A new kitten life snuffed out withn hours of it's birth.

[Pika...]

So...


My roommates leave to do laundry at one of their parent's house (This usually takes hours), and leave the new mother of kittens alone in their room in her birthing box. The birthing box is made out of cardboard, and apparently a she tried getting in and a side broke. This crushed one of her three kittens.

Now I am here with the dead kitten. This is just sad. :(

[Dark Elf Bard]

Ahhh damn it. Now I'm crying.

[Pika...]

Ahhh damn it. Now I'm crying.

I am not sure if this is good, or even worse news. I just noticed it is barely breathing, and moved it's head from it's left arm very slightly. I fear it would have been better of dead from what I see of it's condition. :smallfrown:

[Dark Elf Bard]

Give it some water!!! CALL YOUR FRIEND!!!!


Crap. I'm gonna electrocute my keyboard if I keep reading this stuff.

[Whiffet]

Awww. Poor kitty. :smallfrown: It doesn't deserve that. Call a vet?

I'm a little confused as to what happened, though. The mom tried to get out, or was trying to get back in? Or did some other animal try to get in? We're talking about the roommates who keep bringing in animals without talking to you, right?

[Pika...]

They are on their way.

And now I know it is alive. It tried to move it's body.

[Pika...]

Awww. Poor kitty. :smallfrown: It doesn't deserve that. Call a vet?

I'm a little confused as to what happened, though. The mom tried to get out, or was trying to get back in? Or did some other animal try to get in? We're talking about the roommates who keep bringing in animals without talking to you, right?

I believe she was either trying to get in (my guess, as the wate would have been on it more), or out when a side of the box caved.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Oh thank Fluttershy-Moradin-Cthulhu-Arceus.

It's alive!

[Pika...]

Oh thank Fluttershy-Moradin-Cthulhu-Arceus.

It's alive!

I am afraid it will not make it like this. Even hwne they rush it to a vet (they better!).

[The Glyphstone]

These people you're rooming with don't deserve to be the owners of so much as a goldfish, by the way it sounds they treat their animals.

[Whiffet]

What is the birthing box like, anyway? Besides being made of cardboard. Maybe later you can somehow convince the mother to move to a sturdier one. You probably don't want to risk the rest of the kittens by leaving them in the current box.

[Skeppio]

:smalleek: Oh gods, get the poor thing to a vet ASAP...

And agreeing with The Glyphstone. From the sounds of it, your roommates shouldn't be trusted to take care of so much as a pet rock. :smallannoyed::smallfrown:

[Pika...]

What is the birthing box like, anyway? Besides being made of cardboard. Maybe later you can somehow convince the mother to move to a sturdier one. You probably don't want to risk the rest of the kittens by leaving them in the current box.

By phone they couple instructed me to empty out a plastic container they had and do just that. The mother quickly understood.

[Ravens_cry]

My hopes and prayers go with you both.:smallfrown:

[Creed]

I really hope this turns out to be super uplifted, a real "huzzah, it lived!" moment. I'm pullin' for ya', little kitten.:smallfrown:

[turkishproverb]

Poor kitten. We're all pulling for it.

[Mystic Muse]

And these are the people who want to breed animals? :smalleek:

[Lycan 01]

Ah jeez man. :smallfrown: At least there's still some hope for the poor thing. If its still alive, there's hope yet! :smalleek:

[Tragic_Comedian]

Poor thing. :smallfrown:

I don't want to sound callous, but you probably shouldn't get your hopes up too much. I just don't want you to be disappointed.

[Traab]

And these are the people who want to breed animals? :smalleek:

That strikes me as a bit unfair imo. Its not like one of them stepped on the kitten, there was an accident caused by the momma cat. In hindsight it could have been avoided, but be honest, if you wanted to setup a birthing box for your cat, would you really have thought before this, "Hmm, better not use cardboard, the momma might crush its babies by mistake!" Im not saying the wanna be breeders are good guys, but this doesnt strike me as any obvious neglect or laziness on the surface.

[Mystic Muse]

That strikes me as a bit unfair imo. Its not like one of them stepped on the kitten, there was an accident caused by the momma cat. In hindsight it could have been avoided, but be honest, if you wanted to setup a birthing box for your cat, would you really have thought before this, "Hmm, better not use cardboard, the momma might crush its babies by mistake!" Im not saying the wanna be breeders are good guys, but this doesnt strike me as any obvious neglect or laziness on the surface.

It's more the being gone for several hours thing, which does strike me as neglectful. I honestly don't know much about it, but I would think that being absent for several hours is a bad idea.

Now, maybe I'm wrong about the circumstances since Pika doesn't mention whether they asked him to take care of them while they were gone or not, but I feel like there was at the very least some sort of miscommunication which ended up leading to this. Also, like I said, I don't know much about breeding pets, but if I wanted to breed them I'd do some research, and I'm sure something like this would be mentioned somewhere.

My sympathies though. I really hope the kitty survives.:smallfrown:

[Triscuitable]

Nothing breaks my heart more than a kitten being hurt. I really hope it turns out all right.

[SaintRidley]

It may be best in this situation to leave things to the mother cat. Circle of life, recycling, all that jazz.

Sounds cruel, but these things happen.

[CapnRedBeard]

Are these the same people who were going to breed dogs in your apartment?

So dogs...cats...any bird breeding going on? Semi-domesticated squirrels?

Just how many animals do you guys live with...in a apartment?

[Pika...]

It''s gone. :(

[Pika...]

Are these the same people who were going to breed dogs in your apartment?

So dogs...cats...any bird breeding going on? Semi-domesticated squirrels?

Just how many animals do you guys live with...in a apartment?

Three dogs, the mother cat, her brother/baby-daddy, a fish, and a new stray cat. :/

[Tragic_Comedian]

It may be best in this situation to leave things to the mother cat. Circle of life, recycling, all that jazz.

Sounds cruel, but these things happen.
It's true. Chances are, in a litter of three, one would have died regardless. If it survived, it probably would have been in a great deal of pain while it recovered. At least it didn't suffer for long.

[Marnath]

This is going to seem callous, but if it was hurt so badly the best thing you could have done for it is not to arrange a vet trip. The most humane reaction is a swift blow to the back of the skull. You should never let a badly wounded animal suffer, although I understand that many people don't have that in them.

[TechnoScrabble]

And now I am teh sad.

Seriously, though, there are enough strays and adoptables being put down every day, why would they want to breed? And then put it in a cardboard box, which every vet will warn you is a BAD IDEA.

[CapnRedBeard]

Three dogs, the mother cat, her brother/baby-daddy, a fish, and a new stray cat. :/

Well the fish is probably pretty happy.

The dogs too...I mean really I've never seen a depressed dog. You could pack a good 5 or 6 more of them in there...and they'd work it out.

Cats are probably miserable...but...yeah i got nothing.

VEry sad to hear about the kitten dying...

[IonDragon]

This is going to seem callous, but if it was hurt so badly the best thing you could have done for it is not to arrange a vet trip. The most humane reaction is a swift blow to the back of the skull. You should never let a badly wounded animal suffer, although I understand that many people don't have that in them.

I once had to put an injured bird down with a hatchet while camping. We were over an hour from the vet. It was hard, but it was the right thing to do.

[Bhu]

Hugs for Pika

[Lycunadari]

*so many hugs* :smallfrown:

[Mono Vertigo]

Your roommates have issues, or are just very good at causing them. :smallmad:
Whatever, it's no news, and it's not the subject of this thread. So please accept my hugs. I'm so sorry it happened to those poor kittens and the mother has to deal with it. :smallfrown:
*hugs*

[Killer Angel]

Your roommates have issues, or are just very good at causing them. :smallmad:


I like to think that Pika's got talent of finding odd people.

[SiuiS]

It''s gone. :(

T~T


This is going to seem callous, but if it was hurt so badly the best thing you could have done for it is not to arrange a vet trip. The most humane reaction is a swift blow to the back of the skull. You should never let a badly wounded animal suffer, although I understand that many people don't have that in them.

Much harder to do than say.

[Brother Oni]

Much harder to do than say.

Depends on what sort of person you are.

As someone said, chances are, one would have died regardless of the accident (it's why cats have so many litters and number of kittens per litter) so all this grief seems somewhat... excessive(?) to me.

[Tyndmyr]

Three dogs, the mother cat, her brother/baby-daddy, a fish, and a new stray cat. :/

Yeah, I'm going to go with "call animal control". These folks simply should not have pets, as they evidently do not understand factors such as how many pets are reasonable for a given space. Also, at least some of the pets are probably not licensed, and there may be legal limits on how many pets a given space is allowed. Your roomies are very likely in violation of at least some laws, and animal control folks should be the ones to tell them this. Better to let them deal with it than you.

[Irish Musician]

People make me want to beat them until I get tired and worn out. :smallfurious::smallmad:

They think pets are accessories that they can just put down when they are tired of them and then pick them back up when they want to use them again. This is NOT how you are supposed to treat animals. They are living beings too with emotions and personalities just like ours and whether they were to admit it or not (ya know, if they could talk and all) they need our love as people, just like we need their companionship as pets.

Just think, if you left a pregnant mother in a room with a cardboard box to have her baby in while you went out, what do you think would happen and how many people do you think would get pissed off about that? A lot. People need to use their brains which, I am very sad to say, seems to be happening less and less now a-days. :smallannoyed: ARGH.

Sigh,:smallsigh: thank you for letting me rant on my soapbox for a little bit. Something as needlessly tragic as this could have been avoided and it just makes me angry. I very much agree with our wonderful moderator in saying that these people shouldn't keep a Pet Rock as a pet......not to mention a actual living, breathing thing. Little kitten, may you rest in peace.:smallfrown:

[THAC0]

Just think, if you left a pregnant mother in a room with a cardboard box to have her baby in while you went out, what do you think would happen and how many people do you think would get pissed off about that? A lot. People need to use their brains which, I am very sad to say, seems to be happening less and less now a-days. :smallannoyed: ARGH.



Sorry, but cats are not people, particularly in the birthing department. Cats have been having kittens on their own, with no help, forever. In fact, knowing the cats I know, most of them would prefer not to have anyone around when giving birth.

I also don't see how this has any effect on what happened. Even if they had been home, this certainly seems to be an accident.

[Tyndmyr]

Cats are not people, of course. However, I still hate to see something suffer, and minimizing suffering in pets is certainly desirable.

Not using a cardboard box because of this exact thing is a known issue, and if these folks want to be breeders, they need to approach this in a proper fashion, ie, not using cardboard boxes in an overcrowded apartment.

They're more like pet hoarders than responsible pet owners, and that's not ok.

[Cikomyr]

Someone masturbated, and God had to have His due.

Why will people learn?

[2xMachina]

Maybe they didn't know what to do. While I suppose they probably should learn or something, as a non-pet owner, I have no clue cats even need a birthing box.

Now we know. Weigh your cat and check the material properties of the birthing box to make sure it can stand the weight!

[Weezer]

Pika, when are you going to post a thread that doesn't depress me? :smallfrown:

*hugs* What an awful thing to go through.

[Tyndmyr]

Maybe they didn't know what to do. While I suppose they probably should learn or something, as a non-pet owner, I have no clue cats even need a birthing box.

Now we know. Weigh your cat and check the material properties of the birthing box to make sure it can stand the weight!

Well, if you're going to be breeding animals, learning about them beforehand is just responsible behavior. Non-pet owners don't really need to learn about such things, but if you ever do get a pet, make an effort to learn what your pet needs first.

[Togath]

if it helps any, I too have been through a kitten dying, but, again, if it helps any, it's probably easier to lose one when it's still a newborn then when it's older(mine ended up dying around 6-8 weeks old if I remember right).
if it helps any as well; at least it wasn't a gory death from the sound of it, it could have been lot worse, and deaths by crushing can turn out grisly(at least if the thing doing the crushing is heavy, like a book shelf).
Still, I do agree that you should get some organization involved, these people sound like bad pet owners.
I found one way to help ease through a pet's death is to transfer your energy spent of being sad to something else(in my case, I focused on making a giant pyramid shaped dungeon in minecraft when one of my cat's kittens died)

[Hiro Protagonest]

To all you saying that these people shouldn't be breeding animals... didn't Pika say in the other thread that they're just dishonest crooks and are probably going to lose the apartment in the next month? I assume that means that the cops learned about it.

[The Glyphstone]

To all you saying that these people shouldn't be breeding animals... didn't Pika say in the other thread that they're just dishonest crooks and are probably going to lose the apartment in the next month? I assume that means that the cops learned about it.

I assumed that was because they were skipping rent or something, unrelated to the animals.

[Tyndmyr]

I assumed that was because they were skipping rent or something, unrelated to the animals.

Likewise.

I would also call about the animals, and make sure they're sorted out. If these folks are being evicted, they may do something stupid, like "releasing them into the wild". For those unfamiliar with pets, this is a terrible idea, that results in them either dying miserably, or throwing the local ecology out of wack. Domesticated animals often do very poorly on release to the wild.

[lsfreak]

Yeah, I'm going to go with "call animal control". These folks simply should not have pets, as they evidently do not understand factors such as how many pets are reasonable for a given space. Also, at least some of the pets are probably not licensed, and there may be legal limits on how many pets a given space is allowed. Your roomies are very likely in violation of at least some laws, and animal control folks should be the ones to tell them this. Better to let them deal with it than you.

This was my immediate thought as well. Two large, adult dogs, a puppy, three adult cats, and two kittens in one apartment? Unless you've got a huge apartment, I'd get a hold of someone and figure out if that's even legal.

EDIT: For example, in my city, to have more than 3 pets (dogs or cats), no matter what size your place is, you have to register with the city to make sure it's humane. EDIT2: Nevermind, it's that you can't have more than 3 pets in the city without being a business that takes care of animals.

[Ravens_cry]

Good bye young life, I am sorry it had to end this way.
You barely got a chance to know it's joys, it's hiding in boxes, it's pouncing on string, the chasing of tails, the warmth of sun beams and glowing boxes.
Good bye young life, good bye.

[Amridell]

Rest in peace, and may the Cat God welcome you into his bed, and relinquish his milk to you, young cat.

[Tragic_Comedian]

Honestly I think you guys might be being to hard on these people. It's not like we know them personally or anything. Pika isn't living with them anymore anyhow; he's out of his bad situation.

[Cuthalion]

I'm dejected now. :smallfrown:

[turkishproverb]

Poor Kitty *hugs Pika*

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly I think you guys might be being to hard on these people. It's not like we know them personally or anything. Pika isn't living with them anymore anyhow; he's out of his bad situation.

He's still living with them until August 1st. And he didn't say what year... :P

[Togath]

This was my immediate thought as well. Two large, adult dogs, a puppy, three adult cats, and two kittens in one apartment? Unless you've got a huge apartment, I'd get a hold of someone and figure out if that's even legal.

EDIT: For example, in my city, to have more than 3 pets (dogs or cats), no matter what size your place is, you have to register with the city to make sure it's humane. EDIT2: Nevermind, it's that you can't have more than 3 pets in the city without being a business that takes care of animals.

just what country do you live in?, at least around where I live there aren't those sorts of moronic limits, by the defination of what you describe three goldfish is the same as three bears to them, or 3 teacup dogs are the same as three great danes.
I'm sorry for draging the thread off topic, but it offends me greatly that there are (poorly written)rules regarding that sort of thing for some city or country somewhere

[WarKitty]

just what country do you live in?, at least around where I live there aren't those sorts of moronic limits, by the defination of what you describe three goldfish is the same as three bears to them, or 3 teacup dogs are the same as three great danes.
I'm sorry for draging the thread off topic, but it offends me greatly that there are (poorly written)rules regarding that sort of thing for some city or country somewhere

Usually small animals are excepted, at least fish are.

[Studoku]

Aww, poor thing. *hugs*

*hugs* to the other two kittens too.

[CapnRedBeard]

just what country do you live in?, at least around where I live there aren't those sorts of moronic limits, by the defination of what you describe three goldfish is the same as three bears to them, or 3 teacup dogs are the same as three great danes.
I'm sorry for draging the thread off topic, but it offends me greatly that there are (poorly written)rules regarding that sort of thing for some city or country somewhere

I'd guess that he lives in America. Those sound like rules we'd have.

But also...yeah I'm sure that fish don't "count."

[THAC0]

just what country do you live in?, at least around where I live there aren't those sorts of moronic limits, by the defination of what you describe three goldfish is the same as three bears to them, or 3 teacup dogs are the same as three great danes.
I'm sorry for draging the thread off topic, but it offends me greatly that there are (poorly written)rules regarding that sort of thing for some city or country somewhere

Sorta off topic, but on the subject of poorly written rules regarding animals...

There's currently some stuff in the works regarding breeders, which, if passed, will subject home breeders to inspection if they maintain more than X number of unfixed females - because then they'll be like a petstore or something.

The catch? It just says breedable females, not of the same species. I could have four female goldfish (how does one tell that anyway?) and be subject to inspection? :smallmad: Or three goldfish and one dog. Or or or!

[lsfreak]

just what country do you live in?, at least around where I live there aren't those sorts of moronic limits, by the defination of what you describe three goldfish is the same as three bears to them, or 3 teacup dogs are the same as three great danes.
I'm sorry for draging the thread off topic, but it offends me greatly that there are (poorly written)rules regarding that sort of thing for some city or country somewhere

I did say it specified cats or dogs, not frogs or fish. I live it Iowa. Part of it might be that I'm not knowledgeable about animal stuff. Local city law (and I do live in the city) seems to be you can't have more than 3 cats or dogs without being registered as a kennel, which seems to be defined (can't didn't find a legal definition where I looked) as a registered business taking care of animals; you can't have a private home with 4 or 5 or 6 cats/dogs in the city.

[Lycan 01]

My mom found a kitten that had been hit by a car one time. Poor thing was pretty messed up, so she rushed it to a vet. There wasn't anything they could do, but my mom at least hoped they could euthanize it and end its suffering.

They wouldn't take the kitten unless my mom paid for the euthanasia. My mom's sitting there with a screaming bloody cat that she found on the side of the road, and they won't do anything unless she forks over the money out of her own pocket - money she didn't have. :smallsigh:

A trio of guys in the waiting room offered to take it outside and do the job for free. My mom gave them the kitten, and they did what they had to do. Honestly, I'm kinda surprised the vets didn't try to stop them for being "inhumane" or something... :smallconfused:


On the one hand, I can understand them not wanting to do procedures without somebody to cover the cost. Otherwise, the vets would lose lots of money on people claiming their pets were "strays" or something. But on the other hand... letting a creature suffer like that over money just seems... wrong. :smallsigh:


There is a BRIGHT SIDE to the story, though. On the way back home, my mom was waved down by the kids who found the wounded kitten. Turns out, they found another - its sibling. The poor thing was infested with fleas and badly malnourished...

We took it in, nursed it back to health, and kept it for several months before finally giving it to a better home. :smallsmile:

[Synovia]

Sorry, but cats are not people, particularly in the birthing department. Cats have been having kittens on their own, with no help, forever. In fact, knowing the cats I know, most of them would prefer not to have anyone around when giving birth.

I also don't see how this has any effect on what happened. Even if they had been home, this certainly seems to be an accident.

Agree.

The idea that a cat can't have kittens on its own is absurd. The idea that the owners have to sit and watch the cat every minute of the day is absurd.

There's a reason cats have short gestation periods, large litters, and are sexually mature at ~6 months. Mortality is high. The average stray lives less than a year.


This was my immediate thought as well. Two large, adult dogs, a puppy, three adult cats, and two kittens in one apartment? Unless you've got a huge apartment, I'd get a hold of someone and figure out if that's even legal.

And you call the local animal control, they show up, take the animals, and put them in a shelter. In most states, they get put down 7 days later. In some states, its 48 hours. Who is that helping? Unless the animals are being abused (and it doesn't sound like they are), you're just making the situation worse.

There's way more unwanted animals than shelter space at this point. As long as they're taking care of the animals, which I haven't heard any reason in this thread to believe they're not, taking a bunch in is a good thing.

Breeding, not so much. You could shut down every commercial breeder in the country, and we'd still have too many dogs and cats (because of the strays in rural areas reproducing)


They wouldn't take the kitten unless my mom paid for the euthanasia. My mom's sitting there with a screaming bloody cat that she found on the side of the road, and they won't do anything unless she forks over the money out of her own pocket - money she didn't have. :smallsigh:
...
On the one hand, I can understand them not wanting to do procedures without somebody to cover the cost. Otherwise, the vets would lose lots of money on people claiming their pets were "strays" or something. But on the other hand... letting a creature suffer like that over money just seems... wrong. :smallsigh:

I'm surprised the Vet even considered doing it for cash. Legally they're not supposed to touch the animal unless you're the owner (or you're willing to state that you are the owner). They can get themselves in a world of legal trouble if they put an animal down and somebody shows up saying its theirs.

That, and people turn in "strays" at vet clinics and shelters all the time. Often these strays still have tags, or ID chips registered to the same address as the people turning them in. People will do anything to make someone else pay for them.

[Asta Kask]

Agree.

The idea that a cat can't have kittens on its own is absurd. The idea that the owners have to sit and watch the cat every minute of the day is absurd.

There's a reason cats have short gestation periods, large litters, and are sexually mature at ~6 months. Mortality is high. The average stray lives less than a year.

This goes for those cats that have no special pedigree other than "someone I met while howling that I was desperately horny". There are purebreeds that can have difficulty giving birth.

[IonDragon]

This goes for those cats that have no special pedigree other than "someone I met while howling that I was desperately horny". There are purebreeds that can have difficulty giving birth.

I wrote a big, long post then when proof reading it I realized it wasn't even remotely on topic so I deleted it. But, I spent so much time writing I felt I should post something so I'm posting this saying I couldn't keep on topic. Sorry.

[Synovia]

This goes for those cats that have no special pedigree other than "someone I met while howling that I was desperately horny". There are purebreeds that can have difficulty giving birth.

It goes for 99% of cats, and I'm of the opinion that if an animal is so deformed that it can no longer give birth properly, we probably shouldn't be trying to continue that genetic line.

Anyways, it stinks that the kitten died, but I don't think all the gnashing of teeth here is necessary.

[Tyndmyr]

And you call the local animal control, they show up, take the animals, and put them in a shelter. In most states, they get put down 7 days later. In some states, its 48 hours. Who is that helping? Unless the animals are being abused (and it doesn't sound like they are), you're just making the situation worse.

It is remarkably common to have the animals put into a no-kill shelter. In addition, if it's for non-compliance with laws, generally the owners have a chance to get in compliance(find places for them, register them, etc) and get them back.

If the animals are, in fact, in too bad of a condition to be reasonably saved, they may have to be put down. This is unfortunate, but a necessary thing when animal maltreatment has gone on too long. Letting it go on longer than necessary does the animals no favors, and does not improve it's outlook.


There's way more unwanted animals than shelter space at this point. As long as they're taking care of the animals, which I haven't heard any reason in this thread to believe they're not, taking a bunch in is a good thing.

They are in an apartment, stockpiling animals, including several large breed dogs, without even bothering with precautions like asking the roommate first. Also, they're engaging in breeding.

I have no particular reason to believe they are responsible pet owners(and indeed, if they are, there is little danger of them being taken by animal control).

[Synovia]

It is remarkably common to have the animals put into a no-kill shelter.

As someone who has spent significant time volunteering for a no-kill rescue organization, and as someone who has fostered many rescue animals for shelters and rescue organizations, I'm going to disagree.

There's an order of magnitude more kill shelters than no-kill shelters, and in most of the states I've lived in, its very difficult to find a no-kill shelter that isn't full. Animals are abandoned much more often than they're adopted, and if there's no way to free up space, you run out of it.


If the animals are, in fact, in too bad of a condition to be reasonably saved, they may have to be put down. This is unfortunate, but a necessary thing when animal maltreatment has gone on too long. Letting it go on longer than necessary does the animals no favors, and does not improve it's outlook.

There's no evidence this is happening. There's no evidence of any maltreatment.



They are in an apartment, stockpiling animals, including several large breed dogs, without even bothering with precautions like asking the roommate first. Also, they're engaging in breeding.

I have no particular reason to believe they are responsible pet owners(and indeed, if they are, there is little danger of them being taken by animal control).
Again, not asking the roomate is a serious jerk move.

Having several large breed dogs in an apartment is not. Many large breeds are low activity animals. My dog is a 125lb cart-pulling breed, and he probably needs less space than a 15lb terrier does. He spends his day sleeping, chewing on things while laying down, and chewing on things while sitting down. I could probably have 4 of these dogs in my 1100 sqft apartment without there being any sort of neglect.

[IonDragon]

Having several large breed dogs in an apartment is not. Many large breeds are low activity animals. My dog is a 125lb cart-pulling breed, and he probably needs less space than a 15lb terrier does. He spends his day sleeping, chewing on things while laying down, and chewing on things while sitting down. I could probably have 4 of these dogs in my 1100 sqft apartment without there being any sort of neglect.

Except for the "large" breeds are huskies, a high energy medium working breed.

Unless Pika... is mistaken and they are in fact Malamutes, in which case they are large breeds that require hardly any space.

[Synovia]

Except for the "large" breeds are huskies, a high energy medium working breed.

Unless Pika... is mistaken and they are in fact Malamutes, in which case they are large breeds that require hardly any space.

Huskies aren't large breed dogs. They are pretty active though. That being said, yeah, I don't really trust Pika to ID the dogs, when they've already been described as crosses.

I think Pika's roomates sound like Jerks, and they're not too bright, but I don't see any reason to suspect abuse or maltreatment.

[userpay]

Actually I'm curious, do the roommates realize that they're probably not going to have the apartment much longer (it was mentioned somewhere)? If they know have they even started looking? If they know and they haven't started looking (assuming eviction or what have you is going to occur soon) then perhaps they should be reported on that alone, much less not having the proper environment to begin with. If they don't have the right environment now what makes one think they'll get it when they find a new place?

This is coming from someone who has been working at a pet store and volunteering at a wildlife/exotic clinic. I can't even begin to count how many people I've had to talk out of getting a particular animal (usually fish granted but other critters to) or once they learn about what they actually need/can do they chose something more within their bounds. You should see the people who buy the red ear sliders from the flea markets that come in to get supplies thinking that all it needs is a dinky little cage. Man their eyes get big.

On the subject of shelters even some of the no kill shelters can be pretty lazy though. The pet store I work at hosts cats from a local shelter (not the one that I volunteer at) and we manage to adopt out the majority of the cats that come in, even the older ones. Yet repeatedly we've been having issues lately where they say they're going to bring more cats/supplies over and yet they don't. The only reason why we haven't switched shelters yet is because the adoptions for the other shelters are twice as much.

On the subject of breeding. While I see the need to ensure that the animal population is controlled at the same time I think most people are a little to gung ho on it. At least for me I hardly ever see people take into account what it's doing to the gene pool restricting it so much.

[Tyndmyr]

As someone who has spent significant time volunteering for a no-kill rescue organization, and as someone who has fostered many rescue animals for shelters and rescue organizations, I'm going to disagree.

There's an order of magnitude more kill shelters than no-kill shelters, and in most of the states I've lived in, its very difficult to find a no-kill shelter that isn't full. Animals are abandoned much more often than they're adopted, and if there's no way to free up space, you run out of it.

Per the Humane Society, we've reduced euthanization of pets by about two thirds since the seventies. Your ten to one ratio is pretty unfounded in fact.

As I stated, it does still happen, but it's much more confined to extreme cases, with a much greater focus on placing animals now, even those who have had permanent injury.


There's no evidence this is happening. There's no evidence of any maltreatment.

Overcrowding is an issue. This is what laws about maximum occupancy are designed to prevent.


Again, not asking the roomate is a serious jerk move.

Having several large breed dogs in an apartment is not. Many large breeds are low activity animals. My dog is a 125lb cart-pulling breed, and he probably needs less space than a 15lb terrier does. He spends his day sleeping, chewing on things while laying down, and chewing on things while sitting down. I could probably have 4 of these dogs in my 1100 sqft apartment without there being any sort of neglect.

These are husky mixes, dude. I know huskies. Hell, I had one a while back. They are not low activity animals. Putting several of those into an apartment is a terrible idea.

[IonDragon]

These are husky mixes, dude. I know huskies. Hell, I had one a while back. They are not low activity animals. Putting several of those into an apartment is a terrible idea.

Laboring under the assumption that these are in fact huskies, this is true and I fully agree. However, Synovia and I were simply pointing out that young north breeds look similar. Husky and malamute puppies are almost indistinguishable, and need very different care.

I live in a 3 bedroom house with back yard and I'm not certain that is enough space for a single husky. However two to three proper large breeds (mastiffs, swiss mountain dogs, Alsatians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Alsatian)) would be manageable considering their necessary level of activity is relatively low.

[lionbrain1]

poor kitten good thing it was quick:smallfrown:

[Helanna]

There's an order of magnitude more kill shelters than no-kill shelters, and in most of the states I've lived in, its very difficult to find a no-kill shelter that isn't full. Animals are abandoned much more often than they're adopted, and if there's no way to free up space, you run out of it.


Indeed. My family once picked up a stray male kitten that got hit by a car in front of our house. The kitten was totally fine after a few minutes of yowling, so we kept him.

A month or two later, we picked up a stray female cat we found, looking to be on the verge of starvation. She had some worrisome abscesses, so we took her to the vet. The vet tells us that her ear looks clipped, not torn, and is probably a mark of the local 'spay our strays' program.

It was not. Three kittens later, we had way too many cats. We called the local animal shelter once or twice a week for two months straight, and they were always full. The kittens were adorable though, and we eventually found homes for them - it helped that they were good mousers.

[Hiro Protagonest]

poor kitten good thing it was quick:smallfrown:

Er, it wasn't quick. Did you read any post beyond the first? Pika noticed that it was breathing.

Then it died.

[Synovia]

Per the Humane Society, we've reduced euthanization of pets by about two thirds since the seventies. Your ten to one ratio is pretty unfounded in fact.


Euthenasia rates, and the ratio of kill to no-kill shelters are completely unrelated. What you said is essentially the same as saying something like "I didn't eat burger king this week. So there are more pizza places than Burgerkings".

They're completely unrelated.

The vast majority of changes in pet Euthenasia are because of the increased drive to spay and neuter pets. They're because less pets are reproducing.



As I stated, it does still happen, but it's much more confined to extreme cases, with a much greater focus on placing animals now, even those who have had permanent injury.

No, its not. You're not even close to reality here.

From the American Humane Society:
•56 percent of dogs and 71 percent of cats that enter animal shelters are euthanized. More cats are euthanized than dogs because they are more likely to enter a shelter without any owner identification

MOST animals that end up in shelters are put down. MOST.





These are husky mixes, dude. I know huskies. Hell, I had one a while back. They are not low activity animals. Putting several of those into an apartment is a terrible idea.
No, Pika says THEY LOOK LIKE husky mixes, but Pika doesn't know the difference between huskies and malamutes. So we have no idea what they are.

[Asta Kask]

No, Pika says THEY LOOK LIKE husky mixes, but Pika doesn't know the difference between huskies and malamutes. So we have no idea what they are.

Are malamutes low-energy dogs?

[Synovia]

wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Malamute


The Alaskan Malamute is a generally large breed of domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) originally bred for use as a utilitarian dog and later an Alaskan sled dog. They are sometimes mistaken for a Siberian Husky due to color and markings, but in fact are quite different in many ways including size, structure and personality. As pets, once mature, Alaskan Malamutes have a very quiet, dignified temperament and are loyal to their owners.

Huskies, on the other hand:

The Siberian Husky has been described as a behavioral representative of the domestic dog's forebear, the wolf, exhibiting a wide range of its ancestors' behavior... They are affectionate with people, but independent. A fifteen-minute daily obedience training class will serve well for Siberian HuskiesSiberians need consistent training and do well with a positive reinforcement training program. ...Owners are advised to exercise caution when letting their Siberian Husky off the leash, as the dog could be miles away before looking around and realizing its owner is nowhere in sight. They are excellent "escape artists" as well, and have been known to climb chain-link fences and find other ways of escaping a confined area. They also get bored easily, so physical and mental stimulation on a daily basis is very important. Failure to give them the attention or proper exercise they need can result in unwanted behavior, such as excessive howling, marking, chewing on furniture, or crying....

... because of their intelligence, they can easily become bored and may stop listening to commands. ...Huskies tend to be very observant of the actions of people around them and have been known to mimic common household activities such as turning on lights with their paws and opening doors with their canines. Some undesirable behaviors they can exhibit include opening refrigerators (and eating the food inside), climbing fences or digging tunnels in the backyard to escape....


Huskies are terrible pets for most of the population. Malamutes are pretty good pets.

Most real largebreed dogs (125lb+) tend to be pretty slow moving, and actually make good apartment pets. Its the 40-75lb working dogs that make terrible apartment pets.

Keeping a 200lb St. Bernard in an aparment is probably better than keeping a 35lb Border Collie in one. Its an issue of energy levels and intelligence. Small, high energy dogs get bored and destructive. Big, low energy dogs sleep.

[Squark]

Ultimately, the most important thing for a pet owner to do is to know their pet. Huskies, Border Collies, and the like need large yards and regular walks. Thin legged dogs like Chihuahuas, miniature pinchers, and the like shouldn't be around small children who might accidentally hurt the dog (also, small dogs tend to be the nippier ones, because they seldom hurt people when they do so). Big dogs have health issues. And of course it's not just dogs; the only pet that doesn't require a lot of care is the pet rock.

Frankly, a responsible pet store ought to require people to fill out a quiz on the pet before letting them purchase the pet.

[Whip-poor-will]

As I stated, it does still happen, but it's much more confined to extreme cases, with a much greater focus on placing animals now, even those who have had permanent injury.


As I volunteer at an animal shelter twice a week, I gotta call BS here. We put down three dogs just yesterday. Two of which had only been there a few days and were perfectly healthy.

[Synovia]

Frankly, a responsible pet store ought to require people to fill out a quiz on the pet before letting them purchase the pet.

A pet store is a for profit business. Its not their responsibility to convince you not to buy.

Its your responsibility to not buy a pet if you can't take care of one.

I mean, c'mon, is it a car salesman's responsibility to make sure that you really need the S model before he tries to get you to buy it?

[Togath]

A pet store is a for profit business. Its not their responsibility to convince you not to buy.

Its your responsibility to not buy a pet if you can't take care of one.

I mean, c'mon, is it a car salesman's responsibility to make sure that you really need the S model before he tries to get you to buy it?

the difference is a car is a machine, and a pet is an animal, and an animal can feel fear if it has a brain(which things with spines generally do, though domestic turkeys dont really count, as they are basicly just blobs of flesh)

[Katana_Geldar]

Some pet shops refuse to sell over Christmas new year as they don't want pets to be gifts.

[Synovia]

the difference is a car is a machine, and a pet is an animal, and an animal can feel fear if it has a brain(which things with spines generally do, though domestic turkeys dont really count, as they are basicly just blobs of flesh)

And a car can kill people.

They're both saleable goods from a legal standpoint. There's no way a petstore can screen customers, because customers can and will lie. Its just a completely ridiculous idea to try to think that Pet Stores need to keep you from buying a pet.

People need to take personal responsibility here.

[userpay]

At my store we'll turn people away from pets if we're sure that they won't take care of them. Better to keep the animal for a little bit longer than have it returned either dead or untameable due to something the buyer did. Plus if we have a return we have to quarantine it for a certain amount of time to make sure its healthy which means its that much longer before its available to sell again, much less if its sick and needs medication. That's right we don't put sick animals down unless we really have to.

[TheLaughingMan]

A pet store is a for profit business. Its not their responsibility to convince you not to buy.

It's also a human being's job to, y'know, give a crap.

[Synovia]

It's also a human being's job to, y'know, give a crap.
A business is not a human being. Its a legal construct designed to create profit.

[Togath]

A business is not a human being. Its a legal construct designed to create profit.

errr...what?, how is your response logical?, A business behaving like how you describe gets shut down quick if anyone finds out about it, the sort of thing you talk about is pretty darn evil, and isn't generally tolerated, at least not in the U.S. and U.K.

[Tyndmyr]

Euthenasia rates, and the ratio of kill to no-kill shelters are completely unrelated. What you said is essentially the same as saying something like "I didn't eat burger king this week. So there are more pizza places than Burgerkings".

They're completely unrelated.

The vast majority of changes in pet Euthenasia are because of the increased drive to spay and neuter pets. They're because less pets are reproducing.

They're all part of the greater push against putting animals down. Yes, spaying/neutering pets is responsible. These folks are also not doing that. Again, not seeing any real signs of responsibility from these pet owners.

No, its not. You're not even close to reality here.


From the American Humane Society:
•56 percent of dogs and 71 percent of cats that enter animal shelters are euthanized. More cats are euthanized than dogs because they are more likely to enter a shelter without any owner identification

MOST animals that end up in shelters are put down. MOST.

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/pet_overpopulation/facts/overpopulation_estimates.html

Looks significantly lower to me. Note also that euthanization correlates heavily to strays dropped off without identification. The owners can get them back...they just need to comply with laws and such to do so. This is quite reasonable.

And if this is a serious worry for Pika, he can certainly inquire as to availability of no-kill shelters prior to reporting them. And it would all be a non-issue if they are in compliance with local laws(though I seriously doubt that).


A business is not a human being. Its a legal construct designed to create profit.

That is one reason for the existence of businesses. While a very common one, it is not the only reason, though.

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting businesses to avoid selling pets to bad owners, when they know about it. It's certain that they won't always know, but it's surely responsible to avoid it when they do.

[Synovia]

Looks significantly lower to me. Note also that euthanization correlates heavily to strays dropped off without identification. The owners can get them back...they just need to comply with laws and such to do so. This is quite reasonable.

Stop backpedaling. Your statement was that euthanasia is rare. Its not. Its the most common result of putting an animal in a shelter. Those are the facts.


errr...what?, how is your response logical?, A business behaving like how you describe gets shut down quick if anyone finds out about it, the sort of thing you talk about is pretty darn evil, and isn't generally tolerated, at least not in the U.S. and U.K.


Could you please explain what the hell you're talking about? I said businesses are profit motivated, and its not their responsibility, legally, or morally, to teach responsibility to their clients.

The pet store is not your parents.

[Tyndmyr]

Stop backpedaling. Your statement was that euthanasia is rare. Its not. Its the most common result of putting an animal in a shelter. Those are the facts.

I'm pointing out that it's an easily manageable issue. It's not the focal point here, the focal point is that Pika's roomies do not appear to be responsible pet owners, and there are options if that is indeed the case.


Could you please explain what the hell you're talking about? I said businesses are profit motivated, and its not their responsibility, legally, or morally, to teach responsibility to their clients.

The pet store is not your parents.

Basically any pet store I've ever been in has promoted responsible pet ownership. I've seen them ask about if prospective owners have the room for pets, suggest things needed to properly care for pets, and generally guide pet owners to being responsible pet owners.

I would argue that this is both morally desirable and sound business practice.

[Synovia]

I'm pointing out that it's an easily manageable issue. It's not the focal point here, the focal point is that Pika's roomies do not appear to be responsible pet owners, and there are options if that is indeed the case.

No, the issue is that people are suggesting that Pika call animal control "for the good of the animals," when the most common result of that is the animals being put down.

If there's no signs of abuse, and there have been none in this thread, then calling animal control will simply make things worse. There haven't even really been any signs that they're poor/irresponsable pet owners.

What there have been several signs of, is that they poor roomates. One can be an inconsiderate jerk, and still a good pet owner.


Basically any pet store I've ever been in has promoted responsible pet ownership. I've seen them ask about if prospective owners have the room for pets, suggest things needed to properly care for pets, and generally guide pet owners to being responsible pet owners.

I would argue that this is both morally desirable and sound business practice.

Of course it is. There's a huge difference between promoting responsible pet ownership, and the store being responsible for poor pet owners, which is what the original post I responded to was suggesting.

It is in a pet store's interest to educate, but it is not in a pet store's best interest, or their responsibility, to screen their customers.

What the post I initially responded to was suggesting was essentially the equivalent of a restaraunt saying "Hunny, you're a little chunky. You're getting the salad or you can leave"

[userpay]

Seems like everyone is ignoring what an actual worker at a pet store (Petsmart) is saying, requoted at bottom of post for convenience.

It is not profitable for us to sell an animal to an unprepared customer because more often that not its going to get returned. If its alive then we have to spend money to keep it in back and possibly on meds to make it healthy again before we can sell it again. If its dead then we can't even sell it. That's not even counting all the equipment that would be returned with the pet that is also unsellable because its been used.


At my store we'll turn people away from pets if we're sure that they won't take care of them. Better to keep the animal for a little bit longer than have it returned either dead or untameable due to something the buyer did. Plus if we have a return we have to quarantine it for a certain amount of time to make sure its healthy which means its that much longer before its available to sell again, much less if its sick and needs medication. That's right we don't put sick animals down unless we really have to.

[Synovia]

I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying that it only applies in a very small subset of situations, and its not something the petstore should be required to do, because its ultimately a waste of time.


If a guy comes in with his scarred up pitbull and says "I need a puppy for training Rex here" you shouldn't let him have a puppy.

But next week hes going to come back without Rex and say "Hey, I have a wonderful home and yard, and love to give. Can I please have a puppy" and you're going to give it to him. Or another employee is, or the store across town is.

In the case of him going to another store to get his puppy, you haven't saved a puppy. You haven't prevented any cruelty. You've just swapped which puppy gets abused.

Edit: Also, I've never seen a petstore with a return policy on cats/dogs, or one that is sufficiently long enough so that people would have time to neglect the animal to the point that it needs sufficient care.

[Tyndmyr]

No, the issue is that people are suggesting that Pika call animal control "for the good of the animals," when the most common result of that is the animals being put down.

If there's no signs of abuse, and there have been none in this thread, then calling animal control will simply make things worse. There haven't even really been any signs that they're poor/irresponsable pet owners.

What there have been several signs of, is that they poor roomates. One can be an inconsiderate jerk, and still a good pet owner.

I have seen no evidence that "good pet owner" is a reasonable description of these people, but much evidence to the contrary. Therefore, until the evidence changes, I will assume that they are not responsible pet owners.

And if they ARE responsible pet owners, there is absolutely no problem. Animal control doesn't just go around nabbing pets willy nilly. You only need to call 'em if laws are being broken. Incidentally, breaking the law is NOT part of being a responsible pet owner.

And really, it's not *just* about what's best for the pets(though for sufficiently poor treatment, sometimes even euthanasia is superior). It's about what's best for the roommate. It's about what's best for the larger society of animals(irresponsible breeding can be...all kinds of bad).

[userpay]

I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying that it only applies in a very small subset of situations, and its not something the petstore should be required to do, because its ultimately a waste of time.


If a guy comes in with his scarred up pitbull and says "I need a puppy for training Rex here" you shouldn't let him have a puppy.

But next week hes going to come back without Rex and say "Hey, I have a wonderful home and yard, and love to give. Can I please have a puppy" and you're going to give it to him. Or another employee is, or the store across town is.

In the case of him going to another store to get his puppy, you haven't saved a puppy. You haven't prevented any cruelty. You've just swapped which puppy gets abused.

Edit: Also, I've never seen a petstore with a return policy on cats/dogs, or one that is sufficiently long enough so that people would have time to neglect the animal to the point that it needs sufficient care.

PetSmart is one of, if not the, biggest pet retailer in the USA. Not exactly a minority. Granted not every PetSmart/employee might share our particular perspective but in the end its not profitable to us to sell to those that aren't going to take care of their animals. Yes people lie but we also keep records of our returned animals and we have some people that we won't sell animals to because of that. Really, at best, we're keeping the ignorant people from making mistakes. There's also something to be said that PetSmart has a 14 day return policy on animals whereas most of our competitors only have a fraction of that if at all.

We (or at least at my store) don't sell our own cats and dogs, the cats that we have are from a local shelter and thus subject to their return policy.

[Tyndmyr]

Most reputable shelters will also keep blacklists of people that, for whatever reason, are not to be given animals.

So, if Joe the Jerk decides he wants to punt live puppies every weekend, it's not like it's likely to take terribly long for people to figure out that he's a terrible person, and stop giving him puppies.

Sure, you might not know the first time, but the process is fairly reasonable.

[Synovia]

I have seen no evidence that "good pet owner" is a reasonable description of these people, but much evidence to the contrary. Therefore, until the evidence changes, I will assume that they are not responsible pet owners.

I made not assertment that they are good pet owners, so drop the strawman.


All we know is that they have a couple of dogs, and they didn't ask Pika about it. We can make the judgment that they're poor roomates, but we simply don't have the information to make judgments as pet owners.


And if they ARE responsible pet owners, there is absolutely no problem. Animal control doesn't just go around nabbing pets willy nilly. You only need to call 'em if laws are being broken. Incidentally, breaking the law is NOT part of being a responsible pet owner.

And really, it's not *just* about what's best for the pets(though for sufficiently poor treatment, sometimes even euthanasia is superior). It's about what's best for the roommate. It's about what's best for the larger society of animals(irresponsible breeding can be...all kinds of bad).

I just strongly disagree with this. If you have a problem with your roomate having dogs, you talk to your roomate, and if you can't work something out, you move. Calling animal control when there's no evidence of abuse is just passive aggressive bull.

And the argument that there's no problem is also absurd. If I call the cops and tell them that you're beating your wife, and they show up, handcuff everyone in the house, and then start trying to figure out what happened, are you really gonna feel like I didn't do anything wrong?

[Synovia]

Most reputable shelters will also keep blacklists of people that, for whatever reason, are not to be given animals.

So, if Joe the Jerk decides he wants to punt live puppies every weekend, it's not like it's likely to take terribly long for people to figure out that he's a terrible person, and stop giving him puppies.

Sure, you might not know the first time, but the process is fairly reasonable.

There's enough pet shops that you're not going to stop him. There are 7 Petsmarts, 5 Petcos, a dozen mom-and-pop shops, and countless animals on craigslist within 15 miles of me. Most cities are like this.

The blacklists make the owner feel better, but they don't actually accomplish anything. If you think someone is buying pets from you and abusing them, call the authorities.

[Tyndmyr]

I just strongly disagree with this. If you have a problem with your roomate having dogs, you talk to your roomate, and if you can't work something out, you move. Calling animal control when there's no evidence of abuse is just passive aggressive bull.

Pika talked to his roomies, who made no effort to talk to him first. It didn't work. Moving is not instant, and it sounds like they're not making it particularly easy on him. We're not skipping past dialog here. They are.

And there's nothing to call animal control over unless they're violating laws/safe standards. However, given the described situation, they most likely are. Given that the animals sort of are at the heart of this problem, it isn't just vengeful stuff. Removing some or all of the animals will probably make life actually easier for Pika. And, quite possibly, for some or all of the animals too, depending on situational details.


And the argument that there's no problem is also absurd. If I call the cops and tell them that you're beating your wife, and they show up, handcuff everyone in the house, and then start trying to figure out what happened, are you really gonna feel like I didn't do anything wrong?

What does that have to do with anything?

[Synovia]

However, given the described situation, they most likely are.

Ok, this is the heart of the issue. What exactly in the described situation makes you think the animals are being abused?



What does that have to do with anything?

Having the authorities show up, and shake things up, even if you're doing nothing wrong, is a traumatic situation. Calling the SPCA, or Animal Control, or whoever, is going to cause a huge scene, whether or not the roomates are doing anything wrong. These places, like the cops, take the accusations seriously, and they act with the assumption that you're guilty until they can figure out exactly what the situation is.

[Tyndmyr]

Ok, this is the heart of the issue. What exactly in the described situation makes you think the animals are being abused?

Flip back over the previous posts, in which I've outlined the reasons to believe that these are not responsible pet owners.

Highlights:
1. Inability to plan ahead realistically or communicate reasonably.
2. Lots of pets in a small apartment.
3. Casually breeding non-purebreds.
4. Use of what appears to be makeshift containers for breeding.

No one of these is inherently horrible, but all of these together paint a troublesome picture.


Having the authorities show up, and shake things up, even if you're doing nothing wrong, is a traumatic situation. Calling the SPCA, or Animal Control, or whoever, is going to cause a huge scene, whether or not the roomates are doing anything wrong. These places, like the cops, take the accusations seriously, and they act with the assumption that you're guilty until they can figure out exactly what the situation is.

If you'll look back my posts, you'll note that I suggested FIRST checking into local laws, and then calling if something is in fact wrong. This is usually as easy as a google search.

[Synovia]

Flip back over the previous posts, in which I've outlined the reasons to believe that these are not responsible pet owners.

Highlights:
1. Inability to plan ahead realistically or communicate reasonably.
2. Lots of pets in a small apartment.
3. Casually breeding non-purebreds.
4. Use of what appears to be makeshift containers for breeding.

No one of these is inherently horrible, but all of these together paint a troublesome picture.

1. I see no evidence of the inability to plan ahead, and being able to communicate reasonably has nothing to do with pet ownership.

2. I see no problem with lots of pets in a small apartment. Having lots of pets does not meant the pets are ill kept. I have a dog, 2 cats, fish, a rabbit, and have had, at times, as many as 3 dogs (several fosters), and several guinea pigs, a chameleon, etc. My fiance is in the veterinary field: pets happen.

3. I don't like it at all, and I think its dumb, but its not a sign of abuse. That being said, I think breeding mutts is a whole lot better than breeding purebreds. Too many purebreds have breed specific health problems.

4. Sh*t happens. They put kittens in a cardboard box because they didn't know any better. Now they do. People make mistakes. Even well meaning people.

Googling "Kittens cardboard box" gives me all sorts of pictures of happy litters of kittens in boxes. I see several articles on the first page saying why cardboard boxes are fine for kittens, and not a single one warning of danger.



If you'll look back my posts, you'll note that I suggested FIRST checking into local laws, and then calling if something is in fact wrong. This is usually as easy as a google search.

And yet, you insist that they should call, and everything will be ok if they haven't broken any laws. Everything will not be ok if they haven't broken any laws, thats the point here.

[Tyndmyr]

Inability to plan: Well, they're using temporary stuff for the birthing box and such. They probably did not plan it out in advance, and used whatever was at hand. They're at the stage in their life where they're relying on the parents for things like laundry. They are probably not ready to be running a breeding operation. The lack of communication also implies that they're not sitting down and planning things through in advance, or if they are, they are doing a remarkably poor job of it. Hell, the dogs are strays they're bringing home. This strikes me as a textbook case of the "It's so cute...I want it!" striking without a great deal of planning. Pika explicitly stated they have a habit of doing this with animals. Hell, they were apparently expecting the roommate to help take care of their animals without even asking them. That's pretty terrible planning.

2. We have a minimum of three people in an apartment here, with a coupla adult cats, a litter of kittens, three probably husky-mixes, which they ALSO plan to breed for puppies...doesn't that seem like a bit much? Hell, if they're having trouble taking care of their existing dogs, adding a litter of puppies is a nightmare waiting to happen.

3. Breeding. Professional breeders don't start with random strays, generally. They also don't just lump a bunch of dogs and cats into an apartment and start breeding both of them. As these animals grow, there will be absolutely no way in which these can all live in this apartment in anything like a sanitary fashion. The world is frankly pretty oversupplied with mutts, so finding homes is not likely to be easy. I'm not liking the possible outcomes here.

4. Yeah, mistakes happen. And cats do friggin' love boxes. But "mistakes happen" somewhat ceases to be an excuse when you've set up a bad situation to begin with. This just furthers the image that they are not at all prepared for the disaster they are building.



And yet, you insist that they should call, and everything will be ok if they haven't broken any laws. Everything will not be ok if they haven't broken any laws, thats the point here.

Making a call to animal control is not the same as a call to 9-11. You can just ask them a few questions, yknow. It's...pretty common. You don't start out demanding that all the pets be euthanized or whatever, just mention that your roomies have some pets, and you'd like to be sure that everything is taken care of properly, and ask them for relevant advise or laws on the subject.

[Synovia]

Making a call to animal control is not the same as a call to 9-11. You can just ask them a few questions, yknow. It's...pretty common. You don't start out demanding that all the pets be euthanized or whatever, just mention that your roomies have some pets, and you'd like to be sure that everything is taken care of properly, and ask them for relevant advise or laws on the subject.

Have you ever had someone call animal control about you?

I have. My parents had a couple of chickens in a suburban neighborhood. My dad was the head of the local 4H, and as part of the zoning laws, that meant he was exempt from the typical crap that goes with getting chickens (most suburban areas your neighbors need to sign off on it, because roosters are loud, even if you don't have roosters).

We didn't have any roosters. We had 4 hens. Anyways, we came home to 2 animal control vans, and an SPCA van out in front of the house. They'd cut the locks off the fence, and were in the back yard.

The guys were all out back checking out the huge chicken coop my dad had built. They thought it was awesome, and basically had no probem with anything.

The problem is, for the next couple of weeks we had to deal with all sorts of questions along the lines of "have you stopped abusing your pets yet?" My dad essentially had to leave the 4h because of it.

[Tyndmyr]

This sounds like less of a problem with the animal control folks and more of an issue with your neighbors.

[Whip-poor-will]

This sounds like less of a problem with the animal control folks and more of an issue with your neighbors.

I believe the point he's trying to make is that, unless it is obviously needed, alerting the authorities hurts the situation more than it helps.

[SaintRidley]

If there's no signs of abuse,


Going to stop you right there. That many animals in an apartment is not merely a sign of abuse, it is a form of abuse.

[IonDragon]

it is a form of abuse.

Going to stop you right there, based on what?

[Squark]

Overcrowding is, at the very least, considered highly negligent, and most apartments I know of couldn't support more than 2 dogs and a cat, and maybe a couple of small pets in a crate as well. My town is fairly lenient on the pet numbers thing, and allows 2 dogs and 2 cats to a household. Most other cities and towns have tighter restrictions on non-professionals. 3 of each, and litters of both, is almost certainly too many.

[IonDragon]

Overcrowding

But it has not been shown that they are overly crowded. It's been implied, but we don't even know how big the apartment is or even what breed the dogs are.

[SaintRidley]

But it has not been shown that they are overly crowded. It's been implied, but we don't even know how big the apartment is or even what breed the dogs are.

Unless Pika lives in the sort of apartment you see in shows like Friends and The Big Bang Theory, I'd say it's almost certain he doesn't live in an apartment large enough to support all the animals he lives with. Let alone support breeding and adding further animals, as his roommates appear to be attempting and sucking at.

[Synovia]

Unless Pika lives in the sort of apartment you see in shows like Friends and The Big Bang Theory, I'd say it's almost certain he doesn't live in an apartment large enough to support all the animals he lives with. Let alone support breeding and adding further animals, as his roommates appear to be attempting and sucking at.
Unless we know square footage, the breeds of dogs, etc, your comment is entirely baseless.

We just don't know at this point.


And Tyndyr - of course it was a problem with the neighbors, just like this is a problem with the roomates.

[Squark]

No, I'm saying it is almost certainly overcrowded, maybe not from what we know of the apartment and the dogs themselves, but according to the number of the dogs and typical laws surrounding the limit on how many large pets you can own. Most cities forbid more than 4 large pets (And commonly less than that), and they have 6. Obviously, Pika (if he's even reading this thread, and I suspect he isn't anymore) should check his local ordinances about this before doing anything. Or he could call animal control and just ask about the law, without necessarily saying anything more.

[Helanna]

No, I'm saying it is almost certainly overcrowded, maybe not from what we know of the apartment and the dogs themselves, but according to the number of the dogs and typical laws surrounding the limit on how many large pets you can own. Most cities forbid more than 4 large pets (And commonly less than that), and they have 6. Obviously, Pika (if he's even reading this thread, and I suspect he isn't anymore) should check his local ordinances about this before doing anything. Or he could call animal control and just ask about the law, without necessarily saying anything more.

Don't forget that animal control may or may not do anything. My sister called animal control on her friend, who breeds poodles. She often has 10-14 poodles in an incredibly tiny TRAILER. The dogs are completely untrained. They often don't let the dogs out to exercise or even use the bathroom, then yell at them for peeing in the house, which they do constantly. The female dogs are generally pregnant as soon as the last litter is born. In the past, puppies have been injured or even killed just because there are so many and no one's watching them.

Animal control said there's nothing they can do, for some ridiculous reason. Additionally, when a neighbor called the landlord to complain, they simply hid the puppies at a friend's house to make it look like they only had two or three. I think my sister is planning to call again the next time they have a litter, though, maybe get a surprise check done.