Gauging Interest: Low Magic, Low Level Heroic Fantasy

[wayfare]

Hey All:

For a while now, I've been engaged in a pretty big rules re-write for 3.5. My ultimate goal is to put out two books: A campaign setting with classes crafted whole cloth using d20 rules, and a supplement that is focused on heroic low-level adventuring for existing 3.5 classes as well as a few homebrew fixes. The second project is closer to completion, and will be a testing ground some of the ideas for the ground-up revision.

So I want to ask you all, before I go jumping off a cliff with my first real publication, Are folks interested in Low Magic, Low Level heroic RPGs?

Ok, all of that is really loaded, so let me define my terms a bit:

Low Magic

1) Magic items are hard to find -- gear doesn't get above +2 enhancement and Minor magic gear is treated as major equipment.

2) Magic gear never duplicates spells. Scrolls, wands and staffs do not exist in their current form:

3) Scrolls hold rituals (think 4e rituals, save they take hours to perform), and are risky to use.

4) Wands and Staffs are just varieties of magic weapons -- think the magical equivalent of having a bow, inflicting damage based on your highest memorized spell.

5) Summoning is ritual only, and has severe consequences if you fail. No summoner can control more than 1 summoned creature at a time.


Low Level


1) The game caps out at level 10.
2) Enemies cap out at CR 14.
3) Players can earn templates that allow them to hit the CR cap.
4) Effects that raise caster/manifester/initiator level can't take you over the CR cap.



Heroic

1) The game utilizes a different set of rules to make classes more fun and flavorful to play.
a) Classes have smaller skill lists (typically 5-7) but all characters get 5 "Character Skills" that are always considered class skills.
b) Your AC is equal to (BAB + Highest of Dex/Wis/Con + 10). Basically, what makes you good at defense is your fighting ability.
c) Armor is DR. So is natural armor. They do not stack.
d) Armor is defined by weight not material. "Very Light Armor" could be a padded robe, a fine layer of treebark, or extremely delicate and almost weightless chain. "Superheavy Armor" could be a single shoulder pauldron and chain shirt supported by wide bands on rhino hide just as easily as it could be Gothic Full Plate or sewn Dragon Scale.
e) Shields are ornamental. They provide no in game bonus, aside from any granted by feats, spells, powers, maneuvers, or combat options.

2) Reputation is a game reward, that you can spend on Minions (0 level servants who do your bidding); Contacts (people who will help you out a bit/pass on information), Allies (people who will render services/go to great lengths to help you), Cohorts (people who will adventure under your banner [limit one at a time]), and Patrons (people who support you financially, will give you quests, and have pull on a geopolitical level).
Reputation is spent but never lost. Its more like an investment -- you can withdraw it and lose an contact/ally/whatever and then re invest it to gain new contacts/minions/etc.
a) As a consequence, Leadership is not a feat.

3) Your deeds can grant you titles that give you special abilities. Reputation is invested in titles, and you may only have 1 title active at a time (though you may have earned many).

For example, the title "Bane Warden" might allow you to Smite 3 times per day.

The title "Seasoned Veteran" Maximizes your HP and gives you +1 to all saves.

4) Combat classes are updated for ToB. That means the game assumes Warblade is substituted for Fighter; Swordsage is substituted for Monk; Crusader is substituted for Paladin. Variant Barbarian, Ranger, and Rogue classes are added to flesh out the combat classes.


Edit:
Classes Allowed

The classes allowed in the game would be the ToB classes, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Harbinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13294380&postcount=1), Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13043849&postcount=1), Binder, the Incarnum Classes, Scout, Duskblade, Expert (I am working on a PC version), Bard, Favored Soul, Warlock.


Would people be interested in playing in a setting that used these rules? Are there any problematic issues that could arise from this kind of setting/rules set?

[Baka Nikujaga]

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
While I cannot necessarily say whether or not I am interested, it would be nice for the inclusion of the rules as to what classes are available and how casting classes (and healing) are handled.

[wayfare]

Good idea, i'll add that now!

As for healing:

1) Fast healing spells exist, but cure spells do not.
2) Any kind of raising is a ritual
3) Ability drain is not a thing. All instances of ability drain become ability damage.
4) Negative levels are not a thing, instead replaced with thematically appropriate ability damage.

[Baka Nikujaga]

Classes Allowed

The classes allowed in the game would be the ToB classes, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Harbinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13294380&postcount=1), Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13043849&postcount=1), Binder, the Incarnum Classes, Scout, Duskblade, Expert (I am working on a PC version), Bard, Favored Soul, Warlock.


http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
Since I'm not particularly strong when it comes to potentials it may not be my place to say it, but, currently, aren't the magic-based classes going to be at an advantage over the mundanes (or semi-mundanes) with the magic item cap(s)? Though...it's been a while since I've read through the classes...so my memory might be off.

[Togo]

I'm happy with low magic and low level, but the changes you make under 'heroic' take the game in a way I don't want to see it go. Basing everything off level (BAB), magic wand/staff treated as flashy weapons, armour transparency, accoutrements as decoration, high stat transparency, and generally making options both equal and interchangeable are all negatives to my mind.

If that is the way you want to go, why stick with 3.Xe? I'd recommend using something like BESM, or even 4e, as systems that have many of these features embedded into them, and in which you can duplicate many of the ToB classes you're allowing in any case.

I'm not against this style of play, I just think that if you want to get there, 3.x is not the best place to start.

[vrigar]

I would love playing this kind of campaign. Nothing like mixing the rules up for some exciting surprises.
Just be mindful of game balance and prepare in advance to some nasty possibilities (the brave soul who chose to play a wizard becomes the party's mule).

[Wookie-ranger]

I like the Idea of a game like this. Sort of an E10 (like an extended E6) Give me a Lesser Aasimar Dread Necromancer and I would play. Perhaps with the potential to go Necropolitan, given the theme I would not go Spell-stitched; but if it is open :)

on "heroic" rules.
1a: Sounds fine, not sure what that would improve though.
1b: OK, does kind of make sense.
1c: Armor=DR if OK. I have played like that before. Works well with 1b. but why not stack it natural? It would make it more powerful, but also more logical. If your reasoning is to not be to OP that's a good mechanical argument.
1d: Logical.
1e: hmm, may be give an actual AC boost. Like +1 or +2 to the AC from 1b.

2: Not exactly sure how this would work. Sounds fine enough, but I might not be using it. Except for may be a reduction in buying things (onyx ?)

3: RP/storyline rewards. Have played with that before. It can work, IF done right.

4: That is almost a necessity given the core classes.


Questions:
1c: can the DR from armor be overcome by certain attacks. Logically speaking a chain shirt does little to block a hammer.

Low magic
4: So if I would have a wand/staff. Would that simply replicate the warlock class feature? how are charges handled? if it is "like a bow" can you just buy 'recharge crystals' as 'ammo'? can there be different wands for different elemental effects?

5: what about raising undead (animate dead/etc)? How many undead would i be able to control? may be limiting the HD or the HD controllable? Or may be all undead created are not under your control and you need to rebuke them first?


Hope That is some productive input.

[Starbuck_II]

Hey All:

For a while now, I've been engaged in a pretty big rules re-write for 3.5. My ultimate goal is to put out two books: A campaign setting with classes crafted whole cloth using d20 rules, and a supplement that is focused on heroic low-level adventuring for existing 3.5 classes as well as a few homebrew fixes. The second project is closer to completion, and will be a testing ground some of the ideas for the ground-up revision.

So I want to ask you all, before I go jumping off a cliff with my first real publication, Are folks interested in Low Magic, Low Level heroic RPGs?

Ok, all of that is really loaded, so let me define my terms a bit:

Low Magic

1) Magic items are hard to find -- gear doesn't get above +2 enhancement and Minor magic gear is treated as major equipment.

2) Magic gear never duplicates spells. Scrolls, wands and staffs do not exist in their current form:

3) Scrolls hold rituals (think 4e rituals, save they take hours to perform), and are risky to use.

4) Wands and Staffs are just varieties of magic weapons -- think the magical equivalent of having a bow, inflicting damage based on your highest memorized spell.

5) Summoning is ritual only, and has severe consequences if you fail. No summoner can control more than 1 summoned creature at a time.



Issues:
5) how do summoning rituals work? They last 1 rd/level, way to low to do hour long summoning.
Do summons last 1 hr now? Why limit # of summons if they take hours to summon?
Why not limit to 1 summon group?
Example, Summon Monster 2 brings 1d3 (I think) SM 1 group or 1 SM 2 creature.
This way they can't just all summon round/hr after hr, but still can get multiple weaker ones.

[Eldest]

I'm actually seeing a lot of overlap between the first few ideas and E6. (E6 caps at level 6, more than +2 gear is hard to get, and each magic item comsumes a fairly large amount of WBL.) The second halve, though, sounds fun. I rather like the reputation thing.

[Randomguy]

I'm not sure that D&D 3.5 is the best setting for this. After all, it is pretty much "casters edition".

Your list of allowed classes is a bit weird. Most of them are around Tier 4-Tier 3, and then there's Favoured Soul, which is tier 2. What gives? Could you not find any weaker divine casting class?

If you let monsters that have sorcerer, wizard or cleric casting keep that casting, then there might be a problem.

[wayfare]

I'm not sure that D&D 3.5 is the best setting for this. After all, it is pretty much "casters edition".

Your list of allowed classes is a bit weird. Most of them are around Tier 4-Tier 3, and then there's Favoured Soul, which is tier 2. What gives? Could you not find any weaker divine casting class?

If you let monsters that have sorcerer, wizard or cleric casting keep that casting, then there might be a problem.

I figured a Favored Soul w/o summoning shenanigans is basically Tier 3, but I am up for suggestions on that line. I am brewing up a fixed caster list Cleric and a Druid varient based on wthe same idea, w/o animal companion (that goes to the Ranger varient).

Yeah, heavy monster revision is going to be tough, but necessary. But one of my goals is going to focus more on enemies with class levels rather than monsters. Sure, vampires and abominations exist...but they are rare and often have class levels themselves (at least at higher levels).

[wayfare]

I like the Idea of a game like this. Sort of an E10 (like an extended E6) Give me a Lesser Aasimar Dread Necromancer and I would play. Perhaps with the potential to go Necropolitan, given the theme I would not go Spell-stitched; but if it is open :)

on "heroic" rules.
1a: Sounds fine, not sure what that would improve though.
1b: OK, does kind of make sense.
1c: Armor=DR if OK. I have played like that before. Works well with 1b. but why not stack it natural? It would make it more powerful, but also more logical. If your reasoning is to not be to OP that's a good mechanical argument.
1d: Logical.
1e: hmm, may be give an actual AC boost. Like +1 or +2 to the AC from 1b.

2: Not exactly sure how this would work. Sounds fine enough, but I might not be using it. Except for may be a reduction in buying things (onyx ?)

3: RP/storyline rewards. Have played with that before. It can work, IF done right.

4: That is almost a necessity given the core classes.


Questions:

Hope That is some productive input.

Thanks for the insightful post!

As for your questions:


1c: can the DR from armor be overcome by certain attacks. Logically speaking a chain shirt does little to block a hammer.

-I love systems that differentiate by damage type, but my players have found it difficult to remember what sort of damage is coming at them/which protection applies. That was actually one of my motivations behind "armor is what you make of it" design logic -- the actual design matters less than the weight of the armor.


Low magic
4: So if I would have a wand/staff. Would that simply replicate the warlock class feature? how are charges handled? if it is "like a bow" can you just buy 'recharge crystals' as 'ammo'? can there be different wands for different elemental effects?

-Here's what I figure for wands and staffs (also bows)



Ok, so bows do not add attributes to damage, instead inflicts 2 dice of damage. Here are a few

Shortbow
Damage: 2d6
Threat Range: 19-20
Multiplier: x2
Range: 75/150/300 feet

Long Bow
Damage: 2d10
Threat Range: 19-20
Multiplier: x2
Range: 125/250/500

Staffs and Wands have charges that are restored by sacrificing spell-levels to empower the weapon. A sacrificed spell restores a number of charges equal to its level. A ritual can also fully recharge a Staff or Wand, but costs 2 SP per charge restored.

Staffs and Wands inflict damage based on the highest level spell memorized:

Level 1: 2d4 damage
Level 2: 2d6 damage
Level 3: 2d8 damage
Level 4: 2d10 damage
Level 5: 2d12 damage

The difference between the two is range, size and critical power

Staff
Damage: Variable
Threat Range: 20
Multiplier: x3
Range: 125 feet

Wand
Damage: Variable
Threat Range: 19-20
Multiplier: x2
Range: 75 feet


5: what about raising undead (animate dead/etc)? How many undead would i be able to control? may be limiting the HD or the HD controllable? Or may be all undead created are not under your control and you need to rebuke them first?

Creating undead has me divided. Here are the things I am thinking:

1) Its just easier summoning, and less dangerous (unless you summon free-willed undead). So you could have 1 undead creature or 1 summon active at a time.

2) You can summon or you can have undead, but undead creatures are easier to control. You can have undead of hit dice totaling no more than your CR.

Which do you think works better?

[Invader]

The Homebrew forum might net you better results :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This sounds very similar to a homebrew attempted campaign setting that I'm still in the process of creating. Haven't updated here in a while, due to being AFK for a couple of months, but it's a similar concept.

Also, I very much like your class selection. ToB and the beguiler/DN/Warmage work well together, as well as the invocation classes. I'd suggest checking out my homebrewed invocation-based classes replacing the druid, the bard, the arcanist is designed to replace both the wizard and sorcerer... and I'm working on a new Priest base class that is set up with a Shadowcaster-esque casting progression. I'd also suggest putting Factotum on your class list.

Also, check out E6. It does a lot of what you want.

[wayfare]

This sounds very similar to a homebrew attempted campaign setting that I'm still in the process of creating. Haven't updated here in a while, due to being AFK for a couple of months, but it's a similar concept.

Also, I very much like your class selection. ToB and the beguiler/DN/Warmage work well together, as well as the invocation classes. I'd suggest checking out my homebrewed invocation-based classes replacing the druid, the bard, the arcanist is designed to replace both the wizard and sorcerer... and I'm working on a new Priest base class that is set up with a Shadowcaster-esque casting progression. I'd also suggest putting Factotum on your class list.

Also, check out E6. It does a lot of what you want.

E6 is great. This particular project is attached to a martial arts themed campaign setting that I want to retain rights to as some of my own work, so I am trying to rely on existing stuff, or self crafted home-brew.

[wayfare]

The Homebrew forum might net you better results :smallamused:

Lol, actually, I find that concept questions do better here than on the Homebrew page.