would have deserted me. I am what I am because of who I am, and because of the fact that my god is with me. Without my god I would become nothing, a mere fighter.... worthless"

looks downfallen for a moment as if wrestling with some inner emotion....

"If you are to kill me then do so, you can see I am unarmed and unprotected, what you would call an easy kill...."

DM
"Oh but he has Ranos!"

She looks directly at you.

"Think about the things you have done... about what you are doing this very second! Talking to a Vampire Queen! There was a time you would not have even needed proof! the very rumour would have had you charging forwards with your sword in hand... Ranos The white."

She chuckles

"Do you REALLY think the lord of Valor would still smile upon one such that you have become?. You walk the path Ranos, you walk the path of your destiny... your power flows not from the crusader... but from MY master. From the moment you chose to serve me... kill without question..."work" in this twisted place, your choice was clear..."

She pauses and waves a hand. A shimmering image apears. It is you, in your youth.

You stand atop a hill, silver armour glittering in the sun, white cape billowing sideways. An aura of noblity is projected forth by you. At your side is your faithful mount, The tiger, a regal soft glow surrounds it.

"Look at yourself... but see the truth Ranos "the white" See yourself as others on the worlds you have visited see you... see yourself as you are perceved by those you have destroyed.

Slowly the image distorts... The silver of your armour fades to grey... then a lightless menacing black. Red pinpricks of light appear behind the visor of your helm. the aura of nobility, slowly changes... it grows sinister, an aura of menace. At the same time, the cat at your side changes... it twists and writhes... before long it is a man... long white hair and dark clothes. With dark glow, slowly he fades away, smiling grimly.

You are left, like an image from a nightmare standing as a lord of darkness... blood red cape swept sideways by the howling wind.

"THIS is your calling Ranos, this is what you were meant, and have chosen, to be. I offer you a god you can touch, taste and even talk to. And better still... it is forever!"

Ranos Player
I stands angrily, shouting

"I will not desert my God! This is all lies! lies!

My God is here with me! I can feel him, I can feel his power!"

Runs over to his sword, grabs it and turns pointing it at Kittanna with a shaking hand

"You are a dark deceiver! You show me dark images of things that cannot be! I will not believe this!"

Tears start to fall freely down my face, my greatest fear seems as though it is coming true.

"my god is real!"

DM
"Really? Then prove it!"

She folds her arms.

"Use you magic to "heal" me. If your god still smiles upon you, his will should burn my immortal flesh... no?"

Ranos Player
Drops the sword with a clatter and strides over to Kittanna

"This will hurt.... a lot"

I place my hands on her shoulders and call upon the powers of Heronious to heal her (should heal 84 hit points)

DM
The sword clatters on the floor.

Purposefully you stride forth, arm outstreched.

"This will hurt... a lot"

Your hand falls onto her perfect flesh, with all your might you will the power forward. Tears stream down your face as you call upon the lord of valor to make his pressence know to this evil witch.

There is no answer.

Lady Kittanna DeLatria smiles wryly at you.

"My father, will not let you hurt me, my dear."

Now, desist with ths foolishness. You KNOW what has happened, and you are fully aware of the choices you have made.

Your confusion is no longer relevant. Now you must choose.

You continue to walk the path you have chosen, granted this may seem daunting, and goes against everything you believe at the moment. But i guarentee, all will be clear soon.

The alternative is not as pleasent. Please Ranos, dont make me destroy you... you are destined for great things... do not throw it away.

Ranos Player
"But I tried! I tried so hard to be good!

I didn't know, I was deceived.... I.... I failed"

slumps to the floor with tears streaming down his face

"I failed"

looks up at the dark lady

"Why did he desert me? What must I do? Help me.....please....."

DM
She smiles soflty.

"Turn and kneel before me Ranos, so that you face away from me"

Ranos Player
Still kneeling he turns away from Kitana and weeps softly

DM
"Father!" She declares

"In the name of the clan i bring this one to you."

You feel her hands slide over your shoulders and pull you back, she is kneeling behind you.

"Freely he accepts his destiny, i ask you to watch over his birth and offer your dark blessing."

A distortion appears before you, as you start to focus on it, a sharp pain tears through your neck and down your back.

Slowly the dark lady drinks from you, all the while the distortion grows into a familiar shape, The White haired man, eyes betraying the wisdom and knowledge of eternity. He stands, no expression on his face.


Then, your world starts to fade. things start to turn grey. and your focus starts to fail. Your life is ending, at the very end you catch a glimpse of "something" an image or phantom of a man, stood behind the White haired one.

He stands, in a suite of full plate, a vast greatsword rests, tip in the ground, his hands crossed on the pommel.

A look of profound sorrow adorns his face as he looks down on you. The last thing you see with mortal eyes, is the crusader, the lord of valor.. Your ex-god turning slowly and walking away from you. Shaking his head, and weeping for another lost son.


The black fades back to grey, then colour.

Before you, stands A being who's pressence is awsome. The fury of dark creation flows though him. He looks on you and speaks with the voice of ages past.

"Arise... Ranos the Black, arise and be free to follow your destiny without doubt or regret."

"But father..." interjects Kittanna

"Silence child" he replies, there is no room for question "This one will not be yours to command. He will act of his own volition, you have other toys to amuse yourself with. No... he must follow his own path... your guideance would be well heeded Dark lady, but you will not be his master"

"As you wish", she offers, head bowed

As your senses return, you notice a difference... oh yes... this is going to be interesting!

"My daughter will councel you soon... for now.. grow accustomed to your new gift. What you reveal or do not reveal to others, is your own affair, i trust you will use your own judgement."

He pauses and starts to fade.

"Be well my son... but above all... Ranos The Black... be strong!"

And so was born, "Ranos the Black" A vampire lord / blackguard, who went on to become the main villain of the campaign, and the greatest threat the players ever faced.

He was also once, one of their greatest friends.

Thanks for the great read!
Also, "a mere fighter.... worthless" made me snicker ;)

[SA HnK416]

I'm about to be playing an ex-Paladin in an upcoming campaign, so I guess it works as well.
His name is Oscar, would be Oscar of Scelrion, but he's forgotten the name of his home. He was a demi-god, the race is Aasimar, and is a Paladin-Fighter, 9/1. He was the last born son of what in the campaign is the god of Sunlight and Glory, and was on his way to becoming a god of Honor and War, but lost his deity status after a combination of argument and violence against his father, and was cast out and made mortal. He's now on a path of atonement for his sin, and is still struggling to deal with suddenly becoming mortal. The DM is the only person who knows this, and everyone else just thinks he's a fairly terrible warrior, what with the 9 levels in Paladin now completely useless. To make up for the very, very heavy blow to abilities, I'm getting beefed up in terms of stats and I have my own custom spell-like ability.
It's going to be interesting playing what is essentially a 1st level in a part of level 10's.

[Alaris]

It's going to be interesting playing what is essentially a 1st level in a part of level 10's.

Not really 1st level... while you don't have the abilities to benefit from for Paladin, you still get 9d10 hit dice, Saves (+6 Fort, +3 Ref, +3 Will), +9 Base Attack Bonus and Skill Points. You're 9 levels of a Fighter without bonus feats.

Overall, a pretty mediocre fighter, yes. But not a 1st level character.

[roguemetal]

It's going to be interesting playing what is essentially a 1st level in a part of level 10's.
Don't forget the potential to become a black-guard. :smallbiggrin:
Converts all those 'useless' levels into fun little tricks.
Of course the day I see an Aasimar Blackguard is the day I know the DM has gone mad.

[Lord_Gareth]

Don't forget the potential to become a black-guard. :smallbiggrin:
Converts all those 'useless' levels into fun little tricks.
Of course the day I see an Aasimar Blackguard is the day I know the DM has gone mad.

He's gone mad because he portrayed a free-willed being with no alignment subtype as being able to turn evil?

[Alaris]

He's gone mad because he portrayed a free-willed being with no alignment subtype as being able to turn evil?

Agree. Very much agree.

No reason an Aasimar can't be evil.

Now... for this particular Paladin, I presume he wouldn't want to, because he's a former deity, and would not want to pledge himself to a deity to gain power (which I believe is what a Blackguard does, only to an EVIL Deity).

[SA HnK416]

Agree. Very much agree.

No reason an Aasimar can't be evil.

Now... for this particular Paladin, I presume he wouldn't want to, because he's a former deity, and would not want to pledge himself to a deity to gain power (which I believe is what a Blackguard does, only to an EVIL Deity).

Yup. I probably should have worded the 1st level thing better, I was referring to the Paladin levels. Meh, I probably shouldn't have even made the comparison. At any rate, it's going to be interesting to play. It's also going to be fun when me/the DM explains the character to the party, because all they know is "Fighter".