[3.5/PF] How to make an unarmored character?

[Wonton]

Long and the short of it is, I want to make a Gunslinger that doesn't wear armor - I think we can agree that it just doesn't make much sense, thematically. But mechanically, that +2 from the leather (or better armors, even) and +1 from the buckler is too good to pass up. Are there any feats or anything that can make up for the lost AC? My GM is pretty lenient and will probably allow anything from any official PF or 3.5 rule book.

[Psyren]

Bracers of armor would give you armor without armor, but why not wear leather? A duster or trenchcoat would fit a gunslinger just fine thematically; the rest of your AC can come from enhancements, Dex/dodge, deflection bonuses (e.g. a ring of protection) and other sources like Insight.

[Wonton]

Well, when I think of leather armor, I usually imagine something thicker than a trench coat... Something boiled and inflexible that looks like a breastplate. I want my character to just wear regular comfortable clothes.

I guess I could just take a level of monk and get my Wis to AC, though I'd prefer to achieve a similar result without multiclassing - probably through a feat.

[deuxhero]

Keep in mind Leather (and masterwork studded leather) have 0 ACP (At which point even an untrained wearer has no penalty for wearing it unless they are a caster or monk). I don't think they fall under "inflexible" or not comfortable (and as someone who owns a longcoat, it actually does imped your movement, mostly in the arms). You can just say it is a duster instead of a breastplate, the rules allow for abstraction.

Pathfinder actually has a reinforced coat armor. It's medium and has worse AC than a chain shirt (in exchange it is concealed and quick to don), but it still goes into the "no penalties if Mithral" category. Doesn't help with the early levels though.

[Psyren]

Well, when I think of leather armor, I usually imagine something thicker than a trench coat... Something boiled and inflexible that looks like a breastplate. I want my character to just wear regular comfortable clothes.

If you don't want to fluff it that way, then... don't fluff it that way.

I guess I'm not seeing the issue. I can't think of a reason why a leather longcoat shouldn't convey the same benefits as leather armor. It's Rule of Cool - like Neo or Blade somersaulting around in their own leather getups. And as Deuxhero pointed out, the mechanics match the fluff via 0 ACP.

Leather + Dex should cover you for lower levels, until you can afford to layer on some enhancements and pick up even less restrictive AC gear.

[grarrrg]

Long and the short of it is, I want to make a Gunslinger that doesn't wear armor - I think we can agree that it just doesn't make much sense, thematically. But mechanically, that +2 from the leather (or better armors, even) and +1 from the buckler is too good to pass up. Are there any feats or anything that can make up for the lost AC? My GM is pretty lenient and will probably allow anything from any official PF or 3.5 rule book.

Just wear armor.
Unless you plan on walking around naked, it would be hard NOT to justify one of the following.

Padded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/padded) Little more than heavy, quilted cloth, this armor provides only the most basic protection.
http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/paddedjack_sinric/images/padded_jack_front.jpg

Quilted Cloth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/quilted-cloth) This enhanced form of padded armor has internal layers specifically designed to trap arrows, bolts, darts, etc...
http://www.stahlgilde.net/wp-content/gallery/gambeson-long-arm-buckles-on-the-side-lap-100/gambeson-langarmelig-verschlusse-seitlich-lap-100.jpg


Leather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/leather) Leather armor is made up of pieces of hard boiled leather carefully sewn together.
http://vindictusdb.com/screens/sets/sharpshooter_leather_armor_set/sharpshooter_leather_armor_set_492370034.jpg

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, leather wasn't 'studded'... there was a historic brigandine that LOOKED like it had studs in it, though...

[Tim Proctor]

UA pg 109 has a Class Armor Bonus variant that may work for you.

[Yukitsu]

To be honest, there are plenty of characters to which I simply didn't feel armour was necessary. Mostly scouts and rangers where I focused on a bow or similar ranged weapon, or of course as a caster. If you're good at keeping your distance, just going without is fairly viable.

[Gavinfoxx]

Monk's Belt?

[Urpriest]

AFAIK, Gunslingers use Dex, so eventually you'll have a Dex high enough that you won't want to use armor anyway. How low level are we aiming for here?

[_flint_]

Unless you're particularly fond of actually slinging guns with your gunslinger, vow of poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds would more than account for the lost AC

[Gavinfoxx]

Unless you're particularly fond of actually slinging guns with your gunslinger, vow of poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds would more than account for the lost AC

Ohhh the sarcasm smarts so much!

[Psyren]

As the starting gun is worth gp (4d10 to be precise) and is not on the allowed list, VoP Gunslingers would immediately fall :smalltongue:

[Tokuhara]

I've thought about this long and hard and found a few ideas:

A monk dip (1-2 levels at most) gives you Wisdom to AC, but lowers your base attack bonus. However, you're making "touch attacks," so the odds of you missing, especially with a high dexterity (you realy only need an 18-20), are much lower, considering the Deadeye deed. However, you lose out on True Grit, which is like getting two free Signature Deed feats. That being said, still a strong option.

Alternatively, monks belt does work, but it costs gold. Personally, Monk's saves and class features > spending WBL willy nilly.

another option is to grab a level in Cleric. As strange as that actually sounds, 1 level grants you two domains and opens up the spell list, making UMD moot. IIRC, Cleric gets Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor with one domain, so grab Travel as well and enjoy +10' movement. Then, use scrolls/wands/etc. to pre-combat buff yourself with Mage Armor and Go to fricken town.

So, if you go with my dipping options, you get:

Gunslinger 3/Monk 1/Cleric 1/Gunslinger 14. And this is without Archetypes. Pick archetypes that work for you, and now you are a reasonably powerful Unarmored 'Slinger.

[grarrrg]

A monk dip (1-2 levels at most) gives you Wisdom to AC, but lowers your base attack bonus. However, you're making "touch attacks," so the odds of you missing, especially with a high dexterity (you realy only need an 18-20), are much lower, considering the Deadeye deed. However, you lose out on True Grit, which is like getting two free Signature Deed feats. That being said, still a strong option.

If you do decide to go Monk, take the Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) archetype.
Granted, half of the features don't work with Guns, but the other half are more "Gun friendly".
A quick 2 level dip will get you Wis-to-AC, Unarmed Damage (cause Pistol Whip is pretty sad), and 2 feats. AND in the case you ever find yourself without a Gun, you are also fairly competent with a Bow.

[Wonton]

Keep in mind Leather (and masterwork studded leather) have 0 ACP (At which point even an untrained wearer has no penalty for wearing it unless they are a caster or monk). I don't think they fall under "inflexible" or not comfortable (and as someone who owns a longcoat, it actually does imped your movement, mostly in the arms). You can just say it is a duster instead of a breastplate, the rules allow for abstraction.

That's actually a very good point. If it is mechanically no more or less restricting than regular clothing, there is no reason one couldn't just "skin" it as regular (leather) clothing. I'll have to think about that, thanks for giving me another option.


AFAIK, Gunslingers use Dex, so eventually you'll have a Dex high enough that you won't want to use armor anyway. How low level are we aiming for here?

Currently level 3, doubt we'll go very high at all (probably be lucky to get to 10). Hence my mention of leather armor (and not a mithril chain shirt).


Monk's Belt?

Good idea, but we're low level and very poor. If I find myself with gold to spend, I'll definitely consider it.


To be honest, there are plenty of characters to which I simply didn't feel armour was necessary. Mostly scouts and rangers where I focused on a bow or similar ranged weapon, or of course as a caster. If you're good at keeping your distance, just going without is fairly viable.

I've thought about it. I can use Gunslinger's Dodge to help with ranged attacks (can even get up to +6 to AC if I have some cover to 5 foot step behind). Thing is, I need to be within 20ft for touch attacks, which still leaves the risk that someone will just charge at me with a sword.

[Wonton]

Honestly, dipping a level of monk doesn't seem like such a bad idea, especially if I can go Zen Archer and pick up Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot for the bonus feat. I'm not even sad about losing the BAB, the biggest downside for me would be having to wait longer for the cool Gunslinger class features (mainly Pistol Training and Dead Shot).

It's a little sad that Flurry of Blows and Perfect Strike will go unused - and I could probably convince my GM to let me use them with guns, but honestly that would feel a little cheesy. I already convinced him to allow me to fight with two pistols by using TWF (not allowed per the RAW reload rules), and this might be pushing it.

As an aside, did they fix save stacking in PF? Or does taking 1 level of monk still give you +2/+2/+2?

[grarrrg]

I already convinced him to allow me to fight with two pistols by using TWF (not allowed per the RAW reload rules), and this might be pushing it.

Can you afford 2sp for a pair of Weapon Cords?
I got ya covered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453) buddy (scroll to "Option 1B")

[Tokuhara]

always wondered: can you use prehensile hair/white haired witch to reload?

And don't forget: 1 dip in cleric opens the cleric spell list and 2 domains. I suggest Travel and 1 of your choice that fits your fluff

[Ravens_cry]

Can you afford 2sp for a pair of Weapon Cords?
I got ya covered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453) buddy (scroll to "Option 1B")
This works especially well if you can wrangle revolvers.
Drop free, reload free (with rapid reload), recover swift, drop free, reload free, recover move, and still getting a shot off, is quite good if you don't have to do it every turn.

[Wonton]

Can you afford 2sp for a pair of Weapon Cords?
I got ya covered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453) buddy (scroll to "Option 1B")

Yeah, I saw that. Great post. Thing is, I don't want to juggle/tie weapons to my wrist/grow a 3rd arm. I just want to use two pistols (later, two revolvers). You know, sometimes you make your character's story around the build, and sometimes you make the build around the story. This case is the latter of the two. And when I asked my DM if I could do it by taking both TWF and Rapid Reload, his response was "I'm going to allow it, just because that would be rad".


always wondered: can you use prehensile hair/white haired witch to reload?

And don't forget: 1 dip in cleric opens the cleric spell list and 2 domains. I suggest Travel and 1 of your choice that fits your fluff

Yeah, it's a good idea, but I just don't see this character as a spellcaster. Monk actually kinda fits the theme - I'm imagining a sort of "zen concentration in the heat of battle"/"I guide this bullet with my mind" type thing, but Cleric is pushing it.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, it's a good idea, but I just don't see this character as a spellcaster. Monk actually kinda fits the theme - I'm imagining a sort of "zen concentration in the heat of battle"/"I guide this bullet with my mind" type thing, but Cleric is pushing it.

I do not kill with my gun. I kill with my heart!

[Wonton]

I do not kill with my gun. I kill with my heart!

Correct. :smallamused: You have not forgotten the face of your father.

As an aside, I'm very excited to roleplay the hell out of this character. Re-reading all the books as we speak, the best line that I've found so far is "Control the things you can control, maggot. Let everything else take a flying **** at you, and if you must go down, go down with your guns blazing." Totally gonna steal that shamelessly for use at some point down the road.

[grarrrg]

I do not kill with my gun. I kill with my heart!

This gun is my gun.
There are many like it but this one is mine.
My gun, without me, is useless.
Without my gun, I am useless. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_Creed)

[Yukitsu]

Correct. :smallamused: You have not forgotten the face of your father.

As an aside, I'm very excited to roleplay the hell out of this character. Re-reading all the books as we speak, the best line that I've found so far is "Control the things you can control, maggot. Let everything else take a flying **** at you, and if you must go down, go down with your guns blazing." Totally gonna steal that shamelessly for use at some point down the road.

I once did Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry line with a flintlock pistol. Try and squeeze that in there somewhere, as it's a lot of fun. :smallbiggrin:

" I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire one shot or none?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .82 Fabian, the most powerful pistol in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

"I can see the bullet. :smalleek:"

[PrateTrain]

If you're willing to compromise (and this is relatively cheap in that department) you could splurge on a gunman's duster
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/duster-gunman-s)
It gives the same armor as a chain shirt, with bonuses for 'slingers.

Alternatively, if you're feeling risky enough, you could take a two feat combo in Improved Unarmed Strike and Snake style. A build I've been running through is utilizing it.
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snake-style-combat-style)
Provided you're not flat-footed, snake style lets you use your sense motive check in place of your AC, and this can be nice if you have a good sense motive check.

hope it helps.

[Gavinfoxx]

pssst. look at the date the last post in this thread was made...