ultimate gestalt/tri gestalt

[Korivan]

So with the loss of another player due to moving, (we are down from 7 to 3, sometimes 4) we have looked into the gestalt stuff and even the concept of a three class gestalt if we are gonna have two man parties. With the hope of continuing handling challenge ratings equal or higher then our level we are tossing a few build ideas around for maximum survival and capability.
Here are a few ideas...
1) Wizard/Factotum/Barbarian(with metamagic reducers and bonuses to action economy, drop barbarian for cleric of mystra and get initiate of mystra)
2) Druid/Monk/Fighter (fighter is dropped for prestige)
3) Warforged Psion/Artificer/Rouge (not my idea so not sure what the plan was)
4) Fighter/Fighter/Fighter (no joke, this is considered beyond overpowered by one guy. Before criticizing, know the AEG books are used too so theres more fighter bonus feats for options...then criticize.)

Any other ideas? Looking at things in the tome of battle right now, we havn't had it for long, but it looks more then promising

[Randomguy]

Why would the warforged want to play as a type of makeup? :smalltongue:

The Wizard/factotum part is very good, but warblade, from tome of battle, would probably be better than barbarian, since all three of those classes have Int synergy. Even with barbarian, it's a nice combo, since you get great casting, great skill-monkeying and great melee all in one character.

The fighter/fighter/fighter part is pretty stupid. It isn't actually allowed, unless the DM ruled it was. At least make it fighter/fighter/feat rogue, so you still get the same amount of fighter bonus feats but also get the nice rogue class features. But there are a lot of fighter ACF's that you can take, such as Dungeoncrasher fighter, which would make things a bit better. Even with those, though, you're probably going to run out of relevant feats. Although he could take feats to become good at two things, like archery and melee.

[grarrrg]

Why would the warforged want to play as a type of makeup? :smalltongue:

No, the Warforged is merely Rusting.


Anywho...
Barbarian + Wizard is BAD idea, as you cannot cast while Raging.
Like Randomguy said, Warblade is a much better choice. Also, Swashbuckler can be good for INT to damage.


Druid/Monk/Fighter, I can see working. Druid is 'active' abilities, Monk provides 'passive' abilities, Fighter gives feats.
If adding Tome of Battle, then switch Monk out for Swordsage. Fighter 'could' be switched out as well, but I'd recommend keeping a Full Bab in that spot.

Fighter/Fighter/Fighter _if_ allowed is just plain BAD. Even with ACF's and whatnot. The d10HD is ok, as is the Full Bab, but out of 3 classes you'd still only have 2 Skill points and _one_ good save.
Heck, just switching it to Fighter/Fighter/Ranger is a MASSIVE improvement, and your friend would still have his (apparently) precious Bonus Feats.

If all he wants is feats then Fighter/Monk/Ranger (or 'feat rogue') would be the best. He'd have all good saves, good skill points, and, you know, actual class features.

[gorfnab]

When making gestalt or tristalt characters you usually want to focus on Single Ability Dependent builds (SAD) over Multiple Ability Dependent (MAD) builds. Also take into account action economy. While Cleric// Wizard// Sorcerer would have a seemingly endless supply of spells it is still restricted 1 spell per round unless you can find some decent swift action spells. For gestalt builds I recommend going with a Active side class and a Passive side class. Active classes are ones that use up actions such as spellcasters. Passive classes are ones with always on abilities that don't require actions such as Dragon Shaman, Rogue, Scout, and Binder. In a tristalt build I recommend an Active side, Passive side, and Support side. A support side is one that strengthens the build through lots of skills and useful abilities (Factotum or Rogue), HP and BAB (Barbarian), and some action use (Warblade). In example as seen below: Crusader (Support)// Dragon Shaman (Passive)// Bard/ Sublime Chord (Active).

Crusader// Dragon Shaman// Bard/ Sublime Chord - Cha SAD, party buffer, healer, and face

Warblade// Factotum // Wizard - Int SAD, jack-of-all-trades

Hexblade// Binder// Warlock - Cha SAD, debuffer

Psychic Warrior// OA Samurai // Swordsage - Mostly Wis SAD, wuxia style, wandering swordsman

Warblade// Factotum// Artificer - Int SAD, buffing blasting tank (self repairable if Warforged)

Barbarian// Scout// Totemist - Mostly Con SAD, tank

Incarnate// Paladin with Serenity feat// Cleric - Wis SAD, healer, buffer, tank

Bard/ Drigesinger// Paladin of Slaughter or Tyranny// Dread Necromancer - Mostly Cha SAD, undead minion horde, THRILLER

[Korivan]

My apoligy on not mentioning it earlier, we would be using the rule that you can swap out class features for feats. That's why i like the barbarian, gave me a full three good saves, great HD, full BAB, and a few things like rage, DR, and fast movement to get rid off for feats, but warblade does look good.

Thank you for suggestions, have some reading ahead of me now.

Yes, action economy definatly considered over number of spells. Only once did i make a character capable of sorc/wiz/cleric casting and that was a larger group and a underpowered concept character. (regular gestalt, 3 players. Went sorc/wizard dropping one arcane class during the 7 levels id get both with Ultimate Magus, taking cleric of mystra for Initiate of Mystra feat. Oh I could cast all day and almost always had the right spell, but it was a headache managing three spell lists.:smallfrown:

[Philistine]

Just another log on the pile of Fighter//Fighter//Fighter is a) RAW illegal - even with variant classes, much less ACFs, and b) would be exactly the same as non-gestalt Fighter if it were allowed, as it explicitly would not gain 3x Bonus Feats. That's not even slightly unclear.

Also, OP? Your group seems to rather overvalue Feats generally. What exactly would you be picking up in exchange for all those class features?

[Korivan]

for me, metamagic and metamagic reducers and font of inspiration. Basically get persist spell down to a +3 or 2 level adjustment, quicken to +1/+0 on some stuff i use alot. personally, i only want to get rid of rage (usless for caster unless rage mage), +10 movement (not that big of a deal since we don't use grid sheets and 10 feet per 6 seconds isnt that much a distance), and DR/- (only tops out at 4 for me since i go for three levels of cleric), and the sneak attack from factotum since a single d6 isn't all that hot and i dont plan to use it to prestige with things. So thats only four feats for me, and i got plans for them all.

As for the Fighter/fighter/fighter...ugh. Not gonna happen anyways, hopefully. And yes I'd give him 3x fighter feats. Cause...well just cause i guess. I don't even think there is that many fighter feats out there (33 total by 20), unless you get weapon focus/spec for a crap ton of weapons. At that point why? I mean seriously why??!!!? I've had dozens of discussions with this guy. Yes, in 2nd edition a fighter could possibly run the wizard down before he got his spell off. But spells were slower then, wizards squishier. But now he wants to duel his fighter/fighter/fighter against my wiz/fact/barb or warblade. And I don't know if i could softball it enough to make it convincing that he at least put up a fight and spare his feelings. Ugh, sorry, had to rant that there, gets frustrating to have to go over and over why the fighter isn't overpowered and why crit builds, unless built to crit things normally immune to crits, arn't gonna garantee victory. Seriously, grab heavy fortification by armor, spell, class feature and you could womp 3/4 of his builds.

The fighter for the druid/monk at least made sense, grab a few bonus feats to help combat and drop the fighter for a prestige class around level 6.

[ericgrau]

Eh depends on the group. I've had to be careful not to go overboard with feats a couple times before. With warblade ya he's probably screwed.

I'd probably do something like Full-BAB/arcane-caster/monk or similar. If I really wanted to be abusive I'd multiclass heavily for a +2 to all saves every level (+40 by level 20). That, feats and caster unarmored abilities is part of the reason behind monk. From there it's a decision whether I want to cast most of the time or if I want to self-buff and hit. I'd probably settle on hour/level buffs in the morning, casting early in the fight then stabbing the stragglers that remain. Wall off most of the foes, quicken chill touch on the final casting round, shoot for some kind of swift action teleport to use the round after that then flurry smash the straggler. The full BAB would probably include at least 4 fighter levels for melee weapon mastery and feats, or enough warblade to do the same. For simplicity and spammability of my major spells I might make the arcane caster sorcerer, but abrupt jaunt, feats and easier quicken make wizard tempting.

[grarrrg]

I don't even think there is that many fighter feats out there (33 total by 20), unless you get weapon focus/spec for a crap ton of weapons.

I have it on good authority that there are over 200, unique, feats that can be taken as Fighter Bonus feats.
So 33 would barely make a dent.

[Korivan]

I have it on good authority that there are over 200, unique, feats that can be taken as Fighter Bonus feats.
So 33 would barely make a dent.

And how many are worth a feat?

[grarrrg]

And how many are worth a feat?

Well, you know...


Nowhere NEAR 200.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1) Wizard/Factotum/Barbarian Warblade. Wizard goes into Incantatrix and then Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Warblade is just downright better than Barbarian, especially for an Int-based build. If you can't use ToB, Fighter would be better because you can go with an Improved Trip build and get your Int bonus to all the checks.

2) Druid/Monk/Fighter switch that one to Druid/Swordsage/Barbarian, and ditch Barbarian for Warshaper and Master of Many Forms. Monk is just downright bad, if you can't use ToB then get only one or two levels of Monk and then the rest in Ardent or Psychic Warrior with the feat Tashalatora.

3) Warforged Psion/Artificer/Rouge Rogue. This actually looks pretty good, you can Sneak Attack with powers like Crystal Shard and it's got a lot of Int synergy. I've never familiarized myself with Artificer, but I know Warforged get some special options for that. I'd probably go into Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) with it, alternating between Psion and Factotum depending on when it advances manifesting and keeping Artificer single-classed. Definitely try to work in eight Factotum levels, you can get five during Psychic Assassin and three more instead of more Rogue would only cost you 2d6 sneak attack.

4) Fighter/Fighter/Fighter.... Even with third party feats, I don't really see this being all that great. Maybe if he uses some sort of Half-Fiend-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) Half-Minotaur Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) and puts the +5 LA with War Hulk 10 and then Survivor 5, along with Fighter 20, and then probably Wolf-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) Barbarian 20 on the last leg. Between Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier plus Imperious Command, Knock-Back, Knock-Down, and the War Hulk sweeping attacks that hit multiple opponents, he'll absolutely love what his character is capable of, which will be far more than just a single-classed Fighter with three times as many feats can do.

[hoverfrog]

What do you need? Skills, combat ability, magical power, class abilities. A rogue will give you all the skill points that you need, there are stacks of fighter types that will give you the ability to hold your own in a fight, wizards, sorcerers and clerics, etc (and all those newfangled classes) will give you magical power galore. You just need to choose whether to sacrifice one of these key areas to double up on one of the others. A sorcerer\mage\rogue loses combat ability for extra magical might and a monk\fighter\ranger sacrifices magical power for a lot of class abilities and a great punch.

[ericgrau]

If you can't use 2 feats per level (on average, from 33+7) you aren't trying hard enough. I hate to even be forced to explain it because it comes up every single friggin' time someone tries to optimize melee/archers before level 20. I'm in a game that gives 1 per level and there are literally a dozen others I'd really like to have but had to cut.

If warblade is available that's the obvious option. Otherwise what I tend to do with core non-caster classes is dip for class features and go for feats from there. Because past level 1-2 class features, well, trap sense, and then a lot of waiting. But it's moot because the OP can just swap in feats anyway.

[Korivan]

Holy crap, you guys get 1 feat per level??!! I would love to get that. Warrior builds, caster/manifester/skill monkey builds, I always can use more.

[Randomguy]

But now he wants to duel his fighter/fighter/fighter against my wiz/fact/barb or warblade. And I don't know if i could softball it enough to make it convincing that he at least put up a fight and spare his feelings.

I think it might be best to just win. Finish him off in one round, and maybe you won't have to keep explaining why fighter/fighter/fighter is a bad choice.

[grarrrg]

I think it might be best to just win. Finish him off in one round, and maybe you won't have to keep explaining why fighter/fighter/fighter is a bad choice.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Apr02/Finnish_Hymns.jpg

Wait... that's not right...

http://static.themetapicture.com/media/finnish-hymn-540x531.jpg

No... that's not right either...One more try...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYnwV-sY1szFuy-ccbYi2UIlA5voXrcsueQO6PbGE9xad2krC0C6s8i9QBHA

Bah...Close enough...