Suggestion Spell?

[Dude_Here]

Hi,

I'm playing a 5th level bard and was wondering if the suggestion spell would be worth taking? I've chosen alter self and heroism(to be switched out for greater heroism later) as my other level 2 spells so far.

It seems to me that the spell is very open to interpretation. During an interrogation I guess you could say something like,"You should tell them what they want to know; they may spare your life."

I'm curious how most DM's handle its use in a combat situation. I saw this
example on another forums' site:


Rather than simply suggest you attack your friend, you should suggest that the evil doppleganger who looks like your friend needs to be killed now before it causes trouble.


I don't know if this would fly with most DM's though.

[Jack_Simth]

The version in the Player's Handbook tells you much more than the SRD version. Immediately after the "obviously harmful act" clause in the text, the actual book continues with "However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter" (Player's Handbook, page 285) - kinda implying it can do some pretty severe sense-warping.

So yes, Doppleganger suggestion really should fly.

[dascarletm]

Yeah it is really DM dependent, the same with illusions, combat reflexes, etc.

I had a DM who was the worst when it came to suggestion.

He would always quote the "obviously harmful" clause, even when it shouldn't apply. Hell I even used one of the sample suggestions in the spell description, and he said it was no good till i showed him the book.

Me: I suggest you get your wizard to stop casting spells, and we can all work together as a team.

DM: That's not within the power of suggestion.

Me: Howso?

DM: It's obviously harmful to him, because you guys will just capture them or kill them.

Me: :smallfurious:


The spell if used correctly is pretty damn good in my opinion. Like you said you can do most anything if you word it cleverly. It allows a will save so use it on the BSF. :smallbiggrin:

[Malimar]

My first inclination is to say that suggestion probably isn't the best spell choice for a 5th-level bard, not because of the quality of the spell (it's a perfectly decent spell), but because you get it for free as a bardic music class feature at level 6. But I haven't actually played a bard myself, so I don't know how often the sing-fascinate-suggestion sequence of events occurs in actual play.

[AntiTrust]

My first inclination is to say that suggestion probably isn't the best spell choice for a 5th-level bard, not because of the quality of the spell (it's a perfectly decent spell), but because you get it for free as a bardic music class feature at level 6. But I haven't actually played a bard myself, so I don't know how often the sing-fascinate-suggestion sequence of events occurs in actual play.

In that same vein, although slightly off topic, why take heroism when its moral bonus won't stack with his bardic music ability. As for suggestion along with a lot of illusion/enchantment spells the issue comes to the DM not factoring in the use of it when creating encounters. Suddenly the big combat at the end that was supposed to be the majority of the time spent in that session has been cut short when the BBEG suddenly (insert clever use of spell).

Talk to him about the spell and maybe a few others (charm person, dominate person, fascinate, etc) and just ask him where the boundaries are. Even ask him for some example of what he would allow as proper uses and work from those examples to come up with your own along those same lines.

[jackattack]

As a DM, I would completely ignore the pool-of-acid example. Nothing in the spell description says that it alters the target's perceptions or beliefs. The fact that you have to word it "in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable" belies the idea that the target's outlook or perceptions change.

If the target doesn't know (or strongly believe) that the activity suggested is harmful, then it's open season. "It's hot, why not take a dip" works if the target doesn't know it's a pool of acid, or a river full of alligators, or a fountain of shrinking. If they do know, they shouldn't follow the suggestion.

If your bard is involved in lots of urban, courtly intrigue, and town-based adventures, then suggestion is a fine spell to take. If he's buffing a party as they travel through dungeons, wilderness, ancient ruins, and graveyards, then don't bother.

[dascarletm]

As a DM, I would completely ignore the pool-of-acid example. Nothing in the spell description says that it alters the target's perceptions or beliefs. The fact that you have to word it "in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable" belies the idea that the target's outlook or perceptions change.


I suppose a Bluff check can change that :smallwink:

[sreservoir]

As a DM, I would completely ignore the pool-of-acid example. Nothing in the spell description says that it alters the target's perceptions or beliefs. The fact that you have to word it "in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable" belies the idea that the target's outlook or perceptions change.

a pool of acid tends to look a lot like actual water. it mostly is actual water, in fact. pure water is something to the effect of 55 M H₂O, so even saturated acid solutions are usually more water than acid. and while it depends on the specific acid, of course, the most common acids are transparent liquids.

if you had, say, hydrofluoric or sulphuric or nitric acid at not-too-high concentration, you wouldn't necessarily be able to distinguish them from water at a glance. you'd find out the hard way if you, say, dipped your finger in, though.

[ericgrau]

@^ Exactly, it's reasonable enough that he would get right in without testing it or smelling it first.

The key is that the suggestion be reasonable and not outlandish. There's even a save penalty if it's very reasonable. It's more subtle like a Jedi mind trick than a domination or a belief rewrite. Try telling a foe that his boss isn't paying him enough to risk his life like this and it's time for a day off. If you want to dominate that's a 9th level spell, changing what he thinks is bard 3 or 4.

In general I don't think single target save effects are very good spell options. Many things are immune, those that aren't might still save and it doesn't stack with the damage efforts of your allies. Bards get suggestion a level early which is a plus, but still not enough. In general enchantments are better when used with some trickery, to gain allies or to get past a foe in a way that won't alert others. Illusions too.

Instead for your typical unsubtle party I might try glitterdust, invisibility or pyrotechnics (if you can pull off the difficult conditions). Silence is great if you face a lot of casters and also is great when cast on side passages when trying to move a typical loud clanky party through a sensitive area. If you do a lot of dungeon runs (or anything that takes an hour rather than all day travel) spamming heroism makes for an excellent secondary spell. i.e. after you're casting 3rd or 4th level spells and need to burn your 2nd level slots.

[drack]

Combine it with whispering wind, telepathy, message, ect and you don't need to implicate yourself in whatever crazy things that old fool decided to get himself into. :smalltongue:

[jackattack]

The acid example specifically says that the caster suggests that acid is water, implying that the target already knows, or could perceive the danger before jumping in. Which makes the suggestion unreasonable/dangerous, unless that knowledge is somehow removed or changed.

By some means other than the suggestion spell itself. Otherwise, the caster can make the target do anything just by suggesting the target's knowledge and perceptions of reality away.

[Wookie-ranger]

The acid example specifically says that the caster suggests that acid is water, implying that the target already knows, or could perceive the danger before jumping in. Which makes the suggestion unreasonable/dangerous, unless that knowledge is somehow removed or changed.

By some means other than the suggestion spell itself. Otherwise, the caster can make the target do anything just by suggesting the target's knowledge and perceptions of reality away.

I kind of know what you mean. the suggests spell is very open for interpretation.
If you know it is acid then jumping into it is harmful, and the spell shold fail.
If the person in the spell description does not know that is it acid, a nice dip in the 'pool' might sound very nice! (even if you are usually very careful, and don't just go diving into something you do not know, especially on adventures)
However, if the person the the spell description does know that it is acid, and the spell persuades you to think it it water, what prevents the spell caster from suggesting that the 200ft chasm in front of you is really a pleasant slow flowing river, where you should take your dive?

Did we just find ANOTHER spell can is so vague that it is on the edge of brokenness unless with DM intervention? :smallwink:

[nedz]

"These are not the Druids you are looking for"

"Gentlemen. No need to fight over me!"

Suggestion is a very powerful spell, when it works. But it is also very subtle.
Its a good choice for a Bard with decent save DCs, but it wouldn't be my first or second choice for a precious spell known, after all you can achieve Mass Suggestion with your music if you have to. Now, Mass Suggestion, there's a spell.:smallcool:

But first of all, please make sure you are in a campaign where this is a relevant choice; because Suggestion is also very situational.

[Ernir]

Not entirely on-topic, but very many acids smell like an undead devil's armpit... kind of hard to mistake them for water.



I'm curious how most DM's handle its use in a combat situation. I saw this
example on another forums' site:


Rather than simply suggest you attack your friend, you should suggest that the evil doppleganger who looks like your friend needs to be killed now before it causes trouble.
I don't know if this would fly with most DM's though.
If you're doing it in combat, I'd want a bit of an explanation of how the doppelganger managed the switch in plain sight, but otherwise, yes, I don't think it's outside the Suggestion's power.

A similar scenario has actually happened in one of my games. (I was the DM.)

Succubus: *Disguises herself as a Wizard at night*
Succubus: "Hey, Barbarian, wake up!"
Barbarian: "Huh? Wizard? What's up?"
Succubus: "There's an impostor in my room! I went out, and when I came back, there he was." *Bluff*
Barbarian: "What?!"
Succubus: "Yeah, he probably meant to kill us all in our sleep, only I managed to get out again before he noticed I was there."
Succubus: "Let's go get him first!" *Suggestion*
Barbarian: "****! Let's go!"

... a few rounds of confused combat later, that was how that Wizard died for the first time.

[Psyren]

There are a couple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050812a) of articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050819a) on adjucating charms/suggestions that might help the OP. But ultimately it will come down to the DM's preferences and willingness to work with the player.

If you at all think that your DM will rule against you regularly, focus on the enchantments whose effects are easy to determine (e.g. command, sleep, hold person etc.) and leave the more open-ended stuff alone, as it will merely be a waste of resources on your part - as well as a source of constant bickering and grudges.

[Zaq]

As has been said, Suggestion is open-ended enough that it really relies on your GM, much like the Image line of spells. A few I've either tried or want to try:

"Your weapon has been cursed! Your only hope is to fling it far away, over there!"

"There's an invisible enemy behind you! You don't have time to waste on us . . . you had better just attack it with all you've got!"

"Your friend there is actually sleeping with your wife! Don't you think you should do something about that?" (Unlikely to get Target A to actually attack Target B, but likely to buy you a round or two of confusion.)

a pool of acid tends to look a lot like actual water. it mostly is actual water, in fact. pure water is something to the effect of 55 M H₂O, so even saturated acid solutions are usually more water than acid. and while it depends on the specific acid, of course, the most common acids are transparent liquids.

if you had, say, hydrofluoric or sulphuric or nitric acid at not-too-high concentration, you wouldn't necessarily be able to distinguish them from water at a glance. you'd find out the hard way if you, say, dipped your finger in, though.

This is D&D. Acid is assumed to be bubbling green glop until proven otherwise, because most players (and more importantly, most DMs) don't know or don't care how real acid works.

This is the same kind of thinking that leads to lava being treated as basically red glowing water that you shouldn't touch, but that you can fight just a few feet away from and be perfectly fine. Oh, and that you can quickly sink in, despite the fact that it's absurdly dense.