Regarding Reserve Feats and Maneuvers

[Feralventas]

I'm currently playing a bardic character (Bard5, Lyric Thaumaterge PrC 6) with the reserve feat Clap of Thunder (+1 CL on Sonic spells, allows the use of a Supernatural Ability to make a melee touch attack that deals 1d6 sonic damage per spell level of the highest sonic spell I can still cast, +fort save or be deafened). However, I've yet to really make this character work; built heavily for interactions in a campaign I hadn't realized was going to be rather devoid of viable interactions. I'm looking to take my next level in Warblade, but I'm looking for a second opinion as to whether the Reserve Feat's ability can be used to function as the weapon of a maneuver.

The rational I have is that the maneuver is initiated as part of a melee attack, and that the supernatural ability is a standard action (as a normal attack) that does not provoke AOO's (as a normal attack) and involves an attack roll vs AC (Albeit touch AC, but the same can be said for a Warlock's Eldritch Glaive or any weapon of Brilliant Energy). Therefore, the maneuver should be able to be executed using the CoT ability just as it would a weapon.

I could be mistaken in RAW, thus I'd like some feedback.

[Waker]

Did you have a specific maneuver in mind? I'm not as versed in initiators as others here, but I would assume that the maneuver can be used as long as the action required is a swift or move action to activate. If it requires a standard or full-round action, it wouldn't be able to work with Clap of Thunder.
Clap of Thunder requires a standard action to use. If it instead said that you could use it in place of a melee attack, it would be fine.

[eggs]

They shouldn't work together.

Clap of Thunder is a standard action which allows characters to make an attack roll.
Maneuvers are also standard actions which allow characters to make attack rolls.

Neither allows a character to use another standard action (so a maneuver can't be nested in a Clap of Thunder, and Clap of Thunder can't be nested in a maneuver).

[T.G. Oskar]

The rational I have is that the maneuver is initiated as part of a melee attack, and that the supernatural ability is a standard action (as a normal attack) that does not provoke AOO's (as a normal attack) and involves an attack roll vs AC (Albeit touch AC, but the same can be said for a Warlock's Eldritch Glaive or any weapon of Brilliant Energy). Therefore, the maneuver should be able to be executed using the CoT ability just as it would a weapon.

I could be mistaken in RAW, thus I'd like some feedback.

You've just solved your own question.

Note the difference: a strike maneuver is initiated as a standard action (not as part of a melee attack), but it's essentially a melee attack for all purposes that would affect thus (aside from initiating combat maneuvers). You can't use a maneuver with an Attack of Opportunity, which should give you an idea.

On the other hand, even if that were true, Clap of Thunder is not a melee attack per se. It isn't defined as a melee attack, but rather as a standard action supernatural ability. It's not the same nor it is written the same. You'd have to wonder whether melee touch attacks count as melee attacks, but the standard action is what really kills it.

There IS one Reserve Feat that can count, however. Blade of Force is essentially a sorta-magical boost that can be activated as a swift action, and applies only to your next attack. Since a maneuver is considered a melee attack for purposes of things that improve melee attacks (such as whether the flaming weapon property applies), you can deploy the extra damage from Blade of Force as part of a maneuver (and thus attack incorporeal creatures with your maneuvers with no miss chance whatsoever).

[Feralventas]

@Walker, I was in part looking at a lot of the White Raven and Devoted Soul (JPM after Warblade) maneuvers. I suppose if CoT and maneuvers are incompatible I'll be mostly looking at swift-action boosts and counters like Wall of Blades and Moment of the Perfect Mind.

@Eggs, Initiating a maneuver often involves a standard attack or other standard action; if initiating a maneuver prevents you from taking a standard action it would be impossible to make that attack roll since that also requires a standard action.

The wording on CoT is "As long as you have a sonic spell of 3rd level or
higher available to cast, you can deliver a melee touch attack
as a standard action." This seems to imply that using this action would be the same and wielding a weapon to make an attack roll, albeit perhaps not with iterative attacks via BAB.

@T.G. Oskar,
The rest of the sentence brings up why I disagree that the bold lettering is the doom of the concept; Yes both the Feat's ability and a maneuver require a standard action, but the maneuver initiates an attack as part of its process; an attack the likes of which the feat grants.

Reserve feats are not defined as attacks, the but the ability granted by CoT is. I'll look into Force effects on the bard list, but I think I'd have to wait for 14th caster level to switch out one of the Wizard/Sorcerer spells I gained from Lyric Thaumaturge instead; probably Orb of Force or some such.



Am I making any sense in this, or do I misunderstand the concepts I'm working with?

[eggs]

@Eggs, Initiating a maneuver often involves a standard attack or other standard action
That's not true. Most permit "a melee attack." None permit "a standard action ability."

EDIT:
Quick example: Vanguard strike says:
"As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against an opponent you threaten."
A single melee attack is a subset of standard action options, not the other way around.

[Feralventas]

"In combat, the most prevalent standard action is an attack."
-PHB.

[eggs]

"In combat, the most prevalent standard action is an attack."
-PHB.That doesn't contradict me.

Standard action attacks are a subcategory of standard actions, not the other way around. That's why Clerics can't cast 3 spells as a full attack.

[Feralventas]

The attack is a subset of standard actions, not the other way around. That's why Clerics can't cast 3 spells as a full attack.

A full-attack action isn't a standard action either.

Perhaps a different approach would work; The feat allows for a standard action to make a melee touch attack. If I were to use this to target a weapon, it would function as a Sunder attempt.

If it's viable to use as part of a special attack action, why wouldn't it be usable for a maneuver?

As to the lack of contradiction, I understand that an attack action isn't the definition of a standard action, but it Does require a SA to be used.

[eggs]

If it's viable to use as part of a special attack action, why wouldn't it be usable for a maneuver?
Because special attacks are a subset of attacks and one kind of attack is a subset of standard actions.

[Feralventas]

I don't think I'm going to make any more headway on this. I don't agree, but I know I'm kinda terrible when it comes to this sort of logic. Thanks for your help none the less, and I'm sorry if I've been frustrating.

If you don't mind my asking, from a balance perspective, would this be an unbalancing aspect of the game if it Were possible to use CoT as the weapon part of a maneuver (for example, Saphire Nightmare Blade or Soaring Raptor Strike)? It doesn't seem any more deadly than a Warlock with Eldritch Blast using Eldritch Glaive for maneuvers.

[Waker]

It would actually be weaker than using Eldritch Glaive. At least with that invocation you would be allowed iterative attacks. The Clap specifically requires a standard action.

[Feralventas]

...The Clap...

I know it's unprofessional, but I chuckled.

[eggs]

If you don't mind my asking, from a balance perspective, would this be an unbalancing aspect of the game if it Were possible to use CoT as the weapon part of a maneuver (for example, Saphire Nightmare Blade or Soaring Raptor Strike)? It doesn't seem any more deadly than a Warlock with Eldritch Blast using Eldritch Glaive for maneuvers.
I don't think it'd be a problem.

Personally, I'd allow CoT specifically, but I wouldn't generalize it to all "Standard actions involving a melee attack" - that would allow silly things like Crusaders nesting all their recovered strikes into one attack each round.

[Feralventas]

I don't think it'd be a problem.

Personally, I'd allow CoT specifically, but I wouldn't generalize it to all "Standard actions involving a melee attack" - that would allow silly things like Crusaders nesting all their recovered strikes into one attack each round.

The only maneuver I can think of granting multiple actions is the 9th level Diamond Mind maneuver granting 2 full-round attacks. Does Devoted soul have something like that I missed? (or maybe Stone Dragon; I really don't pay attention aside from the Elder Hammers there).

[Keld Denar]

I'm pretty sure your build is illegal. LT has skill prereqs that make it very very difficult to get in before ECL6, with the first level being ECL7. You could have a Bard6/LT5, but you could not have a Bard5/LT6.

[Feralventas]

O.O So it is. I'll have to check that by my DM at the same time then. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[eggs]

The only maneuver I can think of granting multiple actions is the 9th level Diamond Mind maneuver granting 2 full-round attacks. Does Devoted soul have something like that I missed? (or maybe Stone Dragon; I really don't pay attention aside from the Elder Hammers there).
No, but most strikes are standard action special abilities that require the initiator to make a melee attack - very similar to Clap of Thunder. So if there's a houserule that standard action special abilities that involve melee attacks are allowed to deliver strikes, the houserule would allow strikes to deliver strikes.

But while it's pretty reasonable to allow a Clap of Thunder to deliver a Feral Death Blow, it would be much less reasonable to allow something like a Strike of Perfect Clarity in a Diamond Nightmare Blade in a Lightning Throw.

So if CoT is allowed to be used in this context, it should be flagged as a special exception, rather than an example of the rule. Otherwise things will get crazy. I used the Crusader as an example because of its recovery mechanic; if it's permitted to deliver strikes inside other strikes, it will be able to use every one of its maneuvers at once, and to do so every round.

[Hiro Protagonest]

"In combat, the most prevalent standard action is an attack."
-PHB.

By that logic, casting Wall of Stone is an attack. Or Wall of Force. Or Guidance of the Avatar.

[Feralventas]

By that logic, casting Wall of Stone is an attack. Or Wall of Force. Or Guidance of the Avatar.

um....

"If a Standard Action is an Attack,

then

A Spell is An Attack."

is not what that meant. An attack is a standard action, and a standard action can be an attack. A spell can require a standard action, but need not be an attack.

The issue I thought I had brought up was that the feat lets me make a specific kind of attack, and asking if that sort of attack would be usable in combination with an ability that involves making an attack.

[Answerer]

It isn't. You can spend a Standard Action to attack one way or the other (Clap of Thunder and whatever strike you're using), but you cannot combine them. Even if you had two Standard Actions, you would only be using one after the other, not combining them.

[Tim Proctor]

You should really look at Sublime Cord at lvl 10 if you plan on using the feat.

I'd see if your DM will allow you to reverse the last couple levels, it'll allow you to increase your spell level and do more damage with the feat as well as give you some of the better spells like Troll Shape since you're using Touch Attacks.

[nedz]

They shouldn't work together.

Clap of Thunder is a standard action which allows characters to make an attack roll.
Maneuvers are also standard actions which allow characters to make attack rolls.

Neither allows a character to use another standard action (so a maneuver can't be nested in a Clap of Thunder, and Clap of Thunder can't be nested in a maneuver).

This is correct.
CoT is a Standard Action which contains an attack.
Manoeuvres are Standard Actions which contain an attack.
You cannot fit a standard action into an attack, the relationship is the other way around.

Compare Spring Attack with Flyby Attack.
SA allows you to split your move around an attack
FA allows you to split your (flying) move around a standard action
You could not SA either CoT nor a Manoeuvre, but you can use either with FA.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It doesn't work the same way Order of the Bow Initiate doesn't work with Greater Manyshot. Multiple types of attacks which require you to spend a standard action to use them cannot be combined with a single standard action.

On the whole, "standard acton = attack" line of thinking, plus the wording of Invisibility which classifies all direct hostile actions as attacks, a guy I used to play with tried to insist that a high BAB allowed him to cast multiple standard-action spells in a single round. Nobody agreed with him, and he eventually dropped it.