Methods of Gaining Sneak Attack Without Having Sneak Attack

[mootoall]

I want to try a bit of class feature shenaniganery, and key to the scheme I'm cooking up is a method to gain at least two Sneak Attack dice without having any already. Does anyone know a method of doing this, besides Blackguard and Rogue? Ideally involving Swashbuckler entry.

Edit: Never mind, Assassin does it. Ignore this thread!

[Urpriest]

Lots of classes have sneak attack. Are you looking for a dip? A Feat? (Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance?)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Persistent Hunter's Eye?

That one race from that one sourcebook?

Sneak Attack Fighter (presumably combined with Feat Rogue, Swashbuckler, and Daring Outlaw)?

Assassin 3?

[VGLordR2]

One level in Generic Expert or Generic Warrior, and using the bonus feat to take the feat Sneak Attack, which gives +2d6 sneak attack damage. Relevant link. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Generic_Classes#Generic_Classes)

[mootoall]

Lots of classes have sneak attack. Are you looking for a dip? A Feat? (Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance?)

The thought was combining Feat Rogue with Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw to get near-full Sneak Attack and a bunch of bonus feats. But I overlooked Assassin, which doesn't have an SA requirement as I expected.

[mootoall]

Sneak Attack Fighter (presumably combined with Feat Rogue, Swashbuckler, and Daring Outlaw)?


I was going to go for this, but then realized that SA Fighter would make Feat Rogue redundant. Instead, it would be something like Feat Rogue 15/Swashbuckler 2/Assassin 3, for 15th level fighter bonus feats and 19th level rogue sneak attack.

[eggs]

Buy a casting of PAO for Marulurk before level 3 or 6, get Daring Outlaw, use ghost levels to maintain 10d6 SA on Swashbuckler 20, even after the PAO is dispelled?

[mootoall]

Buy a casting of PAO for Marulurk before level 3 or 6, get Daring Outlaw, use ghost levels to maintain 10d6 SA on Swashbuckler 20, even after the PAO is dispelled?

You can't have 10d6 Sneak Attack on Swashbuckler 20, since there are no Rogue levels to stack with. But otherwise, yes, that's sound.

[eggs]

You can't have 10d6 Sneak Attack on Swashbuckler 20, since there are no Rogue levels to stack with. But otherwise, yes, that's sound.
I haven't seen any convincing arguments that 0 levels Rogue are [Null] levels of Rogue.

It's clearly not intended, but 0 levels rogue + 20 levels swashbuckler = 20 effective rogue levels for SA with Daring Outlaw.

[mootoall]

I haven't seen any convincing arguments that 0 levels Rogue are [Null] levels of Rogue.

It's clearly not intended, but 0 levels rogue + 20 levels swashbuckler = 20 effective rogue levels for SA with Daring Outlaw.

Huh. Technically correct, I suppose.

[Tvtyrant]

Get Assassin's Stance from ToB through a feat? Gets you 2d6 SA with no class loses, but you can't get it till level 10 (or 5 levels of Swordsage).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Get Assassin's Stance from ToB through a feat? Gets you 2d6 SA with no class loses, but you can't get it till level 10 (or 5 levels of Swordsage).

And doesn't it take two feats, one for a maneuver which then allows you to take the one for a feat?

[mootoall]

And doesn't it take two feats, one for a maneuver which then allows you to take the one for a feat?

Fortunately, both feats are Fighter Bonus Feats :smalltongue:

Edit: Which reminds me, the point wasn't to get 20 levels of Swashbuckler, it was to get as many levels of Feat Rogue in as possible, to allow for maximum bonus feats and maximum sneak attack.

[Andorax]

Am I the only one who thinks applying feat rogue levels to DO is just plain dodgy?

[Daftendirekt]

Am I the only one who thinks applying feat rogue levels to DO is just plain dodgy?

Nope, I was thinking that as well. Feat rogue no longer has the sneak attack class feature, thus a feat that uses Swashbuckler levels to advance it won't. I would never allow it if I was running a game.

[ThiagoMartell]

Nope, I was thinking that as well. Feat rogue no longer has the sneak attack class feature, thus a feat that uses Swashbuckler levels to advance it won't. I would never allow it if I was running a game.

Yeah, any DM that allows that has some serious issues

[mootoall]

Am I the only one who thinks applying feat rogue levels to DO is just plain dodgy?

Dodgy? Maybe. RAW? Yes.


Nope, I was thinking that as well. Feat rogue no longer has the sneak attack class feature, thus a feat that uses Swashbuckler levels to advance it won't. I would never allow it if I was running a game.

Daring Outlaw just says that Rogue levels and Swashbuckler levels stack for the purposes of determining Sneak Attack. Therefore, Rogue 15/Swashbuckler 2, so long as it qualifies for Daring Outlaw, would have the Sneak Attack of a Rogue 17. You might houserule that Daring Outlaw requires that "2d6 Sneak Attack from the Rogue class," but that's not the RAW.

[Acathala]

The Assassination weapon property from the cityacape web enhancement gives a sneak attack as well some useful poison abilities. Umber Awl, the shadow hand leagacy weapon also gives a sneak attack but not sure when you get it. That's in tome of battle.

[VGLordR2]

Daring Outlaw just says that Rogue levels and Swashbuckler levels stack for the purposes of determining Sneak Attack. Therefore, Rogue 15/Swashbuckler 2, so long as it qualifies for Daring Outlaw, would have the Sneak Attack of a Rogue 17. You might houserule that Daring Outlaw requires that "2d6 Sneak Attack from the Rogue class," but that's not the RAW.

If you're stacking Swashbuckler and Feat Rogue, sure, they'll stack. But Feat Rogue doesn't progress Sneak Attack.

[mootoall]

If you're stacking Swashbuckler and Feat Rogue, sure, they'll stack. But Feat Rogue doesn't progress Sneak Attack.

Yeah, but you don't need it to. They stack, meaning 15 levels of Rogue + 2 levels of Swashbucker = Sneak Attack of a 17th level Rogue. Because of the poor wording of the feat, you don't simply advance your Rogue SA with Swashbuckler--they stack to determine the level of SA you get.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yeah, any DM that allows that has some serious issues

Eh, I've allowed it - the dice didn't shatter, the character sheets weren't torn from top to bottom, there was no earthquake, no eclipse, no ride of the Valkyries, nor a battle between a one-handed God of War and a giant Wolf, Odin's staff was not sundered, no Götterdämmerung occurred.

The relative power of a Daring Outlaw Feat Rogue isn't going to wreck most games. The fighter feat list isn't that good.

[mootoall]

Eh, I've allowed it - the dice didn't shatter, the character sheets weren't torn from top to bottom, there was no earthquake, no eclipse, no ride of the Valkyries, nor a battle between a one-handed God of War and a giant Wolf, Odin's staff was not sundered, no Götterdämmerung occurred.

The relative power of a Daring Outlaw Feat Rogue isn't going to wreck most games. The fighter feat list isn't that good.

Also true. Personally, I think the best thing to do with it is taking Martial Study/Stance a bunch of times. Or get your TWF chain complete without a loss of any extra resources.

[ThiagoMartell]

Eh, I've allowed it - the dice didn't shatter, the character sheets weren't torn from top to bottom, there was no earthquake, no eclipse, no ride of the Valkyries, nor a battle between a one-handed God of War and a giant Wolf, Odin's staff was not sundered, no Götterdämmerung occurred.

The relative power of a Daring Outlaw Feat Rogue isn't going to wreck most games. The fighter feat list isn't that good.
No one was talking about balance.
It's just that this combination means Feat Rogue (supposed to be fair trade) becomes better than normal Rogue in every way. It's just munchkinry.
Heck, even Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gives up something.
It's simply not supposed to work that way. Sure, you can argue it works by RAW. So does drown healing and I sure as hell ain't using that in my games.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

No one was talking about balance.
It's just that this combination means Feat Rogue (supposed to be fair trade) becomes better than normal Rogue in every way. It's just munchkinry.
Heck, even Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gives up something.
It's simply not supposed to work that way. Sure, you can argue it works by RAW. So does drown healing and I sure as hell ain't using that in my games.

On the contrary, it is an exploit, a bug in the rules. It isn't cheating. The player asked me about it, I considered it, and I said yes. No need to impugn anyone's character.

[Gavinfoxx]

From the Lists of Stuff thread!


PHB
Rogue 1, 3, 5, 7.../20


DMG
Arcane Trickster: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (full caster advancement)
Assassin: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (Death Attack at level 1, gain minor arcane casting)
Blackguard: 4, 7, 10/10 (gain divine casting at level 1, full BAB)


Psionic
Pionic Rogue: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19/20
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b


Book of Exalted Deeds
Slayer of Domiel: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (Death Touch at level 1, gain divine casting at level 1)
Sacred Strike, feat, against evil creatures roll d8 for damage instead of d6


Book of Vile Darkness
Cancer Mage: 1, 5, 9/10
Disciple of Baalzebub: 2, 5, 8/10



Complete Warrior (all full BAB)
Dark Hunter: 3/5 (Death Attack at level 5)
Darkwood Stalker: 3, 6, 9/10 (Death Attack at level 10)
Invisible Blade: 1, 3, 5/5 ("dagger" only, faint as free action 1/round)
Justiciar: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (nonlethal strike)
Ronin: 1, 4, 7, 10/10


Complete Divine
Black Flame Zealot: 3, 6, 9/10 (Death Attack at 1, advances divine half)
Temple Raider of Olidammara: 2, 5, 8/10 (gain divine spells at level 1)


Complete Arcane



Complete Adventurer
Ninja: 1, 3, 5, 7.../20 (Sudden Strike)
Spellthief: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17/20 (gains arcane casting at level 4)
Daggerspell Mage: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances arcane 9/10)
Daggerspell Shaper: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances divine 9/10)
Dread Pirate (dishonourable): 3, 7/10 (full BAB)
Ghost-Faced Killer: 2, 5, 8/10 (Sudden Strike, full BAB)
Nightsong Enforcer: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (full BAB)
Nightsong Infiltrator: 4, 8/10 (Teamwork Sneak Attack)
Shadowbane Inquisitor: 4, 7, 10/10 (full BAB)
Shadowbane Stalker: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances divine 8/10)
Shadowmind: 2, 5, 8/10 (advances manifesting class 7/10)
Spymaster: 3, 6/7
Streetfighter: 3/5


Complete Psionic
Lurk: 2, 7, 12, 17/20 (psionic sneak attack, only functions while psionically focused)
Ebon Saint: 3/5 (sneak attack or psionic sneak attack)


Complete Mage
Unseen Seer 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6 (either sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish; full arcane advancement)



Complete Scoundrel
Avenging Executioner: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, gain abilities to make opponent flatfooted)
Cloaked Dancer: 2, 4/5 (suprise strike, 3/5 arcane advancement)
Mountebank 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7, Complete Scoundrel
Psibond 3, 6, 9/10, ecl 8, Complete Scoundrel
Master of Masks 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6, only while wearing the Assassin Mask
spellwarp sniper 2, 4/5, ecl 8, (sudden raystrike, see text)


Complete Champion
Mythic Examplar (Dardallion): 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (early entry ecl 5, advances casting 4/10)


Deities and Demigods
Justiciar of Taiia: 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6 (gain minor divine spellcasting at level 1)


Draconomicon
Dragonstalker: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (gains 2d6 sneak attack each time, only effective against dragons, full BAB)


Dragon Magic:
Hand of the Winged Masters: 2, 5, 8/10, ecl ?? (sneak attack or sudden strike or skirmish)
Dragon Descendant 3 (subtle ancestor), ecl 8: gain 2d6, see text (also stacks for certain monk abilities)


Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells:
Hellbreaker 3, 6, 9/10 (can also steal spell-like or supernatural abilities)


Cityscape
Ebonmar Infiltrator: 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7 (gain minor Int based arcane casting)


Dungeonscape


Frostburn


Heroes of Battle
Dread Commando: 1, 3, 5/5 (Sudden Strike, full BAB)


Libris Mortis


Lords of Madness


Magic of Incarnum
Umbral Disciple: 2, 5, 8/10


Miniatures Handbook
Skullclan Hunter: 3, 6, 9/10 (can "sneak attack" undead at level 2, read "Divine Strike" wording carefully, not actually sneak attack... I think)
Tactical Soldier: read "Flanker" ability


Planar Handbook
Fatemaker: 3, 6, 9/10 (gains minor Cha based arcane casting)


Races of Destiny
Chameleon: see text
Menacing Brute: 3/5 (full BAB)
Scar Enforcer: 3,6,9/10 (advance half caster)


Races of the Dragon
Dragon Devotee 2, 4/5, ecl 7, (either sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish; advances sorcerer casting 2/5)


Races of Stone
Blade Bravo: 4, 8/10 (melee only, full BAB)
Stonedeath Assassin: 2, 4/5 (Stonedeath Strike at level 5)


Races of the Wild
Whisperknife: 2, 5, 8/10 (full BAB)


Sandstorm
Scorpion Heritor: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10
race: Marrulurk, small Monstrous Humanoid, 3 HD, +1 LA (ECL 4), 2d6 sneak attack


Stormwrack
Scarlet Corsair 2, 6, 10/10 (full BAB, faint as free action once per 2d4 or 1d4 rounds)


Tome of Battle:
Assassin's Stance, Shadow Hand Stance - gain 2d6 sneak attack


Tome of Magic:
Andromalius vestige - see text
Malphas vestige - see text (sudden strike)
Shadowblade 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (sudden strike, at level 3 gain ability to deny opponent their dex bonus)


Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Rogue 3: "Penetrating Strike" - exchange trapsense for the ability to do half you sneak attack damage against undead


Eberron Campaign Setting


Eberron: Five Nations
Dark Lantern: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10


Magic of Eberron
Vigilant Sentinal of Aerenal: 2, 4/5


Eberron: Secrets of Xen'drik
Scorpion Wraith: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, full BAB)


Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona
Fist of Dal Quor: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, also gain stunning attacks)


Eberron: Faiths of Eberron
Thief of Life: 2, 6, 10/10



Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0)
The Divine Seeker: 2, 4/5
Guild Thief: 1, 3, 5/5


FR: Champions of Ruin
Justice of Weald and Woe: 3, 7/10 (death attack at level 10, gain minor diving casting)
Night Mask Deathbringer: 4, 8/10
Shade Hunter: 4, 8/10 (gain minor arcane casting)


FR: Unapproachable East
Thayan Slaver: 4, 7, 10/10


FR: Lords of Darkness
Darkmask: 3/5


FR: Lost Empires of Faerun
Cultists of the Shattered Peak: 2, 4/5 (Death Attack at level 5, gain minor arcane casting)
Magelord: 1, 5, 9/10 (full arcane advancement)


FR: Races of Faerun
Warsling Sniper: 1, 3, 5/6, ecl 6, warsling only


FR: Player's Guide to Faerun
Shadow Thief of Amn: 1, 3, 5/5
Zhentarim Spy: 2, 4/5


FR: Serpent Kingdoms
Fang of Sseth: 1, 4, 7, 10/10


FR: Shining South
Crinti Shadow Marauder: 2, 4/5 (Sudden Strike, gains a "Shadow Pounce" at level 5)


FR: Silver Marches
Orc Scout: 3/5
Peerless Archer: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (ranged only)


FR: Underdark
Imaskari Vengeance Taker: 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (half arcane advancement)


FR: Drow of the Underdark
Dread Fang of Lloth: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (sudden strike, full BAB)
Eye of Lloth: 2, 5, 8/10 (half caster)

[ThiagoMartell]

On the contrary, it is an exploit, a bug in the rules. It isn't cheating. The player asked me about it, I considered it, and I said yes. No need to impugn anyone's character.

:smallsigh:
Which is exactly what I said. It's not intended to work. Exploiting a 'bug' in the system is the very definition of munchkinry to me. You're free to disagree, of course. I hope you don't mind when all your players keep a bucket of water nearby, just in case they need to heal someone.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

:smallsigh:
Which is exactly what I said. It's not intended to work. Exploiting a 'bug' in the system is the very definition of munchkinry to me. You're free to disagree, of course. I hope you don't mind when all your players keep a bucket of water nearby, just in case they need to heal someone.

"Munchkin" also carries pejorative connotations, especially of cheating, at least in some circles. You may not have intended any offense, but recognize that some offense may be taken at the use of the word.

And drown healing doesn't work - there's no way to stop drowning once you've started.

[mootoall]

From the Lists of Stuff thread!

Have I ever mentioned I love the List of Stuff? And also you, Gavinfoxx.

[elpollo]

RAW? Yes.

Is it? Looking at the feat it says "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for sneak attack". A feat rogue 15/swashbuckler 2 daring outlaw very clearly gives a sneak attack of +0d6/+1d6, which stack together for a grand total of +1d6. How are you reading "They stack" as "The rogue still progresses sneak attack, even though you've given it up" and counting it as RAW? The feat rogue is an alternate class feature, not an alternate class.

Not that this stops you from allowing it, of course, but I don't think it is RAW.

[mootoall]

Is it? Looking at the feat it says "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for sneak attack". A feat rogue 15/swashbuckler 2 daring outlaw very clearly gives a sneak attack of +0d6/+1d6, which stack together for a grand total of +1d6. How are you reading "They stack" as "The rogue still progresses sneak attack, even though you've given it up" and counting it as RAW? The feat rogue is an alternate class feature, not an alternate class.

Not that this stops you from allowing it, of course, but I don't think it is RAW.

Read further. It says something to the effect of "Therefore, a Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 7 would have the Sneak Attack of a 12th level Rogue."

[VGLordR2]

Read further. It says something to the effect of "Therefore, a Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 7 would have the Sneak Attack of a 12th level Rogue."

Which, in this case, is 0d6.

[mootoall]

Which, in this case, is 0d6.

... No, it wouldn't. It stacks Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for "Effective Rogue level" for determining Sneak Attack. Not "Effective Feat Rogue level."

[elpollo]

... No, it wouldn't. It stacks Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for "Effective Rogue level" for determining Sneak Attack. Not "Effective Feat Rogue level."

I now agree with VGLordR2 in that RAW you don't gain any sneak attack dice from Daring Outlaw whilst using the feat rogue ACF. It doesn't say Feat Rogue because Feat Rogue isn't a class - it's an ACF (and is also in a different book). The rogue 5/swashbuckler 7 counts as a rogue 12 for sneak attack purposes. Normally this would be +6d6, but with the feat rogue there is no sneak attack advancement, so this is nothing.

Your swashbuckler bonuses are fine, though.

[VGLordR2]

Daring Outlaw allows your Swashbuckler levels to progress the Sneak Attack that you get from your Rogue levels. You don't get Sneak Attack, therefore there is nothing to progress.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It doesn't say Feat Rogue because Feat Rogue isn't a class - it's an ACF (and is also in a different book). The rogue 5/swashbuckler 7 counts as a rogue 12 because the rogue 5 provides 5 rogue levels worth of sneak attack. With the feat rogue it doesn't. You could certainly argue that you don't gain any sneak attack dice with the feat whilst using the feat rogue ACF, though, since as a level 12 rogue you don't gain any sneak attack dice whilst using the ACF.

I don't see any language in the feat to indicate the feat cares whether or not you are a Rogue who gets Sneak Attack or a Rogue who doesn't. I see language saying that if you have the feat, and you have levels in Rogue and Swashbuckler, you get Sneak Attack as a Rogue of a level equal to your levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler together. It doesn't care where you got the Sneak Attack dice to qualify for the feat from, just that you have them.

Is it exploiting a loophole in the wording of the feat? Yes. Is that a problem? Maybe, for some games, but definitely not for all games. It doesn't need to be treated as the second coming of Pun-Pun. It doesn't even need to be treated as the second coming of Steve, the Human Evoker.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is it exploiting a loophole in the wording of the feat? Yes. Is that a problem? Maybe, for some games, but definitely not for all games. It doesn't need to be treated as the second coming of Pun-Pun. It doesn't even need to be treated as the second coming of Steve, the Human Evoker.

Frankly at this point I'd give less of a hoot about it in my game than I would about Bear Bearington, the BearBearian

[elpollo]

I don't see any language in the feat to indicate the feat cares whether or not you are a Rogue who gets Sneak Attack or a Rogue who doesn't.

I was editing my post to try and be clearer whilst you posted, which basically is my response to this. You gain the sneak attack of a 12th level rogue, but you have given all your sneak attack dice from the rogue class up, so this is 0. The ACF states that you lose all of your rogue sneak attack.



you get Sneak Attack as a Rogue of a level equal to your levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler together

Which, as VGLordR2 pointed out (and utterly swayed me in 6 words), is no sneak attack, as you've given up your rogue sneak attack in exchange for feats.



Is that a problem? Maybe, for some games, but definitely not for all games. It doesn't need to be treated as the second coming of Pun-Pun. It doesn't even need to be treated as the second coming of Steve, the Human Evoker.

I'm not arguing balance here, I'm just saying I don't believe it to be RAW. I'm not gonna take offence if people still grant sneak attack dice with this feat.



edit - thinking about it, I would argue that it probably does grant bonus feats.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Frankly at this point I'd give less of a hoot about it in my game than I would about Bear Bearington, the BearBearian

I've let a player use this very loophole, and as I said before, Ragnarok did not ensue. Now, Tuesday, Tuesday ensued. But nothing more than that. And Bear Bearington the BearBearian isn't related to Bjorn Bjornsson the Druid who's-wildshaped-into-a-bear-while-riding-a-bear-and-summoning-more-bears, is he?

Edit:


I was editing my post to try and be clearer whilst you posted, which basically is my response to this. You gain the sneak attack of a 12th level rogue, but you have given all your sneak attack dice from the rogue class up, so this is 0. The ACF states that you lose all of your rogue sneak attack.




Which, as VGLordR2 pointed out (and utterly swayed me in 6 words), is no sneak attack, as you've given up your rogue sneak attack in exchange for feats.




I'm not arguing balance here, I'm just saying I don't believe it to be RAW. I'm not gonna take offence if people still grant sneak attack dice with this feat.



[i]edit - thinking about it, I would argue that it probably does grant bonus feats.[i]

Ok, let's look at this slightly differently - if there was a Feat Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 13/Assassin 3 (ordered to meet the prereqs to Daring Outlaw as soon as possible), and they took Daring Outlaw, how would you rule it? Does the feat say anything about whether your Rogue levels must grant Sneak Attack for them to count for Daring Outlaw?

Taking it one step further, if you were a Swashbuckler 17/Assassin 3 (again, ordered to meet the prereqs for Daring Outlaw as soon as possible), would you rule that the feat is useless? They have 0 Rogue Sneak Attack die, after all.

The text of the feat just stacks your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels. It doesn't care that those Rogue levels wouldn't normally get Sneak Attack. It doesn't even care that you have Rogue levels at all. Any Rogue levels get added to any Swashbuckler levels, and the character receives Sneak Attack as a Rogue of that level.

[mootoall]

I was editing my post to try and be clearer whilst you posted, which basically is my response to this. You gain the sneak attack of a 12th level rogue, but you have given all your sneak attack dice from the rogue class up, so this is 0. The ACF states that you lose all of your rogue sneak attack.




Which, as VGLordR2 pointed out (and utterly swayed me in 6 words), is no sneak attack, as you've given up your rogue sneak attack in exchange for feats.


Again, I'll quote the feat: "as if she were an 11th-level rogue." If it said that you get the spellcasting of an 11th level sorcerer, then it would be that. But it says that you get the Sneak Attack of a Rogue with an effective level of your Rogue levels and your Swashbuckler levels. It DOES NOT say it advances anything, meaning that your previous Rogue Sneak Attack has no impact on your current Rogue Sneak Attack.

[elonin]

Just to point out the obvious the character does not qualify for daring outlaw. The mistake would be allowing the character to take the feat based on a temporary effect. Or if the duration was permanent they then qualify with +2d6 but now have the LA as if they were that race from the start.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Just to point out the obvious the character does not qualify for daring outlaw. The mistake would be allowing the character to take the feat based on a temporary effect. Or if the duration was permanent they then qualify with +2d6 but now have the LA as if they were that race from the start.

Pardon? To what, precisely, are you referring?

[mootoall]

Just to point out the obvious the character does not qualify for daring outlaw. The mistake would be allowing the character to take the feat based on a temporary effect. Or if the duration was permanent they then qualify with +2d6 but now have the LA as if they were that race from the start.

Ignoring the fact that you can gain a feat from a temporary effect, there are plenty of methods (read: just use Assassin) which get you Sneak Attack anyway.

[elpollo]

Again, I'll quote the feat: "as if she were an 11th-level rogue."

I feel you're ignoring the actual specifics of the feat in favour of an example given to clarify how it works, but it's just that: an example. It doesn't say that she gains the sneak attack capabilities of an 11th level rogue, merely that she deals an extra 6d6 sneak attack damage as she would were she an 11th level rogue (which she is not).

As a counter-quote: "Your rogue level and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage", "Gain:Bonus feats (as fighter), Lose: Sneak Attack". The feat doesn't mention that you gain sneak attack as a rogue equal to your combined rogue and swashbuckler level. You determine your sneak attack as if your rogue level was a number of levels higher equal to the number of swashbuckler levels that you have, and for a feat rogue you never gain any sneak attack dice.



Ok, let's look at this slightly differently - if there was a Feat Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 13/Assassin 3 (ordered to meet the prereqs to Daring Outlaw as soon as possible), and they took Daring Outlaw, how would you rule it? Does the feat say anything about whether your Rogue levels must grant Sneak Attack for them to count for Daring Outlaw?

It doesn't say that the rogue levels have to grant sneak attack for them to count, but we have to assume that it means that they count towards your rogue's sneak attack to prevent things like "My rogue 3/swashbuckler 2 advances one level of rogue sneak attack, one level of assassin, one level of sneak attack fighter...". You might qualify for the feat without having rogue sneak attack, but you don't get the benefit of increased sneak attack damage from it if your rogue levels aren't providing it. In your example the character would deal an additional 2d6 damage when sneak attacking, and count as a 17th level Swashbuckler for the purposes of providing the various Grace and Dodge bonuses (whoop-de-doo).



Taking it one step further, if you were a Swashbuckler 17/Assassin 3 (again, ordered to meet the prereqs for Daring Outlaw as soon as possible), would you rule that the feat is useless? They have 0 Rogue Sneak Attack die, after all.

I'd ask whether they wanted any future rogue levels to provide sneak attack dice or bonus feats (or any other option that might be out there) and work from there. I'm arguing my case because the feat rogue specifically calls out that you lose any sneak attack granted by the rogue class.



The text of the feat just stacks your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels. It doesn't care that those Rogue levels wouldn't normally get Sneak Attack. It doesn't even care that you have Rogue levels at all. Any Rogue levels get added to any Swashbuckler levels, and the character receives Sneak Attack as a Rogue of that level.

Nowhere does it say you gain any ability to sneak attack, merely that the two classes stack for determining what you get. Since your rogue levels provide none and your swashbuckler levels provide none you stack them to provide none.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It doesn't say that the rogue levels have to grant sneak attack for them to count, but we have to assume that it means that they count towards your rogue's sneak attack to prevent things like "My rogue 3/swashbuckler 2 advances one level of rogue sneak attack, one level of assassin, one level of sneak attack fighter...".

No, actually, we do not. That is the basis of the exploit. The feat does not care where your sneak attack comes from. It simply states: "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attack, as if she were an 11th-level rogue." Nowhere in that text does it say that this requires the sneak attack to come from Rogue.


You might qualify for the feat without having rogue sneak attack, but you don't get the benefit of increased sneak attack damage from it if your rogue levels aren't providing it. In your example the character would deal an additional 2d6 damage when sneak attacking, and count as a 17th level Swashbuckler for the purposes of providing the various Grace and Dodge bonuses (whoop-de-doo).

Where does it state that in the text of the feat?


I'd ask whether they wanted any future rogue levels to provide sneak attack dice or bonus feats (or any other option that might be out there) and work from there. I'm arguing my case because the feat rogue specifically calls out that you lose any sneak attack granted by the rogue class.

Why so? They meet the prereqs, why should they not then add their 17 levels of Swashbuckler to their 0 levels of Rogue? Shouldn't they have the Sneak Attack of a 17th-level Rogue/3rd-level Assassin? After all, 17+0=17, does it not?



Nowhere does it say you gain any ability to sneak attack, merely that the two classes stack for determining what you get. Since your rogue levels provide none and your swashbuckler levels provide none you stack them to provide none.

That isn't how the feat is worded. You already have the ability to Sneak Attack, if you have the feat, so it wouldn't add any ability that wasn't present. It would simply augment the ability, as the feat is intended to do. I don't see where this argument of "You don't get to count Swashbuckler levels/Rogue levels that don't normally get Sneak Attack for purposes of Daring Outlaw" is coming from.

[enderlord99]

This thread calls for Curmugeon.

Or maybe even Psyren.

[georgie_leech]

Suppose you qualified for this feat using Sneak Attack Fighter, which gains Sneak Attack (as Rogue), according to the SRD. Would Daring Outlaw progress that sneak attack progression?

[elpollo]

No, actually, we do not. That is the basis of the exploit. The feat does not care where your sneak attack comes from. It simply states: "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attack, as if she were an 11th-level rogue." Nowhere in that text does it say that this requires the sneak attack to come from Rogue.

So can I have an 11th level feat rogue progress my sneak attack damage by 1 level in 11 different classes with sneak attack to get +11d6 to my sneak attack? The feat doesn't say I can't, but I don't think people would take that to be RAW. The feat doesn't say that, but it clearly advances your rogue sneak attack, which as a feat rogue you have none of.



Where does it state that in the text of the feat?

It says they stack, but neither provides sneak attack, so whichever way you stack it it still adds up to 0.



Why so? They meet the prereqs, why should they not then add their 17 levels of Swashbuckler to their 0 levels of Rogue? Shouldn't they have the Sneak Attack of a 17th-level Rogue/3rd-level Assassin? After all, 17+0=17, does it not?

Perhaps I was unclear - I would ask if they want their rogue levels to be regular or with the ACF. If they choose regular I'd allow them the sneak attack capabilities of a 17th level rogue, but any future rogue levels would also have to be advancing sneak attack rather than any other option. I'd also probably ask why someone wanted to take Swashbuckler to 17 before taking Daring Outlaw.



That isn't how the feat is worded. You already have the ability to Sneak Attack, if you have the feat, so it wouldn't add any ability that wasn't present. It would simply augment the ability, as the feat is intended to do. I don't see where this argument of "You don't get to count Swashbuckler levels/Rogue levels that don't normally get Sneak Attack for purposes of Daring Outlaw" is coming from.

I'm not saying you don't count them, I'm just saying that they provide no sneak attack.

[mootoall]

It says they stack, but neither provides sneak attack, so whichever way you stack it it still adds up to 0.



See, here's where you're misreading. They stack to determine *effective Rogue level* for Sneak Attack. They don't stack to determine *the degree to which you are advancing your Rogue Sneak Attack.*

[ThiagoMartell]

See, here's where you're misreading. They stack to determine *effective Rogue level* for Sneak Attack. They don't stack to determine *the degree to which you are advancing your Rogue Sneak Attack.*

Yeah, I'm convinced, it does not work by RAW.

[Curmudgeon]

This thread calls for Curmugeon.
The arguments have already been made, so I'll just try to tie things together with the relevant rules.

From Unearthed Arcana, page 58 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue):
OTHER CLASS VARIANTS
These variants simply swap one or more of that class’s features for one or more class features of another class.

Rogue
The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully.
Gain: Bonus feats (as fighter).
Lose: Sneak attack.

Daring Outlaw
...
Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attack, as if she were an 11th-level rogue.
stack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_stack&alpha=S) = Combine for a cumulative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cumulative?s=t) effect. Stacking accumulates the levels for the referenced effect without altering any class feature. If you had chosen the Feat Rogue variant, you would have chosen to lose all sneak attack for the class. Your levels would add together as specified by Daring Outlaw. However, the result for the example with this variant (7th-level Rogue/4th-level Swashbuckler) would deal the same sneak attack damage as if she were an 11th-level Rogue who had chosen to lose all sneak attack: 0d6. The Daring Outlaw example is correct to illustrate the feat applied to the standard Rogue and Swashbuckler classes. Examples (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/example?s=t) illustrate rule application, but do not create rules themselves. If you choose to lose Rogue sneak attack, it stays lost when you take a feat unless that feat explicitly states otherwise. Daring Outlaw does not do that.

So that exploit doesn't pass the RAW muster. However, Daring Outlaw with 0 Rogue levels will give you the sneak attack of a standard Rogue of your Swashbuckler levels. The feat doesn't have conditional language such as this example (from Ascetic Rogue):
If you have levels in rogue and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your unarmed strike damage.

[Jarveiyan]

Actually just as an aside 0levels = NO LEVELS, so if you have no levels of rogue you can't add in any levels of rogue for this or any feature that counts levels of rogue. I wouldn't allow this to work w/o SA coming from rogue, however all you really need are - rogue levels and SA(you take either of these out of the equation, you get no extra SA dice).

[mootoall]

The arguments have already been made, so I'll just try to tie things together with the relevant rules.

From Unearthed Arcana, page 58 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue):

stack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_stack&alpha=S) = Combine for a cumulative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cumulative?s=t) effect. Stacking accumulates the levels for the referenced effect without altering any class feature. If you had chosen the Feat Rogue variant, you would have chosen to lose all sneak attack for the class. Your levels would add together as specified by Daring Outlaw. However, the result for the example with this variant (7th-level Rogue/4th-level Swashbuckler) would deal the same sneak attack damage as if she were an 11th-level Rogue who had chosen to lose all sneak attack: 0d6. The Daring Outlaw example is correct to illustrate the feat applied to the standard Rogue and Swashbuckler classes. Examples (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/example?s=t) illustrate rule application, but do not create rules themselves. If you choose to lose Rogue sneak attack, it stays lost when you take a feat unless that feat explicitly states otherwise. Daring Outlaw does not do that.

So that exploit doesn't pass the RAW muster. However, Daring Outlaw with 0 Rogue levels will give you the sneak attack of a standard Rogue of your Swashbuckler levels. The feat doesn't have conditional language such as this example (from Ascetic Rogue):

Well, I'm definitely not one to argue with you, Curmudgeon. As much as I'd still insist that the example is meant to clarify that Daring Outlaw simply makes you determine effective Rogue level for SA purposes, I've come to consider you a more reliable source than CustServ, the FAQs and the PHB, so ... yeah.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Read further. It says something to the effect of "Therefore, a Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 7 would have the Sneak Attack of a 12th level Rogue."

Exactly. A vanilla Rogue (which advances SA at every odd level). It specifies CONTINUING the Sneak Attack progression - if so, what progression is it progressing? There's more than a few classes that grant SA, and not all of them provide it at the same rate.

I'm going to have to join the majority here and say that this is definitely not RAI, and arguably not RAW either.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually just as an aside 0levels = NO LEVELS, so if you have no levels of rogue you can't add in any levels of rogue for this or any feature that counts levels of rogue. That's certainly the case for Ascetic Rogue: that feat provides no benefit unless you have levels in both the Rogue and Monk classes. But Daring Outlaw doesn't require levels in both Rogue or Swashbuckler classes; it works with 0 Rogue levels and lots of Swashbuckler, or 0 Swashbuckler levels and lots of Rogue. Sneak attack is a stronger class feature than grace and dodge bonus class features, though, which is why we're discussing the first possibility.

I wouldn't allow this to work w/o SA coming from rogue, however all you really need are - rogue levels and SA(you take either of these out of the equation, you get no extra SA dice).
That seems like a fairly reasonable house rule, but that's definitely what it is. The D&D authors show a shocking propensity to ignore existing content when creating new things, and Daring Outlaw and other multiclassing feats in Complete Scoundrel clearly weren't written by people who understood the limits built into Ascetic Rogue and other multiclassing feats in Complete Adventurer.