Goblin leveling (SoD spoilers) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

tomaO2

2012-07-08, 01:20 AM

I got my print edition reward recently and the biggest surprise from reading it that I hadn't noticed in any previous discussion was the fact that goblins can level up.

True, we all know that Redcloak can level up but I don't recall any definitive evidence that showed other goblins doing the same. I had assumed that Redcloak could take further levels in cleric as a benefit of his crimson mantle. Same deal for the oracle, I figured that kobloid managed more levels because of his connection to Timat. However, in the Paladin massacre, we see goblins feats you can't get at level one, notably great cleave. They actually do a fair job of killing off the paladins before being wiped out.

Edit: Okay, there are plenty of instances of goblins and other monster races getting levels that I had forgotten about.

This really stunned me, the argument is that the monster races, like goblins, were created so that level 1 adventurers could level up but if goblins can level up as well then how can that argument possibly hold up? If goblins can become high level adventurers just like the "PC" races can then what stop them from being able to take over? What is the basis of them believing themselves to be inferior? Okay, sure, they started on an inhospitable landscape but there are more of them. We have seen them achieve military victories. What stops them from achiving more? What prevents the level playing field that Redcloak talks about?

In short, can anyone explain what the real difference between a "PC" race and an "NPC" race is if both can gain class levels?

JavaScribe

2012-07-08, 02:23 AM

Monsters with class levels have been appearing as early as here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

Rules to improve monsters do exist: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Improving_Creatures

This really stunned me, the argument is that the monster races, like goblins, were created so that level 1 adventurers could level up but if goblins can level up as well then how can that argument possibly hold up?

XP is awarded for overcomming a challenge. The more levels a character gains, the tougher the challenge rating they need to continue getting the same amount of XP. If goblins didn't level up, it would eventually become worthless to fight them for XP. Of course, I suppose adventurers could just move on to different monsters.

If goblins can become high level adventurers just like the "PC" races can then what stop them from being able to take over?

Who says they aren't trying. Heck, that is one of the main pieces of the plot. The PC races were probably just entrenched by the gods.

In short, can anyone explain what the real difference between a "PC" race and an "NPC" race is if both can gain class levels?

I'm not a D&D player, but I'm guessing that one of the big differences is that "PC" races are specifically designed to be usable by players. They probably have a lot more information available on how to play them. Of course, a player certainly can use an "NPC" race if they want to.

Kish

2012-07-08, 02:45 AM

In short, can anyone explain what the real difference between a "PC" race and an "NPC" race is if both can gain class levels?[/FONT]
Aside from the fact that a human adventurer can sit in a tavern and recruit a group, including dwarves, halflings, and elves, in the course of one day whereas a goblin who wants to be an adventuring party leader had better know enough other goblins who want to be adventurers to form a group...

Statistically, goblinoids (and monster races in general) are much weaker than player character races. Those that don't have pretty horrible stats have crippling level adjustments.

Winter

2012-07-08, 09:10 AM

There's nothing special to see here.

OotS-villians, monsters etc all have been able to gain levels. There are simply too many examples where monsters of NPCs had PrC- or Class-levels.

SoD alone is full of goblin-clerics.

Everyone can gain levels - and that people or monsters usually do not do it is based on the fact that gaining levels is pretty dangerous (and gets even more and more dangerous the higher you advance, which means that individuals at one point either die or stop gaining levels).

Forikroder

2012-07-08, 09:36 AM

In short, can anyone explain what the real difference between a "PC" race and an "NPC" race is if both can gain class levels?

there is no difference

a player could jsut as easily be a goblin as a human

Jay R

2012-07-08, 10:32 AM

In short, can anyone explain what the real difference between a "PC" race and an "NPC" race is if both can gain class levels?

Yes and no. The difference is simply whether the game has specific rules for player-characters of that race.

However, going all the way back to the original white box, the possibility of choosing to play a race for which there are no specific rules has been acknowledged. In the first version, the PC races were human, elf, dwarf, and hobbit. (Half-elves came in with the first expansion.) But there was a short paragraph saying that players should be allowed to play something else if they want to:

'There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak, and work up to the top, i.e., a player wishing to be a Balrog would have to begin as let us say, a "young" one and progress upwards in the usual manner, steps being predetermined by the campaign referee.'

Morty

2012-07-08, 10:46 AM

NerfTW

2012-07-08, 11:26 AM

In short, can anyone explain what the real difference between a "PC" race and an "NPC" race is if both can gain class levels?

In this comic? Not much. Basically, a PC is someone the plot revolves around. An important character. While it in general applies only to the Order, we've seen mentions of other PC's before, usually to mean an adventurer. Someone who goes out and does quests instead of getting a steady job, quite often causing chaos and destruction for monster races that are living way out in the middle of nowhere, minding their own business. (sort of)

As for monsters having levels, yes, they do.

what's keeping them from attacking? Basically the same thing that keeps any army from attacking anyone else. Another army.

Like O'chul stated during the battle for Azure City, a level 15 character can't take on an entire army. Statistically, they're rolling a 20 one out of every 20 attempts. With a hundred soldiers, you're going down eventually. And we clearly see that there are decent 5+ level characters all over the place. Most of the Order gained 10 levels before they ever started adventuring.

They're going to be rare in monster races, due to the lack of easy targets, but they certainly exist. Or else the Order would be constantly fighting nothing but level 1 mooks all the time.

tomaO2

2012-07-08, 11:49 AM

Hmm, I really forgot a number of instances of monsters having levels. I forgot about the kobloids that were Bekler's opponents...

I guess the situation was brought home to me after reading the whole explanation for why goblins have it rough and I couldn't help compare it to the fact that they can get levels.

Since there doesn't seem to be any particular reason for goblins to be xp for adventurers, I guess that means that Redcloaks explination about why things are the way they are is a bunch of lies. I mean, unless it has to do with creatures being good or evil. Since good characters can't be killing other good characters, they would need evil ones to kill instead to gain exp. However, if that was the case then why blame NPC status? Makes more sense to blame alignment.

Forikroder

2012-07-08, 12:12 PM

King of Nowhere

2012-07-08, 12:41 PM

I'm surprised no one brought this up yet.

Goblinods could not level up. Not before the dark one. Redcloak strongly implies in the secret lore of the crimson mantle that the dark one was the first goblin to level up or have elite array stats. We don't know why he was so different, but he was very special somehow.
So, maybe once the dark one ascended to godhood and started to protect goblins as much as he could, goblinoids became capable of leveling up as much as everyone else.

Still, they have crappy stats, and are much more likely to get randomly killed on sight by humanoid adventurers. Plus, they have less resources. it is more likely to develop elite stats if you have adequate food in your young age.

NerfTW

2012-07-08, 12:46 PM

Since there doesn't seem to be any particular reason for goblins to be xp for adventurers, I guess that means that Redcloaks explination about why things are the way they are is a bunch of lies. I mean, unless it has to do with creatures being good or evil. Since good characters can't be killing other good characters, they would need evil ones to kill instead to gain exp. However, if that was the case then why blame NPC status? Makes more sense to blame alignment.

Um, he doesn't blame NPC status. His story as the Dark One tells him is that monsters were created as easy prey for low level adventurers and given terrible land that's impossible to make a living on. The reason they have trouble rising up is that even if you defend a swamp, you can't raise a very large army in one.

His claim is that they were intentionally started off in a position of weakness that they can't break out of, because the humanoid races have better supplies, positions, and defenses. Not that monsters can't level up. Even a mid level adventurer is going to be slaughtered if they try to break down a stone wall while archers shoot at them. And as for magic users, you need someone to teach you. If none of the humanoid races will train a monster wizard, then there will never be more than low level spellcasters.

Obviously, there's some major questions about who's telling the truth in any of these creation stories, but Redcloak's version does not hinge on class levels. It hinges on resources and location.

I'm surprised no one brought this up yet.

Goblinods could not level up. Not before the dark one. Redcloak strongly implies in the secret lore of the crimson mantle that the dark one was the first goblin to level up or have elite array stats. We don't know why he was so different, but he was very special somehow.

Nobody has brought that up because it's incorrect. When the Dark One ascends, he talks about monster class levels as though they're very common. At no point is it implied that he was the first to level up.

Winter

2012-07-08, 01:04 PM

I'm surprised no one brought this up yet.

Goblinods could not level up. Not before the dark one. [...]

Even if this was true (which is not) it would still be besides the point as it would not carry any information about all the non-goblin races that have been shown to gain class levels.
Dragons (ABD) or kobolds (the oracle) for example, we also have seen an Ogre with obvious levels (the spiked-chain ogre burned more feats than he should have without levels).

The simple answer is: There simply is no restriction to who can gain levels and who can't. The only limiting factor is: do those people (monsters) get out to get levels and kill enough level-appropiate things to actually gain levels (or do they die in the attempt)?

There simply is no mystery to answer.

Forikroder

2012-07-08, 01:13 PM

Even if this was true (which is not) it would still be besides the point as it would not carry any information about all the non-goblin races that have been shown to gain class levels.
Dragons (ABD) or kobolds (the oracle) for example, we also have seen an Ogre with obvious levels (the spiked-chain ogre burned more feats than he should have without levels).

The simple answer is: There simply is no restriction to who can gain levels and who can't. The only limiting factor is: do those people (monsters) get out to get levels and kill enough level-appropiate things to actually gain levels (or do they die in the attempt)?

There simply is no mystery to answer.

he was a half-ogre i think

also there was an ogre carrying equipment guarding the cave that Haley thinks has class levels as well

Emperordaniel

2012-07-08, 01:14 PM

(the spiked-chain ogre burned more feats than he should have without levels).

Of course, he was half-human (definitely half-something else, at any rate), which could have granted him a human bonus feat or something :smalltongue:

King of Nowhere

2012-07-08, 02:04 PM

Nobody has brought that up because it's incorrect. When the Dark One ascends, he talks about monster class levels as though they're very common. At no point is it implied that he was the first to level up.

I disagree. the lines "he was different. he had the elite array of ability scores. he had class levels" seems to imply that he was an anomaly, not just a goblin adventurer.
and tdo was not referring to monsters with class levels. he was referring to the rules for pc monsters, which are something different.

I suppose I could easily be wrong on it, but I still think it was impossible or almost impossible for goblinoids to get class levels before tdo.

Forikroder

2012-07-08, 02:19 PM

I disagree. the lines "he was different. he had the elite array of ability scores. he had class levels" seems to imply that he was an anomaly, not just a goblin adventurer.
and tdo was not referring to monsters with class levels. he was referring to the rules for pc monsters, which are something different.

I suppose I could easily be wrong on it, but I still think it was impossible or almost impossible for goblinoids to get class levels before tdo.

different not unique

he was different in taht he was stronger then any other goblin

its like saying someone was different because there strong and smart and beautiful

rewinn

2012-07-08, 10:50 PM

The simple answer is: There simply is no restriction to who can gain levels and who can't. ...
This may be true in OOTSverse generally, but there is an important point in SoD ...
RC tries very hard to recruit a powerful arcane caster among the goblinoids, so the Ritual can be cast. He fails; the only arcane caster he can find is an idiot. That's why he settled for the human Xykon, with all its attendant complications.

FujinAkari

2012-07-09, 12:07 AM

I disagree. the lines "he was different. he had the elite array of ability scores. he had class levels" seems to imply that he was an anomaly, not just a goblin adventurer.

Well, he IS an abnormality. He was generated as a PC. He rolled ability scores, and his hit die and saves are based on his class, not his race. Most Goblins have to be a Goblin before they can be a Wizard, or Cleric, or whatever, so by the time they hit level X they are inherently weaker than any other level X Cleric... the Dark One wasn't like that.

However, this in no way implies that Goblins could not level up prior to that.

Mutant Sheep

2012-07-09, 12:48 AM

This may be true in OOTSverse generally, but there is an important point in SoD ...
RC tries very hard to recruit a powerful arcane caster among the goblinoids, so the Ritual can be cast. He fails; the only arcane caster he can find is an idiot. That's why he settled for the human Xykon, with all its attendant complications.

Yeah. There just werent many arcane goblins. Especially high level ones. Something that happens when Redcloak, who was pretty low level back then, was one of the most powerful goblins in the world. Its just hard to level.

Winter

2012-07-09, 03:29 AM

Of course, he was half-human (definitely half-something else, at any rate), which could have granted him a human bonus feat or something :smalltongue:

Yes, but that leaves all other cases out.

As for the Arcane Caster in SoD: It makes no sense at all that goblins can feature Rogues (Right-Eye; he maybe was a multiclassed fighter as well), Clerics and whatnot - but no arcane casters. I can imagine they have no Wizards as those need libraries and books and stuff but why should they not produce Sorcerers?

This has nothing to do with the rules as we know them or the question we discuss here, but I assume that goblins in OotS have some racial penalty on arcane magic (they cast at -2 class level or whatever). This or simply bad luck or their society frowns on arcane magic and thus no one develops any talent further but gets put into the cleric-career instead. Or something. Again, note this has nothing at all to do with the question at hand.

Felixc-91

2012-07-09, 04:29 AM

Something I feel I should draw your attention to is this, maybe Red Cloak just didn't know how to recruit. Some of the hob goblins we have seen have been arcane spell casters: dansing lights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html)is not a cleric spell, it’s a wizard/sorcerer spell. Given the prison break seen, we know that these arcane spell casters aren’t that rare. They may not be powerful, but they are not much more uncommon than in a PC race (from what we have seen). The argument was given by the Dark One that the rules for monster PCs are crap, but they do still exist. So I suppose you could say that while goblinoids can level up, the basic rules of their reality make it harder for them to do so.
edit: its 2:30 in the morning here (which is why this commen is a bit rambly), ignore my comment about Red's recruiting abilities, the rest stands.

Crusher

2012-07-09, 07:25 AM

Perhaps the goblinoid races, among other things, suffer from big CHR penalties, severely curtailing their potential as sorcerers (that idiot caster RC managed to dig up was probably a Sorc, now that I think about it. He had "8 or lower INT" written all over him though he might have managed an 11 CHR (or whatever the min is) to be a Sorc).

Also, who did the goblinoids worship prior to the Dark One's ascension? It might have been no one, but that seems unlikely. I'm gonna guess someone like Tiamat or Rat (depending on location), a god who, apparently unbeknownst to the goblinoids, wasn't going to give them the time of day.

So, no teachers makes wizards over, I dunno, level 3 or so problematic, big CHR penalties makes Sorcs over about the same almost impossible, and no god to worship makes clerics of any real power difficult. Sure, the goblins could (with incredible luck and tenacity) level up some rogues and warriors, but an almost total lack of casters would be hugely crippling as a race.

Kish

2012-07-09, 07:30 AM

Perhaps the goblinoid races, among other things, suffer from big CHR penalties, severely curtailing their potential as sorcerers (that idiot caster RC managed to dig up was probably a Sorc, now that I think about it. He had "8 or lower INT" written all over him though he might have managed an 11 CHR (or whatever the min is) to be a Sorc).

There is no minimum stat to be a class. You can be a wizard with an Intelligence of 3, you just won't be able to cast any spells, like Belkar.

More importantly, if goblinoids had even worse stats than in by-the-book D&D, I'd think the Dark One would have mentioned that when he was raging at the other gods. The stats they have in by-the-book D&D are quite bad enough to explain goblins being unable to compete, even before we get to their social role being "acceptable targets" for all the PC races.

Also, who did the goblinoids worship prior to the Dark One's ascension? It might have been no one, but that seems unlikely.

Why?

In any case, whether they were aware of the hostile status of all the gods to them or were offering unanswered prayers, yes, until the Dark One arose they likely had only adepts, no clerics.

Yuki Akuma

2012-07-09, 08:08 AM

All goblins have class levels.

Most of them only have one level in the Warrior class, but as humanoids with only one hit die they must have class levels.

The same also applies to Kobolds and Hobgoblins (but not Bugbears, they have three racial hit dice).

Winter

2012-07-09, 09:44 AM

All goblins have class levels.

No, according to the Rules as Written, most monsters only have racial HD, no levels of any sort.

Douglas

2012-07-09, 09:57 AM

No, according to the Rules as Written, most monsters only have racial HD, no levels of any sort.
Goblin, 1st-Level Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm)

It may not be many (or even multiple) class levels, and the class may suck, but the standard goblin does have a class and level.

Kish

2012-07-09, 10:02 AM

No, according to the Rules as Written, most monsters only have racial HD, no levels of any sort.
...Goblins don't have racial hit dice, any more than humans or elves do.

Winter

2012-07-09, 11:41 AM

...Goblins don't have racial hit dice, any more than humans or elves do.

How about Dragons or Ogres?

Kish

2012-07-09, 11:47 AM

What about them?
Dragons and ogres have more than one hit die when they appear as monsters, and have racial hit dice if one plays them. Does that have something to do with Yuki Akuma's statement ("All goblins have class levels"), your contradiction of said statement, or the topic of the thread?

Crusher

2012-07-09, 01:09 PM

There is no minimum stat to be a class. You can be a wizard with an Intelligence of 3, you just won't be able to cast any spells, like Belkar.

More importantly, if goblinoids had even worse stats than in by-the-book D&D, I'd think the Dark One would have mentioned that when he was raging at the other gods. The stats they have in by-the-book D&D are quite bad enough to explain goblins being unable to compete, even before we get to their social role being "acceptable targets" for all the PC races.

Why?

In any case, whether they were aware of the hostile status of all the gods to them or were offering unanswered prayers, yes, until the Dark One arose they likely had only adepts, no clerics.

Looks like goblins suffer a base -2 CHR which isn't quite as bad as I was thinking but is still a punch in the nose for a racial Sorc corps.

Re: worshiping gods, it just seems strange to me that since they have absolute knowledge of the gods' existence that they wouldn't decide to at least *try* worshiping them in the hopes of getting something out of it (which they probably weren't). My point is really just that their ability to stand on an even playing field with the PCs races isn't only crimped by terrible natural resources and bad stats, but also that for most of their history they had virtually no high or even mid-level divine or arcane casters. That's a pretty huge handicap.

WowWeird

2012-07-09, 01:34 PM

...Sure, the goblins could (with incredible luck and tenacity) level up some rogues and warriors, but an almost total lack of casters would be hugely crippling as a race.
Especially in the D&D-based OOTS world, where even an unoptimized caster like V or Durkon possesses obscene amounts of power (though, granted, mostly manifesting in the mid-to-high levels). As I understood it, the goblins were set up in military and agriculturally worthless places and automatically despised by PC races. Wizardry would be nigh impossible to practice effectively- even ignoring the inherent flavor difficulties of mastering academic arts in a deprived society, a goblin wizard would have only three ways of gaining new spells ( key to their power)- leveling (highly dangerous, only yields a few new spells, and likely to kill them early with their crappy stats), copying (very difficult in practice, as no PC races would loan a spellbook to beasts, has a fairly high cost, and requires rare materials such as paper and ink in a desolate wasteland/swamp) or creating (difficult at the presumed low levels and has even higher costs in rare materials). Thus, goblin wizardry never gets off the ground. Sorcery may have existed, but become unpopular due to a tendency to bring down PCs on the society (be a poor and marginalized race on the outskirts of civilization, or have an egomaniacal sorcerer try to fight and get 'cleaned out' by adventurers- there'd be a little pressure to keep quiet about their talents). The gods don't grant prayers until the Dark One, locking out clerics, and goblins being in abysmal territory would tend to preclude a reverence towards nature. Thus, the humanoids are crippled even more without the gamebreaking casters!
/long, long series of speculations.
Thus it makes sense to me that we start seeing competent Browncloaks after the Battle of Azure City- they only now have the resources to develop these abilities!

EDIT- Crusher, have you been taking levels in Swordsage? :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma

2012-07-09, 01:47 PM

No, according to the Rules as Written, most monsters only have racial HD, no levels of any sort.

...

What?

Sure, goblins have racial hit dice. They have 1 racial hit die, just like humans, dwarves, elves and most creatures of the Humanoid type.

The Humanoid type has a special ability in which, if they only have one racial hit die, they replace it with a class level. Goblins are Humanoids (I will continue to repeat this until you get it), so therefore, they have to have a class.

There's no option here. All Goblins have class levels. Period.

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

You can click here if you don't believe me. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType)

Dragons and ogres, meanwhile, are not Humanoids (dragons are, surprise surprise, Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType), while ogres are Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType)), and have more than 1 hit die regardless, so they don't get to replace their racial hit dice with class levels. They can certainly take class levels, though, as their Int score is higher than 2.

Pixies, while being of the Fey type, can replace their single Fey hit die with a class level, if they want. I'm unsure of any other specific monsters with this ability.

Forikroder

2012-07-09, 01:54 PM

...

What?

Sure, goblins have racial hit dice. They have 1 racial hit die, just like humans, dwarves, elves and most creatures of the Humanoid type.

The Humanoid type has a special ability in which, if they only have one racial hit die, they replace it with a class level. Goblins are Humanoids (I will continue to repeat this until you get it), so therefore, they have to have a class.

There's no option here. All Goblins have class levels. Period.

i dont think he was talking about humanoids when he said most monsters

i think he was reffering more to tarrasques, slimes, chaos beasts e.t.c

Yuki Akuma

2012-07-09, 01:56 PM

i dont think he was talking about humanoids when he said most monsters

i think he was reffering more to tarrasques, slimes, chaos beasts e.t.c

No, he was talking about goblins. Which are Humanoids. Because he was refuting my statement of "All goblins have class levels".

rewinn

2012-07-09, 04:52 PM

...Thus it makes sense to me that we start seeing competent Browncloaks after the Battle of Azure City- they only now have the resources to develop these abilities!...
Good point. At the very least, they have a whole lotta spellbooks to pry out of the rubble and copy from. IIRC the only arcane spells we see hobbo casters use is "Dancing Lights" which is very low level, but it's a start. Ironically the Quest for the Phylactery may have levelled up some spellcasters.

JavaScribe

2012-07-09, 06:11 PM

Caivs

2012-07-09, 09:56 PM

The Dark One is the most commonly worshiped god among Oots goblins, and Redcloak may have called him their one and only god, but he technically isn't the only one. This strip mentions some demon prince: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

We should probably not take a disorderly sentence said by a rebellious teenager as a credible source. For all we know he might have been trying to talk about the Dark One without any knowledge of who he is. Or, he means his father works as a priest for an evil demon prince guy or something like that, which makes a lot more sense.

It was pretty much stated in SoD that it is a pantheon of one.

JavaScribe

2012-07-09, 11:09 PM

I never said that there were other gods in the Dark One's pantheon. Just that there is at least one other entity that has been worshiped by goblins.

Emanick

2012-07-09, 11:33 PM

I never said that there were other gods in the Dark One's pantheon. Just that there is at least one other entity that has been worshiped by goblins.

Yeah, this. Dragon Magazine comics depict show goblins of other religions - they're jokes, yes, but we're not likely to get any non-joke references to fringe religions that, if introduced to the plot in any real sense, would do nothing but derail it.

I think it overwhelmingly probable that the Dark One is worshipped by virtually all goblins, but I also find it highly unlikely that every single goblin who worships a god worships him. There are probably a few exceptions - weirdos like Leeky Windstaff who may considered "mad" by the larger community but who are nevertheless committed to a totally different path than that of the mainstream goblin faithful.

FujinAkari

2012-07-10, 12:49 AM

Especially in the D&D-based OOTS world, where even an unoptimized caster like V or Durkon possesses obscene amounts of power (though, granted, mostly manifesting in the mid-to-high levels).

What you seem to be forgetting is that V or Durkon are PCs whereas Goblins are not. This makes a lot (lot!) of difference to a D&D-based OOTS world.

Mike Havran

2012-07-10, 07:27 AM

What you seem to be forgetting is that V or Durkon are PCs whereas Goblins are not. This makes a lot (lot!) of difference to a D&D-based OOTS world.

And where exactly lies that difference? I don't know any in-universe benefit of a PC over NPC of the same class and level. From the meta-story perspective yes, the PCs are those guys around whom the plot revolves. But do they have any other advantage?

Morty

2012-07-10, 07:52 AM

mrmcfatty

2012-07-10, 08:08 AM

one thing i haven't seen mentioned is that goblins were created after humans(and other races but using humans for this example) for the clerics to level. I dont have the book on hand but i dont think it said that other classes were having a hard time leveling.

So all the sudden there is a village of level 1 goblins of various npc classes (adept, aristocrat, a few warriors etc) with simple weapons that end up getting attacked by the humans which have much better and magically enchanted equipment and would have the stronger pc classes(fighter, wizard, etc)

So the stronger humans take out all the weaker goblins, getting stronger while the goblins starting out behind already have a much harder time just catching up to be even, which is basically redcloak and the dark one's entire plan to change that.

Get the goblins and humans starting at the same level, same resources, and same enemies therefore letting only the characters who "suck" die and the ones that are "great" level up and build cities/kingdoms (which, all things equal would most likely lead to both having cities and living as peacefully as everyone in the "human" cities now)

Kish

2012-07-10, 08:52 AM

And where exactly lies that difference? I don't know any in-universe benefit of a PC over NPC of the same class and level. From the meta-story perspective yes, the PCs are those guys around whom the plot revolves. But do they have any other advantage?
The world revolving around you is not an advantage? Remember, there's no fourth wall here. The Cliffport Chief of Police explicitly tells his cops "don't try to be a PC out there" because--as he wound up demonstrating very personally--they, unlike PCs, can die at any time.

Shred-Bot

2012-07-10, 09:14 AM

And where exactly lies that difference? I don't know any in-universe benefit of a PC over NPC of the same class and level. From the meta-story perspective yes, the PCs are those guys around whom the plot revolves. But do they have any other advantage?

Well I don't know about PC vs. NPC, but having a name makes a huge difference. Just ask Kazumi Kato and Daigo TBD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html).

And actually Eugene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) seems to think that being a PC has some benefit as well (or at least makes one more worthy of blame for failures).

Mike Havran

2012-07-10, 09:55 AM

The world revolving around you is not an advantage? Remember, there's no fourth wall here. The Cliffport Chief of Police explicitly tells his cops "don't try to be a PC out there" because--as he wound up demonstrating very personally--they, unlike PCs, can die at any time.

I already acknowledged that advantage. But I am looking for a non-narrative one and can't find it.

Kish

2012-07-10, 11:08 AM

By "non-narrative one," do you mean "one that would exist if the OotS world had a solid fourth wall"?

Whether your answer is "Yes" or "No," why are you looking for one?

I already acknowledged that advantage.
No, you actually didn't, because you claimed it wasn't "in-universe" and asked "where lies that difference?"

Mike Havran

2012-07-10, 01:31 PM

By "non-narrative one," do you mean "one that would exist if the OotS world had a solid fourth wall"?

Whether your answer is "Yes" or "No," why are you looking for one?

No, you actually didn't, because you claimed it wasn't "in-universe" and asked "where lies that difference?"

By non-narrative I mean anything that is not connected to the point that the members of the Order happen to be the main characters of the comics itself. As for why, FujinAkari wrote:

This makes a lot (lot!) of difference to a D&D-based OOTS world.

so I was just curious whether that meant the OotS had some added bonuses to saves, rolls, etc. just because thay are PCs. Because from the comics I haven't seen that.

I recognized that PCs have the plot-based advantage, but I was looking for something more mechanics-based because, from FujinAkari's post, I got that she thinks there is such advantage, and I haven't seen it.

Whiffet

2012-07-10, 02:57 PM

By non-narrative I mean anything that is not connected to the point that the members of the Order happen to be the main characters of the comics itself. As for why, FujinAkari wrote:

so I was just curious whether that meant the OotS had some added bonuses to saves, rolls, etc. just because thay are PCs. Because from the comics I haven't seen that.

I recognized that PCs have the plot-based advantage, but I was looking for something more mechanics-based because, from FujinAkari's post, I got that she thinks there is such advantage, and I haven't seen it.

You're asking, "Are there any advantages to being a main character that aren't related to being a main character?"

In a game, PCs are controlled by the players and NPCs are controlled by the DM. This isn't a game, though, so PC is just another way of saying "protagonist". That's all it means.

factotum

2012-07-10, 03:30 PM

Jay R

2012-07-10, 04:11 PM

The thread title keeps reminding me of "cow tipping". I'm imagining a couple of drunk cowboys running out into a goblin field, leveling a goblin, and running off laughing.

Peelee

2012-07-10, 04:28 PM

The thread title keeps reminding me of "cow tipping". I'm imagining a couple of drunk cowboys running out into a goblin field, leveling a goblin, and running off laughing.

"Leveling" as in laying waste to, or "leveling" as in getting them experience equal to 1000 times their current level? Or as in going up stairs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)?

lunar2

2012-07-10, 04:46 PM

unless OOTS has different restrictions than standard D&D, not having a patron deity wouldn't stop, or even significantly slow down, a goblin cleric, since a cleric can worship a cause, an ideal, or even themselves. plus, clerics without deities get to pick their own domains.

@PC vs. NPC. there is a mechanical advantage to being a PC past level 3. higher WBL. if this was eberron (which it isn't), there would be action points as well, which pcs get automatically, while npcs have to burn a feat for them.

FujinAkari

2012-07-10, 06:51 PM

And where exactly lies that difference? I don't know any in-universe benefit of a PC over NPC of the same class and level.

PCs gain an elite array of ability scores, are automatically given a continually improving set of magical items as they go up in level, and are considered the highest possible threat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html).

lunar2

2012-07-11, 02:27 PM

PCs gain an elite array of ability scores, are automatically given a continually improving set of magical items as they go up in level, and are considered the highest possible threat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html).

actually, anyone with standard class levels gets the elite array, not just PCs. the only real advantage is that PCs are richer past level 3 than equal level npcs.

FujinAkari

2012-07-11, 04:38 PM

actually, anyone with standard class levels gets the elite array, not just PCs. the only real advantage is that PCs are richer past level 3 than equal level npcs.

Considering that having an elite array is explicitly stated as being what made the Dark One different than every other Goblin, this seems unlikely.

B. Dandelion

2012-07-11, 05:31 PM

"Leveling" as in laying waste to, or "leveling" as in getting them experience equal to 1000 times their current level? Or as in going up stairs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)?

"Leveling" as a verb can also mean "to make horizontal", "to bring to the level of ground," "to knock over," et cetera. Check definitions 20-22 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/level?s=t).

Forikroder

2012-07-11, 06:55 PM

Considering that having an elite array is explicitly stated as being what made the Dark One different than every other Goblin, this seems unlikely.

i think it was a ride range of small advantages that brought him ahead of all goblins

maybe somewhere, some time ago, 2 friends sat down and created a solo adventure of a goblin who was more special then the rest and wanted to being them out of the gutter

Kish

2012-07-11, 08:44 PM

Considering that having an elite array is explicitly stated as being what made the Dark One different than every other Goblin, this seems unlikely.
The list of things that made the Dark One special, aside from his purple skin, is, "He had the Elite Array of ability scores! He had class levels! Some say he even had a prestige class!"

Both Redcloak and his brother had at least one of those three things at the time they were speaking. And...I kind of doubt either was doing as badly as the Elite Array, as far as stats go.

Edited: Reading again, I realized you said "an elite array," no capitalization, multiple times, so you might not know this. Just in case: The Elite Array is one of the "quick-stat" methods in the DMG. It consists of distributing, between the six ability scores, before racial modifiers, the scores 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. No offense is intended if you do already know this. (...Or if you don't, for that matter.)

pendejochy

2012-07-11, 11:42 PM

Also, who did the goblinoids worship prior to the Dark One's ascension? It might have been no one, but that seems unlikely. I'm gonna guess someone like Tiamat or Rat (depending on location), a god who, apparently unbeknownst to the goblinoids, wasn't going to give them the time of day.

They probably worshiped the sun, an animal or vague land spirit like the Island Orcs did.

Didn't Elan mention something about clerics being able to serve a cause instead of a god too, back when he came up with Banjo?

Re: worshiping gods, it just seems strange to me that since they have absolute knowledge of the gods' existence that they wouldn't decide to at least *try* worshiping them in the hopes of getting something out of it (which they probably weren't).

The way the very first goblinoids learned about the Gods was probably when they were being slaughtered in their names by a cleric or paladin. If any goblins tried worshiping a good god, they'd become pariahs, outcast by goblin tribes who suffered at the hands of that god's followers, while still being killed on sight by the PC races.

B. Dandelion

2012-07-11, 11:50 PM

Personally I always did assume they worshipped the other gods before the Dark One came along. In the scene where the Dark One is talking to the assembled human leaders, he mentions as part of his overall spiel that they're all the children of gods... it seems fitting if they worshipped the gods that created them, not knowing the real purpose of their creation. It adds to the sense of 'betrayal'.

WowWeird

2012-07-12, 04:48 PM

What you seem to be forgetting is that V or Durkon are PCs whereas Goblins are not. This makes a lot (lot!) of difference to a D&D-based OOTS world.

I get that this has been brought up, but... how, exactly?
I assumed the "high chance of PCs" code of Dancing Lights was merely referring to the fact that PCs tend to have core class levels, and to rise in them quickly. Thus, the ECL as a cross-reference.
The way I read it, PCs are just guaranteed to have levels, and have a huge tendency to engage in dangerous quests, which bring XP, levels, treasure, etc. A PC caster does not hit harder with a Lightning Bolt than an NPC of equal level. PCs don't aim better, hit harder, or run faster solely due to being PCs. Having the Elite Array, better stats in general, or core classes as opposed to the lousy NPC classes is why they tend to outperform them. Not all NPCs are stuck as Adepts, Warriors, or whatever- see Malack, Tarquin, Xykon, Redcloak, Right-Eye, or really any notable named character.
Thus, while PCs are usually more powerful than the NPCs, they don't have an innate force that makes them better than equally-levelled NPCs. Haley didn't save against Zz'dtri (sp?) casting Flesh to Stone because of some mystical Plot Armor- she was faced by a spellcaster who was around her level, and thus had a difficult save to make (which she botched). From that, and myriad other examples in the comic of NPCs wielding as much power as PCs, I think that a goblin wizard who had the same stats (after racial adjustments), spell access, and levels as Vaarsuvius would be just as powerful. After that, the difference is solely in how they use it.
Typing this whole thing makes me wonder, though- how do you know you're a PC? Does it manifest at birth, puberty, or spontaneously? What do other people know about it? Did Eugene just know by looking at Roy? Was he told by someone? Da Chief mentions PCs, but never calls the OOTS by that name- "conquering adventurers" is as close as it gets, IIRC.
Deep thoughts. :smallbiggrin:

FujinAkari

2012-07-12, 05:43 PM

long post

I don't disagree with any of this, I was just posting because you were arguing that arcane casters level up reletively quickly in OOTSworld and cited Durkon and V. However, D and V are also PC's and literally have an adventure crafted around them, so I would certainly expect average NPC wizards / clerics to have a much slower levelling curve.

Peelee

2012-07-12, 05:46 PM

I get that this has been brought up, but... how, exactly?
I assumed the "high chance of PCs" code of Dancing Lights was merely referring to the fact that PCs tend to have core class levels, and to rise in them quickly. Thus, the ECL as a cross-reference.
The way I read it, PCs are just guaranteed to have levels, and have a huge tendency to engage in dangerous quests, which bring XP, levels, treasure, etc. A PC caster does not hit harder with a Lightning Bolt than an NPC of equal level. PCs don't aim better, hit harder, or run faster solely due to being PCs. Having the Elite Array, better stats in general, or core classes as opposed to the lousy NPC classes is why they tend to outperform them. Not all NPCs are stuck as Adepts, Warriors, or whatever- see Malack, Tarquin, Xykon, Redcloak, Right-Eye, or really any notable named character.
Thus, while PCs are usually more powerful than the NPCs, they don't have an innate force that makes them better than equally-levelled NPCs. Haley didn't save against Zz'dtri (sp?) casting Flesh to Stone because of some mystical Plot Armor- she was faced by a spellcaster who was around her level, and thus had a difficult save to make (which she botched). From that, and myriad other examples in the comic of NPCs wielding as much power as PCs, I think that a goblin wizard who had the same stats (after racial adjustments), spell access, and levels as Vaarsuvius would be just as powerful. After that, the difference is solely in how they use it.
Typing this whole thing makes me wonder, though- how do you know you're a PC? Does it manifest at birth, puberty, or spontaneously? What do other people know about it? Did Eugene just know by looking at Roy? Was he told by someone? Da Chief mentions PCs, but never calls the OOTS by that name- "conquering adventurers" is as close as it gets, IIRC.
Deep thoughts. :smallbiggrin:

Dude, PC just means "protagonist" in this context. It just means they're the ones the story is about. So just like a million-to-one shot will almost always happen, you don't raise an alarm for an NPC who will only be in the comic for one strip, because he most likely won't be this huge threat. They know just like they know they are in a comic. It's meta=knowledge. They just know.

brionl

2012-07-12, 06:02 PM

This really stunned me, the argument is that the monster races, like goblins, were created so that level 1 adventurers could level up but if goblins can level up as well then how can that argument possibly hold up?

The only source of that "fact" is Redcloak's narration of what the Dark One told him. That is hardly an unbiased source. We have no way of knowing if that is objectively true or not (I'm guessing not).

brionl

2012-07-12, 06:03 PM

Anarion

2012-07-13, 12:51 AM

Long post about PCs

There are a couple things that could tip people off at birth or as young adults, though there's no way to be sure they're happening in OoTS. One is you're born with max hitpoints on your first hit dice, or receiving max hp when you gain your first clas level at young adulthood. That's sometimes PC only, though it could also be PC class only, but it's at least indicative that you're not going to be run-of-the-mill. Ditto for being born with the elite array or getting the elite array at the moment of first class level.

Another point is that PCs may actually have a tangible advantage, which is that, as protagonists, the world actually might warp around them a bit. D&D has rules for this in the form of circumstance bonuses and penalies. Have you ever taken a really important action in a regular D&D game and combed the books for anything that could justify a few extra bonuses to your dice roll? Might be that the OoTS world does that just for PCs and nobody else. Again, we have no proof that this happens in the comic, but since the characters are aware at a meta level that certain things are supposed to happen in the story, there is a sense tha the world alters itself to cause certain things to happen.

King of Nowhere

2012-07-13, 06:42 PM

I think being pcs in the oots world means having the world revolving around you. for example, if you are an npc adventurer, you may explore a dungeon at first level and be incinerated by an old dragon. or you may be 20th level and be ambushed by 1st level bandits. if you are a pc, you get all the level-appropriate encounters. also you are guaranteed to never end up in a position where you are screwed and you can't get up. if you fall in a deathtrap, there is always a way out. if you are put in jail, you can always escape. However, there are no stats that could be applied to it.

Crusher

2012-07-13, 07:13 PM

So, from Eugene's perspective, that would mean that you're never faced with an unwinnable fight? Like, you're only ever threatened by bullies your size or smaller, and somehow you're never outnumbered in bad situations. That would be kind of annoying for the parent after a while, how charmed the kid's life was turning out and how they'd never appreciate how different they had things than everyone else.

That might explain Eugene's conflicted feelings toward Roy, well, a little. A big chunk of it is just his personality.

Crusher

2012-07-13, 07:22 PM

Bah, double post.

Yuki Akuma

2012-07-13, 07:52 PM

The only source of that "fact" is Redcloak's narration of what the Dark One told him. That is hardly an unbiased source. We have no way of knowing if that is objectively true or not (I'm guessing not).

I know everyone likes to think that because it's a villain then they could always be lying, but...

Villains actually don't lie that much. Especially not about their own motivations. Red Cloak being wrong and goblins not being created as XP fodder would invalidate a lot of the story! Of course he's not lying about that.

factotum

2012-07-14, 01:13 AM

if you are a pc, you get all the level-appropriate encounters. also you are guaranteed to never end up in a position where you are screwed and you can't get up.

Well, that clearly isn't right, because the Order are all PCs and they've frequently ended up in apparently unwinnable situations--the big one, of course, being the battle for Azure City, but there are plenty of smaller examples.

I think "PC" is just a term for someone who goes out adventuring in Stickworld, to be honest.

FujinAkari

2012-07-14, 01:13 PM

I think "PC" is just a term for someone who goes out adventuring in Stickworld, to be honest.

But Nale is explicitly NOT a PC, so this must be false.

PC is a term for someone whom is the protagonist of a storyline. OOTS is set up to parody a D&D setting, and adventurers who find themselves amidst a grand adventure become PCs. Arguably, this could mean that there are multitudes of potential PCs waiting for fate to select them (all the adventurers in the bar, for example) or it could be that some people are destined to be PCs at birth. There is simply no way of knowing.

However, being a PC does seem to lend some degree of circumstance bonuses where you continuously find yourself in the right place and time for plot events, and it causes random factors to work in your favor in order to engage you in an ongoing story (really, how likely is it that Eugene -just so happened- to be standing in the same area of the ruins that Shojo scried upon and the order of Paladins -just so happened- to be run by a deceptive aristocrat totally cool with having secret employees breaking the most important vow in Azure City?)

brionl

2012-07-14, 05:15 PM

I know everyone likes to think that because it's a villain then they could always be lying, but...

Villains actually don't lie that much. Especially not about their own motivations. Red Cloak being wrong and goblins not being created as XP fodder would invalidate a lot of the story! Of course he's not lying about that.

There is a big difference between lying, and being wrong. The Dark One may sincerely believe that, and we're pretty sure Redcloak believes it. But they could be mistaken in their beliefs.

factotum

2012-07-15, 02:02 AM

But Nale is explicitly NOT a PC, so this must be false.

And he doesn't go out adventuring, so how does that contradict what I said? When he met with the Order in Dorukan's Dungeon he was working for the bad guy, so he was a villain from the start--villains are almost always NPCs.

Yuki Akuma

2012-07-15, 04:51 AM

There is a big difference between lying, and being wrong. The Dark One may sincerely believe that, and we're pretty sure Redcloak believes it. But they could be mistaken in their beliefs.

And if they were mistaken, it would invalidate the villains' entire motivations, which would be terrible storytelling.

Morty

2012-07-15, 05:59 AM

If the Dark One and Redcloak are wrong, then the whole plot suddenly boils down to "evil goblin god and his evil followers are trying to attack other gods". If they're right, the situation is quite complex, since whatever injustices were inflicted upon the goblins, Redcloak and his god are anything but blameless. Somehow, I think the latter is more likely.

FujinAkari

2012-07-15, 06:09 AM

And he doesn't go out adventuring, so how does that contradict what I said? When he met with the Order in Dorukan's Dungeon he was working for the bad guy, so he was a villain from the start--villains are almost always NPCs.

Clearly you have a different definition of adventurer than I do. Someone who goes into dungeons in order to defeat monsters and gain treasure certainly qualifies in my book, being a hero or villain is irrelevant.

Winter

2012-07-16, 02:41 AM

--villains are almost always NPCs.

On top of what FujinAkari said: The distinction between NPC and PC in OotS is blurry at best. And if it is somewhere very blurry, it's probably the Linear Guild because they do all the things all PCs do:
They formed a party, they have class levels and they go adventuring.

In gaming, the definition is simple: PCs are played by players, NPCs are not (but even that get's blurry very often). OotS has no players thus that distinction makes no sense in the context of OotS at all.

skaddix

2012-07-16, 04:39 AM

Even if they can level, they are still XP Fodder.

We have seen one Goblin in Redcloak and maybe Righteye (Have not Red SOD) who are confirmed midlevels. RC headed on to Epic right now.

How many humans have we got confirmed at a least midlevel? Roy, Elan, Haley, Tarquin, Nale, Miko, several paladins, etc.

Finagle

2012-07-16, 05:03 AM

Goblin adventuring party fighting an otyugh. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html)

Kish

2012-07-16, 06:08 AM

On top of what FujinAkari said: The distinction between NPC and PC in OotS is blurry at best.
Not really. There is no one who is established as a PC without being one of the six protagonists; PC=Protagonist, NPC=Non-Protagonist. No blur needed unless someone wants the definition to be something else.

factotum

2012-07-16, 06:40 AM

Goblin adventuring party fighting an otyugh. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html)

Not really an adventuring party, is it? That's a group who were sent into the sewers to search for Xykon's phylactery, so it's more of a military squad doing as they're ordered than any sort of adventurers.

Finagle

2012-07-16, 07:50 AM

Not really an adventuring party, is it? That's a group who were sent into the sewers to search for Xykon's phylactery, so it's more of a military squad doing as they're ordered than any sort of adventurers.
They've got fighter, shooter, caster...sure looks like a party. If it's military why not just slaughter the thing with a mob of archers or a phalanx of swordsmen. There's another caster just standing around with his back to the action - hardly the way a competent military would handle a situation.

Dark Matter

2012-07-16, 09:00 AM

We saw what happened to Yokyok. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) A goblin or a kobold who were to try going on an adventure would risk being killed by the adventurers from the PC races for XP.Yokyok's death might have had something to do with him committing open murder on a defenseless creature in the middle of a lawful city. That's over and above being one of Nale's crew of killers.

B. Dandelion

2012-07-16, 09:22 AM

I am completely perplexed as to what Finagle is trying to argue -- that at the exact time and location a bunch of hobgoblins were out looking for Xykon's phylactery as they had been ordered, an unrelated hobgoblin adventuring party wandered through the same sewer on an equally unrelated quest?

The military's priority is to find the phylactery. The monster is probably only something they care about to the extent it threatens the search. So they throw a small strike force at it as the rest keep up the real task, since a larger force would require taking more people away from the priority search.

Kish

2012-07-16, 09:55 AM

Yokyok's death might have had something to do with him committing open murder on a defenseless creature in the middle of a lawful city. That's over and above being one of Nale's crew of killers.
Either Yokyok's death had everything to do with him being a kobold and Belkar being a PC race. Or Cliffport is not a lawful city, since "justice" is administered by lynch mobs with no questions asked (presumably, in the case you're arguing, if Yokyok and Belkar's initial confrontation had taken place outside the tavern and Yokyok had stuck a "halfling menace threatens nearly kobold" notice on the tavern door between Belkar saying his line about Yokyok wanting a piece of what took down his old man, and Elan announcing the Mark of Justice, the mob of adventurers would have smashed Belkar).

Pick one.

Morty

2012-07-16, 12:14 PM

Yokyok's death might have had something to do with him committing open murder on a defenseless creature in the middle of a lawful city. That's over and above being one of Nale's crew of killers.

Since when is a scribbled note pinned to the door of a tavern considered a due process before enforcing a death sentence? None of the adventurers even bothered to ask "what's going on?" or "why are you trying to kill this guy?".

Gift Jeraff

2012-07-16, 12:32 PM

Dark Matter

2012-07-16, 07:14 PM

Since when is a scribbled note pinned to the door of a tavern considered a due process before enforcing a death sentence? None of the adventurers even bothered to ask "what's going on?" or "why are you trying to kill this guy?".Nor did any of them read the note. That being the case we don't know what they knew and what they didn't. If they by the power of plot read the note, then they can also by the power of plot know exactly what YY was up to.

That said, I won't argue that the adventurers weren't looking for xp, they clearly were. But it's nonsense to state that YY was simply being a kobold. YY was actively in the process of committing a deeply evil act, had he not been in the process of committing a deeply evil act there wouldn't have been a problem.

...if Yokyok and Belkar's initial confrontation had taken place outside the tavern and Yokyok had stuck a "halfling menace threatens nearly kobold" notice on the tavern door...Again, YY was the one trying to commit open murder, and we don't know what the mob knew and what it didn't. As a general rule, if the PCs run across someone trying to commit open murder on a helpless person, then the PCs will step in. That's a staple.

It's very easy to picture Belkar being hunted by a mob for committing (or trying to commit) open murder. The only reason Miko didn't kill him was because she's a Paladin and her commander was right there.

The whole scene with YY is amusing because we know Belkar is evil, and supposedly YY was lawful good... but we could swap Belkar with Roy with no problems in actions, and similarly we could swap YY with Thog.

Chessgeek

2012-07-16, 09:55 PM

YY was actively in the process of committing a deeply evil act, had he not been in the process of committing a deeply evil act there wouldn't have been a problem.

What was the evil act? Murdering an evil halfling would have hardly been evil. Illegal perhaps, but that goes on the law/chaos axis, not good/evil.

ManuelSacha

2012-07-17, 02:38 AM

The difference used to be that the PC races had the gods on their side, and the cannon fodder didn't.

The Dark One is doing all he can to level the field, now.

Morty

2012-07-17, 02:56 AM

Nor did any of them read the note. That being the case we don't know what they knew and what they didn't. If they by the power of plot read the note, then they can also by the power of plot know exactly what YY was up to.

That said, I won't argue that the adventurers weren't looking for xp, they clearly were. But it's nonsense to state that YY was simply being a kobold. YY was actively in the process of committing a deeply evil act, had he not been in the process of committing a deeply evil act there wouldn't have been a problem.

So do you honestly believe that the adventurers would have descended in a mob upon a human, elf or halfling? Regardless of what YokYok was doing, killing him on the spot was not an appropriate response in any sort of lawful, civilized environment. The proper response would have been to apprehend him and give him to the authorities.

Dark Matter

2012-07-17, 10:38 AM

So do you honestly believe that the adventurers would have descended in a mob upon a human, elf or halfling?...Yeah, I do. How many games have you been in where you (an adventurer) runs across a thief killing some random civilian? The "adventurer" standard response "kill them", not "kill them if they're not a pc race". The "mob" was simply all adventurers doing the same thing at the same time.

The proper response would have been to apprehend him and give him to the authorities.And how often do we see adventurers do this in AD&D?

What was the evil act? Murdering an evil halfling would have hardly been evil. Illegal perhaps, but that goes on the law/chaos axis, not good/evil.Murder is always evil, even when it's on an evil monster (at least in Rich's world).

Further, Belkar being evil has nothing to do with the situation. YY was avenging his dad. His dad was a knife happy serial killer. When Belkar killed YY's dad, Belkar was simply defending himself, he wasn't doing anything that Roy couldn't have done.

Thus my statement about being able to substitute in Roy with no issues. If Roy had been the one to kill YY's dad, then YY would presumably have targeted Roy instead.

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 11:07 AM

Murder is always evil, even when it's on an evil monster (at least in Rich's world).

That makes being a Good Paladin very difficult, if you can't kill anything.

Winter

2012-07-17, 12:29 PM

That makes being a Good Paladin very difficult, if you can't kill anything.

"Killing" does not have to be "murder".

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 01:04 PM

"Killing" does not have to be "murder".

I suppose that's true, but what, would you say, is the difference?

Peelee

2012-07-17, 02:23 PM

I suppose that's true, but what, would you say, is the difference?

....are you being serious, or just trying to have him refine his argument?

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 02:42 PM

Peelee

2012-07-17, 02:51 PM

It's a legitimate question!
Where does the line need to be drawn?
Any paladin can just walk up to a creature, cast detect evil, and, if theye are indeed evil, outright kill them.
Meanwhile, YY finally had a chance to get revenge on the man who killed/murdered his father.
Call me clueless, and 90% of the time you'll be right. I just want some clarity on what other people are thinking.

I'd say in fantasy RPGs, killing for purely selfish reasons, killing defenseless creatures, and certain killings as described by the laws of wherever the people are in at the time would all count for murder.

Now, that's just a base guideline in standard fantasy RPGs (and if thy need to be corrected or changed in any way, I welcome edits). However, if a paladin walks up to a creature, casts detect evil, and if they are indeed evil, outright kills them, in the OotS world, that is murder.

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 02:58 PM

I'd say in fantasy RPGs, killing for purely selfish reasons, killing defenseless creatures, and certain killings as described by the laws of wherever the people are in at the time would all count for murder.

Now, that's just a base guideline in standard fantasy RPGs (and if thy need to be corrected or changed in any way, I welcome edits). However, if a paladin walks up to a creature, casts detect evil, and if they are indeed evil, outright kills them, in the OotS world, that is murder.

OK, and I like your definition of murder, but this comes back to Dark Matters statement that all murder is evil. Which, again, paladin.

Now I know you aren't Dark Matter, and you don't necessarily support everything he says, but I really only have a problem with that statement. So if you don't support it, then I don't think we have anything to argue about.

Peelee

2012-07-17, 03:05 PM

OK, and I like your definition of murder, but this comes back to Dark Matters statement that all murder is evil. Which, again, paladin.

Now I know you aren't Dark Matter, and you don't necessarily support everything he says, but I really only have a problem with that statement. So if you don't support it, then I don't think we have anything to argue about.

But all murder is evil. That is pretty much the biggest difference between killing and murder. If the Paladin murders, he'll fall. By class descriptor, no the Paladin cannot murder. He can kill, if for example a creature is threatening him or another, as is very often the case in most campaigns.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: All murder is evil. Not all killing is evil.

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 03:12 PM

But all murder is evil. That is pretty much the biggest difference between killing and murder. If the Paladin murders, he'll fall. By class descriptor, no the Paladin cannot murder. He can kill, if for example a creature is threatening him or another, as is very often the case in most campaigns.

Interesting point. Take comics 214-215 as an example of what I mean. Miko did not even attempt to diplomatically discuss a peaceful release of the dirt farmer, instead went straight to combat. She then killed one of the orcs. Yes, he was armed, but she did not need to start a confrontation, or cast Detect Evil at all (onscreen) for that matter.

Peelee

2012-07-17, 03:20 PM

Interesting point. Take comics 214-215 as an example of what I mean. Miko did not even attempt to diplomatically discuss a peaceful release of the dirt farmer, instead went straight to combat. She then killed one of the orcs. Yes, he was armed, but she did not need to start a confrontation, or cast Detect Evil at all (onscreen) for that matter.

Very true. It is important here to keep in mind that Miko was specifically developed as the absolute worst way to play a paladin, and her actions culminated in a massive fall (I believe The Giant described it as "the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much."

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 03:36 PM

Very true. It is important here to keep in mind that Miko was specifically developed as the absolute worst way to play a paladin, and her actions culminated in a massive fall (I believe The Giant described it as "the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much."

Ha, I can agree to that. I guess my only question left at this point would be: how do you justify the fact that Miko didn't fall after 215? Simply because the orc was armed and about to fight? I have to admit that it seems plausible to me.

B. Dandelion

2012-07-17, 03:43 PM

Nor did any of them read the note. That being the case we don't know what they knew and what they didn't. If they by the power of plot read the note, then they can also by the power of plot know exactly what YY was up to.

People on one side of a door being able to read a note posted on the other side is impossible. However they clearly acted on the note. For the scene to make sense we must assume "the power of plot" let them read it -- that, or they had been planning to rush out the door that moment anyway, and the timing was just a coincidence. The less implausible option is that they read it somehow.

It's not impossible to behave in a reckless and/or racist fashion. We don't need some additional "power of plot" to explain that away as an inconsistency. The less implausible option is that they were behaving recklessly and/or jumped to racist conclusions.

If Belkar had walked into the pub and said what was on the note -- and no more -- and the adventurers had behaved the way they did with the note, would it be very different?

Peelee

2012-07-17, 03:44 PM

Ha, I can agree to that. I guess my only question left at this point would be: how do you justify the fact that Miko didn't fall after 215? Simply because the orc was armed and about to fight? I have to admit that it seems plausible to me.

Probably. She gave them plenty of opportunity to get ready, and they certainly seemed up to fight her. Also, with the whole kidnapping thing, I'd classify that as a threat to others. She most certainly gave them warning and the chance for a fair fight.

Chessgeek

2012-07-17, 03:49 PM

Probably. She gave them plenty of opportunity to get ready, and they certainly seemed up to fight her. Also, with the whole kidnapping thing, I'd classify that as a threat to others. She most certainly gave them warning and the chance for a fair fight.

M'kay. I don't really have much else to argue about so...PEACE AND COOKIES FOR ALL!

Dark Matter

2012-07-17, 08:08 PM

If Belkar had walked into the pub and said what was on the note -- and no more -- and the adventurers had behaved the way they did with the note, would it be very different?Probably. But the better question is *should* they have acted any different?

The thing is, the note was correct. Stripped of all funny elements, we have a guy with a knife in his hand committing open murder on a helpless victim.

Yes, granted, we had a group of adventurers engaged in xp gathering. But the weird part is they weren't doing anything wrong. If Roy had been there, Belkar wouldn't have needed to write the note because Roy could have killed YY without issues. Miko could have killed YY without falling, ditto Hinjo.

And they could/would have done it if YY had been human, sort of like what the Order is trying right now on Elan's dad.

Gift Jeraff

2012-07-17, 08:45 PM

Roy would have probably captured Yokyok, exactly as he tried to do to Sabine, Leeky, and Pompey. Why would he have killed him?

B. Dandelion

2012-07-17, 09:01 PM

Probably. But the better question is *should* they have acted any different?

If the entire purpose of the question is to determine the mindset of people present, it's not. It seems like your point is the adventurers ultimately did justice and that is what is important, even if (ironically enough) justice was the furthest thing from their minds. But the example came up in the context of negative prejudices people have against humanoid monsters and how they are likely to act on them. That's an example of the mindset in action. Even if in that instance two wrongs made a right, it's still valid -- and even though this is not the topic, I don't think the two wrongs did make a right. I think in the scene we see Belkar very cleverly play on stereotypes with a predictable outcome. In the process he saves his own bacon, and a misguided person behaving badly dies so that an evil person can go on to live and kill some more, because of the willingness of adventurers to both make hasty assumptions and to kill things on sight. Fridge Logic may get you to reason the outcome was actually less ugly than it seemed, but it's not the point of the scene in the story. You're trying to argue outside of that context, yet the entire point of bringing it up is its meaning in-context: this is how people behave, this is how humanoids can expect to be treated.

And they could/would have done it if YY had been human,

We definitely do not know that. In fact I think the scene runs on the assumption that these are adventurers out to kill things. THINGS. Not people. Humanoids are things and not people.

sort of like what the Order is trying right now on Elan's dad.

They are not chasing Tarquin, leaping into the fray because of some heard-about threat. He went after them. They planned an ambush as a counter-assault. And if they do kill him -- as opposed to defeating and imprisoning him or what have you -- they will not be doing so because "getting paid to kill things is a cornerstone of the world's economy".

Kish

2012-07-17, 09:30 PM

Probably. But the better question is *should* they have acted any different?

The thing is, the note was correct. Stripped of all funny elements, we have a guy with a knife in his hand committing open murder on a helpless victim.

Yes, granted, we had a group of adventurers engaged in xp gathering. But the weird part is they weren't doing anything wrong.
I take it you're a strict consequentialist then?

There are actually philosophies in the world which state that if you go out, in a violent mood, and punch the first person you see, you've done something wrong even if, when you punch him, he drops a gun and you discover that you accidentally prevented a bank robbery.

...Actually, being a strict consequentialist doesn't work either, because Belkar being dead would be a good consequence and so--for a strict consequentialist--it wouldn't matter if it was "open murder" with a knife or Xykon getting in some Meteor Swarm practice. Never mind. I just don't understand your stance at all.

You say it would "probably" have been very different if Belkar had walked into the bar and said exactly was on the note. Would you like to elaborate?

factotum

2012-07-18, 01:36 AM

...Actually, being a strict consequentialist doesn't work either, because Belkar being dead would be a good consequence

No, it wouldn't. If Belkar had died in Cliffport then most of the Order would be dead--they would have been killed by the archers on the wall at Azure City. Plus Hinjo would have been killed earlier by the poison arrow. Even if they'd somehow survived that, Haley and Celia would have died in Old Pete's basement without Belkar's intervention.

Now, unless you're arguing that something even worse was actually triggered by Belkar being alive (and no, I don't think killing the Oracle comes under that category), Belkar dying in Cliffport would have had consequences far more serious than your bank robbery example!

Dark Matter

2012-07-18, 08:12 AM

Ha, I can agree to that. I guess my only question left at this point would be: how do you justify the fact that Miko didn't fall after 215? Simply because the orc was armed and about to fight? I have to admit that it seems plausible to me.Why should Miko have fallen? The Ogres were running around killing/kidnaping/(eating?) people. That's not just "Evil alignment", that's "active deeds which merit action".

Roy would have probably captured Yokyok, exactly as he tried to do to Sabine, Leeky, and Pompey. Why would he have killed him?Sabine, Leeky, and Pompey all surrendered. Oddly, in this case it was Belkar who first tried to end the fight non-fatally (by him running away) and it was YY who continued it. For YY this was a matter of to-the-death honor.

If the entire purpose of the question is to determine the mindset of people present, it's not. It seems like your point is the adventurers ultimately did justice and that is what is important, even if (ironically enough) justice was the furthest thing from their minds. Even ignoring that some of those adventurers might have been evil (aka Belkar), their "mindset" needs assumptions on your part. Their information about the scene is via the power of plot, so we could do a full stop with "did justice".

But the example came up in the context of negative prejudices people have against humanoid monsters and how they are likely to act on them.That would mean much more without the "openly committing murder on a defenseless man" part. It's not a racist action to call a murderer a murderer.

...a misguided person behaving badly dies so that an evil person can go on to live and kill some more...I'd love to see Belkar die and get replaced by OChul, Hinjo, or the gal with the shark.

We definitely do not know that. In fact I think the scene runs on the assumption that these are adventurers out to kill things. THINGS. Not people. Humanoids are things and not people.The moment we treat the adventurers as individuals and not as symbols the situation looks different.

Belkar (the evil standard) was willing to kill Elan for xp. If the adventurers are evil like him then everyone is a "thing". If the adventurers were good, then YY's problem isn't that he's from a monster race, it's that he's been caught doing something monstrous.

Here the problem isn't that the stereotypes exist, the problem is that they're being followed (and Rich is a genius for making us forget that). The LG monster was acting like a CE monster and doing foul deeds. You don't get to claim "prejudice" if he's treated like he's doing what he's doing.

They are not chasing Tarquin, leaping into the fray because of some heard-about threat. He went after them. Tarquin is going after Roy/OOTS just like YY went after Belkar. Roy/OOTS is turning the tables.

And if they do kill him -- as opposed to defeating and imprisoning him or what have you -- they will not be doing so because "getting paid to kill things is a cornerstone of the world's economy".That's a quote from Belkar. He's seriously evil and so is his mindset. If we ask him he'd probably say that killing Tarquin (and taking his stuff) is exactly "getting paid to kill things".

...I just don't understand your stance at all.Would it have been Good for YY to kill Belkar?

You say it would "probably" have been very different if Belkar had walked into the bar and said exactly was on the note. Would you like to elaborate?I'd expect us to know more about the adventurers and whether they're good/evil or whatever. Or in other words we'd have the evil adventurers acting out of racism and greed, and the good ones acting out of justice (etc) (and all of them xp gathering).

But the scene is less funny if the adventurers are individuals.

Kish

2012-07-18, 08:32 AM

Why should Miko have fallen? The Ogres were running around killing/kidnaping/(eating?) people. That's not just "Evil alignment", that's "active deeds which merit action".
Sabine, Leeky, and Pompey all surrendered. Oddly, in this case it was Belkar who first tried to end the fight non-fatally (by him running away) and it was YY who continued it. For YY this was a matter of to-the-death honor.

He tried to run away after Elan pointed out that he couldn't hope to win. He didn't try to surrender.

Even ignoring that some of those adventurers might have been evil (aka Belkar), their "mindset" needs assumptions on your part.

Mm...no. What you call "assumptions on [B. Dandelion's] part," I call "accepting the obvious connotations of the scene rather than reaching for a way it wasn't a joke about how racist nearly all humans in this world are."

Their information about the scene is via the power of plot, so we could do a full stop with "did justice".

That justice had Thing One to do with it is a huge assumption on your part.

You started off with "Cliffport is a lawful city." You still do not seem to grasp the massive problem with, "Cliffport is a lawful city, as demonstrated by this lynch mob lynching someone."

That would mean much more without the "openly committing murder on a defenseless man" part. It's not a racist action to call a murderer a murderer.

But they didn't call Yokyok a murderer. They called him XP.

The moment we treat the adventurers as individuals and not as symbols the situation looks different. Belkar (the evil standard) was willing to kill Elan for xp. If the adventurers are evil like him then everyone is a "thing". If the adventurers were good, then YY's problem isn't that he's from a monster race, it's that he's been caught doing something monstrous.

And, again, you're assuming a very particular level of knowledge they have: Just enough to know that Belkar is currently defenseless and that Yokyok started the current round of hostilities. If Yokyok had put a note on the tavern that said "Halfling menace in downtown Cliffport threatens nearby kobold," if you think the adventurers would have come busting out and attacked Belkar, well, I'm afraid I think you have to be aggressively dodging some of the comic's themes for that claim to make any sense.

Tarquin is going after Roy/OOTS just like YY went after Belkar. Roy/OOTS is turning the tables.

And you're blurring again. This time, not "justice" and "lynch mob," but rather, "killing him for XP and crowing about making him scream" and "engaging in any form of battle ever."

Would it have been Good for YY to kill Belkar?

I am not a consequentialist, strict or otherwise. I consider it not virtuous for Yokyok to have allied with an evil no greater but marginally more effective than Belkar to hunt Belkar, and not virtuous for Yokyok to accept "assisting Nale with Nale's larger evil scheme" for the righteous cause of killing Belkar. Either is still a great deal better than "participating in a lynch mob which you have the word of a random halfling, who is now crowing about you making his enemy scream louder, is a defensive lynch mob."

If I was a consequentialist, then yes, anything that made Belkar dead would be good. Yokyok, Xykon, a random manhole cover.
Edited to add:

Further, Belkar being evil has nothing to do with the situation. YY was avenging his dad. His dad was a knife happy serial killer. When Belkar killed YY's dad, Belkar was simply defending himself, he wasn't doing anything that Roy couldn't have done.
So you think it's just a coincidence that, of all the Order's enemies in the first Linear Guild fight, Yikyik was the only one to die? I truly do not understand how the case you're arguing begins to seem viable to you.

Chessgeek

2012-07-18, 10:21 AM

Why should Miko have fallen? The Ogres were running around killing/kidnaping/(eating?) people. That's not just "Evil alignment", that's "active deeds which merit action".

There are likely more than one group of ogres, by the way, and since she did jack to gain any information, that's a pretty fail job by a paladin. But I have already agreed that that is A. A poor way to play a paladin, and B. not the best example of what is fall-worthy.

thrompton

2012-07-18, 05:41 PM

To go back to the subject at heart...

Goblins can level, that's for sure. But, as for any other race, only a minority are doing it. Most human are becoming merchants or farmer, staying lvl1 their whole life. It's the same thing with goblins.
A few of them gain level as they grow in importance (Redcloak for example). But most of them stay first or second level and never even TRY to be better.

And to had a little something about the "killing vs murder by a paladin" thing. The paladin needs to stay lawful good, so he can't kill something, unless it's obviously evil or absolutely necessary for the Greater Good.
BUT.
Most of all, it has to follow a code of conduit. He can (even need) to kill evil creature. But, he can't come like a rogue and murder them in their sleep. The enemy needs to be ready to fight. Paladin shouldn't be sneaky or treacherous. Their whole life need to be honorable, it's the point of the thing. Like a samurai, honor is more important than life. So you can't murder, you must give mercy if asked, etc. etc. But, if needed, you are perfectly able to kill.

tomaO2

2012-08-08, 10:39 PM

I'm really surprised by how well this thread is doing so far. I didn't expect it to last this long.

Anywho, one comment that interested me "was what did the goblins worship before the Dark One"? Did goblins have clerics before he came along? Perhaps being an NPC race is more about if you have the favor of a god or not.

I'm thinking this because the gods mention that NPC races are made for godly classes. Paladins and clerics, for example. I notice now that orcs only have shaman, although they can gain levels (Thog), it might be that the lack of a real god to worship to is the most important disqualifier to becoming a PC?

If that is the case then isn't is possible that by virtue of having a god to pray to that the Goblins are no longer a NPC race? I would find it amusing if the equality that RedCloak had been fighting for all this time had already come to pass and it was simply the lack of the ability of the goblin people that has stopped their "golden age" from beginning.

Jay R

2012-08-09, 09:19 AM

If that is the case then isn't is possible that by virtue of having a god to pray to that the Goblins are no longer a NPC race? I would find it amusing if the equality that RedCloak had been fighting for all this time had already come to pass and it was simply the lack of the ability of the goblin people that has stopped their "golden age" from beginning.

Have you read Start of Darkness? What Redcloak is fighting for hasn't come to pass yet, and what's stopping their "golden age" from beginning isn't "simply the lack of the ability of the goblin people", but periodic genocidal raids on their homes and villages.

Kish

2012-08-09, 09:47 AM

"The lack of the ability of the goblin people" is in large part because they're an NPC race, not a PC race, statistically inferior to the PC races because they're designed to be antagonists.

Gift Jeraff

2012-08-09, 11:26 AM

I didn't expect it to last this long.

It didn't.

tomaO2

2012-08-09, 08:55 PM

Have you read Start of Darkness? What Redcloak is fighting for hasn't come to pass yet, and what's stopping their "golden age" from beginning isn't "simply the lack of the ability of the goblin people", but periodic genocidal raids on their homes and villages.

That's just one city's worth of Paladins that are doing that. We don't know what other areas are like. None of the other Guarded gates we have looked at seem to have developed any interest in hunting down goblins at least. In any case, it's not like there will be an end of conflict at some point down the road, even if everything Redcloak wishes for comes to pass.

Besides, those attacks began fairly recently. The Dark One has been a god for far longer then the snarl almost broke out of its prision.